Why does it trigger people so much to say that Dante obviously ripped off Ibn Arabi? Vita Nuova = Translator of Desires

Why does it trigger people so much to say that Dante obviously ripped off Ibn Arabi?
Vita Nuova = Translator of Desires
Beatrice = Nizam
Divine Comedy = The Book of Ascension and entire chapters from The Meccan Revelations

The love poetry, the falcon metaphors, the entire structure and experience of heaven and hell are pulled right from Ibn Arabi, but it's all supposed to be a coincidence? Dante may have put Muhammad in hell, but he was definitely a secret fan of Ibn Arabi.

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  1. 1 year ago
    Anonymous

    No

  2. 1 year ago
    Anonymous

    >ripped off
    Americans should be banned from speaking about literature.
    >inb4 I'm not American
    You're spiritually American.

    • 1 year ago
      Anonymous

      Why don't you get the frick off AmericaChan and go back to scripping your DEEP THOUGHTS on paper airplanes to fly through your gay lovers windows, then, smartgay

  3. 1 year ago
    Anonymous

    Oh yeah Dante obviously made use of his time machine to copy multiple manuscripts written in a language that he couldn't read. That's a known fact

    • 1 year ago
      Anonymous

      He was very much interested in Arabic culture and those around him knew Arabic and were translating miraj narratives.

      >ripped off
      Americans should be banned from speaking about literature.
      >inb4 I'm not American
      You're spiritually American.

      If that helps you sleep at night. The parallels are so obvious it's very desperate to pretend it's all a coincidence.

      • 1 year ago
        Anonymous

        Actually focus upon the part of your post that I took issue with.

        • 1 year ago
          Anonymous

          >boo hoo you said my trigger word now I'm gonna call you a name

          Grow up.

    • 1 year ago
      Anonymous

      Technically there existed translations but the idea of him reading it and being influenced by it requires so much conjecture to be true as to be very much of a stretch (especially when you consider how low of an opinion he seems to have about islam in the Comedy, and sufism doesn't even appear in any real sense). Like most things of this sort, it's a combination of recycled protestant and enlightenment era stereotypes about catholicism and the middle ages, orientalist phantasmagories, and current day self-hating europeans and third worlders anxious about their cultural inferiority trying to elbow their way into the western tradition for the sake of cultural prestige (even though they claim to hate western civilization)

      • 1 year ago
        Anonymous

        >by it requires so much conjecture to be true as to be very much of a stretch

        Bruno Latini, his teacher. Really not that difficult.

        • 1 year ago
          Anonymous

          Even if that's true (and I don't trust Menocal about this to begin with), that's still nowhere near enough. What you're trying to argue sounds like a literary equivalent of "Dante committed a murder, and his master had a knife, therefore, he committed it with his master's knife".

          • 1 year ago
            Anonymous

            No, not at all. He was around all the right people to have known about miraj narratives and Ibn Arabi and then you just look at Dante's work and see the glaring parallels.

          • 1 year ago
            Anonymous

            If you don't see the faults with that methodology then I'm not exactly sure you're really the kind of person who should take part in a discussion about this.

          • 1 year ago
            Anonymous

            So according to you it's all coincidence? Every duplicate metaphor and structural parallel is pure coincidence.

          • 1 year ago
            Anonymous

            What faults? He's pointing out something that is easily possible, even if we don't have explicit evidence for it (which would not really be surprising). If anything, to me, it's weird how desperately you want to reject the idea rather than simply remain agnostic about the possibility.

            >make more than questionnable false equivalence between several terms
            >assert out of the blue that it is due to immediate influence
            >provide zero evidence, it's all about "making sense"
            >ignore all evidence to the contrary
            >go into a completely antiscientific self affirming loop of affirming parallels and denying differences
            >claim whatever difference there may be are secondary and any similarity essential, usually against all serious exegesis
            >deflect to grandstanding about open mindedness (or just "you mad bro") when people get annoyed at your moronation
            Even just on IQfy we had the same moronic non-argument 10-15 years ago about that Zeitgeist documentary.

          • 1 year ago
            Anonymous

            Can you be more dishonest? Why so upset? How deeply have you invested into Dante for you to knee-jerk like this?

          • 1 year ago
            Anonymous

            What faults? He's pointing out something that is easily possible, even if we don't have explicit evidence for it (which would not really be surprising). If anything, to me, it's weird how desperately you want to reject the idea rather than simply remain agnostic about the possibility.

          • 1 year ago
            Anonymous

            >well how about this teapot floating around in space, can you deny its existence? I've been told that it had quite the influence on the courses of the planets.

          • 1 year ago
            Anonymous

            Creating an obviously absurd false equivalence does not help your case, anon.

          • 1 year ago
            Anonymous

            >maybe if I keep browbeating him he'll just accept my conjecture as fact

          • 1 year ago
            Anonymous

            I'm not even that anon, I'm merely here to get an insight into the discussion. From my perspective, you are very hostile and offensive compared to the other anon, which simply makes me suspicious of your motives.

  4. 1 year ago
    Anonymous

    >recent studies show that WEST is LE BAD and ARABS are LE GOOD
    >and that's why ~~*as a white person*~~ I believe it's a good thing that we give free money to these goatfrickers while you pay 3x the amount of taxes so they may outbreed you quickly and efficiently! :^)

    • 1 year ago
      Anonymous

      Another very triggered cope. This isn't about saying Islam is good and white people are evil. But it's so clear if you chose not to ignore it that Ibn Arabi is a major influence on Dante. Dante included some arab theologians he admired, but I guess listing Ibn Arabi would have let the cat out of the bag.

      • 1 year ago
        Anonymous

        Every single "new find" since 2005 is anti-white propaganda.

        • 1 year ago
          Anonymous

          You'd be surprised to learn how much of it is just recycled orientalist scholarship from more than a century ago. Like take Reinhart Dozy, who claimed al-andalus had a 96% literacy rate in the middle ages, and thought that the troubadour movement started because the successful crusade of barbastro resulted in 3000 (!) andalusi singer girls being captured and taken off into european courts. Even the pro-influence guys of current day, like Dwight F. Reynolds consider him to be comically uncritical.

        • 1 year ago
          Anonymous

          >Dante
          >White
          You have a surprise coming, off-white bro

          • 1 year ago
            Anonymous

            kys

    • 1 year ago
      Anonymous

      There arent even arab migrants?
      just nafris and afghans

      • 1 year ago
        Anonymous

        Never been to Australia have you.

      • 1 year ago
        Anonymous

        There have been 9.2 million refugees from Iraq alone you mouthbreathing tard

    • 1 year ago
      Anonymous

      >it's a good thing that we give free money to these goatfrickers while you pay 3x the amount of taxes so they may outbreed you quickly and efficiently! :^)
      literally never happened

  5. 1 year ago
    Anonymous

    Thanks for the tip. Sounds like one of the more interesting and profound cases of anxiety of influence.

  6. 1 year ago
    Anonymous

    Not even the guy you're ripping this idea from (Miguel Asín Palacios) believes in this hypothesis without reservations.

    • 1 year ago
      Anonymous

      Sort of. He's quite emphatic that the entire cosmology is the same, but he balances it by saying that Ibn Arabi himself was influenced by Christian theologians which is true enough. His hypothesis has only been confirmed by more recent work showing the very real possibilities of Dante becoming acquainted, at least second hand, with Ibn Arabi's work.

      • 1 year ago
        Anonymous

        >His hypothesis has only been confirmed by more recent work showing the very real possibilities of Dante becoming acquainted, at least second hand, with Ibn Arabi's work.

        Are you thinking of Menocal's idea about this? Last time I heard, she only believed that there was a copy of the libera scala mahometi in the circle of Dante, but even she, the hermeneutical maximalist that she is, didn't claim to know whether Dante actually had a copy and read it.

  7. 1 year ago
    Anonymous

    The frick did you just say? I’ll fight you

    • 1 year ago
      Anonymous

      >IQfy in a nutshell

      • 1 year ago
        Anonymous

        These limp wristed cucks here are too scared to risk even a scratch

  8. 1 year ago
    Anonymous

    Westoids seethe whenever anyone raises the possibility that maybe things didn't happen according to their autistic schedule of how history is meant to be

  9. 1 year ago
    Anonymous

    Just look at what they both wrote.

    Ibn Arabi writes a collection of short poems about his love to a young woman Nizam, but is also an allegory for divine love: The Translator of Desires. Then Ibn Arabi writes a more philosophic commentary on it explaining how it's actually not just about sex. Dante then writes Vita Nuova and something of a more philosophical commentary expounding on its themes in The Convivio (lady philosophy replaces Beatrice).

    Then you have The Divine Comedy where Dante goes through hell, heaven, and purgatory in a structure very similar to Ibn Arabi's ascension narratives where he observes hell, goes up to heaven and meets all the various prophets.

    It's there. Why deny it? It comes off as so desperate. I'm not Muslim and don't care about Islam, but the parallels are too obvious to deny.

    • 1 year ago
      Anonymous

      >Ibn Arabi writes a collection of short poems about his love to a young woman Nizam, but is also an allegory for divine love: The Translator of Desires. Then Ibn Arabi writes a more philosophic commentary on it explaining how it's actually not just about sex. Dante then writes Vita Nuova and something of a more philosophical commentary expounding on its themes in The Convivio (lady philosophy replaces Beatrice).
      You mean like, mmmhhh, let's see, the Song of Songs? Origen? saint Bernard? You know, people that Dante actually read.
      It's totally improbable that Dante would have been influence by that if anything, must be ibn-Arabi.
      Jesus Christ, what I even reading?

      • 1 year ago
        Anonymous

        The parallels are greater with Ibn Arabi then St Bernard or Song of Songs. There is no literal female figure in them, whereas for Ibn Arabi and Dante there is, Nizam and Beatrice. These are women they actually met.

        • 1 year ago
          Anonymous

          Not that anon, but don't you think that would be much easier to explain as the result of Dante's fondness for troubadour poets (like Arnaut Daniel)? Unless you're the type to argue that troubadour poetry and the Frederick's sicilian school was also actually islamic in origin by way of an equally convoluted path of transmission.

          • 1 year ago
            Anonymous

            It's not as striking to me but I'm not denying the Troubadour influence. Beatrice = Nizam. How do you wave that away? How do you wave away the structural similarities in their depictions of the circles of heaven and hell?

          • 1 year ago
            Anonymous

            Are you muslim (or a traditionalist) by any chance? You definitely argue like one.

          • 1 year ago
            Anonymous

            Did you read my posts?
            See

            >rather than thinking that the islamic tradition just sprang into existence ex nihilo and went on to influence literally every other incarnation of this archetype.

            Nobody here is saying that and it's weird that everything thinks if you admit Ibn Arabi's influence on Dante you have to convert to Islam. I certainly haven't. And yes, Arda Viraf is probably the ur-ascension narrative afaik, but Muslims will play on the ambiguity around the dating and say it came after.

          • 1 year ago
            Anonymous

            Because ibn arabi its not Muhammad. If you want the non gay version of the story

    • 1 year ago
      Anonymous

      >Then you have The Divine Comedy where Dante goes through hell, heaven, and purgatory in a structure very similar to Ibn Arabi's ascension narratives where he observes hell, goes up to heaven and meets all the various prophets.

      Otherworldly journeys/visionary literature have been a thing in the european tradition since the early middle ages, it's one of the earliest genres to develop in fact. Walafrid of Strabo, Saint Patrick's purgatory, the irish imramma tales, the visio tnugdali (one of, if not the most widely translated works of literature in medieval europe), not to mention the allegorical tradition that was at its apex right before Dante's time (just think of the Roman de la rose).

      Considering that there were also zoroastrian examples of this genre, such as the book of arda viraf, it would be much more sensible to argue that the islamic traditions descend from preexisting middle eastern tales of this kind and are at best cousins with the european tradition rather than thinking that the islamic tradition just sprang into existence ex nihilo and went on to influence literally every other incarnation of this archetype.

      • 1 year ago
        Anonymous

        >rather than thinking that the islamic tradition just sprang into existence ex nihilo and went on to influence literally every other incarnation of this archetype.

        Nobody here is saying that and it's weird that everything thinks if you admit Ibn Arabi's influence on Dante you have to convert to Islam. I certainly haven't. And yes, Arda Viraf is probably the ur-ascension narrative afaik, but Muslims will play on the ambiguity around the dating and say it came after.

      • 1 year ago
        Anonymous

        I googled, and literaly every work u mentioned camed after Prophet Muhammad (sws) ascension. It means that every artist who came after get inspired by the the only one true story

    • 1 year ago
      Anonymous

      Because there’s no evidence he actually read Ibn Arabi

  10. 1 year ago
    Anonymous

    They were both trash.

  11. 1 year ago
    Anonymous

    I fricking hate arabs but this may be true, is Meccan Revelations a gud book?

  12. 1 year ago
    Dago

    8th circle of hell with Ali
    Frick off

    • 1 year ago
      Anonymous

      >Ali
      what did he ever do to Dante

      • 1 year ago
        Anonymous

        Ali single handly created the biggest fifth column ever, the muslim scia sect, witch acts like a garancy and a pinch move bellic force for winning againsy christendom in the last war

        • 1 year ago
          Anonymous

          >witch acts like a garancy and a pinch move bellic force for winning againsy christendom in the last war
          can you repeat that in english

  13. 1 year ago
    Anonymous

    Because Dante is a sacred cow to the tradcath larpers on this board

    • 1 year ago
      Anonymous

      Its just famous bwcause he invented the italian lenguage (a modernized latin)

      Its like Da vinci Gioconda. Its famous only for historical rewsons, but its artisticaly mediocre

  14. 1 year ago
    Anonymous

    >Why does it trigger people so much to say that Dante obviously ripped off Ibn Arabi?
    Literally never happened
    Papè Satan, Papè Satan aleppe!

    • 1 year ago
      Anonymous

      8th circle of hell with Ali
      Frick off

      Is that why he hated Saladin, Averroes and Avicenna? Oh wait, he loved them.

  15. 1 year ago
    Anonymous

    Wait a minute did the bible or the koran come first?

    • 1 year ago
      Anonymous

      Ideologically? The bible. Historically? The Koran

      Also the bible didnt have an outhewordly journey

  16. 1 year ago
    Anonymous

    >Why does it trigger people so much to say that Dante obviously ripped off Ibn Arabi?
    Does it really? Everyone that has
    studied Dante is well aware of the fact, there are whole books written on the subject.

  17. 1 year ago
    Anonymous

    >doesnt understand the importance of referencing literary lineage in adding meaning to poetic works.
    never going to make it.

  18. 1 year ago
    Anonymous

    This server is dedicated to abrahamic mysticism in its judaic, christian and islamic forms. Even though theology is relevant, this server is not for theological debates.
    https://discord.gg/HdMPzKQ2

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