Why do they vehemently deny MENA migrations/inter-mixing and even contributions to ancient Greece and Rome and want to sugarcoat it by calling it “east med” and ascribing it to Anatolian "Greeks" ?
We have plenty of J haplogroups found in Imperial Rome and even E-m35 and Natufian autosomal admixture
Even Lazaridis is sensitive about it too in the latest paper and the 2017 Minoan one
Beware Cat Shirt $21.68 |
Beware Cat Shirt $21.68 |
because shills where pushing for this meme since the 1800s. With each new genetic paper the scenario becomes less and less likely, for now the southern arc paper speaks specifically of (greek) Anatolians
>southern arc paper
Lazaridis himself is a shill who is obsessed with “disproving” any nordic or mena-ness in his papers
The people modeled with anatolian “greeks” could also be modeled with mena. same components (anatolian farmer + chg/irn_n + natufian)
Isn't he a Pontic Greek himself?
AKA a MENAer LARPing as Gayreek
the nordic/mena angle is precisesly the ahistorical shill take, I think in a couple of years there will be plenty of samples and up to now it doesn't look too good for those who pushed these dispalcement theories
It looks too good actually
Latest greek samples have a lot of natufian and we all know the massive replacement that occurred in imperial rome
ok, see you in a couple of years
Explain
>We have plenty of J haplogroups found in Imperial Rome and even E-m35 and Natufian autosomal admixture
Imperial "Romans" were slaves. They managed to pass their Natufian genes with their pussies. It's like Amerindians talking pride in Spanish conquistadores.
>MENA J
The y-dna haplogroups of post Imperial and Medieval Italians from the Etruscan study (the only one which uses modern Y-dna nomeclature). There is only one medieval Tuscan male with a levantine haplogroup J1e out of 43 Italian males. The "East Med" shift was clearly nearly 100% female mediated.
>In B4, J/E is MENA.
Not really as we have Bronze and Iron Age samples from the Balkans and Greece with those haplogroups and those people were absorbed early on by Romans in after the conquest of Magna Graecia and the historical Daunian territory.
So to make it simple:
>J2a1 Greek
>J2b Daunian/Balkan/Etruscan
>E1b1b1a1b1 (E-v13) Balkan
>G2a2b2a Etruscan
Sample ID Y-chr Haplogroup
CAM001 R1b1a1b1a1a2
CAM002 G2a2b2a1
CAM003 G2a2b2a1a1b
CSN003 R1b1a1b1a1a2d1a
CSN004 J2b2a1
CSN005 R1b1a1b1a1a2
CSN006 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1
CSN009 R1b1a1b1a1a2
CSN010 R1b1a1b1a1a2d1a
ETR003 R1b1a1b1a
ETR014 J1a2a1a2
ETR016 I1
MAG001 R1b1a1b1a1a
MAS001 G2a2b2a1a1c1a1
MAS002 R1b1a1b1b
MAS003 R1b1a1b
MAS004 R1b1a1b1a1
POP001 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1
PRZ002 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1
TAQ002 R1b1a1b1a1a2
TAQ004 R1b1a1b1a1a2b
TAQ005 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1
TAQ006 G2a2b2a1a1b1
TAQ009 I1a2a1a1a1a
TAQ010 R1b1a1b1a1a2
TAQ013 R1b1a1b1a1a1
TAQ017 R1b1a1b1a
TAQ018 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1
TAQ020 J2a1a1a2
TAQ021 J2a1a1a2b1b
TAQ023 G2a2b2a1a1c1a1
TAQ024 R1b1a1b1a2
UDC_P R1b1a1b1a1a2
VEN001 J2a1a1a2b2a2b3a
VEN006 J2b2a1
VEN008 E1b1b1a1b1
VEN010 J2b
VEN012 G2a2b2a1
VEN013 J2b2a1
VEN022 G2a2b2a
VET002 G2a2b2b1a1a
VEU001 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1
VOL001 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1
>In B4, J/E is MENA.
Yes. These markers entered Europe through MENA men.
Sure Ahmed. Meanwhile pure Europeans with y-dna haplogroup J (sister clade of European haplogroup I) and zero basal Eurasian autosomal DNA raped basal Eurasian MENA women resulting in producing west Asian Mulattos.
>Unexpectedly, a member of haplogroup J1-M267 is found among eastern hunter-gatherers from Karelia, Northeast Europe living~8.3 kya67.
Many Italians have E haplogroup
There is an anthrogenica user with egyptian E-v12*
Cope, you were raped hard
haplogroup E in italy and greece is 95%+ e-v13, it's from the balkans
E-V13 is African.
anon, e-v13 developed in europe from e-l618 already in europe, it came to italy through the balkans, end of the argument
i'm not that guy, i'm not even denying west asian admixture in italy and the balkans during the imperial era, but e-v13 is not due to "mena migrations"
E-V13 is a subclade of E-CTS10912, it's an African haplogroup that was introduced in Europe by Black men.
last (you)
e-v13 was in europe since the early iron age AT LEAST, we now have samples from the early iron age with e-v13 and we will keep finding others
blacks don't carry e-v13 but totally different clades
we now have balkan samples from the early iron age with e-v13, many and with obviously 0 african admixture
in the case of italy specifically it came after the roman empire, and the only ones that could have brought it were people that carried it after the roman empire, aka balkaners
>italians carry Black DNA
No wonder they look so brown.
Moroccans like you are closer to Black folks than to Italians. LooooL
>literally shows subcaldes of e in the balkans and italy completely separated from the ones in africa
are you okay anon?
Hey moron, haplogroups are sorted in order of how old they are. Haplogroup A is the oldest for example and we all are descended from it. SO haplogroup E(VERY OLD) developed before black and white people were a thing. Its like saying ur a chink cuz u have r1
It ultimately came from africa in the chalcolithic
it came to europe from anatolia during the early neolithic
we have pure anatolian farmers with e-l618 in the balkans from bulgaria and croatia
Dude e-m35 is north african in origin
There is no way around it
we don't know but this wouldn't change that it was present in europe since the early neolithic in the balkans with pure anatolian farmers and it came to europe from anatolia
E-V13 has never been found in Neolithic Anatolia and Neolithic Europe. Its direct ancestor was carried by charcoal black Iberomaurusians tho. Italians are part black.
>Loosdrecht et al. (2018) analysed genome-wide data from seven ancient individuals from the Iberomaurusian Grotte des Pigeons site near Taforalt in north-eastern Morocco. The fossils were directly dated to between 15,100 and 13,900 calibrated years before present. The scientists found that all males belonged to haplogroup E1b1b, common among Afroasiatic males. The male specimens with sufficient nuclear DNA preservation belonged to the paternal haplogroup E1b1b1a1 (M78), with one skeleton bearing the E1b1b1a1b1 parent lineage to E-V13, one male specimen belonged to E1b1b (M215*).
Debunked millions of times. Wait untill the other Italian post the correct subclades from the Martiniano study, Moroccans quadroon.
Martiniano et al. isn't a peer-reviewed study.
>Moroccans quadroon
t. angry mesolithic moroccan quadroon
>Martiniano et al. isn't a peer-reviewed study
Sure Quadroon. The Martiniano paper is peer-reviewed in famous scientific papers.
Forgot link
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.12.19.423614v1
it doesn't say anywhere that it's not peer reviewed
on the other hand it has been published on molecular biology and evolution, os it's pretty much confirmed
>Now published in Molecular Biology and Evolution
LOOOOL
martiniano et al 2020 is peer-reviewed and is a study made on purpose to take older samples and give them a better clade
>t. angry mesolithic moroccan quadroon
jesus it's always you moroccan in these kinds of threads always, ALWAYS
moroccans are quadroons because they have black and massive taforalt admixture
>E-V13 has never been found in Neolithic Anatolia and Neolithic Europe. Its direct ancestor was carried by charcoal black Iberomaurusians tho. Italians are part black.
italians and balkaners have zero black admixture, you can have e-m2, if you don't have black admixture you are not part black
another thread same shit
it has been reassigned as e-m78 in martiniano et al 2020
>E-V13 has never been found in Neolithic Anatolia and Neolithic Europe
because it didn't exist, it has been found in early iron age europe, and it descends from e-l618 already in europe since thousands of years
E-V13 formed in 6000 BC, if it originated in Neolithic Anatolia it would've found a long time ago considering how many samples we have from this period.
Again Martiniano et al. 2020 isn't a reliable source.
>Again Martiniano et al. 2020 isn't a reliable source
Holy Moroccan quadroon cope. Dude don't make me post autosomal and haplogroup DNA result from Tunisian Punics. You won't like that.
You mean the Greek slaves from Kerkouane? Even your own study admit that they were Greek.
Shifting the goalposts won't change the fact that you are descended from Mesolithic mulattoes btw. Picrel is how E-V13 was introduced in Europe.
italians have no black admixture while moroccans do, even if e-v13 was introduced from africans it wouldn't change that autosomally italians are not even remotely as african as moroccans
but e-v13 developed in europe and was brought in italy by people that actually carried it, aka balkaners at the time
and balkaners got it from eef from the balkans with e-l618 that got it from anatolian farmers
>e-v13 developed in europe
E-v13 is a clade of E-m35 which
Anyone in europe carrying e-m35 is ultimately african rapebaby including the balkan roman emperors, hitler and napoleon
>E-v13 is a clade of E-m35 which
everything is a clade of A hence everyone is an african rapebaby if you go back enough tens of thousands of years
it doesn't change that e-l618 entered europe in the neolithic from anatolia with eefs, mutated in europe into e-v13, and spread outside the balkans from the balkans
A is a whole different haplogroup
E-v13 is just a branch of E-m35 like e-v22, etc so brothers and cousins
>A is a whole different haplogroup
haplogroups are just subclades of other haplogroups, after many mutations(subclades) they give it another letter
E is a subclade of DE, DE is a subclade of CT and so on
>E-v13 is just a branch of E-m35 like e-v22, etc so brothers and cousins
e-v13 is a branch of e-l618 that entered europe from anatolia with populations that already have zero north african or black admixture
it's a lost battle dude, we found e-v13 samples in early iron age eastern europe, they came to italy from there
holy frick ur stupid huh?
Italians definitely have black admixture. According to the newest studies they are 50% Black 20% Arab:
>Our distal modeling of modern Sicilians requires not only the two eastern ancestry sources that we have shown were present by the Bronze Age—10.0 ± 2.6% Yamnaya_Samara and 19.9 ± 1.4% Iran_Ganj_Dareh_Neolithic— but also a predominant component of North African ancestry (46.9 ± 5.6% Morocco_LN) (Fig. 4, Supplementary Table 14). These results are consistent with most of the North African-related ancestry having come into Sicily in the Iron Age and afterward, a scenario that is further supported by our observation that modern Sicilians form a clade with Ibiza_Phoenician (p=0.060) and the three most recent Sardinian individuals in our time series (Supplementary Materials). Although these results are consistent in principle with a nearly complete ancestry turnover on the island since the Bronze Age.
>Italians definitely have black admixture. According to the newest studies they are 50% Black 20% Arab:
that's a shit model morocco_ln doesn't represent any population and it's not "black admixture"
pic related searches for literal black (in red in pic related) admixture and taforalt admixture (yellow in pic related) as you can see italy is devoid of both and there's only some 2% taforalt in sicily
another thread same shit waiting to be btfod in the same way
This model is perfectly fine. Here's another study where Southern Italians are modeled as 20 to 35% Afro-Levantine.
>Southern European populations have a high proportion (5–35%) of joint Near Eastern | North African ancestry assigned at k = 4.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1306223110
>This model is perfectly fine.
no it's not, it doesn't represent any population and when actually searching for black and taforalt admixture there's zero in italy except some 2% taforalt in sicily, so about 0-1% black in sicily once you consider the black in taforalt
>Here's another study where Southern Italians are modeled as 20 to 35% Afro-Levantine.
here's another distortion of facts
once the "afro levantine" is actually differentiated between north african and levantine in k=5 and k=6 italians have zero north african (orange) in that model
thank you for posting a model that shows italians with zero north africans
i won't even explain to you that the blue is swedish so modeling italians as swedish+middle east+north africa is going to inflate the middle easterner hence why germans result as part middle easterner there, but it still shows almost no north africa despite that so it destroys your argument anyway
That poster is the Argentinian indio mutt from IQfy
this one yes but there was also the "moroccan arab" early in the thread
tfw Modern "Italians" are blacker than the Carthaginians
>All six individuals from the Punic Villamar site were inferred to have substantial levels of ancient North-African ancestry (point estimates ranging 20–35%, Supp. Fig. 14, also see ADMIXTURE and PCA results, Figs. Figs.22 and and4).4). When fit with the same five-way admixture model, present-day Sardinians have a small but detectable level of North-African ancestry (Supp. Fig. 14, also see ADMIXTURE analysis, Fig. 4).
what kind of anti science bullshit are you peddling?
this is the admixture models from the study that this quote refers to, the green (taforalt) is literally almost zero in sicily
If you have a problem with this study, feel free to email the geneticists who worked on it lol.
>this is the admixture models
This is a qpAdm model. This tool is far more reliable than Admixture BTW.
>If you have a problem with this study, feel free to email the geneticists who worked on it lol.
i don't have a problem with it, can you read? it models sicilians with extremely little taforalt
it supports me, not you
>This is a qpAdm model. This tool is far more reliable than Admixture BTW.
this model is from the same study from which that quote comes from
and so is this pca where you can see sicilians with 0 shift towards north west africa
Read again. Punic Villamar is 20-35% North African according to this study and Sicilians are 50% North African according to another study that uses almost the same model.
>and so is this pca where you can see sicilians with 0 shift towards north west africa
Are you blind? They are clearly African shifted compared to Real Europeans (Swedes, French, English).
>Punic Villamar is 20-35% North African according to this study
and sicilians have extremely little north african according to this same study you are quoting
, the green there is iberomaurusian
so the same study you are quoting is btfoing you, why is this so difficult to understand
>Sicilians are 50% North African according to another study that uses almost the same model.
that model is complete garbage and morocco_ln doesn't represent any population, the taforalt admixture according to the study about sardinia that you quoted
is extremely little
>Are you blind? They are clearly African shifted compared to Real Europeans (Swedes, French, English).
they are not, SIC is not shifted towards algeria, tunisia and morocco compared to other europeans
those 5 villamar samples instead are, they are much closer to north africans than anyone else in europe
last you, you are baiting at this point, i don't believe you can be this fricking stupid
>and sicilians have extremely little north african according to this same study you are quoting
If you consider 50% to be "extremely little" sure.
>that model is complete garbage and morocco_ln doesn't represent any population, the taforalt admixture according to the study about sardinia that you quoted
what kind of anti science bullshit are you peddling?
this is the admixture models from the study that this quote refers to, the green (taforalt) is literally almost zero in sicily is extremely little
Morocco_LN is the core ancestry of Modern North Africans. As for Taforalt, they are an extremely old mulatto population akin to horners, they didn't directly contribute to any modern populations.
>SIC is not shifted towards algeria, tunisia and morocco compared to other europeans
PCA are useless for mixed populations like Sicilians and Italians. Although Italians have more African ancestry than Villamar they also have East Asian (ANE) ancestry which makes them plot apart from other Africans.
this is literally the last reply to this folly and than i leave you to cannibalize yourself for good
>If you consider 50% to be "extremely little" sure.
that's a garbage model that doesn't represent any population, when modeled with actual taforalt and proper populations sicilians have almost none, that model you are referring to
from the study(pic related because you don't seem to understand this simple fact) that you are talking about gives villamar a lot more north african than it gives to sicilians, sardinians or any italians (that green in that model)
that pca
that is extremely valid it doesn't matter how much it makes you angry, from the same study too shows a lot more shift towards africa in those 5 villamar samples (that the quote was referring to) that than sicilians that have almost zero shift towards africa because they have almost no north african admixture
also pic related, when you see the full quote, with north african it means morocco_en/tafororalt
this study literally btfo you
do you understand, this study models sicilians with extremely little taforalt, like it doesn't agree with you i don't know how it tell you this anymore
and now that everyone has seen what a dumb moroccan quadroon you are, argue alone
Why do you stupid homosexuals keep giving (you)s to this maroccan animal
>Again Martiniano et al. 2020 isn't a reliable source.
martiniano et al 2020 is a perfectly reliable source, it's literally specialized in taking older samples and giving them a better clade
it has been peer reviewed and has been published on Molecular Biology and Evolution
there is no better sources than that
you really have to give up the cope
you refuse to understand how haplogorups work
e-v13 came to italy after the roman empire, and the only people that carried it after the roman empire were balkaners, only they could have brought e-v13 to italy, it's this simple
e-v13 was already in the balkans in the early iron age and probably somewhat before that and it developed from pure eef from the balkans carrying e-l618
anything else is a fantasy
Haplogroup E has been found in Mesolitich Anatolians/Levantines with zero SubSaharan African admixture. It will be shock for you when they finally test neolitich and mesolitich Africans, and confirm that modern "Blacks" are just Mulattos of West Eurasian males and whatever female hominid lived in Congo/Sudan.
don't get baited by these animals
>Imperial "Romans" were slaves.
COPE. MENA-derived Roman samples were buried in luxurious sarcophagi in the wealthy areas of Rome. Furthermore they did not have any European ancestry so Italians are definitely not related to them.
>Imperial Rome individuals from QCP suggest a certain degree of similarity with North African and Middle Eastern individuals. Specifically, QCP43 is placed among present-day Israelis and Jordanians, while QCP29, QCP39, QCP40, and QCP42 fall in the North African cluster. QCP27 and QCP37 lie in an intermediate position between the North Africans and the Eastern Mediterranean people (Supplementary Figure 1).
>A cistern probably supplied several fountains: these interpretations suggest the area was devoted to leisure rather than a productive site. Consistently, the recovering of luxury pottery items connects the site to wealthy people (Musco et al. 2011).
Daily reminder nordcels and amerimutts were convinced that genetic studies would reveal Mycenean elites to be some Scandinavian high steppe wet fantasy, and it turned out that the highest and honorable King ever found at the Homeric Kingdom of sandy Pylos had literally NO steppe. A bunch of these threads anti med threads have popped up as a cope response to them and their delusions being irrefutably BTFO
EEF were mostly WHG but were paternally descended from an Iranian-like polulation from Anatolia. MENA was a result of back-migrations from the Levant. I don't know why you think Meds are North Africans?
>EEF were mostly WHG
Pretty sure they were mostly Anatolian Hunter Gatherer
>Italians do not have direct Taforalt ancestry, they received their black genes through Morocco_LN. Italians are 50%
they aren't that was a shit model using a population that doesn't represent any population
here
is a model that actually searches for taforalt admixture
0 in italians, 2% in sicily, end of the argument, the taforalt is 2% in sicily according to models that actually search for taforalt admixture
you don't need to speculate about the taforalt admixture when we have already models with taforalt admixture
>The second study I posted basically say the same.
it doesn't at all, it literally gives italians almost zero (orange) admixture, and that orange admixture is modern tunisians hence the taforalt is even less than that orange admixture
>Swedish ancestry peaks among Yorruba?
the dark blue of course