Why do they vehemently deny MENA migrations/inter-mixing and even contributions to ancient Greece and Rome and want to sugarcoat it by calling it e...

Why do they vehemently deny MENA migrations/inter-mixing and even contributions to ancient Greece and Rome and want to sugarcoat it by calling it “east med” and ascribing it to Anatolian "Greeks" ?
We have plenty of J haplogroups found in Imperial Rome and even E-m35 and Natufian autosomal admixture
Even Lazaridis is sensitive about it too in the latest paper and the 2017 Minoan one

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  1. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    because shills where pushing for this meme since the 1800s. With each new genetic paper the scenario becomes less and less likely, for now the southern arc paper speaks specifically of (greek) Anatolians

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      >southern arc paper
      Lazaridis himself is a shill who is obsessed with “disproving” any nordic or mena-ness in his papers
      The people modeled with anatolian “greeks” could also be modeled with mena. same components (anatolian farmer + chg/irn_n + natufian)

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        Isn't he a Pontic Greek himself?
        AKA a MENAer LARPing as Gayreek

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        the nordic/mena angle is precisesly the ahistorical shill take, I think in a couple of years there will be plenty of samples and up to now it doesn't look too good for those who pushed these dispalcement theories

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          It looks too good actually
          Latest greek samples have a lot of natufian and we all know the massive replacement that occurred in imperial rome

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            ok, see you in a couple of years

  2. 2 years ago
    Anonymous
    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      Explain

  3. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    >We have plenty of J haplogroups found in Imperial Rome and even E-m35 and Natufian autosomal admixture

    Imperial "Romans" were slaves. They managed to pass their Natufian genes with their pussies. It's like Amerindians talking pride in Spanish conquistadores.

    >MENA J

    The y-dna haplogroups of post Imperial and Medieval Italians from the Etruscan study (the only one which uses modern Y-dna nomeclature). There is only one medieval Tuscan male with a levantine haplogroup J1e out of 43 Italian males. The "East Med" shift was clearly nearly 100% female mediated.

    >In B4, J/E is MENA.

    Not really as we have Bronze and Iron Age samples from the Balkans and Greece with those haplogroups and those people were absorbed early on by Romans in after the conquest of Magna Graecia and the historical Daunian territory.

    So to make it simple:

    >J2a1 Greek
    >J2b Daunian/Balkan/Etruscan
    >E1b1b1a1b1 (E-v13) Balkan
    >G2a2b2a Etruscan

    Sample ID Y-chr Haplogroup
    CAM001 R1b1a1b1a1a2
    CAM002 G2a2b2a1
    CAM003 G2a2b2a1a1b
    CSN003 R1b1a1b1a1a2d1a
    CSN004 J2b2a1
    CSN005 R1b1a1b1a1a2
    CSN006 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1
    CSN009 R1b1a1b1a1a2
    CSN010 R1b1a1b1a1a2d1a
    ETR003 R1b1a1b1a
    ETR014 J1a2a1a2
    ETR016 I1
    MAG001 R1b1a1b1a1a
    MAS001 G2a2b2a1a1c1a1
    MAS002 R1b1a1b1b
    MAS003 R1b1a1b
    MAS004 R1b1a1b1a1
    POP001 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1
    PRZ002 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1
    TAQ002 R1b1a1b1a1a2
    TAQ004 R1b1a1b1a1a2b
    TAQ005 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1
    TAQ006 G2a2b2a1a1b1
    TAQ009 I1a2a1a1a1a
    TAQ010 R1b1a1b1a1a2
    TAQ013 R1b1a1b1a1a1
    TAQ017 R1b1a1b1a
    TAQ018 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1
    TAQ020 J2a1a1a2
    TAQ021 J2a1a1a2b1b
    TAQ023 G2a2b2a1a1c1a1
    TAQ024 R1b1a1b1a2
    UDC_P R1b1a1b1a1a2
    VEN001 J2a1a1a2b2a2b3a
    VEN006 J2b2a1
    VEN008 E1b1b1a1b1
    VEN010 J2b
    VEN012 G2a2b2a1
    VEN013 J2b2a1
    VEN022 G2a2b2a
    VET002 G2a2b2b1a1a
    VEU001 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1
    VOL001 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      >In B4, J/E is MENA.
      Yes. These markers entered Europe through MENA men.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        Sure Ahmed. Meanwhile pure Europeans with y-dna haplogroup J (sister clade of European haplogroup I) and zero basal Eurasian autosomal DNA raped basal Eurasian MENA women resulting in producing west Asian Mulattos.

        >Unexpectedly, a member of haplogroup J1-M267 is found among eastern hunter-gatherers from Karelia, Northeast Europe living~8.3 kya67.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      Many Italians have E haplogroup
      There is an anthrogenica user with egyptian E-v12*
      Cope, you were raped hard

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        haplogroup E in italy and greece is 95%+ e-v13, it's from the balkans

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          E-V13 is African.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            anon, e-v13 developed in europe from e-l618 already in europe, it came to italy through the balkans, end of the argument
            i'm not that guy, i'm not even denying west asian admixture in italy and the balkans during the imperial era, but e-v13 is not due to "mena migrations"

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            E-V13 is a subclade of E-CTS10912, it's an African haplogroup that was introduced in Europe by Black men.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            last (you)
            e-v13 was in europe since the early iron age AT LEAST, we now have samples from the early iron age with e-v13 and we will keep finding others
            blacks don't carry e-v13 but totally different clades

            we now have balkan samples from the early iron age with e-v13, many and with obviously 0 african admixture
            in the case of italy specifically it came after the roman empire, and the only ones that could have brought it were people that carried it after the roman empire, aka balkaners

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >italians carry Black DNA
            No wonder they look so brown.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Moroccans like you are closer to Black folks than to Italians. LooooL

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >literally shows subcaldes of e in the balkans and italy completely separated from the ones in africa
            are you okay anon?

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Hey moron, haplogroups are sorted in order of how old they are. Haplogroup A is the oldest for example and we all are descended from it. SO haplogroup E(VERY OLD) developed before black and white people were a thing. Its like saying ur a chink cuz u have r1

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            It ultimately came from africa in the chalcolithic

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            it came to europe from anatolia during the early neolithic
            we have pure anatolian farmers with e-l618 in the balkans from bulgaria and croatia

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Dude e-m35 is north african in origin
            There is no way around it

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            we don't know but this wouldn't change that it was present in europe since the early neolithic in the balkans with pure anatolian farmers and it came to europe from anatolia

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            E-V13 has never been found in Neolithic Anatolia and Neolithic Europe. Its direct ancestor was carried by charcoal black Iberomaurusians tho. Italians are part black.

            >Loosdrecht et al. (2018) analysed genome-wide data from seven ancient individuals from the Iberomaurusian Grotte des Pigeons site near Taforalt in north-eastern Morocco. The fossils were directly dated to between 15,100 and 13,900 calibrated years before present. The scientists found that all males belonged to haplogroup E1b1b, common among Afroasiatic males. The male specimens with sufficient nuclear DNA preservation belonged to the paternal haplogroup E1b1b1a1 (M78), with one skeleton bearing the E1b1b1a1b1 parent lineage to E-V13, one male specimen belonged to E1b1b (M215*).

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Debunked millions of times. Wait untill the other Italian post the correct subclades from the Martiniano study, Moroccans quadroon.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Martiniano et al. isn't a peer-reviewed study.

            >Moroccans quadroon
            t. angry mesolithic moroccan quadroon

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >Martiniano et al. isn't a peer-reviewed study

            Sure Quadroon. The Martiniano paper is peer-reviewed in famous scientific papers.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Forgot link

            https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.12.19.423614v1

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >Martiniano et al. isn't a peer-reviewed study

            Sure Quadroon. The Martiniano paper is peer-reviewed in famous scientific papers.

            it doesn't say anywhere that it's not peer reviewed

            on the other hand it has been published on molecular biology and evolution, os it's pretty much confirmed

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >Now published in Molecular Biology and Evolution

            LOOOOL

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            martiniano et al 2020 is peer-reviewed and is a study made on purpose to take older samples and give them a better clade

            >t. angry mesolithic moroccan quadroon
            jesus it's always you moroccan in these kinds of threads always, ALWAYS
            moroccans are quadroons because they have black and massive taforalt admixture

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >E-V13 has never been found in Neolithic Anatolia and Neolithic Europe. Its direct ancestor was carried by charcoal black Iberomaurusians tho. Italians are part black.
            italians and balkaners have zero black admixture, you can have e-m2, if you don't have black admixture you are not part black

            another thread same shit
            it has been reassigned as e-m78 in martiniano et al 2020

            >E-V13 has never been found in Neolithic Anatolia and Neolithic Europe
            because it didn't exist, it has been found in early iron age europe, and it descends from e-l618 already in europe since thousands of years

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            E-V13 formed in 6000 BC, if it originated in Neolithic Anatolia it would've found a long time ago considering how many samples we have from this period.

            Again Martiniano et al. 2020 isn't a reliable source.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >Again Martiniano et al. 2020 isn't a reliable source

            Holy Moroccan quadroon cope. Dude don't make me post autosomal and haplogroup DNA result from Tunisian Punics. You won't like that.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            You mean the Greek slaves from Kerkouane? Even your own study admit that they were Greek.

            Shifting the goalposts won't change the fact that you are descended from Mesolithic mulattoes btw. Picrel is how E-V13 was introduced in Europe.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            italians have no black admixture while moroccans do, even if e-v13 was introduced from africans it wouldn't change that autosomally italians are not even remotely as african as moroccans

            but e-v13 developed in europe and was brought in italy by people that actually carried it, aka balkaners at the time
            and balkaners got it from eef from the balkans with e-l618 that got it from anatolian farmers

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >e-v13 developed in europe
            E-v13 is a clade of E-m35 which
            Anyone in europe carrying e-m35 is ultimately african rapebaby including the balkan roman emperors, hitler and napoleon

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >E-v13 is a clade of E-m35 which
            everything is a clade of A hence everyone is an african rapebaby if you go back enough tens of thousands of years
            it doesn't change that e-l618 entered europe in the neolithic from anatolia with eefs, mutated in europe into e-v13, and spread outside the balkans from the balkans

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            A is a whole different haplogroup
            E-v13 is just a branch of E-m35 like e-v22, etc so brothers and cousins

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >A is a whole different haplogroup
            haplogroups are just subclades of other haplogroups, after many mutations(subclades) they give it another letter
            E is a subclade of DE, DE is a subclade of CT and so on

            >E-v13 is just a branch of E-m35 like e-v22, etc so brothers and cousins
            e-v13 is a branch of e-l618 that entered europe from anatolia with populations that already have zero north african or black admixture
            it's a lost battle dude, we found e-v13 samples in early iron age eastern europe, they came to italy from there

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            holy frick ur stupid huh?

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Italians definitely have black admixture. According to the newest studies they are 50% Black 20% Arab:

            >Our distal modeling of modern Sicilians requires not only the two eastern ancestry sources that we have shown were present by the Bronze Age—10.0 ± 2.6% Yamnaya_Samara and 19.9 ± 1.4% Iran_Ganj_Dareh_Neolithic— but also a predominant component of North African ancestry (46.9 ± 5.6% Morocco_LN) (Fig. 4, Supplementary Table 14). These results are consistent with most of the North African-related ancestry having come into Sicily in the Iron Age and afterward, a scenario that is further supported by our observation that modern Sicilians form a clade with Ibiza_Phoenician (p=0.060) and the three most recent Sardinian individuals in our time series (Supplementary Materials). Although these results are consistent in principle with a nearly complete ancestry turnover on the island since the Bronze Age.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >Italians definitely have black admixture. According to the newest studies they are 50% Black 20% Arab:
            that's a shit model morocco_ln doesn't represent any population and it's not "black admixture"

            pic related searches for literal black (in red in pic related) admixture and taforalt admixture (yellow in pic related) as you can see italy is devoid of both and there's only some 2% taforalt in sicily

            another thread same shit waiting to be btfod in the same way

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            This model is perfectly fine. Here's another study where Southern Italians are modeled as 20 to 35% Afro-Levantine.

            >Southern European populations have a high proportion (5–35%) of joint Near Eastern | North African ancestry assigned at k = 4.
            https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1306223110

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >This model is perfectly fine.
            no it's not, it doesn't represent any population and when actually searching for black and taforalt admixture there's zero in italy except some 2% taforalt in sicily, so about 0-1% black in sicily once you consider the black in taforalt

            >Here's another study where Southern Italians are modeled as 20 to 35% Afro-Levantine.
            here's another distortion of facts

            once the "afro levantine" is actually differentiated between north african and levantine in k=5 and k=6 italians have zero north african (orange) in that model
            thank you for posting a model that shows italians with zero north africans

            i won't even explain to you that the blue is swedish so modeling italians as swedish+middle east+north africa is going to inflate the middle easterner hence why germans result as part middle easterner there, but it still shows almost no north africa despite that so it destroys your argument anyway

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            That poster is the Argentinian indio mutt from IQfy

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            this one yes but there was also the "moroccan arab" early in the thread

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            tfw Modern "Italians" are blacker than the Carthaginians

            >All six individuals from the Punic Villamar site were inferred to have substantial levels of ancient North-African ancestry (point estimates ranging 20–35%, Supp. Fig. 14, also see ADMIXTURE and PCA results, Figs. Figs.22 and and4).4). When fit with the same five-way admixture model, present-day Sardinians have a small but detectable level of North-African ancestry (Supp. Fig. 14, also see ADMIXTURE analysis, Fig. 4).

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            what kind of anti science bullshit are you peddling?

            this is the admixture models from the study that this quote refers to, the green (taforalt) is literally almost zero in sicily

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            If you have a problem with this study, feel free to email the geneticists who worked on it lol.

            >this is the admixture models
            This is a qpAdm model. This tool is far more reliable than Admixture BTW.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >If you have a problem with this study, feel free to email the geneticists who worked on it lol.
            i don't have a problem with it, can you read? it models sicilians with extremely little taforalt
            it supports me, not you

            >This is a qpAdm model. This tool is far more reliable than Admixture BTW.
            this model is from the same study from which that quote comes from
            and so is this pca where you can see sicilians with 0 shift towards north west africa

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Read again. Punic Villamar is 20-35% North African according to this study and Sicilians are 50% North African according to another study that uses almost the same model.

            >and so is this pca where you can see sicilians with 0 shift towards north west africa
            Are you blind? They are clearly African shifted compared to Real Europeans (Swedes, French, English).

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >Punic Villamar is 20-35% North African according to this study
            and sicilians have extremely little north african according to this same study you are quoting

            what kind of anti science bullshit are you peddling?

            this is the admixture models from the study that this quote refers to, the green (taforalt) is literally almost zero in sicily

            , the green there is iberomaurusian
            so the same study you are quoting is btfoing you, why is this so difficult to understand

            >Sicilians are 50% North African according to another study that uses almost the same model.
            that model is complete garbage and morocco_ln doesn't represent any population, the taforalt admixture according to the study about sardinia that you quoted

            what kind of anti science bullshit are you peddling?

            this is the admixture models from the study that this quote refers to, the green (taforalt) is literally almost zero in sicily

            is extremely little

            >Are you blind? They are clearly African shifted compared to Real Europeans (Swedes, French, English).
            they are not, SIC is not shifted towards algeria, tunisia and morocco compared to other europeans
            those 5 villamar samples instead are, they are much closer to north africans than anyone else in europe

            last you, you are baiting at this point, i don't believe you can be this fricking stupid

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >and sicilians have extremely little north african according to this same study you are quoting
            If you consider 50% to be "extremely little" sure.

            >that model is complete garbage and morocco_ln doesn't represent any population, the taforalt admixture according to the study about sardinia that you quoted

            what kind of anti science bullshit are you peddling?

            this is the admixture models from the study that this quote refers to, the green (taforalt) is literally almost zero in sicily is extremely little
            Morocco_LN is the core ancestry of Modern North Africans. As for Taforalt, they are an extremely old mulatto population akin to horners, they didn't directly contribute to any modern populations.

            >SIC is not shifted towards algeria, tunisia and morocco compared to other europeans
            PCA are useless for mixed populations like Sicilians and Italians. Although Italians have more African ancestry than Villamar they also have East Asian (ANE) ancestry which makes them plot apart from other Africans.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            this is literally the last reply to this folly and than i leave you to cannibalize yourself for good

            >If you consider 50% to be "extremely little" sure.
            that's a garbage model that doesn't represent any population, when modeled with actual taforalt and proper populations sicilians have almost none, that model you are referring to

            what kind of anti science bullshit are you peddling?

            this is the admixture models from the study that this quote refers to, the green (taforalt) is literally almost zero in sicily

            from the study(pic related because you don't seem to understand this simple fact) that you are talking about gives villamar a lot more north african than it gives to sicilians, sardinians or any italians (that green in that model)

            that pca

            >If you have a problem with this study, feel free to email the geneticists who worked on it lol.
            i don't have a problem with it, can you read? it models sicilians with extremely little taforalt
            it supports me, not you

            >This is a qpAdm model. This tool is far more reliable than Admixture BTW.
            this model is from the same study from which that quote comes from
            and so is this pca where you can see sicilians with 0 shift towards north west africa

            that is extremely valid it doesn't matter how much it makes you angry, from the same study too shows a lot more shift towards africa in those 5 villamar samples (that the quote was referring to) that than sicilians that have almost zero shift towards africa because they have almost no north african admixture
            also pic related, when you see the full quote, with north african it means morocco_en/tafororalt
            this study literally btfo you

            do you understand, this study models sicilians with extremely little taforalt, like it doesn't agree with you i don't know how it tell you this anymore
            and now that everyone has seen what a dumb moroccan quadroon you are, argue alone

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Why do you stupid homosexuals keep giving (you)s to this maroccan animal

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >Again Martiniano et al. 2020 isn't a reliable source.
            martiniano et al 2020 is a perfectly reliable source, it's literally specialized in taking older samples and giving them a better clade
            it has been peer reviewed and has been published on Molecular Biology and Evolution

            there is no better sources than that
            you really have to give up the cope

            you refuse to understand how haplogorups work
            e-v13 came to italy after the roman empire, and the only people that carried it after the roman empire were balkaners, only they could have brought e-v13 to italy, it's this simple
            e-v13 was already in the balkans in the early iron age and probably somewhat before that and it developed from pure eef from the balkans carrying e-l618
            anything else is a fantasy

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Haplogroup E has been found in Mesolitich Anatolians/Levantines with zero SubSaharan African admixture. It will be shock for you when they finally test neolitich and mesolitich Africans, and confirm that modern "Blacks" are just Mulattos of West Eurasian males and whatever female hominid lived in Congo/Sudan.

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          don't get baited by these animals

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      >Imperial "Romans" were slaves.
      COPE. MENA-derived Roman samples were buried in luxurious sarcophagi in the wealthy areas of Rome. Furthermore they did not have any European ancestry so Italians are definitely not related to them.

      >Imperial Rome individuals from QCP suggest a certain degree of similarity with North African and Middle Eastern individuals. Specifically, QCP43 is placed among present-day Israelis and Jordanians, while QCP29, QCP39, QCP40, and QCP42 fall in the North African cluster. QCP27 and QCP37 lie in an intermediate position between the North Africans and the Eastern Mediterranean people (Supplementary Figure 1).

      >A cistern probably supplied several fountains: these interpretations suggest the area was devoted to leisure rather than a productive site. Consistently, the recovering of luxury pottery items connects the site to wealthy people (Musco et al. 2011).

  4. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Daily reminder nordcels and amerimutts were convinced that genetic studies would reveal Mycenean elites to be some Scandinavian high steppe wet fantasy, and it turned out that the highest and honorable King ever found at the Homeric Kingdom of sandy Pylos had literally NO steppe. A bunch of these threads anti med threads have popped up as a cope response to them and their delusions being irrefutably BTFO

  5. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    EEF were mostly WHG but were paternally descended from an Iranian-like polulation from Anatolia. MENA was a result of back-migrations from the Levant. I don't know why you think Meds are North Africans?

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      >EEF were mostly WHG
      Pretty sure they were mostly Anatolian Hunter Gatherer

  6. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    >Italians do not have direct Taforalt ancestry, they received their black genes through Morocco_LN. Italians are 50%
    they aren't that was a shit model using a population that doesn't represent any population
    here

    >Italians definitely have black admixture. According to the newest studies they are 50% Black 20% Arab:
    that's a shit model morocco_ln doesn't represent any population and it's not "black admixture"

    pic related searches for literal black (in red in pic related) admixture and taforalt admixture (yellow in pic related) as you can see italy is devoid of both and there's only some 2% taforalt in sicily

    another thread same shit waiting to be btfod in the same way

    is a model that actually searches for taforalt admixture
    0 in italians, 2% in sicily, end of the argument, the taforalt is 2% in sicily according to models that actually search for taforalt admixture
    you don't need to speculate about the taforalt admixture when we have already models with taforalt admixture

    >The second study I posted basically say the same.
    it doesn't at all, it literally gives italians almost zero (orange) admixture, and that orange admixture is modern tunisians hence the taforalt is even less than that orange admixture

    >This model is perfectly fine.
    no it's not, it doesn't represent any population and when actually searching for black and taforalt admixture there's zero in italy except some 2% taforalt in sicily, so about 0-1% black in sicily once you consider the black in taforalt

    >Here's another study where Southern Italians are modeled as 20 to 35% Afro-Levantine.
    here's another distortion of facts

    once the "afro levantine" is actually differentiated between north african and levantine in k=5 and k=6 italians have zero north african (orange) in that model
    thank you for posting a model that shows italians with zero north africans

    i won't even explain to you that the blue is swedish so modeling italians as swedish+middle east+north africa is going to inflate the middle easterner hence why germans result as part middle easterner there, but it still shows almost no north africa despite that so it destroys your argument anyway

    >Swedish ancestry peaks among Yorruba?
    the dark blue of course

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