Why did bronze age uralics in Scandinavia leave no remains? Neither genetic nor material.
Why did bronze age uralics in Scandinavia leave no remains? Neither genetic nor material.
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They literally weren't even there, it's a psyop.
They did leave dna behind, and the finnic language
Yes, in the iron age they did these things.
Yeah, in 500 AD lmao.
BolshoyOleniOstrov is from 1500-1400 BC.
Not in Scandinavia.
It is in scandinavia
There were no indo-aryans in scandinavia, ever. Sintashta and andronovo come from the eastern edge of cwc which was in russia
Russia is EVROPEAN and valid.
Because there weren't any Uralics in Bronze Age Scandinavia.
because they weren't in scandinavia in the bronze age
Never existed. It was a cope made by browns who couldn’t accept that Whites were exceptional even in prehistory.
>Whites were exceptional even in prehistory.
there are atill saamis living in middle of norway, tf you talkin about nigga
Iron age migrants.
so they bffo'd indoeuropeans? or no one lived there?
there was IE in the balts and S/SW Finland. Latter seemingly very low population density.
Scandinavians were present first in large areas of the ''native'' sami land yeah. They didn't go as far inland in the mountains so maybe the Sami came there before but especially on the Norwegian coast they went up very far and probably arrived in some areas even in Northern sami first
Never existed. They were still chink chionging in Northern China and came to Europe in late Iron Age.
Once again, not in Scandinavia. Those cowards waited for the NBA collapse to even attempt migrarion, and only in the iron age would they have real settlments.
makes sense, because it was a lot warmer in scandinavia during the NBA, the cooling of the weather is what caused the majority of germanics to start moving south.
So basically, Indo-aryans predate uralics in Scandinavia by quite a bit.
What about the Finns and the Sami?
Because it's 3500 years ago. They've barely found evidence of Vikings and that's just 1000 years ago.
Wtf are you on about? There are hundreds of runestones in Scandinavia.
Runestones =/= Vikings.
Retard, many of them were placed there by norse in the viking age.
The viking age was 1300-1000 ago, not 3500
You said there was barely any evidence of vikings which is nonsense. Further more, there are plenty of Nordic Bronze Age remains in Scandinavia. Fuck ton of bronze and carvings. Which are thousands of years old.
That wasn't me kek
I don't even think we have little evidence of vikangs
Uralics were not there yet, but rather the Paleo-Laplandic EHG remnant population. Sami only reach there and replace them in like the Middle Ages.
They might have been genetically quite EHG but their nganasan would have been their cultural backbone probably.
Why? The Paleo-Laplandic substrate in Samic languages is unlike anything else we know of.
I just doubt it because EHG were literally R1b/b and would sire the indo-europeans.
I don't think we have pre-Sami Y-DNA from that area, they could've been R1.
Surely then this substrate would be similar to indo-european? It's more likely a SHG remnant than EHG.
SHG themselves are paternally EHG, it might be related to Indo-European distantly but likely diverged enough that it couldn't be recognised via traditional means.
>SHG themselves are paternally EHG,
No they are not, they are I2 mostly with one single pre-I1. They had WHG fathers.
Ok then, then it's possible it was a WHG language, but we lack the information to determine definitely at the moment
No, and if anyone was it was through rape by WHGs
Same way an EHG ended up with j2
Many EHG were literally R1b/R1a. How do you think Corded got their R1s?
>Many EHG were literally R1b/R1a.
>During theNeolithicand earlyEneolithic, EHGs on the Pontic–Caspian steppe formed theYamnaya culture, after some admixture withCaucasus hunter-gatherers(CHGs).The genetic cluster formed from this admixture is known asWestern Steppe Herder(WSH). Populations closely related to the people of the Yamnaya culture are supposed to have embarked on amassive migrationleading to the spread ofIndo-European languagesthroughout large parts of Eurasia.
>The EHG male ofSamara(dated to ca. 5650-5550 BC) carriedY-haplogroupR1b1a1a*andmt-haplogroupU5a1d. The other EHG male, buried inKarelia(dated to ca. 5500-5000 BC) carried Y-haplogroupR1a1and mt-haplogoupC1g
>They suggested that EHGs harbored mixed ancestry from Ancient North Eurasians (ANEs) and WHGs. The people of the Yamnaya culture were found to be a mix of EHG and a "Near Eastern related population". During the 3rd millennium BC, the Yamnaya people embarked on a massive expansion throughout Europe, which significantly altered the genetic landscape of the continent. The expansion gave rise to cultures such as Corded Ware, and was possibly the source of the distribution of Indo-European languages in Europe.
Wikipedia don't understand archeogenetics. This mixture is likely older than that. Newest studies confirm that a EHG/CHG foragers lived in the vicinity of Don River. It's something that clearly predate Yamnaya.
No they are right on this one. ANE clearly is the grandfather of Indo-europeans, and their sons (EHG) would spread it, although further diluting the ANE with CHG and EEF. This makes perfect sense if you look at genetics today. North yuros (celts,nords,slavs) peak at 20% ANE. It's a done deal.
No. ANE is too old to be a father of Indo-European. ANE could be ancestral to it, but it fathered many other languages, including other EHG related languages that went extinct.
>No. ANE is too old to be a father of Indo-European
Reading comprehension. GRANDFATHER. EHG were up to 79% ANE and they spread it. This is facts. Your anatolian theory was debunked.
Nobody goes with Anatolian hypothesis anymore though. Southern Arc hypothesis is where aDNA and archeology point at, even linguistics
t. Hardvard tranny
>genetics is le bad when it refutes my fantasies
You still haven't laid out any genetic proofs.
Mathieson et al 2015 falsified the theory that Anatolian entered through the balkans
Reich 2018 (speech) falsified Sintashta and Andronovo moving into india
Southern arc paper apparently provides further evidence, this time directly about Anatolian
CHG were not PIE. They are Caucasian Khabib types.
And? This has nothing to do with the steppe hypothesis being raped by aDNA which tests the claims it makes
R1 was already into europe without ANE
>R1 was already into europe without ANE
So? Q is in Sweden. Fact is the most relevant and alive R lineages came with ANE.
Not really, most r1b in europe cannot be linked to yamnaya or cwc
Yes they can, retard. Early Cwc was R1a And R1b.
>it is currently not possible to directly link Yamnaya, CW, and BB groups as paternal genealogical sources for one another, particularly noteworthy in light of steppe ancestry’s suggested male-driven spread and the proposed patrilocal/patriarchal social kinship systems of these three societies
Papac et al 2021
I swear haplonaggers are all low iq
The modern west European R1b clade is downstream from CWC R1b
Yamnaya and CWC are the two with incongruent R1b clades.
Modern west european R1b comes from WHG-admixed EEFs
Cope and seethe
Retard lmao. WHG were I2.
Ancient Rome: A Genetic Crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean
The Arrival of Steppe and Iranian Related Ancestry in the Islands of the Western Mediterranean
Ancient Genome-wide DNA from France highlights the complexity of interactions between Mesolithic hunter-gatherers and neolithic farmers
WHGs with R1b
And even 0% steppe Nuragics with R1b
You must be absolutely retarded buddy. R1b in "WHG" is exclusively from EHG.
You haven't read the studies, have you? The location with r1b has no EHG dna, it's in switzerland
Moron go read the papers, they even have maps with pie charts so your 10 year old brain can grasp the information better
Oh you're talking about the swiss outlier. As already explained, extinct dead outlier lineages do NOT disprove my overall point of alive and healthy ANE related lineages dominating Europe.
You can't trace any r1b fron europe back to ehgs, especially any ane population
iron gates and villabruna are EHG shifted.
the non-steppe neolithic farmers with r1b are all r1b-v88, which isn't the ancestor of modern european r1b (and happens to come from Ukraine).
Villabruna isn't, see Rivollat 2020
Almost all WHG have ANE ancestry. R is from ANE, no doubt about it.
Rivolatt actually illustrates it out too. It's shifted further than WHG-proper.
It's right in the middle of samples who don't have ehg, check the qpadms
Unless you want to insinuate that somehow all whgs, includings in ireland, had ehg somehow, and after ehg receiving 1/3 whg
I checked the supplementals, the study doesn't try to model Villabruna
>Unless you want to insinuate that somehow all whgs, includings in ireland, had ehg
Yes, I think they all have some AG3 related ancestry that isn't present in other HG like, say Aurignacian or Loschbour.
It's also the simplest explanation for why v88 is in Europe that early.
Once again, Yamnaya is a term I have never used here. I continue using CWC. Competition between R1b and R1a was massive and they killed each other off several times. Doesn't mean they weren't ANE grandsons both of them.
EHG had diverse Y-DNA. R1a, R1b, Q, J1, I2. The term EHG should be abandoned, it's way too vague. There was a cline going from EHG to WHG with various admixture proportions.
Correct. But the EHG who spread Indo-european languages were R1 and had lots of ANE.
EHG didn't speak IE, otherwise we would know about it since 7000bce
Aegean and balkan farmers had EHG instead of WHG, see the 2021 study on neolithic-chl europe with EEFs and HGs
No IE evidence there
Then who did, genius? R1 EHGs ancestral to ANE is the best bet we got. Unless you got a better theory?
Southern Arc. Literally nothing else adds up. Mathieson Krause and Reich go with SA hypothesis as well already from 2015. Remember mathieson 2015?
There's another theory about Central Asian Sarazm but it's too fringe as of now
As far as I'm aware. Corded Ware coming from the east is still regarded as right.
the Southern Arc thesis still holds that Sredni, proto-CW and Yamnaya spoke PIE. It just questions whether it came from the CHG component as opposed to the EHG heavier one.
Well there appears to be a clear case against CHG men being the dominate faction in CWC.
I don't agree with their conclusion but they seem to rely on a belief that it could be spread to Sredni maternally.
Languages have spread maternally with no problem, or patrilineal replacement have not changed the language. Or language has changed without ydna replacement. This haploautism = language isn't correlation let alone causation
Read reich's abstract from his speech, it's not CHG. It's something newer
Yamnaya had two geneflows from the near east, not one. And we already knew that there were males migrating initially, see J in EHGs
>Read reich's abstract from his speech, it's not CHG. It's something newer
>Yamnaya had two geneflows from the near east, not one
I'm not sure this isn't just referring to geneflow 1 being EEF and geneflow 2 being CHG.
It would be very interesting if he can prove actual affinity between the CHG/Iran N in Sredni Stog and the CHG/Iran N in chl Anatolia.
Because he says from the caucasus, not near east in general. Near east was added by me because I couldn't remember what he said
> The impermeability of Anatolia to exogenous migration contrasts with our finding that the Yamnaya had two distinct gene flows, both from West Asia, suggesting that the Indo-Anatolian language family originated in the eastern wing of the Southern Arc and that the steppe served only as a secondary staging area of Indo-European language dispersal.
I think this is too vague to understand until we get the paper on the 26th.
>The impermeability of Anatolia to exogenous migration contrasts with our finding that the Yamnaya had two distinct gene flows, both from West Asia, suggesting that the Indo-Anatolian language family originated in the eastern wing of the Southern Arc and that the steppe served only as a secondary staging area of Indo-European language dispersal.
West asia, not caucasus. But in this case it's the same, because he talks about geographical location of the source
With zero evidence
This is true, we have no idea. Hence most people focus on Hittites so the assumption for the ancestor (PIE) is safer
But we might never fully know, maybe it was from unsampled migrants into the caucasus from oceania who disappeared, who knows
>With zero evidence
Lots of it actually. All of R1 is eastern shifted and spread west.
Wait, what are you arguing for? I was talking CWC not being PIE, we probably talk about different things
That's too vague. Obviously not all R1 could be Indo-European. Indo-European is too young for this. R1b-M269 and R1a-M417 sure, everything beyond that is unlikely if not impossible.
Not all R1 nor EHG were PIE speaking. There is significant diversity even among neolithic PC Steppe populations and onward. I don't think we can conclude that Samara HG, DDII, or even Khvalynsk spoke PIE.
I think we can, no evidence of CHG being PIE.
PIE can be from EHG yet still not every single ancient EHG-derived culture has to have spoke some sort of PIE or proto-IE.
The linguistic consensus is that it is a relatively young language.
I think we can as EHG are mostly ANE.
And WSHG are even more ANE. Is PIE from Kazakhstan or from Western Mongolia? Tarim are also more ANE. Is PIE from Western China?
Villabruna was R1b. Multiple WHG had R1b. Was PIE in West Europe by 12,000 BC?
>And WSHG are even more ANE
Wrong. EHG are like 79%.
No. WSHG and related population tend to be more ANE than EHG (80%+)
No they fucking weren't. Cwc were massively dilluted.
>I think we can
No we can't. I don't think you really understand. PIE is a relatively young language. It diversified in Copper Age.
Samara HG is too old to be PIE and Khvalynsk culture which replaced it did not contribute to steppe migrants who invaded Europe.
You are literally splitting hairs. ANE came into Europe from an eastern expansion that would replace most european haplos with R1. EHG had lots of ANE and R1. Samara being ancestral to some ancient PIE is very likely and genetically consistent unless you are a CHGay who believes EHG men fucking CHG women had their sons learn their mother's tongue.
No. You just don't understand how lingustistics work. And no, I'm not a CHG guy, but it's silly to assume that EHG spoke an Indo-European language. PIE developed in the South, close to Caucasus in a population that was already mixed. This is why the theory of Eurasiatic (ANE related) imposing its language on Northwest Caucasian languages makes sense to me.
WHY doesn't it make sense? These cultures are famously extremely patriarchal and spread their languages all over the world. You are the one practising mental gymnastics. Oh these R1 people just so happened to adopt a caucasian language while also fucking all their women despite being patriarchal.
>famously extremely patriarchal
There aren't a lot of evidence for this, that's what shizo gimbutas said
If anything they had high status female graves
Nonsense. Their male lineages were always more similar than their female ones aka patriarchal.
"Patriarchal" refers to culture. Haplogroups do not. Steppe cultures had high status graves for women, farmers did not
Put 2 and 2 together
You're too lost in your correlation/causation confirmation bias. There is no proof that yamnaya were patriarchal, do you understand? It's proposed, not proven. Patrilocality is usually the word used
Sex bias is a better guide to use. And still doesn't say much
Here's some food for thought that you will most likely ignore because it doesn't suit your theories
If yamnaya and cwc & co were patriarchal, why did they literally ABANDON their paternal culture? Their fathers' tradition of nomadic steppe herding and horse riding, all abandoned instantly in favor of farming and non-mobile lifestyles
PS they were all patriarchal of course. Matriarchal societies never existed
Listen here you fucking mong. If a people have narrow and similar paternal lineages and wide and many alien female lineages, the culture respects the importance of Father to son lines rather than mother to daughter.
I accept your concession and total lack of answers
Goku lost. You lost. CHG women were raped. Me? Proven right. You? Tranny. I won btw. Male lines important? Patriarchal.
>Here's some food for thought that you will most likely ignore because it doesn't suit your theories
>If yamnaya and cwc & co were patriarchal, why did they literally ABANDON their paternal culture? Their fathers' tradition of nomadic steppe herding and horse riding, all abandoned instantly in favor of farming and non-mobile lifestyles
>PS they were all patriarchal of course. Matriarchal societies never existed
Because it was comfier, they still killed the males and fucked the women. And yes, Matriarchies are a lie.
>abandoning your tradition is comfier
Yeah if you have literally zero honor
They didn't abandon it, they merged both while DEMANDING all the previous men dead.
Basques were patriarchal and yet speak a non-IE language
Again correlation<>causation. You have no hard evidence so you make guesses based on other guesses
Which cultures are patriarchal? EHG? No evidence of that.
You're really confused about this whole thing I think.
That's not WSHG or WSHG related.
Distance to: RUS_AfontovaGora3
First EHG is 15. The ones closer are all WSHG related.
ANE cultures who spread R1 into europe and replaced the majority of their male lineages.
And what evidence do you have for this? Dnieper Donets was a mix of R1 and I2 with mostly EHG ancestry. They buried their dead in communal graves. EHG had diverse Y-DNA.
>And what evidence do you have for this?
Bronze Age genetics
>Dnieper Donets was a mix of R1 and I2
I2 and I1 are outliers in Europe. They would be the few peoples who didn't get genocided. Doesn't disprove my point though.
We are talking here about Mesolithic and early Neolithic.
No, we are talking late neolithic early bronze age migrations who ANE'd Europe something terribly.
No, we are talking about EHG here, so about hunter gatherers or hunter-fishers before they acquired animals and became pastoralists.
EHG fucking CHG women who then fucked EEF women is 100% what we're talking about.
No. We are talking about the origin of PIE. I said it originated somewhere in South Russia, close to the Caucasus. You claimed it's an EHG language, which means that all EHG-mixed populations should speak it, including Baltic HGs, SHGs, Ukrainian HGs, Iron Gates HGs and many others.
>which means that all EHG-mixed populations should speak it, including Baltic HGs, SHGs, Ukrainian HGs, Iron Gates HGs and many others.
Nope, not at all! SHG and most baltic HGs had WHG fathers and thus spoke Ooga booga.
So it's about paternal lineages? Okay then. It means that R1b WHG speak an Indo-European language then? Same with WSHG and Tarim people?
So Indo-European language was brought by European migrants to Africa in the Mesolithic or Neolithic?
Why not go back further? Maybe R2 is also Indo-European. Maybe Dravidians are in fact Indo-Europeans?
Don't you understand how silly and uninformed you sound? PIE is dated to some 5000 BC by the way.
R1b is WHG was an outlier. But he might have spoken some archaic form of super ancient proto PIE, yes.
No. There are many WHG and farmers with WHG ancestry with R1b. It was a dominant haplogroup among Serbian (Iron Gates) HGs.
No there aren't.
Even yfull lists a few of them.
CHGs fucked EHG women as well hence the J showing up
>inb4 why not more
The aristocratic CHG lineages were eventually overrun by plebeian EHGs breeding like rabbits
Yamnaya and CWC abandoned their paternal culture and became farmers like their wives
>>inb4 why not more
Good pup, you must sense my bloodlust and acted accordingly. J were somewhat succesfull at raping EHG women at first
So were WHG men (SHG). Point is though that the lineages that brought ANE into Europe were literally the opposite of this. EHG bulls would turn the tide something fierce and kick CHG back to the caucasus.
EHGs looked like incel DYELs, they couldn't do shit
>Yamnaya and CWC abandoned their paternal culture and became farmers like their wives
... after killing their earlier hudbands and sons. Lineages were SUPER important. Also, agro-pastoralism was a natural development. The Cwc for example would be massively less intolerant of lactose than the earlier farmers. They would also be more warlike (graves with weapons)
>The Cwc for example would be massively less intolerant of lactose than the earlier farmers.
They weren't. Lactorse tolerance only started to get selected for in CWC. Less than 5% of them were lactose tolerant.
That's literally what I fucking said. CWC was more tolerant than previous farmers.
>People of the Nordic Bronze Age and Corded Ware show the highest lactose tolerance among Bronze Age Europeans
Nordic Bronze Age sure, not CWC. Wikipedia again?
>Lineages were SUPER important.
>bs excuse as to why they abandoned the ways of their forefathers
Lol cope more, you idolize gypsies with no sense of honor
Haplogroups. You have to be retarded not to understand this. The domimation of single haplos among population in Europe is a clear sign of importance of lineage.
Source? Where's the paper with the empirical evidence that proves this. I know J was important for EHGs to the point where it shower up in Karelia but I don't think it was THAT important for them to preserve it on purpose
>They would also be more warlike (graves with weapons)
CTC had graves with more weapons and even practiced slavery.
They didn't merge shit, they became farmers who even abandoned their horse culture. Levantine cultures had far bigger horse cultures than cwc and nordic bronze age
They fucked the women and killed the men. Genetically very identical to andronovo too.
>genetically very identical to 40% eef people
imagine mixing yourself out of existence, yikea
>sintashta above EHG
Kek what a meme, it's not like the chg in them magically made them more ane than ehg. They had far less ane than ehg total and the rest of their ancestries were still divergent so they should be lower
Those are outliers, see that small o? There were some ANE heavy guys buried in SIntashta graves. I think they mostly carried Q. Same with that Srubnaya outlier.
Distance: 7.4707% / 0.07470681
Distance: 4.6566% / 0.04656565
All these cultures are massively dilluted.
I think Bomhard is right about the origin of PIE. Or close to truth.
>There have been numerous attempts to find relatives of Proto-Indo-European, not the least of which is the Indo-Uralic Hypothesis. According to this hypothesis, Proto-Indo-European and Proto-Uralic are alleged to descend from a common ancestor. However, attempts to prove this hypothesis have run into numerous difficulties. One difficulty concerns the inability to reconstruct the ancestral morphological system in detail, and another concerns the rather small shared vocabulary. This latter problem is further complicated by the fact that many scholars think in terms of borrowing rather than inheritance. Moreover, the lack of agreement in vocabulary affects the ability to establish viable sound correspondences and rules of combinability. This paper will attempt to show that these and other difficulties are caused, at least in large part, by the question of the origins of the Indo-European parent language. Evidence will be presented to demonstrate that Proto-Indo-European is the result of the imposition of a Eurasiatic language-to use Greenberg's term-on a population speaking one or more primordial Northwest Caucasian languages.
Basically Indo-European is Eurasiatic (father of IE, Uralic and Altaic) transformed by southern Northwest Caucasian contacts (CHG).
Ah forgot about it
That would be the third total hypothesis, second major one
That’s wrong. PIE was a CHG language from the Caucasus. That lines up with all evidence.
it would be difficult for r1b to be from WHG considering r-ph155 is essentially 100% siberian/asian. And R2's distribution also being consistent with ANE input in CHG.
Both villabruna and especially iron gates hg were minorly EHG shifted.
I read the paper. Earliest admixture with EHGs happens after 7000bce
Oldest R haplogroups in europe are older than that
>Why didn't the seven guys in Bronze Age Sweden leave anything behind?
Formerly finno-ugric areas are literally the ones with the most blond-haired blue-eyed people in the world
>bumfuck inbred small village manages to procreate only between themselves
>fair features become dominant
>this bumfuck village now grows under Swedish and Russian rule
>thousand years later Fingoloids LARP as the whitest people, despite being a bunch of genetically weak inbreds
>thousand years later germoids LARP as genetically weak inbreds
>grows under Russian rule