When did the Normans in Normandy lose their identity?


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When Henry V reconquered Normandy, did they still identify as Normans?

  1. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    As soon as they lost their Norse tongue, language is everything.

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      Within about 100 years.

      Language is the most obvious and important reflection of a nation's inner character, but it's not everything.

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        >but it's not everything.
        It’s like 90% though, let’s be honest

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          No cass it isn't

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      Till the 1950s when their language was banned.

      Even after they lost the "Norse tongue" they still ended up with something that was not mutually intelligible with the main types of French inclueding the French of Paris.

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        dude people still speak norman french. Not the old dialect mind you, but the same goes for middle english and the rest of old french dialects.

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        Are you stupid?
        Norman was an oil language and was extremely close from Parisian French
        The countless French words in English are basically identical to their French counterpart

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          >Are you stupid?
          It's LULZ, do you really need to ask...

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        >Even after they lost the "Norse tongue" they still ended up with something that was not mutually intelligible with the main types of French inclueding the French of Paris.

        big deal, every region of France had its own dialect

  2. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    No. Their identity was already indistinguishable from northwestern French culture by the time of the Conquest of Britain. They certainly had some impact on shaping general customs in that area, especially when it came to inheritance rights and administrative domain management, but it wasn’t exclusive to them by the XIIth century. By the time of Philip Augustus they were so thoroughly integrated that he faced little resistance to transfering the norman lands to himself. And by the time Henry V took over Normandy, the Normans had in fact become so «patriotic» for lack of a better word that they formed some very determined proto guerilla bands to fight the English with the unrest lasting years in some areas.

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      Not just that, but they strongly identified as French by that point. The Norman kings of Britain are recorded by contemporary chroniclers as having considered themselves Frenchmen 'by race, language, mannerisms and customs'...
      They had partial Norse ancestry by that point, that's about it. They probably had about as much Breton blood as Norse blood by the time they stormed Britannia.

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        >They had partial Norse ancestry by that point, that's about it. They probably had about as much Breton blood as Norse blood by the time they stormed Britannia.

        Harold II had more Scandinavian blood than William did, lol.

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      Not just that, but they strongly identified as French by that point. The Norman kings of Britain are recorded by contemporary chroniclers as having considered themselves Frenchmen 'by race, language, mannerisms and customs'...
      They had partial Norse ancestry by that point, that's about it. They probably had about as much Breton blood as Norse blood by the time they stormed Britannia.

      They had their own identity until the Early Modern era. Through the 14-15th century they did think of themseves as Normans, although part of France. And their culture was very, very much identical to basically every other people in Northern France. Like the Angevins, French Low Counties, Maine and so on. They did not believe themselves to be seperate from being French, it's a regional identity. They had no unique culture as Normans as it was just Northern French culture as a whole which they had.

      I don't think they identified as Norman by the 14th century.... They also don't consider themselves French. Henry IV of Lancaster spoke English and I think back in Edward III's rule, nobility began learning English and taking on the English identity more so through comradery with the yeoman/archers.

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        Also I believe they saw themselves as getting revenge on the Conqueror when Edward III in Normandy

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        >They also don't consider themselves French
        According to contemporary chroniclers they did, actually. That was a direct quote from Walter of Gainsborough.

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          But isn't it more complicated than this? Like they believed they were French, but they also believed that Parisian French (the French of the King of France), was a false French. They believed they were preserving the real French of nobility, correct?

          • 7 months ago
            Anonymous

            Well, to be fair this was before the 14th century. I think it was like the 11th century, or 12th century at the absolute latest so the Norman elites all still widely spoke French by that point.

            • 7 months ago
              Anonymous

              Yes, but it's a different dialect. It's one of many old french dialects. Modern French eventually came up from Paris through royal favor. I believe that there was a war of the language. They could tell a difference immediately if one was speaking Norman French for the most part I believe. I think at some points they had trouble understanding eachother's French. I thought that Edward I or one of the kings once accused the French King of destroying the language or something.

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        I'm refering to the Normans in Normandy. The ones in England had assimilated by the 13th century and their Kings were Angevins, not Normans.

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          Yes, their title traces back to Anjou but that's not where they claim the crown. Their claim to being King is through England same as the Normans and they are still descendants of William through Matilda. All Plantagenet kings would have held their Norman heritage in high regard, because it is through that claim that they have their English crown through conquest and blessing of the Church.

  3. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    They had their own identity until the Early Modern era. Through the 14-15th century they did think of themseves as Normans, although part of France. And their culture was very, very much identical to basically every other people in Northern France. Like the Angevins, French Low Counties, Maine and so on. They did not believe themselves to be seperate from being French, it's a regional identity. They had no unique culture as Normans as it was just Northern French culture as a whole which they had.

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      Nobody cares about blood, spastic, language is everything.

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        I literally didn't mention ancestry at all nigga, what are you on about.

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          LANGUAGE = ETHNICITY

          • 7 months ago
            Anonymous

            Didn't mention ethnicity either nigga

          • 7 months ago
            Anonymous

            Yes, we're all Englishmen for speaking English

            Stfu retard Turk

            • 7 months ago
              Anonymous

              >Yes, we're all Englishmen for speaking English
              If it’s your mothertongue then yeah, you are actually.
              Cope on.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                no you retard. if you raise a child with, for example, an english father and an indian mother, and his mothers tongue becomes english because the father forbids speaking indian at home, but the mother raises him as an indian, with indian culture, mannerism etc, he isnt magically english just by speaking the language.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                Yeah he is, actually

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                your reasoning is completely arbitrary.

  4. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    >When Henry V reconquered Normandy, did they still identify as Normans?

    Retard please
    They already identified as French in fucking 1066...

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      Would you called Scottish a English?

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        Yes, everyone already does.

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          Autism incarnate

          • 7 months ago
            Anonymous

            Dude, literally everyone considers Scotland a region of England. You’re a lot more English than Austrians are Germans and EVERYONE considers Austrians Germans LOL LMAO

            • 7 months ago
              Anonymous

              Please get help cassandra

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                Please stop LARPing

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Englishman says this
                Err bro don't let me get your ancestry map
                >but im le fooking weegie
                No you aren't youre an English incel with a weegie accent

            • 7 months ago
              Anonymous

              They don't though. Its a region in Britain, England is a separate region with clearly defined borders, same as wales.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                They do though

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        The parts of Scotland where people actually live were historically known as ‘the Lands of the English in the Kingdom of the Scots’.
        So yeah.

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          >haha guys why dont you read this Wikipedia article i wrote hahah
          Cass we don't care no one does. You quoting a random french visitor to the Scottish Borders doesn't mean anything. Whats worse is you openly lie about what he said. He exclusively referred to the south east of Scotland which quite literally was the land of rhe English until it was annexed a few decades before his notes

          • 7 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Scottish Borders
            Actually it was the Firth of Forth which was the ethnic boundary between the English and Scottish people, far to the north of the political one.

            • 7 months ago
              Anonymous

              >a body of water was the land of the English
              Okay i can tell you're having a total meltdown right now so ill leave you to it

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                I think you might actually have mental retardation.

          • 7 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Whats worse is you openly lie about what he said. He exclusively referred to the south east of Scotland
            He actually referred to all lands south of the Firth of Forth.
            And yes thanks for acknowledging they’re English lands.

            • 7 months ago
              Anonymous

              >they’re
              Yes they were until their full scotticisation due to mass emigration there from northern Scotland leading to a sudden burst of knowledge there

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                Fantasist revisionism rears its ugly head once again.
                “Scot”land in a nutshell.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                >no my greatx6 grandmother wasn't broken in by gael bulls nooo
                Lmfao no one agrees with your creepy incel history. Not medieval historians not modern ones.

                [...]

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                >no my greatx6 grandmother wasn't broken in by gael bulls nooo
                Have you ever actually taken a look at the Y-DNA of “Scot”land? Hahahahaha

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                >when historical rape fantasies come back to haunt you

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                >the Northern and western isles which were totally conquered by the norse have no norse dna
                >fife which resisted every germanic invasions has rhe most
                Yep its a seethey weegie episode

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                >the Northern and western isles which were totally conquered by the norse have no norse dna
                Not what the map even shows, idiot

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Not what the map even shows,
                Thats the point you braindead autist
                Fuck me if youre this unintelligent and lacking in sense then bye

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                This is just getting embarrassing now, lol.
                Cope on, little Englishman, cope on.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                >fife which resisted every germanic invasions has rhe most
                There was literally an Anglo-Saxon bishopric in Fife in the fucking 600s, LMFAO

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Germanic people brought a whole new set of paternal lineages with them, namely I1, I2a2a-Z161, R1a (L664 and Z284), R1b-U106, and to a lower extent Q1a. Those haplogroups now make up over half of all male lineages in England and Lowland Scotland.

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      >They already identified as French in fucking 1066...

      The Bayeux Tapestry was created by Saxon artisans. As far as they gave a fuck, anyone from Frankia was Frankish (Francii).

      As for the Normans themselves- like with the rest of France- they identified extremely with their locale & their lords. Which means in this case the Normandy & Normaness.

      Besides a lot of period sources single out the Normans as being a unique identity. The 1200s history of the Normans is entitled "Gesta Normannorum" (the deeds of the Normans). During the time when the Plantagenets were challenging the French King upon their claims to the French throne, they began talking of "Gens Normannorum" (the Norman tribe/race etc.) and "Normanitas" (Normaness) in an effort to highlight how they're not subjects to a French King, but peers making a claim to the throne.

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        This seems like the best response but there is a shift from Edward III toward embracing English identity by Richard II and Henry IV but of course even Henry V would have considered his Norman heritage to be the basis of his claim same as Edward. In many respects, while English kings considered themselves equals with the French Kings, through William in many respects they were also peers of France. I suspect that the wars to claim the French crown wouldn't have ended if it were not for Henry VI and eventual collapse of the plantagenet families.

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          Well not basis of his claim as that came through Edward II and Isabella in terms of legitimacy as French Kings. But William's dynasty of course played a role as well.

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        >The Bayeux Tapestry was created by Saxon artisans.

        Not an argument, it was commissioned by Normans
        Btw, the Domesday Book also refers to the Normans as French

  5. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    Identity=surname
    Seeing that Norman surnames are French should tell you how quickly they assimilated

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      Surname + Language, yes

  6. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    By the 1100s
    David I conquered Scotland with a Norman army and they all spoke English

  7. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    >its another cassandra episode
    Holy fuck go outside

  8. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    Easier to claim the French throne if you call yourself French. Oh wai that was the Plantegenets who were full French

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