What even is faith? There's so much evidence of Christianity being true that it's not really a matter of unjustified belief or a leap in belief.
From the OT prophecies to the Swinburnian probability Calculus .... there's a heap of evidence.
What even is faith?
If religion can be proven then it becomes subject to scientific and philosophic inquiry. If you want your god to get investigated in the lab, probed with scientific instruments and have every eannabe academic publish their two cents on the issue in a crummily peer-reviewed, corporation-financed paper in some overrated journal, knock yourself out.
>There's so much evidence of Christianity being true
What evidence
>OT prophecies lining up with history
>An odd historical event completely chsnging succesful people's lives that otherwise would be more content with their previous status
>Extremely right historical records that if fed into probability calculus yield plausible outcomes
I would like to know more
Can you tell me some of these prophesies please? And are there any that arent true? I always analysed christianity from a philosophical perspective not a historical one
Iasiah 9: 1-6, there is even the trinity directly hinted at.
Thats not a historical prophecy though, you cant prophesise something thats part of your own future writing. A prophecy would have to be validated by non biblical sources for it to have any weight
>you cant prophesise something thats part of your own future writing
Did Isaiah write the New Testament? Was Isaiah written around the same time as the life of Jesus?
No, but Jesus and the people who wrote NT read Isaiah
That more like just writing what you were told/expected of you
And I'm sure you've got strong evidence they were just making things up to fit the prophecies?
Why would I need evidence for that?
It's just a question of what you think is most likely, people penning in stuff to fit with old text or, whatever you think is going on
>Why would I need evidence for that?
Because if you don't have it you're making shit up to give yourself an excuse to dismiss actual evidence. Which is exactly what you're doing, thank you for demonstrating that.
>It's just a question of what you think is most likely
What does "most likely" mean? How do you determine whether something is "more likely"? It looks like the way you're doing it is by arbitrarily dismissing anything that refutes you. So I'll reason like you: it's more likely the prophecies were actually fulfilled because I said so, don't do any thinking.
>So I'll reason like you: it's more likely the prophecies were actually fulfilled because I said so, don't do any thinking
This is literally what you ARE doing
>that evidence doesn't count because I said so
>"akshally you're the one that's doing that :^)"
You say the most probable explanation for the story about magic, is magic, cuz you're gullible
I say the most probable explanation is that it was made up, cuz I'm satanic
>cuz I'm satanic
Oh fuck, I meant to write presupposing naturalism
How do I delete my posts?
>I say the most probable explanation is that it was made up, cuz
Because you're suppressing the knowledge of God. You have conceded that it's true a dozen times over, you have failed to come up with any justification for rejecting the evidence because there isn't any. The absurdity of your sin is exposed by prophecy being fulfilled almost a millennium after it was written and countless other facts. This is why the bible says "The fool hath said in his heart there is no God". If you don't believe in my God, you're stupid.
I tell you that I can fly
is this evidence of me being able to fly?
>A prophecy would have to be validated by non biblical sources for it to have any weight
Why? How did you derive this criterion?
It's like when Joseph Smith "prophecized" that his church would have a big blue temple
Then 60 years later his followers builds a big blue temple
That's not a prophecy, that's people following instructions
So the sources need to be hostile to Christianity in order to be legitimate?
No, obviously not.
I just don't think prophecies works as evidence of anything supernatural, if you have the people "fulfilling" them also having read the original prophecy and have a desire to fulfil them.
What's more impressive are prophecies that gets into stuff outside human control, or at least outside the control of the group with a desire to fulfil it.
Like predicting a earthquake at a certain time and place, that's a good prohercy.
Stuff like predicting the result of war, that you really have no influence on, that's okay. But less impressive, because it's easier to guess at
>I just don't think
>What's more impressive
Nobody cares what you think or what impresses you.
You obviously care, because you responded to him.
Does not follow
Did he really respond? It looks like he stopped reading when he saw the unnecessary language of subjective opinion.
Holy moly, dude
You get to decide yourself, there is no cheat-sheet to look this stuff up on
Like if I tell you that I can shoot laser beams from my eyes (this is really true, please keep it a secret, I don't want to be sent to a FEMA lab)
It's up to you what you think is most likely, people having superpowers, or people telling lies
>You get to decide yourself
No, you literally don't. Facts don't care about your feelings
Okay, tell us. What's the fact of the matter, how often do people make stuff up Vs. how often people walk on water
>walk on water
[From the book of Anon]
Anon was on a boat with a viking and a Muslim. Suddenly, Jesus appeared and turned all the water into ice, so that he could walk on it. The viking yeld out "ISA" because his ship was frozen in ice. The Muslim took note of the situation that he was in. Anon laughed, and got out of the boat, in order to join Jesus on the rest of his story
>Facts don't care about your feelings
Not talking about facts.
Talking about if you think something is true, or not
If there was zero evidence of the resurrection. It would still be true that some guy rose from the dead 2000 years ago.
It's just that you wouldn't know it.
>Facts don't care about your feelings
That's why shouldn't worship facts.
No, obviously not.
Everyone knows prophecies doesn't works as evidence of anything supernatural, if you have the people "fulfilling" them also having read the original prophecy and have a desire to fulfil them.
What's more impressive are prophecies that gets into stuff outside human control, or at least outside the control of the group with a desire to fulfil it.
Like predicting a earthquake at a certain time and place, that's a good prohercy.
Stuff like predicting the result of war, that you really have no influence on, that's okay. But less impressive to everyone, because it's easier to guess at
>Thats not a historical prophecy though, you cant prophesise something thats part of your own future writing.
The writings were hundreads of years apart, and there are historical places mentioned in the Gospels being dug out even relatively recently.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pool_of_Bethesda
I don't understand this apologetic
What's surprising about the people writing the gospels knowing the geography of Jerusalem at the time?
So you think the Gospels were a post-hoc invention and deliberately written to account for the prophets of the OT?
Sure, I think there's some made up stuff in them
I also think there is some true stuff
Like Jesus of NAZARETH actually being born in Bethlem, or the flight to Egypt
I think those were penned in by the Gospel authors to make their story about Jesus a better fit with some of the OT prophecies
>OT Prophecies
>OT prophecies lining up with history
Prophecies don't prove anything
>An odd historical event completely chsnging succesful people's lives that otherwise would be more content with their previous status
That proves nothing
>Extremely right historical records that if fed into probability calculus yield plausible outcomes
No they don't
>Prophecies don't prove anything
What does prove things?
Arguments prove things
The argument is that there is divine prophecy.
What's your proof that a prophecy is divine
Analytic truth.
Calling yourself everyone doesn't raise the value of your opinion
This is a misconstrual because miracles occur outside of rather than as part of natural law, so talking about frequency is incoherent.
Of course, it's very easy to determine it was just a lie when you know that those things just don't happen because you know there's no evidence those things happen because you know all the evidence of those things is just lies because you know those things just don't happen. In fact, under those circumstances, it's straight up impossible for evidence to the contrary to exist!
Didn't say it was a lie, it could have happened
just need to know how you go about figuring out which it was
You go about figuring out which it was by arbitrarily deciding it didn't happen.
>it could have happened
Really? You believe it could have happened?
>You go about figuring out which it was by arbitrarily deciding it didn't happen.
Okay, but what's your method?
>Really? You believe it could have happened
Yeah, I'm not a naturalist. I believe in ghosts, I've had serval spooky encounters. Magic is real.
>Okay, but what's your method?
This attempt to muddy the waters is great and all, but there is nothing esoteric about historical methods. The evidence of Christ's miracles is similar to the evidence that Julius Caesar crossed the rubicon river. This isn't something we just made up for no reason.
>Yeah, I'm not a naturalist
Great to hear it, that means your fundamental argument of "they must be lying because that just couldn't be true" no longer works, looks like the evidence has swung strongly in favor of Christianity. The neutral middle ground you are pretending to occupy does not exist, your objection is metaphysical and not epistemological, it collapses with the concession of naturalism.
Do historians believe it's an historical fact that Jesus walked on water?
I don't know anyone named "historians" so I couldn't say what he believes.
I'm talking about the guys who use this thing a lot: "historical method", who figured out Caesar crossed the rubicon, etc
Do those guy also use the historical method to figure out that Jesus walked on water
if not, why not?
Yes.
What's the analytic proof for prophecies proving god
How does the Cambrian explosion prove the existence of a God?
Self serving prophecy is still prophecy. If your enemy says you will die, do you just ignore them, or do you think to yourself, "oh shit, this guy might try to kill me". Likewise, when an egregore says that it loves you, you should praise it, not condemn it.
I wish that demented piece of shit drowned
He's very caring and benevolent. Especially towards Ukraine.
Remember the Russians are fighting for their country.
Ukrainians are fighting so that Soros can flood Ukraine with naggers and muslims that will rape their mothers, daughters, and sisters, and then Bill Gates can vaccinate their newborn babies.
At this point hohol is a compliment. This is how retarded Ukrainians are.
they should do one of those chud drawings out of this picture
>OT prophecies
half of those prophecies are simply being retrofitted constantly by reinterpreting what the different terms refer to as soon as your old interpretations are invalidated, like claiming that Edom now refers to America or whatever.
With the other half, anyone who isn't retarded can see the human hands behind their artificial implementation. The israelites only get to occupy Palestine, rule other nations etc. because of you Christnaggers serving them.
>to the Swinburnian probability Calculus
is that the napkin math where they calculated how likely it is for Jesus to fulfill this and that many peophecies? That just shows that the authors of the New Testament were quote-mining the Tanakh to write this fictional story.
Whomever made this meme is weird for not putting the top smugjak or wojak or whatever it’s called in the top right. The arrangement of the meme is weird and inconsistent.
Faith is trust in God. It has never meant some irrational commitment to an unjustified belief.
>There's so much evidence of Christianity being true
There's much more evidence of it being wrong and islam being true.
>What even is faith?
Doing something like this and believing you're in the right
>The wheel of the rack was turned, pulling Askew along the device and lifting her so that she was held taut about 5 inches above its bed and slowly stretched. In her own account written from prison, Askew said she fainted from pain and was lowered and revived.[17] This procedure was repeated twice. Sir Anthony Knyvett, then Lieutenant of the Tower, refused to carry on torturing her, left the tower, and sought a meeting with the king at his earliest convenience to explain his position and also to seek his pardon, which the king granted.
>Wriothesley and Rich set to work themselves.[18] They turned the handles so hard that Anne was drawn apart, her shoulders and hips were pulled from their sockets and her elbows and knees were dislocated. Askew's cries could be heard in the garden next to the White Tower where the Lieutenant's wife and daughter were walking. Askew gave no names and her ordeal ended when the Lieutenant ordered her to be returned to her cell.[19]
Anne Askew wikipedia page
Does this mean Communism is a religion?
Because Communists did much worse, and they did it according to their "holy" books - unlike these sick people who tortured and killed in the name of God who commanded us to love one another.
Not him but communism is a government.
That's an Anabaptist who was tortured to death just for having read the Bible by Roman Catholics.
Not even Protestantism. Catholics consider anything not in their religion protestantism, but Protestantism is an actual Catholic Church that simply protesting Catholicism. Actual Christians do not do this, they just believe the Bible to keep Jesus' religion pure as he commanded the church to do as his bride. Not have to be corrupted with doctrines of anti-theologies toward particular aggressive christian groups (like Babylon/Rome).
The Eurasian-African continent is a Slave continent and the Western American continent is the Free continent.
The Christian faith is the only one that rewards you of God. Faith in Jesus alone.
Faith is the kind of creative as well as ability to destroy ability that comes from courage to believe in something that seems defeated by unbelievers who claim it isn't true, but you can clearly see it is the truth and it comes from God despite all the claims from people claiming to have governing authorities such as evil Fact Checking agencies in governments. Those need shut down and ignored by the entire world.
God is a Creator. He is also a Destroyer. He wants us to do everything we can as a Creator and when exhausted of every option, then to rely on Him for to Destroy.
Vengeance is God's, He will repay.
I see lots of buildings around town, especially south side that get demolished. I wish they would leave the South side alone which contains old history and go someplace else. If you can't exhaust your options to work within old historical buildings, then obviously you don't care about LULZ at all. Or God.
Still don't get how you make the leap from Jesus fulfilling prophecies, to him being God
Jesus being a powerful wizard with the desire to cause the data we are trying to explain, also explains all the facts
We don't have to prove it. Jesus certainly never did.
We just wait on God to kill you after.
The evidence is manifested by what you are creating. Not by what you are destroying.
I am making a prophecy: "The son of God will make a cup of coffee with a pinch of pepper in it"
brb
Okay, I am back, and I have made... A cup of coffee with some pepper in it
How could I possibly have fulfilled the prophecy, if I wasn't the son of God?
you may all be sons of God
but I am THE son of God
No, but seriously. How could the prophecy have been fulfilled...
The best explanation is that God told be the future, then it came to pass.
What do you think is the 2nd best explanation?
What do you think is the 2nd best explanation?
The bible talks about this. It's called, "making a name for yourself". This is why the tower of babel fell, and everyone was scattered. That is why there is an anointed one. Jesus. It's to stop people from constantly reinventing God.
It's why you have a giant list of who begot who. Adam to Abraham to Moses and so on and so forth. But even after all of this, we still have Joseph Smith and Muhammad (peace be upon him), because people just can't stop making a name for themselves.
Where two or more gather in my name, there am I with them.
You "making a name for yourself" is a greater prophecy, and a more usefull prophecy, than you getting a cup of coffee in some one off event. That is why people "believe" in it, more than they believe in you.
Why don't you believe Joseph Smith talked to an angel?
you don't have any proof of him lying
Yeah I do. You on the other hand have "dude trust me"
The absolute state of atheism KEK
Joseph Smith died a martyr. Why would he die for a lie?
He died shooting back.
Prophecy: "Christianity will grow"
Christianity doesn't grow, and nobody cares
or
Christianity grows, and then this is proof of some guy rising from the dead 2000 years ago
???
I just don't get why someone getting 1 thing right, must mean the other things they say is also true
real silly thinking
Friendly reminder to all of you that good arguments are counted as a form of evidence.
Faith isn't making a leap of logic Faith is trust. If you have Faith you trust God. That's it.
bump
True Faith consists of three parts knowledge, ascent, and confidence.