What are Hungarians? Magyarized Celts? Magyarized Illyrians? Magyarized Bavarians?
What are Hungarians? Magyarized Celts? Magyarized Illyrians? Magyarized Bavarians?
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Magyarized celts with a bit of slavic and bavarian admixture
Is that so? So would you say Czechs are Slavicized Celts and Austrians Germanized Celts? And they're all the same people?
Bit of all of these and some slavs probably with the main variance being where in Hungary a given Hungarian is from since there is so much admixture. Roman Pannonia used to be a border region and so only part of it had a significant Romanized population with the Eastern part having none.
i saw there was a genetic study and it said 1/3 of czech men were 'genetically celtic'
I don´t understand Hungary either OP. From what I get they are a hodgepodge of Celts/Slavs/Germans but for some reason decided to adapt the language of their conqueror and not much else. This language being an alien, Turkic one. Why did they do that? There are lots of instances of Europeans being subjugated by foreign powers but Hungary seems unique in their embracing of Magyar as their national language.
Or was it forced on them?
>Why did they do it
It's not a conscious choice. They did it for the same reason Africans are all speaking English or French now. Economic incentives and opportunity do it.
>I don´t understand Hungary either OP. From what I get they are a hodgepodge of Celts/Slavs/Germans but for some reason decided to adapt the language of their conqueror and not much else. This language being an alien, Turkic one. Why did they do that? There are lots of instances of Europeans being subjugated by foreign powers but Hungary seems unique in their embracing of Magyar as their national language.
Hungarian is not a Turkic language, it's Uralic just like Finnish and Estonian.
It does have Turkic, Iranic and Yeniseian loanwords dating back to the Huns, Panonian Avars and the Uralic Magyars.
There is not a single person in Hungary who hasn't some german or slavic blood in his veins. The term is best used to refer to anyone who considers himself hungarian. The supposed greatest poet of the nation was a slovakian peasant who magyarized himself.
They probably originated from a tribe who spoke some kind of Proto-Uralic, then split and went on to become a steppenagger horde similar to Turks and Mongolians. This horde roamed the great Eurasian Steppe for centuries, migrating back and forth from east to west. Some of them stayed in the Carpathian Basin and the surrounding mountains, while the majority kept going back to the Asia. During this migratory period, they came in contact with various other steppenagger tribes and other Asiatic peoples, and their language started to get influenced by those they came in contact with, thus all the Turkic and Persian loanwords. They also kept establishing proto-states, with it's location constantly shifting towards the west. Then they finally came into the Carpathian Basin which was ripe for conquest, as it was a largely ungoverned and uncivilized territory stuck between the Western and Eastern civilizations. They quickly subdued the then indigenous Slavs and other such mongrels, then went on to raid across the continent in both directions. They were promptly stopped by the Franks and the Byzantines, and half of them took up Christianity and massacred the other half who wanted to remain pagan, so there went half of their original gene pool. From that point on they started mixing with the remaining Slavs and newly arrived Germans, especially after the Mongols wiped out most of what remained from the Asiatic gene pool. This was also true for their language, with Latin also added to the mix. And this is how it pretty much stayed for the remainder of their history. Now they are genetically a Germanic and Slavic mixed people group sprinkled with some regressive Asian genes. You can still spot a couple of them with slanted eyes and generally Asian features, but it's becoming more and more rare. As an ethnic identity, it's pretty much tied to the language and shared common history and culture. If you speak Hungarian and want to be Hungarian, you are Hungarian.
IIRC when the Magyar first moved into the Carpathian Basin the main group had around 40,000 fighting men, so yeah they made up a fraction of the population since they likely had a total population not exceeding 150,000. This late origin and adoption of feudalism actually meant all of these men were considered "knights" as the Magyar rode on horseback. This gave Hungary a strange class makeup where they had hundreds of thousands of lesser nobles labeled as "royal servants" that were essentially a proto-middle-class since so many Hungarians could trace ancestry back to the original invasion force. There's another Magyar group in Transylvania that off the top of my head invaded at a different time and allied with the main Magyar force, but I don't recall if their numbers were included in the 40,000 figure I remember reading, which again is based on very foggy memory from a hungarian-latin source I read years ago for a paper.
I do think it's a bit silly to say they were "promptly" defeated, considering they pretty much raided for about 160 years, and were raiding from Spain to Greece in the period from around 900-960. This was because they could levy far more horsemen than their neighbors, in a period where 40,000 was really a pretty massive amount of men.
>I do think it's a bit silly to say they were "promptly" defeated, considering they pretty much raided for about 160 years, and were raiding from Spain to Greece in the period from around 900-960. This was because they could levy far more horsemen than their neighbors, in a period where 40,000 was really a pretty massive amount of men.
Fair point, poor choice of words on my part. The fact that they managed to resist further incursions and were pretty much able to keep the country they carved out for themselves for this long is a testament to their toughness.
That had nothing to do with riding horses, that was not considered a sign of nobility. Hungary never had "knights" or Western European style feudalism in general.
Me when I just say you’re wrong in your summarization of a niche subject you wrote a paper on years ago without providing any explanation or elaboration.
This is a decent summary. One thing to note, which I read once, is that the original invaders, while already being a minority in the new lands, were also a mix. IIRC only about half of them had Uralic/asiatic blood. By the time they arrived in the carpathians, they had mixed with many East Slavs. So the original invaders were already mixed, meaning that asiatic genetic component faded even faster than it otherwise would.
my best bet would be native pannonians who were eventually absorbed into whatever empires ruled over them at any given time
Who exactly were the native pannonians?
What is a Celtic gene?
What is a Germanic gene?
What is a Slavic gene?
exactly, Pannonia was a crossroads between Italicized celts, slavs, germans, and others, plus the magyar component which would make the average hungarian roughly 5% asiatic today. But the thing with the celt, slav, and german components is that with groups like the Czechs who are Slavs having large celtic portions is that these groups are so close they are barely distinguishable at most non-autistic levels anyways so determining a precise level of admixture among Hungarians is difficult. Ultimately celts, slavs, and germans are genetic siblings and admixture between those groups just isn't that important to determine compared to determining outside admixture, which produces greater differences in phenotype and genotype. For example, southern Europeans and their more significant Anatolian farmer component, or areas of Russia where there is a greater admixture with asiatics.
No clue but whoever the fuck they bred with gave like 30% of their population the gene for lactose intolerance. I'm blaming the Mongols.
>T. Family's all Anglo except for my grandfather's Hungarian side. Most logical explanation for why I'm cursed.
Nigga mongol horsemen subsisted ENTIRELY on fermented Mare's milk when they were doing long hauls over the steppe. That's why they brought so many extra horses with them, some were mares and produced Milk. As long as there was grazing land for the horses, Mongol warriors never went hungry. The milk would sustain them until they could reach some place to hunt and trade for supplies. Mongols never would've got anywhere if they were lactose intolerant.
I'm 90% British Isles 10% Hungarian and idk wtf you're talking about. I'm lactose TOLERANT. Fully dairy for my 200g of protein makes me digest better.
Brothers! Lmao I’m all British too and then have one grandfather who was Hungarian-Slovak. It’s funny to see this many mutts with the same lineage in one place.
I’m lactose tolerant though.
hey retard, even mongols alcohol has milk in it
Germanized Magyar/Celt hybrids.
How are they germanized?
their organization, social behaviors, and militarism is Central European in origin. They were Germanized by contact with Austria and Germany.
They recognized the efficiency and rationale of German ways and adjusted their society from Slav-Bulgar to German.
Perhaps that’s true in a sense that Magyars adopted German forms of government (Im not sure). However, they are worlds apart from Germans in terms of language, culture, ethos, and history. There are some Magyar nationalists that think they’re closer to Turkey and Kazakistan rather than any European. I would not say they’re Germanized because Germanization would imply adopting the language, culture, etc. Genetically, however, they have a lot of German blood from German settlers invited in over time. Those Germans either remained German or were Magyarized.
There are no magyar nationalists who identify with asiatics over Europeans.
There absolutely are. It’s called Turanism. Despite being Slovak and German, some of these boys really do believe they’re from the steppe. It’s kind of a response from Magyars for being shit on by their neighbors for being “asiatic” and “steppe.” I read an article on /int/ the other day where a political party leader in Hungary said they were very pleased to get a state visit from Turkey, calling them a closely related people and whatever.
>their organization, social behaviors, and militarism is Central European in origin
can you give examples?
>adjusted their society from Slav-Bulgar
what do you mean by this?
First, they were Celtic speakers, until about 100 AD. Then They became German speakers, and then around 600 AD they became Slavic speakers.
Subsequently the Avars and other nomadic groups that we dont know mich about conquered the area. There is a lot of theorizing that the Avars spoke a form of Hungarian, which I myself am convinced of. Modern Hungary wasnt the only olace where the language spoken by nomadic conquering groups was adopted by the settled inhabitants. In large areas of modern Moldova, Wallachia, Bulgaria, and several areas within the Carpathian mountain range, the settled people at one time or another spoke various conquerors languages. I think Tartar is still spoken in Romania, Ukraine, Bulgaria along the coast of thr Black Sea.
Pannonia was a recepticle for whatever wandering tribe wanted to graze their horses - Illyrian tribes, Dacians, Celts, Steppe Iranics like Iazyges, Alans, Germanics like Gepids and Goths, proto-Mongol/Turkic Huns and Avars, Magyars, Turkic Cumans, and of course the settled Romans, Vlachs, and Germans.
Some of these left small contributions and others large, but over time they’ve become part of the Central European genetic gradient and don’t stand out like a wandering horde would have when they first settled there. Any reductionist answer isn’t 100% accurate
Forgot to mention slavs as well. It really was a clusterfuck
Magyarized Bavarians who speak Latin
On that topic how Uralic/Magyar are modern-day Hungarians anyway?
No but really.
It really is about 0%. I think I read somewhere that there’s some trace ancestry, with haplogroups and some admixture, in about 4% of Hungarians at most. The conquerors that came in the 900s were already mixed with a bunch of East Slavs and other steppe bros. The conquerors were also a minority amongst the slavs already there. Then many of them died from very bloody wars over the years, against the Turks and Mongols. Then they also were inviting over tons of Germans and other slavs since the Middle Ages. Now Magyars are indistinguishable from their neighbors and the ethnicity really relies on the language, culture, and being some Central European mix.
Damn, didn't expect that ngl
I thought it'd be 10-15% low but not THAT low.
It makes more sense when you see that the Magyars weren’t really a united ethnic group. They were a nomadic tribe that wondered the steppes for a long time and they took in a lot of different people on the steppe. Then by their own recorded history, they moved into the carpathian plains to find wives. They went on some raid into the Balkans or something, and when they returned, they found that the Pechnegs, or something, had raided their camps and taken all their wives. So you’ve already got a highly mixed nomadic tribe going and cutting its genetic makeup in half with a single generation in a population that vastly outnumbers them. Then that happened over 1000 years ago.
A mix of Germans and Slavs (West/East/South). They aren't closely related to people who lived there before, let alone to the original Magyars.
Hungary is actually very well sampled. The samples are all over the place. Even samples from the same era.
There's more than 500 samples from ancient and medieval Hungary. They are all very diverse. Especially in early Middle Ages with the arrival of Avars. You have guys looking like Greeks, Germanics, Slavs, Celts and Mongols buried in the same place.
What am I looking at here
Genetic distance compared to the average hungarian
Then what’s happening with the szekely in central Romania? They seem to not be very related to the average Hungarian.
Idk, but language is not neccessarly correlated with genetic makeup. There are theories that the szekely have different origins compared to the rest of the hungarians. Or it could be some kind of artefact due to a poor sample size.
I’m sorry I’m ignorant of this, but could you fill me in on some of these different origins for the Szekely?
There are theories that they are remnants of huns, or descendants of a turkic tribe that joined the hungarians, or just hungarians who arrived there at a different time than the rest. It's all just guesswork based on medieval legends and cultural differences tho. None of these are supported by actual scientific evidence, but it's also not disproven.
Very interesting. I will do more research, thank you.
What should be the green area be named? Also, what's going on in Moldova?
I'm guessing it's the cuman element. They spent a lot of time in the area and got later integrated into Hungary.
It's based on Y-DNA similarity or something.
Distance to: Hungarian
Hungarian Celts (averages):
Distance to: HUN_EIA_Hallstatt
Distance to: HUN_EIA
Distance to: HUN_IA_La_Tene
Distance to: HUN_La_Tene
Have some Avar leaders:
Distance to: HUN_early_Avar_military_leader
Distance to: HUN_early_Avar_leader
Distance to: HUN_middle_Avar
Distance to: HUN_Conqueror_elite
Distance to: HUN_Conqueror_commoner
This is somewhat misleading as it's just average of all samples. Some look pretty similar to elites, others are more southern, which is why the average falls close to Balkan Turks.
huh, that's quite deep into Bavaria
Pro tip: burials with avar cultural artifacts outnumber Magyar burials by about 15:1. Hungarians are avars mixed with Slavs who accepted a Uralic ruling class as it was similar to their avar origins and both claimed descent from Attila
so then why would they speak magyar?