Were the Jianzhou Jurchens more under the control of the Chinese Ming Dynasty or the Korean Joseon?

I read that Joseon and Ming were constantly competing over their influence on the Jurchen tribes, so I'd just like to know which had the most influence over the tribes. Obviously before Nurhaci united the tribes and began his rebellion.

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  1. 1 year ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    Prior to Nurhaci's rebellion, were the Jurchen tribes under the administration of the Joseon or MIng?

  2. 1 year ago
    Anonymous

    The Joseon surrendered and gave up the competition over control of Jianzhou Jurchens north of the Yalu and Tumen rivers, after Mentemu capitulated to the Ming.

    after Mentemu's capitulation, Joseon Korean officials literally referred to the Jianzhou Jurchen territories north of the Yalu and Tumen rivers as part of Sanggok (the superior country, aka Ming China), and Ming China and Joseon delimitated their official borders as the yalu and tumen rivers.

    There were some Jurchen lands south of the Tumen and yalu rivers on the Korean peninsula in Hamgyong province today. Koreans had to doctor earlier records and maps to claim they belonged to Goryeo during the Jin and Yuan dynasties (When they were in fact under Jurchen Jin control and part of Jurchen lands in the Yuan) in order to get Ming to agree to the border.

    The only person who could claim Jianzhou Jurchens were under Joseon rule is a delusional Korean nationalist.

    The Ming literally ruled the entire Jilin region as the Nurgan regional military commission in the Yongle reign and literally created the Jianzhou Juchen guard (weisuo) and Korea didn't use the wei suo guard system.

    The Ming appointed the generals like Li Chengliang who managed the Jianzhou Jurchen guard.

    • 1 year ago
      Anonymous

      The Ming also had Jurchen eunuchs like Yishiha who served the Ming court and led an expedition into the Amur regions in modern day Russia and erected the Yongning temple stele.

      Korean states never owned non-Korean eunuchs or concubines.

    • 1 year ago
      Anonymous

      The Ming also had Jurchen eunuchs like Yishiha who served the Ming court and led an expedition into the Amur regions in modern day Russia and erected the Yongning temple stele.

      Korean states never owned non-Korean eunuchs or concubines.

      The Ming dynasty had Jurchen eunuchs, Korean eunuchs and Vietnamese eunuchs and concubines from all three of those peoples at the same time during the Yongle emperor (both Manchuria and Vietnam were ruled by the Yongle emperor).

  3. 1 year ago
    Anonymous

    Oh, this is a chinkspammer thread. He likes to make threads pretending to ask a question so he can spam his shit.

    • 1 year ago
      Anonymous

      Idk i've seen genuine questions about the Jurchens couple of weeks ago without spam so im guessing op was genuine

    • 1 year ago
      Anonymous

      homie im being genuine im not the spammer

      • 1 year ago
        Anonymous

        Uh-huh.

    • 1 year ago
      Anonymous

      ^this here

      • 1 year ago
        Anonymous

        homosexual not every china related thread is generated from the spammer, where do you see walls of text?

        • 1 year ago
          Anonymous

          The Joseon surrendered and gave up the competition over control of Jianzhou Jurchens north of the Yalu and Tumen rivers, after Mentemu capitulated to the Ming.

          after Mentemu's capitulation, Joseon Korean officials literally referred to the Jianzhou Jurchen territories north of the Yalu and Tumen rivers as part of Sanggok (the superior country, aka Ming China), and Ming China and Joseon delimitated their official borders as the yalu and tumen rivers.

          There were some Jurchen lands south of the Tumen and yalu rivers on the Korean peninsula in Hamgyong province today. Koreans had to doctor earlier records and maps to claim they belonged to Goryeo during the Jin and Yuan dynasties (When they were in fact under Jurchen Jin control and part of Jurchen lands in the Yuan) in order to get Ming to agree to the border.

          The only person who could claim Jianzhou Jurchens were under Joseon rule is a delusional Korean nationalist.

          The Ming literally ruled the entire Jilin region as the Nurgan regional military commission in the Yongle reign and literally created the Jianzhou Juchen guard (weisuo) and Korea didn't use the wei suo guard system.

          The Ming appointed the generals like Li Chengliang who managed the Jianzhou Jurchen guard.

          Why are you like this, chinkspammer?

          • 1 year ago
            Anonymous

            I would never suggest that asiaticreans had control of non-Koreans you dumb peon, not even as a rhetorical question.

          • 1 year ago
            Anonymous

            Why do hate Koreans so much?

          • 1 year ago
            Anonymous

            Maybe reread your post again, you schizophrenic moron, since there was nothing in >14364452 that said Koreans had control over non-Koreans (outside a line about Koreans ostensibly inventing a fantastical claim that they did).

            Why do hate Koreans so much?

            Yeah, it's funny in its own way, like the neighbouring society that ostensibly had the best historical relationship with China still gets the Japan treatment lol
            >Yeah but during the Bong dynasty warlord Ching Chou had 1,000 Korean PoWs castratated and married 10,000 Korean women to his soldiers before...

          • 1 year ago
            Anonymous

            read the OP moron

            https://i.imgur.com/DZSwiNQ.jpg

            I read that Joseon and Ming were constantly competing over their influence on the Jurchen tribes, so I'd just like to know which had the most influence over the tribes. Obviously before Nurhaci united the tribes and began his rebellion.

      • 1 year ago
        Anonymous

        Yep, I feel sorry for him. He leads a sad life.

  4. 1 year ago
    Anonymous

    The Ming had official sway as the parental nation but Koreans were regularly involved. The Ming stationed their garrison properly in Liaoning and had an official command post in there. Every time the Koreans made their routine military insertions into Jurchen lands they had to first make connections with the Ming. Regardless the final decisions were up to each nation. We see that the Joseon made regular expeditions above the Tumen because the Jurchens were lawless trespassers regardless of what both nations decided to thought of them. I think it wasn't some hardline code realistically because during the reign of Sejo 8th year, he conducted an illegal operation above the tumen despite Ming disagreement and there wasn't any harsh repercussions.

    • 1 year ago
      Anonymous

      The official Ming-Joseon border was the Yalu and Tumen rivers. Korea officially recognized China's borders at the Yalu and tumen and that the Jurchens there were supposed to be subjects of China.

      • 1 year ago
        Anonymous

        Yea no shit. Did you even read the post?

    • 1 year ago
      Anonymous

      Thank you for the detailed description, how common were joint Joseon-Ming military expeditions into Jurchen turf?

      https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E6%88%90%E5%8C%96%E7%8A%81%E5%BA%AD/54585840

      This event is particularly interesting to me because it describes both Korean and Chinese participating in a raid against the tribes.

      • 1 year ago
        Anonymous

        It seems pretty rare from what i've read. In 1479 the Koreans answered the call again with a force of 4000 under a different reign. There was a fierce divide in the Joseon court about how to handle this matter. Because there was such a political domination of the Jianzhou Jurchens by the Ming court, Joseon politicians often argued that this was solely a Chinese problem. It's not as if the Chinese helped that much when the Jurchens raided Hamyong either so that didn't help the matter. Looks like these raids didn't stop the Jurchens from doing it again either decades later.

        • 1 year ago
          Anonymous

          Jesus dude this is incredibily elaborate, thank you so much, where do you find your information btw? Most english sources only provide a surface level description and my 2nd gen ass can't read Chinese or Korean. Any books to recommend?

          • 1 year ago
            Anonymous

            > 2nd gen ass can't read Chinese or Korean.
            Do you have atleast a fundamental knowledge in any of the two languages? I used to just filter search straight out of the 'veritable records of Joseon' and used google translate until i became proficient in the language.

          • 1 year ago
            Anonymous

            Unfortunately not, but I'll just grind duolingo and then I'll do what you did

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