I was always under the impression that the experience we live is proof of something and the presence of something is proof of a creator of something because after all, something can't be created from nothing.
I don't understand what arguments about God altering reality to satisfy a human's concept of good and evil have to do with anything.
Sorry if I'm a few steps behind in your argument.
>I was always under the impression that the experience we live is proof of something
It isn't. >and the presence of something is proof of a creator of something
It's not. >because after all, something can't be created from nothing.
Complete asspull of an assertion.
>>I was always under the impression that the experience we live is proof of something >It isn't.
It is. >>and the presence of something is proof of a creator of something >It's not.
It is.
after all, something can't be created from nothing. >Complete asspull of an assertion.
A completely logical assertion.
>experience we live is proof of something and the presence of something is proof of a creator of something because after all, something can't be created from nothing.
That doesn't follow, something could have always existed, and the existence of a creator doesn't mean it is still around or that it isn't completely blind event
>something can't be created from nothing
It's pretty simple then: nothing never existed. If things exist, then it proves that there never was nothing. This also means that there's no creator needed. Just an endless stream of somethings.
You're right that coming from nothing is unintuitive, but I've always felt a conscious, willful God as a first cause just as unintuitive. He's supposed to have just existed forever, thinking to himself? Why? How is that more satisfying of an explanation than the universe existing forever.
which is why reality is a fractal/fibonacci's sequence, recursive logic, self-perpetuating system
reality is paradoxical, it's simultaenously logical and simultaenously not
all of reality is constantly moving because there is no truth within reality, no particle or matter can remain still, because no part of matter is actually 'fixed' and therefor truly true
the 'universe' is a conscious being self-realizing the complete void of logic time and time again, and then imagining this beautiful world with hot girls and beasts to be hunted cause why not :*~~
>were where you >when you realize >universe is a fractal
Because Calvinism is the only denomination that makes sense given these paradigms. >if God real why people die?
because God said so >if God real why kid get cancer?
because God said so >if God real why natural disasters happen?
because God said so >if God real, why?
because God said so.
Everyone else is just in a constant state of mental gymnastics and self contradiction.
Because God said so is an argument every other denomination makes at some point though. You just have a liking for Calvinism because you see it as the most hardcore option, and this is LULZ.
because the fundamental nature of existence is loving, even the suffering (which god takes ultimate responsibility for) was an act of love involved in our growth
>Why is this?
Brainrot, unironically
Almost anybody on earth regardless of belief can agree that life is inherently shit and yet their brain completely short circuits at the mere mention of antinatalism >life is le heckin' gift, bro!! suffering is good, actually!
>at the mere mention of antinatalism
I never said anything about that.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
it's the logical conclusion if life is inherently suffering
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
no it’s not but you wish it was because it would absolve you of any responsibility for your actions. seethe and rage existence and god some more about your limitations and the consequences of your actions
no most people actually don’t believe life is shit, you wish they did because you want this to be meaningless so you don’t have to deal with the consequences of your actions. cry and seethe some more about the reality of suffering, the rest of us will be using it for what it was meant to do. make us stronger.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>suffering makes you... le stronger!!
cringe and larp, whatever gets you through life though anon
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
everyone who sees this i want you to witness what a legitimately evil person looks like. he wants to be weak and he reviles strength wherever he sees it. please just go 0/1 irl and take your nihilism and self hatred with you.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>reviles strength >strength is the ability to self delude and cope with an existence that is inherently, fundamentally shit
kek
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
but it’s not, do you understand how fundamental the interactions we observe in this universe are? do you understand we have the capacity to love? to sacrifice ourselves for the greater good? to improve our brothers and sisters lives? to appreciate qualia and all its wonders? your a sick deluded man let taking out his rage on others by trying to make them as sad as he is. again, do everyone a favor and go 0/1
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
cope as hard as you want anon. i think the reason you're seething so hard is that you know you're deluding yourself. >go 0/1
you're on LULZ zoomer, just tell me to kill myself
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
no i’m seeing at how much it must suck for my brothers and sisters to deal with you irl, you must be a constant drain on anyone and everyone around you and it makes me sick
This is a missquote. Epicurus was a deist and this argument is against Providence (and religion), not against the existence of God. See the original quote in Lactantius.
Provide the context or shut up. You idiots who waltz into a thread and start handing out assertions and instructions for looking things up are not adding any value. Go waste someone else's time. Assertion rejected.
Just because that power isn't illimited don't mean they can't help in anyway nor that their influence won't help you to improve and be able to deal better with things life throw at you
You are too obsessed with the fantasy of an omni marry sue micromanaging and baby-sitting your life to umderstand reality
>Then whence cometh evil
Suppose God is omnipotent. Then, maybe, he has a wiser view of evil than we do. Maybe he doesn’t even think of it as evil at all. Maybe, it’s a necessary counterpoint to good and consciousness. Maybe, rejecting something because it’s “evil” is evil in itself. Maybe, if evil was loved, it would appear more like a child or a woman who needs guidance and rejecting it might make one, in time, less good and more confused.
There is no point religion can make that is a valid excuse to the human reason as to why a child would have to die horribly. There is nothing religion can say that would ease the pain of a parent who saw their child being torn by dogs alive.
You can say it's part of a bigger plan all you want, I say it's stupid, and that no bigger plan made by an all powerful god would warrant the suffering of this child.
that’s laughably prideful but here i’ll enlighten you. the suffering you witness is as a consequence of god wanting to have as many children with free will as possible. and while he could bring in angels into heaven for eternity, within the mind of god is the idea of you. you would have went psychotic in a vein much worse than lucifer if you were brought into heaven but if god gives you a little space and time (ignorance and limitations) you can safely be brought into eternal existence without hurting yourself or others in any meaningful way. in doing so the story goes god took responsibility for all the suffering our creation required because he loves each of his children equally. it’s super simple and it’s annoying your type has to have this explained every generation like we haven’t had this figured out for thousands of years,
Why should I care if he takes responsability at the end ? The child will still have suffered. Even if he's granted eternal life, he'll still have been torn by dogs unjustifiably. And if God somehow changes that by cancelling this experience because he's all powerful, why make the child suffer in the first place ?
You say it's simple yet you can't even properly wrap your mind about this
no any suffering we endure is justified because we needed ignorance and limitations (the progenitors of suffering) to be brought into existence without going suicidal or malevolent. anything you experience is nothing in the context of eternal suffering (which you have the capacity to inflict on yourself and others if given eternity) YOU can’t seem to wrap your head around the fact the suffering of this world isn’t bad in an eternal context where you are free to grow forever.
>a child dying by dogs isn't that bad bro
Yeah ok, not convinced your God isn't malevolent, nor that you're a better human than me for uttering such revolting bullshit.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
i mean if your an atheistic biological essentialist who believes value only arises from observers AND you value the kid then yea it’s super sad that life was snuffed out for no reason. BUT if eternity is real, that little kid was strong enough to endure it and still reach truth without letting anger at their suffering get in the way. it’s adorable atheist try to pull dead kids as a moral high ground when they themselves only put subjective value on the child.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>i mean if your an atheistic biological essentialist who believes value only arises from observers AND you value the kid then yea it’s super sad that life was snuffed out for no reason
Thanks for admitting that
>BUT if eternity is real, that little kid was strong enough to endure it and still reach truth without letting anger at their suffering get in the way
You still have to torture a child to get to there, which is retarded
i’d disagree, i think you and all my brothers and sisters are worth it and we will prove our father right. seethe and cope with your own fear, self hatred and weakness
You're contradicting yourself. If you value us and the life of children, then there is no point to the torture we are submitted to. You value our hypothetical souls and hypothetical eternal lives more than the mortal ones even though you have no proofs nor guarantees they would arise. And EVEN SO, I say that if we'd eventually get to those hypothetical eternal perfect lives, there are not worth the suffering of the innocent. They are not worth the tribulations and pains some children are submitted to
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
yea no i understand your position perfectly. there is to much suffering for god to be good. i’m saying that’s a laughably absurd statement in the face of eternity. none of us our innocent and you seem locked into this material world as the end all be all. yes suffering is worth it. cry and seethe but it is. when you get to heaven ask those kids if it was worth it to them and bask in their glory. if god has existed eternally than the reality of suffering is a mechanism to maintain that existence. just let it go dude, accept that all the evil in the world is your fault because you needed it to brought into existence without going insane, thank god and enjoy what existence has to offer
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>accept that all the evil in the world is your fault because you needed it to brought into existence without going insane
Why not just create beings that can be brought in without going insane?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
he has? but the reality of a self with free will is that we have the capacity to reject truth (psychosis) which will erode our ability of reason and lead to our dissolution, it is an eternal danger to the nature of a self but you can gain the strength to not have it be a problem any more.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Your argument is laughable and
>accept that all the evil in the world is your fault because you needed it to brought into existence without going insane
Why not just create beings that can be brought in without going insane?
immediately contradicts the benevolent and all powerful aspect of God. I mean by your description and logic, God looks like the antichrist. A demon asking for a sacrifice in exchange for a perceived good as reward.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
he looks like the antichrist by putting his children in the right situation to grow without eternally harming themselves or others? no it sounds like your mad your not omnipotent and free from consequences
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>giving a child to the dogs or to be raped to death is putting them in the right situation
Then how come some are tested differently than others ? Why are some lives extinguished right at the beginning when some are almost free from torment ?
you seem like a sociopath to me because you fetishize the reality of suffering to absolve yourself of responsibility.
I'm not absolving my responsability at all, but if God is at the wheel, he's the one responsible for getting children raped to death, and I find this quite questionable
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
those differences in experience are what separates the idea of an eternally growing soul from western traditions and the perfected statues of eastern orthodoxy. i’m not going to get you to say all the suffering is good, i’m hoping to get you to realize it’s the cost of bringing you specifically into existence
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
If the price of my own existence is the absurd torment of innocent souls, then it is not worth it.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
god would disagree and i disagree, temporary suffering in the order of less than a hundred years is nothing in comparison to and eternity of love and growth
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Close your eyes, my boy. It will only hurt for a while...
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
But why not just create those children already unable to hurt themselves or others? He has the ability.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
he does? but there are other children who he loves and wants to exist eternally in love and growth with. children like me or you who needed and had the strength to endure the human experience to get a grasp of reality.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>children like me or you who needed and had the strength to endure the human experience to get a grasp of reality
Ok but why did they need it? The only reason is that he just decided they do, but as established he could have created you and me without needing it.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Also because you brush off the suffering aspect so easily I won't insist on that, but once again you make me think believers are brainwashed sociopaths. By your logic you can justify all the suffering of the world because it's nothing in the face of eternity. You're inquisition material
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
you seem like a sociopath to me because you fetishize the reality of suffering to absolve yourself of responsibility.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Now explain animal suffering. They can experience intense suffering and receive no eternal reward.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
I think it's better if you view the kid as an instrument God uses to teach us things about morality, etc
I could also add that whatever plan God has in store, he should just stop it right there because it's not worth it
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
i’d disagree, i think you and all my brothers and sisters are worth it and we will prove our father right. seethe and cope with your own fear, self hatred and weakness
no it’s just that every generation there are jackasses who think they are better than others for pointing out suffering exist. it’s been explained to you over and over again in a million different ways but you won’t accept suffering has a place in eternal existence.
It's been explained millions of times. There a multiple threads up right now with this exact quote.
The problem of evil is not something that can be solved or even adequately explained in a thread on LULZ. The fact that you two unironically think such a weighty issue can be figured out by a few anons cracking their heads together is bewildering. Here's what an actual introduction to the problem looks like (and, again, this is just an introduction): https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/evil/
>The problem of evil is not something that can be solved or even adequately explained in a thread on LULZ. The fact that you two unironically think such a weighty issue can be figured out by a few anons cracking their heads together is bewildering. Here's what an actual introduction to the problem looks like (and, again, this is just an introduction):
the problem of evil is a belief that the suffering of the world proves god can’t be good. that’s laughably absurd when talking about an eternal being trying to bring children into existence and it’s been explained to you over thousands of years in millions of different ways. nobody here is trying to solve anything because the answer is already known, you just won’t accept the answer because you’re salty you’re not omnipotent and free from consequences.
>the problem of evil is a belief that the suffering of the world proves god can’t be good
That is not what is meant by the problem of evil. It is a question, not an affirmative statement about God's non existence or lack of goodness. True believers have considered, discussed and thought about the issue deeply. The idea that you MUST be an atheist if you bring the problem up is absurd.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
The only people who bring it up are atheists trying to deboonk Christianity.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Augustine was an atheist >CS Lewis was an atheist >Aquinas was an atheist >Plantinga was an atheist
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
no those were people who had compassion (and liked to masturbate) enough to answer their generations mass of prideful pseudo intellectuals
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Incredibly self righteous post.
okay so your sayin god is good and your trying to understand the PLACE of suffering within existence? i’ve already explained it multiple times dude, it’s so he could have as many kids as possible by giving them space and time (ignorance and limitations) so they won’t eternally hurt themselves or others.
>i’ve already explained it multiple times dude
Did you ever consider that your personal explanation for a problem that the greatest minds and theologians have had difficulty with might be lacking?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
they haven’t had difficulty with it dude. they attempted to answer every braindead gotcha argument from you prideful pseudo intellectuals and that takes time. notice how your not taking a position? your real problem is your not omnipotent and free from consequences but your to much of a coward to say it out loud.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>they haven’t had difficulty with it dude.
I encourage you to actually read some of these people's biographies if you seriously think believing Christians have never experienced difficulty understanding the existence of evil.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
You're like a caveman wandering into the middle of a supermarket and asking people to solve the problem of hunting for food. You're completely surrounded by the answwr to your problem in every direction. People are even directing you correctly to the answer. But you continue to insist that the problem has not yet been solved because people in the past struggled with it.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Did you ever consider that this question is only a problem for atheists? Most have Christians have no objection to the existence of suffering. Also notice how we have shifted from "evil" to "suffering" as if the two are equal.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Did you ever consider that this question is only a problem for atheists?
No, because I am familiar with the struggles that certain Christian writers have gone through in relation to evil.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
those issues were when they were still atheistic and coming to terms with their faith. no one who believes in god is gonna run up to him and act like the suffering of earth somehow indicts him of evil.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>those issues were when they were still atheistic and coming to terms with their faith
Wrong. Read the biographies themselves. >somehow indicts him of evil
Again, for the last time, "the problem of evil" is not an affirmative statement of God's evil or non existence in the face of evil. It is general heading for a series of questions asked in relation to God's existence and the presence of evil; many of the people who ask and answer these questions are in fact seeking to gain a fuller understanding of God's goodness rather than seeking to indict Him, as you suggest.
At this point, I don't think there's much use in continuing to respond to you: you're incoherent, you repeat yourself, and you seem incapable of actually engaging with what the other person is saying. You seem genuinely convinced that your one answer is the answer that ought to stand above all the others given throughout history, even though you can't really explain yourself all that well to myself or others in this thread. Such blatant and unsubstantiated arrogance in the face of repeated, rational criticism is usually an indication of mania or a personality disorder. Either way, I'm out.
You're like a caveman wandering into the middle of a supermarket and asking people to solve the problem of hunting for food. You're completely surrounded by the answwr to your problem in every direction. People are even directing you correctly to the answer. But you continue to insist that the problem has not yet been solved because people in the past struggled with it.
Nowhere did I say I felt it personally hadn't been solved. That's a sweeping assertion on your part. I am simply saying that to dismiss the problem out of hand when it's obviously an enduring and complex issue is ridiculous.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>when it's obviously an enduring and complex issue is ridiculous
It's a solved problem.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
so your not arguing a point? your just bitching like the impotent manlet you are? either you think the problem of evil is a problem or you don’t. the people who wrote arguments against it didn’t believe it had value and even tried to help you understand while empathizing with your fee-fees. when you have something useful to posit beyond “AKSHUALLY ITS NOT THAT SIMPLE, EVEN THO YOUR RIGHT IM MORE RIGHT BECAUSE I ACKNOWLEDGE PEOPEL HAVE REALLY HAD A PROBLEM WITH THE REALITY OF SUFFERING AT ALL TIMES EVERYWHERE” feel free to post something but until then shut the FUCK up and let us with strength talk to each other
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>seething and shaking with rage >can't use elementary level grammar points >blatantly projecting his height insecurity >is most likely 20 or younger and converted from aesthetic trad tiktok edits >can't figure out why omniscience and free will can't coexist
Embarrassing
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
guys look at this dork lmao he thinks free will can’t exist with an all powerful god. i bet you saw some memes about how hard it is to explain free will and took it as a rebuttal to he observed reality of free will as opposed to showing the limits of human reason. this dumbass built his whole personality off memes he didn’t even understand LMAO your the reason we didn’t let ppl read bibles back in the day.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>g-guys look >lmao >LMAO
I believe in free will, unlike the poster you're responding to, and even I can tell you're shaking. Take a break. Cool off. Do a lap.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
no i’m excited someone finally had the balls to make that stupid and evil statement denying his own free will. i’m hoping if i hurt his feelings enough he gets but hurt and continues to engage so i can show the rest of you the type of man who says these things.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
OK, bro.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>he thinks free will can’t exist with an all powerful god
it can't, but you're welcome to try to prove it can despite failing repeatedly throughout this thread. i honestly think it's just an iq filter and you either understand it or you don't
>your the reason we didn’t let ppl read bibles back in the day.
this is not the win you think it is
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
no it’s definitely the own i think it is. you saw some memes about how we can’t use human reason to explain the reality of existence and immediately started falling into psychosis instead of understanding the limits of human reason. it would be funny if there weren’t so many who did the same thing.
but here let’s engage. free will being compatible with a big 3 God seems self evident and a natural consequence of that god’s existence, why do you think that’s not the case?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>memes about how we can’t use human reason to explain the reality of existence
i have no idea what "memes" you're talking about here. it's the only tool we have to use at all >why do you think that’s not the case?
if god both knows and has willed whatever a person will do or "choose," then the person is not freely "choosing" anything at all, regardless of how free that "choice" appears to that person subjectively. calvinists are based in a way since they're the only ones i know of that even acknowledge this at all
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
i’m going to take this from a physicist perspective because i want to help you, you will continue to get roasted if i feel this is in bad faith.
you could imagine the big bang was the beginning of creation. we could also imagine that heat death is the end result. seems deterministic right? well no because within the system is the capacity to create symmetry (in the vein of radioactive decay, each particle has an equally likely chance to decay so they will decay randomly creating indeterminacy) within the system of existence our free will acts out another indeterminacy in nature by allowing for equally possible outcomes. that doesn’t change the fact heat death is inevitable.
now on to a more theological perspective. what does free will mean in the context of a created being? it’s not omnipotence and freedom from consequences which is what you chuds want. the highest form of free will for a created being is the ability to accept or reject the reality of truth. we have that as we have the capacity to willfully go psychotic.
so yea, don’t be so confident in shit you don’t know next time.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
nowhere in this did you address a single thing i said, reread the post >what does free will mean in the context of a created being?
ability to have chosen otherwise, which is not compatible with omniscience
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
again i already explained just because an end point is known doesn’t mean the system is deterministic. i’ve already explained this to you but you might be to low IQ to understand.
no what your saying is if you don’t have the freedom to do whatever you want, whenever you want, with no consequences then you don’t have free will.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
in the case of complete omniscience it absolutely does mean the system is deterministic. if i am presented with two options, A or B, and god knows i will choose B, i have no ability to do otherwise and i MUST choose B. this shouldnt be hard >clearly define free will for you >n- nuh uh, what you're actually saying is-
too retarded to be reasoned with, maybe another anon can help you
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
you have the ability to kill yourself? you have the ability to reject truth? again i’ve already explain this to you using physics and theology, just because an end point is known doesn’t mean the system is deterministic. your to captivated by your own fetishization of suffering to under how weak and pitiful you sound. you keep repeating lies when i’ve shown you math doesn’t agree but????
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>you have the ability to kill yourself? you have the ability to reject truth?
completely predestined in accordance to god's will, refute the actual argument
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
no it’s not??? that’s the whole fucking point of free will you chud LMAO the end points are self dissolution or eternal existence (you might be able to turn yourself into an object idk) gods will is your free will, just because he knows it will go well doesn’t deny free will.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>still not addressing the actual point > if i am presented with two options, A or B, and god knows i will choose B, i have no ability to do otherwise and i MUST choose B.
explain why this is wrong
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
why do you have no ability to do otherwise just because god knows what you will do?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
because god would be wrong otherwise which is impossible
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
you don’t think you can surprise god? it’s literally why he had children, built free will and symmetry. what your not understanding is that these symmetries we break don’t change what the possible ultimate outcomes may be and god knows and is all possible paths. when presented with a choice god knows the end result of every pathway and so is never ignorant. i would really read into the literature on what the heisenberg uncertainty principle is in relation to understanding determinism.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Nice headcanon
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
pretty standard theological understanding of gods existence with the reality of free will?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
you cannot surprise someone that's literally fucking omniscient anon, what are you saying? >and god knows and is all possible paths
including which one a person would take before they ever existed, which again means they had no free "choice" to begin with
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
again dude, just because you know outcomes doesn’t mean a system is strictly deterministic. if your taking god as true and he knew you before you were born then what you are watching is the manifestation of god asking your full potential (in the mind of god) how would you like to see yourself in a co authored production of you. again dude your argument comes down to “how could it be my choice if god knew i’d do it” which is the most evil thing in the world tbh. your over here committing evil and blaming god for it? idk about you because you seem like a disgusting nerd but as for me? my actions and decisions are my own.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
genuine brainrot, i don't know how else to try to communicate this to you. good luck out there anon
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
you genuinely got rekt. good luck....kinda existing but not but angry about it, out there.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>your over here committing evil and blaming god for it
If God knew I would commit evil, and specifically put me in the scenario where I would make the choice to commit evil, than how is it not his fault for not preventing it and stacking the deck so that it happened?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
It's God fault, he should have controlled you so that you didn't have the option to choose evil.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
he didn’t stack the deck? he provided a sunset for you to choose good, the love of a mother, the strength of a friend? god said you were worth the evil once you learn.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>he provided a sunset for you to choose good
But he knew I wouldn't. Thus he specifically put me here to commit evil.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
well no, if you are really headed for dissolution then god put you here to help others learn from your evils and as a testament to how much he respects free wil
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>well no
Would be yes since in a scenario where I am helping others learn from my evil the point is the evil.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
your not the sole purpose of reality. you might choose to be evil and god can make good from your evil.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>he didn’t stack the deck?
If we both take >god knows what you are going to do
And >god specifically put you where you needed to be to make these choices
Than every choice made was on him, because I would have never chosen the other options and he knows that.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
you do understand you put YOURSELF in a lot of situations right? he could have put you in the garden and you would be bitching that it’s his fault you didn’t listen to him about the one rule. i get what your saying and it’s an immature understanding of causality/freedom.
AGAIN god knew you were going to commit evil and said once you learn the evil will have been worth it. you can see he and cry about it but that’s the reality.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>you do understand you put YOURSELF in a lot of situations right?
Did God know I would do that or not? And did he put me in a scenario where I would put myself into those situations or not? If yes to both I never really had a choice, because I was always going to choose what was determined I would choose.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
again no, that’s not how causality works. just because i know the initial and end conditions of system doesn’t mean the system is deterministic (see our own universe) try again in proving that it’s somebody else’s fault for your poor choices.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>works. just because i know the initial and end conditions of system
But God knows the middle too, he knows every point. Which means it would need to be a fully determined system.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Here's the simple question. God knows I will commit evil, this is the outcome. So can I not commit evil? Is there any choice without that outcome?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Humans can just 'not sin' but you can stop yourself from doing more sins
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
That's not the question. If God knows I will sin more, is there any scenario where I dont?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
There is no scenario where a person can just stop sinning
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Therfore i had no real choice, every sin i commit was already decided that i would commit it. And if there was no outcome where I wouldn't, than I never had a choice.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
no it wasn't decided, you're coming to conclusions based on asserts you can't show to be true.
You have the choice to move towards God or away from God,
God just knows what you will chose he isn't forcing you to make that choice
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
God knows I will do sodomy tomorrow
Is it possible for me to chose not to do sodomy tomorrow?
No, it's impossible. It would entail a contradiction. (God being wrong, when he always right)
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>God knows I will do sodomy tomorrow
just begs the question how do you know God knows you will do sodomy tomorrow?
and you don't so you cannot make that claim
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>just begs the question how do you know God knows you will do sodomy tomorrow?
If he's omnipotent he knows all. Therefore he knows I will do so.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
I don't think there is a God
this is just a problem for retards who think God knows the future
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
But if he knows I'll choose it than I never really had the choice. I could never choose the other option.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>But if he knows I'll choose
again you assert that you know he knows you will choose it but you cannot show this to be true.
and if you can't show it to be true the conclusions your asserting are also, not true
>just begs the question how do you know God knows you will do sodomy tomorrow?
If he's omnipotent he knows all. Therefore he knows I will do so.
That would only be the case if you in fact do choose it which you can't know until it happens
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Right. Problem goes away if you reject God's omniscience
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>That would only be the case if you in fact do choose it
An omnipotent being would know already, he knew I would do so long before I existed. To say otherwise would be to say God is not all knowing.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>An omnipotent being would know already
yes but he wouldn't know something is going to happen if it doesn't happen. you're asserting he would know a sin will be committed but you cannot show that sin will in fact be committed before it takes place. thats where your argument falls apart
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
So he's not omniscient then? Because an omniscient being would know exactly what and when it was going to happen.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
If God doesn't know what I am going to do than he isn't omniscient by definition.
it's exactly what was said. you're genuinely just too retarded to understand even after multiple anons tried repeatedly to explain it to you
>So he's not omniscient then? Because an omniscient being would know exactly what and when it was going to happen.
but i never said he doesn't know what you're going to do.
what was said was:
he wouldn't know something is going to happen if it doesn't happen.
For God to know something is going to happen it would have to happen, you don't seem to understand that.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Everything you said, is compatible with the hypothetical
God knows I will eat ham for breakfast -> it's impossible for me to chose cereal
Look, if this is causing you mental anguish, don't worry about it. Go to church and eat boogers or whatever you do there.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>God knows I will eat ham for breakfast -> it's impossible for me to chose cereal
God only knows you will eat ham for breakfast if you will eat ham for breakfast.
If you eat cereal then he knows you will choose cereal
why is that so hard for you to understand
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
lol
This is just you changing the hypothetical.
In the SAME hypothetical, where God KNOWS I will eat ham, it's IMPOSSIBLE for me to choose cereal.
You should agree with this.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
it would only be impossible to choose cereal if you knew that God knows you will eat ham.
but you don't have access to what God knows and thus will never be able to come to that conclusion
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
God knows I will ham. (I don't)
I sit down at my table ready to eat breakfast. (knowing nothing about God)
Then I choose to eat cereal.
Is this story possible?
No it's not. Because God cannot have false knowledge. But in the story, God was wrong about what I would choose for breakfast.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>God knows I will ham. (I don't) >Then I choose to eat cereal.
ok how do you know God knows you will eat ham if you end up eating cereal? this is where your argument breaks down.
If you choose cereal God knew you would choose cereal not ham.
your entire starting premise is wrong >But in the story, God was wrong about what I would choose for breakfast.
this is only true if you had access to what God knows, since you don't you have no way of knowing what you're saying is true you're just asserting it is
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>ok how do you know God knows
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
something that doesn't happen isn't part of 'everything'
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Right, which is why it's impossible for me to choose cereal, if God knows I will eat ham
It doesn't happen. The cereal never happens. Only ham is possible.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
both are possible God would just know which one you chose
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Aha, so God doesn't know until I make the choice?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
that again, is not what was said
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Does God know before I make the choice?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
there is no 'before' God is outside of time
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>timey whimey bullshit
You know, this doesn't help you. God being "outside time".
It's not like there's anything preventing God from entering into time, and doing stuff like miracles. He could write what I will have for breakfast on an envelope the day before
Suppose he did that
You're just making the hypothetical unnecessarily convoluted
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>It's not like there's anything preventing God from entering into time, and doing stuff like miracles
He did 2000 years ago
>You're just making the hypothetical unnecessarily convoluted
it was convoluted to begin with
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
So, like, do you think my argument against free choices succeeds or what?
God makes a note appear under my fridge, spelling out what he knows I'll have for breakfast tomorrow (nobody but God knows it's there)
I freely chose to eat cereal. (but the note under my fridge says ham)
Is this story possible?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
you have no precedent for the story so no its not possible
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Why is it impossible?
It's not like the note under my fridge is exerting a causal influence and restricting my actions.
I just chose Cereal
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
I didn't say it was impossible i said there is no precedent and just silly.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Sorry, misread your post.
>it's just silly
Way to just brush of a massive plot-hole in the God + free will story
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Way to just brush of a massive plot-hole in the God + free will story
how is you making up fake scenarios a plot hole
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
I agree the hypotheticals are made-up. I don't think God exist.
But when taken together, your beliefs entail contradictions (omniscience + free will)
You should be able to tell me why it's impossible (but you agree that it's possible)
hence: plot-hole
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
If god lied, sure.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
No, God truly knows I will chose ham.
It's just that God's knowledge doesn't cause or determine my choices. So I use my free will to chose cereal.
No contradiction.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
That not how it works. god either lied or god didn't know you would choose cereal.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
WOW
seems like there's a problem with fee will and omniscience both being true at the same time
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>God knows you will eat ham
It was stipulated in the hypothetical.
>If you choose cereal God knew you would choose cereal not ham.
This is you changing the hypothetical again
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>It was stipulated in the hypothetical.
ok so your hypothetical relies on you having knowledge you don't have and thus your hypothetical falls apart due to that >This is you changing the hypothetical again
your hypothetical falls apart so I corrected it for you
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Only God knows. Nobody having "knowledge they don't have"
The only thing that is stipulated is that God knows what I will have for breakfast. And for it to be impossible to eat something else, than the thing God knows I will it.
>your hypothetical falls apart
No, you agree with my hypothetical. That it's impossible for God to be wrong.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Only God knows. Nobody having "knowledge they don't have"
and your hypothetical relies on you knowing what God knows which is where it breaks down.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
False.
Just God knows.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Yes that is what I am saying however your hypothetical relies on you knowing what God knows
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
But whether or not I know isn't relevant. I'm still not going to choose cereal if God knows I choose ham.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
no it is relevant because your entire point is based off of you knowing what God knows you will do. however you don't have access to that
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>no it is relevant because your entire point is based off of you knowing what God knows you will do
No it isn't. The point is if God know what I will do I can't not do what God knows I will do it is impossible. Thus I never actually had a choice, even if I didn't know I didn't have a choice.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>No it isn't. The point is if God know what I will do I can't not do what God knows I will do it is impossible. Thus I never actually had a choice, even if I didn't know I didn't have a choice.
so again, God knowing what you will chose doesn't negate your ability to chose.
You can chose option 1 or 2 which ever you chose God will know.
Having that knowledge has no effect on your choice.
if you think it does feel free to show the connection
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Having that knowledge has no effect on your choice.
It does because I can never choose the option that contradicts what God knows.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>It does because I can never choose the option that contradicts what God knows.
ok how does that mean no free will
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
The choice was an illusion, I could only ever choose the option god knew I would. Thus I never actually had free will everything was determined before I existed.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>For God to know something is going to happen it would have to happen
Which is the point, if he knows I'm going to do it, than there is nothing I can do to not do it. Therefore it was never a choice.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Which is the point, if he knows I'm going to do it, than there is nothing I can do to not do it. Therefore it was never a choice.
ok then show how knowing something will happen has any effect on you choosing to do that thing
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Because I can't choose not to as God knows I will choose to. God knew long before I existed what choice I will make, thus I never really had a choice it was set in stone I will do that.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Because I can't choose not to as God knows I will choose to
but you also don't have access to what God knows >God knew long before I existed what choice I will make, thus I never really had a choice it was set in stone I will do that
This is contradictory, you said God knows what choice you will make then deny you making a choice.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>knowing something will happen has any effect on you choosing to do that thing
It just restricts the possibility space to only doing that thing.
For there to be a choice, it needs to be possible to do another thing. But it's not, else God's knowledge would be false.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>god is omniscient but actually doesn't know certain things
it's all so tiresome
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Right. Problem goes away if you reject God's omniscience
not what was said at all
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
If God doesn't know what I am going to do than he isn't omniscient by definition.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
it's exactly what was said. you're genuinely just too retarded to understand even after multiple anons tried repeatedly to explain it to you
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
What are you saying? You seemed confused, and talked about me knowing (in the hypothetical). That's not important, assume that the person in the hypothetical doesn't know. God hasn't told the person in the hypothetical what the future is gonna be, it's not like there's anything preventing him from doing that, but he hasn't
It US who know, the telling the story and stipulating what's true in the hypothetical.
We know that God knows the outcome of some future event.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
so what exactly are you confused about
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
A free choice is defined as: "the ability to do otherwise"
God knows what I will do.
It's not possible for me do otherwise.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>A free choice is defined as: "the ability to do otherwise"
did you just make that up right now? >God knows what I will do. It's not possible for me do otherwise.
You are free to make choices, God knows that choices you will freely make. You can choice otherwise but you'd also be free to change your mind God would still know
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>You can choice otherwise
I can't though, as God already knows i won't.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
then you freely chose to have ham for breakfast what are you confused about
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
I don't get why so many people think a predetermined outcome means you didn't make a choice. You still made a choice, it was just already known what the choice would be.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Right, which is why I'm a compatibilist. I also think so.
>predetermined outcome
Which is to reject the premise of the free will apologetics. And the problem of evil grows super huge
If it's possible for God to determine outcomes, and humans to still make choices, be moral agents, etc. Then he would simply determine everyone to always choose the good
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>he could have put you in the garden and you would be bitching that it’s his fault you didn’t listen to him about the one rule
Well he knew I would break it so it kinda is his fault for deliberately putting someone in a situation where you know they will defy you and then get mad about it.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
absolutely degenerate and you should feel ashamed as a man for having said it.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
So no refutation? If God knows I'm going to break the rule why would he be mad at me when I do it? The outcome was long foreseen and nothing would have changed it.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>why would he be mad at me
where are you even getting this? lol you have a cartoonish understanding of theology.
God knows you will sin thats why we have repentance
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Why would I need to repent? He already knows if he'll forgive me or not.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Because we're called to repent for our sins
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>just because
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
not what was said at all
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>why would I need to repent? >because we're called to repent
Admit you're retarded.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
glad it makes you seethe :^)
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
it’s not unfair? it’s actually the least amount of initial suffering needed to bring us into eternal existence in a healthy way.
your wailing against go for suffering but keep rejecting eternity? pick one or continue to seethe dude but you have been clearly rekt. have fun bitching about the dead babies, enjoy feeling superior cause you are “aware” of suffering more than others. just know anyone with strength will know how craven, pathetic and worthless you are when it comes to doing anything worth doing. eventually i hope you come to terms with the fact what your really saying is if i was in charge it would all be better, but wait your not perfectly good? so the evils you would allow as god would be justified but not the ones we witnesss irl? why is that? oh yea it’s cause your omnipotent and free from consequences and that’s the only reality you think is worth living in. you disgust me
i can know the end state of radioactive decay without being able to know exactly how it gets there?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Saying something is a "problem" does not mean that it's inherently negative. Do you think Maths problems are bad? The term "problem" simply indicates that the matter is complex enough to require discussion, which is what ancient theologians have done with the problem of evil since year 0. >didn’t believe it had value
Sweeping assumption on your part. Again, read their biographies and listen to their personal experiences.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Augustine was an atheist >CS Lewis was an atheist
Yes actually, that's the entire reason they wrote huge volumes of literature explaining why they converted to Christianity.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
it’s not a problem if you take eternity as real. again you are saying the reality of suffering proves there is evil in the world and how could a good god allow evil. the reason your saying that is to prove either god doesn’t exist or he is evil. it’s laughable to anyone who has any conception of what eternal existence would be like.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>the reason your saying that is to prove either god doesn’t exist or he is evil.
Uh, no. It's to provide a more effective understanding of God's goodness. See
>Augustine was an atheist >CS Lewis was an atheist >Aquinas was an atheist >Plantinga was an atheist
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
okay so your sayin god is good and your trying to understand the PLACE of suffering within existence? i’ve already explained it multiple times dude, it’s so he could have as many kids as possible by giving them space and time (ignorance and limitations) so they won’t eternally hurt themselves or others.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Why not just make kids that won't hurt themselves and others from the start?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
he does? but there are other children (like me and you) who could exist but take a little more effort on gods part. god said it was worth it, that you were worth it because he has known you for eternity in the mind of god.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>who could exist but take a little more effort on gods part
Why would it take him more effort? Couldn't he just bypass it.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
if he bypasses it it wouldn’t be you. your asking god to not use reason or logic.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Couldn't he just make me me? There's no reason he couldn't just create me with all the lessons learned.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
you wouldn’t want that? and if you want it now it’s a product of your time here on earth dude. and even when he gives it
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>you wouldn’t want that
Why would he make me not want it? It really seems like this is all him going "I am putting you through this to satisfy a condition that gave you". But why did he need to give me that condition?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
you are you and god doesn’t want to force you to change into anything you don’t want to be. even if it hurts you, others and god. you have existed as a natural emanation of knowledge of the number one as a potential self in the mind of god for eternity and while i don’t pretend to know gods full plans i do believe you are worth it. you are asking god to take away your free will and then presuppose that god ingrained in you your rebellious nature as opposed to it being your choice, it sounds like your mad you exist?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>and then presuppose that god ingrained in you your rebellious nature as opposed to it being your choice
All possible conditions that would lead to it would be predicated on God. He especially would know what exact conditions would lead to me making those choices as he already knows the outcome of it all. Thus I was always going to make those choices and God created me to do so.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
let’s take it this way. god has known your rebellious nature since before you were born, he looked through all the possible birthing places for you and saw you going psychotic, suicidal and genocidal. he then found earth and your parents and saw this was the place that would allow you to grow without your self imposed dissolution. yes god knew you were gonna make these choices and he took responsibility for it as it was the only way to bring that child into existence and he loves his children enough to suffer for them
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
But why is it the only way? He knows the endpoint, and could just create me there. The middleman is not needed when you are omnipotent.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>But why x?
because he fucking wanted to, the end. there's nothing beyond this to be said
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>It's just because, ok ?!
Lmao
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
unironically yes and this is usually the endpoint of all theological discussion. god did it because he wanted to, and because he is by definition omnibenevolent anything he does is automatically good. the end
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Sounds retarded
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
it is
>anything he does is automatically good >the end
Sounds more like the beginning. See the euthyphro dilemma.
both can be true but it isn't really relevant here, if god is goodness itself then anything he does by definition is good
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>anything he does is automatically good >the end
Sounds more like the beginning. See the euthyphro dilemma.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
even if he created you at the endpoint you would have free will? you could debase yourself easily in eternity in the vein of lucifer and you would have just as many arguments against god then.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
He would already know I'm going to do that. So the middleman is still not needed.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
dude he doesn’t care about hypothetical “results” or and endpoint, he cares about you and your growth. what your asking him to do is to create a being that is not you and doesn’t have free will? i’m going to tell you what your issue is, you think suffering is never useful for growth while god disagrees.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>he cares about you and your growth
He already knows the end, so why care. The growth that would happen was already determined, and as you said god put me in the exact place to experience it. Thus I never really had a choice.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
dude there is no end to eternal existence, your missing the whole point of why god did it lmao
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>dude there is no end to eternal existence
But there is for material. Why do we need it in that idea when he could just pop me end at the endpoint of material existence he already knows ill be at.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
the end of this material existence for you is death? but the reality of material existence is eternal? i’m messing up by using beginnings and ends when you don’t know how to put them in the correct context of eternity. my bad. the goal is for you to be able to exist eternally with god and your family in love and growth and this is how you get there dude. you can’t freely choose to love if god makes that choice for you and you can’t freely exist eternally if he forces you too as well.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
But if he's all knowing he should already know if you're worthy or not and if you will make that choice, so then why not skip it altogether because the end result is the same
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
no, you goin through your life and god skipping to the end to avoid you living that life are not the same
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
In the second he could create me with the exact same experiences ingrained. No reason to go through them.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
so you want god to create you with fake memories?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
He could make it real memories
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
how would they be real if they didn’t happen and if it happened how is it different from what’s going on rn?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
I don't know but sounds like easy fix if you're all powerful
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
god doesn’t act without reason or logic. your trying to think of what YOU would do with omnipotence not understanding that god has a nature he abides by and accepts the consequences of.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
The nature of being a stupid asshole ?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>not understanding that god has a nature he abides by
That's not really omnipotence is it?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
omnipotence and omni benevolence, hard to understand what that looks like but the experience of the soul is the eternal striving for understanding of that being.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
But your limited human logic cannot comprehend what an all powerful god's would be. What is a paradox to us might not be to a superior being. Yet you think he cannot do that because ?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
It would sure avoid a lot of pain for everyone, which sounds like someone benevolent would do...
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
pain and suffering arnt evil. willful ignorance is. god views suffering as useful for the growth of souls and i agree.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Absurd suffering is. And saying a child has to be devoured alive or a baby to be ripped from its mother's womb for his sould to grow is a ridiculous statement.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
what i’m saying is that the reality of god choosing to bring ALL his possible children into existence (not just the ones who are perfect from the start and never make mistakes) is that suffering will exist and part of that suffering is a child being eaten by dogs, god says our eternal existence with him is worth the temporary suffering required to bring us into eternal existence. you can call him evil for choosing his children but that seem petulant to me.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>what i’m saying is that the reality of god choosing to bring ALL his possible children into existence (not just the ones who are perfect from the start and never make mistakes) is that suffering will exist
Yeah but he could just make it so that it isn't the case.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
your asking god to either take away free will or act without logic?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
He can fully do it while keeping free will and acting with logic, because he can do anything. So say otherwise would reject the premise that God is omnipotent.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
your forgetting his omni benevolence. he loves and cares for you and wouldn’t want to change you into something you are not.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Sure loves that kid being raped
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
he loves the soul that would have killed herself being born in heaven take such a hard experience and turn it into an eternal existence of love and growth
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Soul devouring, child murdering demon. You worship Moloch
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
you worship yourself and hate it. i worship the goodness of truth which all of us are a part of.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Good for you, but I won't be part of it because your so called goodness is built on the rape and sacrifice of children. Sorry that's something my free will and reason won't accept.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
you think rape and sacrifice of children is the point of existence?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
No, that because there is unjust and adjust suffering in this world, there can be no point to this existence which is absolute. And even if there would be, I would refuse it because it is unjust.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Absurd*
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
yea i already knew that 50 post ago bro, it’s what all of you believe here regardless of what pedantic argument they are trying to use. i just can’t believe your that low IQ to not see how the suffering could be useful?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
How can you not see that it is absurd that an all good and all powerful god would find something better than create unfair suffering for us to go through ? Even if that suffering is useful at the end, it's still absurd that it even happened. You try to build this eternal rhetoric on foundations of blood, on the lament of the innocent, and dare to tell me it's made out of love ? I won't even talk about the countless innocents that died cursing this earth, I will speak only of this child born in this world, never loved by her parents, raped and abused before getting strangled by the hands of her own father. Yet you will look at me in the eye and tell me that it's all for the greater good, that in the end it doesn't really matter. Well I say it matters. And the suffering of this child matters more than all your pretentions of eternity.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
it’s not unfair? it’s actually the least amount of initial suffering needed to bring us into eternal existence in a healthy way.
your wailing against go for suffering but keep rejecting eternity? pick one or continue to seethe dude but you have been clearly rekt. have fun bitching about the dead babies, enjoy feeling superior cause you are “aware” of suffering more than others. just know anyone with strength will know how craven, pathetic and worthless you are when it comes to doing anything worth doing. eventually i hope you come to terms with the fact what your really saying is if i was in charge it would all be better, but wait your not perfectly good? so the evils you would allow as god would be justified but not the ones we witnesss irl? why is that? oh yea it’s cause your omnipotent and free from consequences and that’s the only reality you think is worth living in. you disgust me
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>it’s actually the least amount of initial suffering needed to bring us into eternal existence in a healthy way.
How would you even know this ?
Also I'm not saying I should be god, but that based on the absurd suffering I see in the world, there can be none, or that his plan is not worth the cost. You feel good because it's all according to a plan where it ends well, yet you have no proof of it, and when confronted with the absurdity of existence at its raw, you dismiss it and yet call yourself the good, moral one.
>you disgust me
Quite the same
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
how do i know that i was brought into existence in a way that would hide me from some of the eternal consequences of my vices while i gain the strength to deal with them? because i am you dork. i exist and truth is available to me. the fact i’m not adrift with nothing to hold on to but have the capacity to reject that truth is a pretty big hint dude.
i see my fellow man choosing to exist in virtue and love fore the sake of growth. your disgusting nihilism and the suffering associated with it are worth my brother coming into existence in a way where he doesn’t eternally hurt himself or others.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>it’s actually the least amount of initial suffering needed to bring us into eternal existence in a healthy way.
How would you even know this ?
Also I'm not saying I should be god, but that based on the absurd suffering I see in the world, there can be none, or that his plan is not worth the cost. You feel good because it's all according to a plan where it ends well, yet you have no proof of it, and when confronted with the absurdity of existence at its raw, you dismiss it and yet call yourself the good, moral one.
>you disgust me
Quite the same
Also reminds me of Voltaire's Pangloss who keeps saying we live in the best world possible even when he sees all the misery and shit. Kek he really exists
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
do you think you wouldn’t ruin heaven? you think you wouldn’t ruin anywhere good with the ty
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Absurd*
yea i already knew that 50 post ago bro, it’s what all of you believe here regardless of what pedantic argument they are trying to use. i just can’t believe your that low IQ to not see how the suffering could be useful?
especially in an eternal context
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>god says our eternal existence with him is worth the temporary suffering required to bring us into eternal existence
Seems petulant to me
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>the goal is for you to be able to exist eternally with god and your family in love and growth and this is how you get there dude
So why can't he create me already able to do that. No reason he can't.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
it wouldn’t be you?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Just make it me. There should be nothing stopping him from doing that sbd still making it me.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
see
>But why x?
because he fucking wanted to, the end. there's nothing beyond this to be said
this is a waste of time
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
you wouldn’t want that? and if you want it now it’s a product of your time here on earth dude. and even when he gives it
continued
and even when he gives you that it will be your choice which is the thing god values from you
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>that it will be your choice
Is it really my choice if it was seen i would choose it long before I existed?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
just because i know the end state of a system doesn’t negate indeterminacy within it. just cause i know all the radioactive particles will eventually decay doesn’t mean i can know the order (due to quantum uncertainty creating symmetry in that each particle is equally likely to decay) and in that same way god can know your worth the effort without knowing the path you will take throughout existence to get there
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
God not knowing the specifics would kinda go against the all knowing thing.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
he knows all possible paths? it’s your choice which one you go down and i know it’s hard to believe god would value you enough to choose your own path but he does, your ability to accept the truth of existence or go into a state of psychosis is proof of that reality
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>it’s your choice which one you go down
So does he not already know which path ill choose? If so the choice was mearly an illusion as I would always choose that one. If not then God would not be all knowing.
it’s been explained to you over thousands of years dude. there are children that can be brought into eternity but wouldn’t survive being brought straight to heaven. this suffering is our birthing pains but beyond that do you realize how pahetic you guys sounds? MUH SUFFERING IS POINTLESS!!! what? are you serious? you don’t think there is a correct place for suffering within eternal existence? no, what your really mad about is that your not omnipotent and free from consequences. seethe more about your limitations and continue to deny reality.
Because we don't follow God the ultimate good? And because he's not just good, but just, he lets have free will to experience the evil we created?
Simple enough.
I cannot imagine the level of "good Goyim" midwittery necessary to buy into the kike religion of athiesm. > GOD DOESN'T EXIST BECAUSE I CAN'T SEE HIM OUTSIDE OF MUH WINDOW! > WE LIVE IN LE MULTIVERSE AND THE UNIVERSE WAS CREATED WHEN NOTHING EXPLODED INTO SOMEHING! > TRUST THE SCIENCE, GOYIM! > CAUSALITY IS NOT REAL!
If God doesn't like sodomy, why he create a universe he know will have sodomy in it?
The totality of reality was perfect, why add sodomy into the mix..
God knows what I will have for breakfast tomorrow. He even goes as far as writing it on my fridge: HAM SANDWHICH
Tomorrow, when I'm choosing what to have for breakfast, is it possible for me to choose cereal?
Their mind was never not broken to begin with
I was always under the impression that the experience we live is proof of something and the presence of something is proof of a creator of something because after all, something can't be created from nothing.
I don't understand what arguments about God altering reality to satisfy a human's concept of good and evil have to do with anything.
Sorry if I'm a few steps behind in your argument.
>I was always under the impression that the experience we live is proof of something
It isn't.
>and the presence of something is proof of a creator of something
It's not.
>because after all, something can't be created from nothing.
Complete asspull of an assertion.
>>I was always under the impression that the experience we live is proof of something
>It isn't.
It is.
>>and the presence of something is proof of a creator of something
>It's not.
It is.
after all, something can't be created from nothing.
>Complete asspull of an assertion.
A completely logical assertion.
>the greatest theistic proof is 'nu-uh'
>the greatest atheistic rebuttal is 'nu-uh'
Learn to read you stupid motherfucker
>your comment
wrong
>experience we live is proof of something and the presence of something is proof of a creator of something because after all, something can't be created from nothing.
That doesn't follow, something could have always existed, and the existence of a creator doesn't mean it is still around or that it isn't completely blind event
>after all, something can't be created from nothing.
>believes a book that says something was created from nothing
Wdhmbt?
>something can't be created from nothing
It's pretty simple then: nothing never existed. If things exist, then it proves that there never was nothing. This also means that there's no creator needed. Just an endless stream of somethings.
You're right that coming from nothing is unintuitive, but I've always felt a conscious, willful God as a first cause just as unintuitive. He's supposed to have just existed forever, thinking to himself? Why? How is that more satisfying of an explanation than the universe existing forever.
>something can't be created from nothing
Correct. That is why a supergod necessarily must exist in order to create god.
which is why reality is a fractal/fibonacci's sequence, recursive logic, self-perpetuating system
reality is paradoxical, it's simultaenously logical and simultaenously not
all of reality is constantly moving because there is no truth within reality, no particle or matter can remain still, because no part of matter is actually 'fixed' and therefor truly true
the 'universe' is a conscious being self-realizing the complete void of logic time and time again, and then imagining this beautiful world with hot girls and beasts to be hunted cause why not :*~~
>were where you
>when you realize
>universe is a fractal
>Provides multiple examples of universal metaphysical truths
>There is no truth
Your brain on esotericism
Because Calvinism is the only denomination that makes sense given these paradigms.
>if God real why people die?
because God said so
>if God real why kid get cancer?
because God said so
>if God real why natural disasters happen?
because God said so
>if God real, why?
because God said so.
Everyone else is just in a constant state of mental gymnastics and self contradiction.
Because God said so is an argument every other denomination makes at some point though. You just have a liking for Calvinism because you see it as the most hardcore option, and this is LULZ.
>Because Calvinism is the only denomination that makes sense given these paradigms.
There is another.
u
>christians ssy suffering is part of existence
>get mad when you say existence is inherently suffering
Why is this?
because the fundamental nature of existence is loving, even the suffering (which god takes ultimate responsibility for) was an act of love involved in our growth
>Why is this?
Brainrot, unironically
Almost anybody on earth regardless of belief can agree that life is inherently shit and yet their brain completely short circuits at the mere mention of antinatalism
>life is le heckin' gift, bro!! suffering is good, actually!
>at the mere mention of antinatalism
I never said anything about that.
it's the logical conclusion if life is inherently suffering
no it’s not but you wish it was because it would absolve you of any responsibility for your actions. seethe and rage existence and god some more about your limitations and the consequences of your actions
no most people actually don’t believe life is shit, you wish they did because you want this to be meaningless so you don’t have to deal with the consequences of your actions. cry and seethe some more about the reality of suffering, the rest of us will be using it for what it was meant to do. make us stronger.
>suffering makes you... le stronger!!
cringe and larp, whatever gets you through life though anon
everyone who sees this i want you to witness what a legitimately evil person looks like. he wants to be weak and he reviles strength wherever he sees it. please just go 0/1 irl and take your nihilism and self hatred with you.
>reviles strength
>strength is the ability to self delude and cope with an existence that is inherently, fundamentally shit
kek
but it’s not, do you understand how fundamental the interactions we observe in this universe are? do you understand we have the capacity to love? to sacrifice ourselves for the greater good? to improve our brothers and sisters lives? to appreciate qualia and all its wonders? your a sick deluded man let taking out his rage on others by trying to make them as sad as he is. again, do everyone a favor and go 0/1
cope as hard as you want anon. i think the reason you're seething so hard is that you know you're deluding yourself.
>go 0/1
you're on LULZ zoomer, just tell me to kill myself
no i’m seeing at how much it must suck for my brothers and sisters to deal with you irl, you must be a constant drain on anyone and everyone around you and it makes me sick
there is no objective truth
Gore of the Goddess
Meds
Two more weeks until we get proof of god.
Anon, you’re supposed to answer the questions for yourself. Why are you calling something that is neither able nor willing to prevent evil “God”?
Evil doesn't exist, The One is beyond "willing"
Now back to obscurity of history you go epicuroids
>then he is malevolent
Guess what, fag
I naggerdare you to do dark practices I might tell you about and you tell us
Hahaha, yeah, take it to the stage, sucka!
This is a missquote. Epicurus was a deist and this argument is against Providence (and religion), not against the existence of God. See the original quote in Lactantius.
Provide the context or shut up. You idiots who waltz into a thread and start handing out assertions and instructions for looking things up are not adding any value. Go waste someone else's time. Assertion rejected.
Your ass in on fire and I don't need to go to Lactantius to know it.
Only applies to the monotheists who claim that god is an omni-marry-sue
No, it applies to every god because it asks why you should worship a deity that doesn't have the power to help or protect you.
Why would the Greek deities care about your safety?
Cycle of reciprocity
Just because that power isn't illimited don't mean they can't help in anyway nor that their influence won't help you to improve and be able to deal better with things life throw at you
You are too obsessed with the fantasy of an omni marry sue micromanaging and baby-sitting your life to umderstand reality
>Atheists: good and evil are subjective
>Also Atheists: god must be evil because he does not fit my arbitrary definitions of good
>Then whence cometh evil
Suppose God is omnipotent. Then, maybe, he has a wiser view of evil than we do. Maybe he doesn’t even think of it as evil at all. Maybe, it’s a necessary counterpoint to good and consciousness. Maybe, rejecting something because it’s “evil” is evil in itself. Maybe, if evil was loved, it would appear more like a child or a woman who needs guidance and rejecting it might make one, in time, less good and more confused.
There is no point religion can make that is a valid excuse to the human reason as to why a child would have to die horribly. There is nothing religion can say that would ease the pain of a parent who saw their child being torn by dogs alive.
You can say it's part of a bigger plan all you want, I say it's stupid, and that no bigger plan made by an all powerful god would warrant the suffering of this child.
that’s laughably prideful but here i’ll enlighten you. the suffering you witness is as a consequence of god wanting to have as many children with free will as possible. and while he could bring in angels into heaven for eternity, within the mind of god is the idea of you. you would have went psychotic in a vein much worse than lucifer if you were brought into heaven but if god gives you a little space and time (ignorance and limitations) you can safely be brought into eternal existence without hurting yourself or others in any meaningful way. in doing so the story goes god took responsibility for all the suffering our creation required because he loves each of his children equally. it’s super simple and it’s annoying your type has to have this explained every generation like we haven’t had this figured out for thousands of years,
>does evil
>suffers consequences
>blames God
Classic atheist.
i’m not blaming god, i’m explaining our original sin of needing suffering to be brought into existence
Why should I care if he takes responsability at the end ? The child will still have suffered. Even if he's granted eternal life, he'll still have been torn by dogs unjustifiably. And if God somehow changes that by cancelling this experience because he's all powerful, why make the child suffer in the first place ?
You say it's simple yet you can't even properly wrap your mind about this
no any suffering we endure is justified because we needed ignorance and limitations (the progenitors of suffering) to be brought into existence without going suicidal or malevolent. anything you experience is nothing in the context of eternal suffering (which you have the capacity to inflict on yourself and others if given eternity) YOU can’t seem to wrap your head around the fact the suffering of this world isn’t bad in an eternal context where you are free to grow forever.
>a child dying by dogs isn't that bad bro
Yeah ok, not convinced your God isn't malevolent, nor that you're a better human than me for uttering such revolting bullshit.
i mean if your an atheistic biological essentialist who believes value only arises from observers AND you value the kid then yea it’s super sad that life was snuffed out for no reason. BUT if eternity is real, that little kid was strong enough to endure it and still reach truth without letting anger at their suffering get in the way. it’s adorable atheist try to pull dead kids as a moral high ground when they themselves only put subjective value on the child.
>i mean if your an atheistic biological essentialist who believes value only arises from observers AND you value the kid then yea it’s super sad that life was snuffed out for no reason
Thanks for admitting that
>BUT if eternity is real, that little kid was strong enough to endure it and still reach truth without letting anger at their suffering get in the way
You still have to torture a child to get to there, which is retarded
You're contradicting yourself. If you value us and the life of children, then there is no point to the torture we are submitted to. You value our hypothetical souls and hypothetical eternal lives more than the mortal ones even though you have no proofs nor guarantees they would arise. And EVEN SO, I say that if we'd eventually get to those hypothetical eternal perfect lives, there are not worth the suffering of the innocent. They are not worth the tribulations and pains some children are submitted to
yea no i understand your position perfectly. there is to much suffering for god to be good. i’m saying that’s a laughably absurd statement in the face of eternity. none of us our innocent and you seem locked into this material world as the end all be all. yes suffering is worth it. cry and seethe but it is. when you get to heaven ask those kids if it was worth it to them and bask in their glory. if god has existed eternally than the reality of suffering is a mechanism to maintain that existence. just let it go dude, accept that all the evil in the world is your fault because you needed it to brought into existence without going insane, thank god and enjoy what existence has to offer
>accept that all the evil in the world is your fault because you needed it to brought into existence without going insane
Why not just create beings that can be brought in without going insane?
he has? but the reality of a self with free will is that we have the capacity to reject truth (psychosis) which will erode our ability of reason and lead to our dissolution, it is an eternal danger to the nature of a self but you can gain the strength to not have it be a problem any more.
Your argument is laughable and
immediately contradicts the benevolent and all powerful aspect of God. I mean by your description and logic, God looks like the antichrist. A demon asking for a sacrifice in exchange for a perceived good as reward.
he looks like the antichrist by putting his children in the right situation to grow without eternally harming themselves or others? no it sounds like your mad your not omnipotent and free from consequences
>giving a child to the dogs or to be raped to death is putting them in the right situation
Then how come some are tested differently than others ? Why are some lives extinguished right at the beginning when some are almost free from torment ?
I'm not absolving my responsability at all, but if God is at the wheel, he's the one responsible for getting children raped to death, and I find this quite questionable
those differences in experience are what separates the idea of an eternally growing soul from western traditions and the perfected statues of eastern orthodoxy. i’m not going to get you to say all the suffering is good, i’m hoping to get you to realize it’s the cost of bringing you specifically into existence
If the price of my own existence is the absurd torment of innocent souls, then it is not worth it.
god would disagree and i disagree, temporary suffering in the order of less than a hundred years is nothing in comparison to and eternity of love and growth
Close your eyes, my boy. It will only hurt for a while...
But why not just create those children already unable to hurt themselves or others? He has the ability.
he does? but there are other children who he loves and wants to exist eternally in love and growth with. children like me or you who needed and had the strength to endure the human experience to get a grasp of reality.
>children like me or you who needed and had the strength to endure the human experience to get a grasp of reality
Ok but why did they need it? The only reason is that he just decided they do, but as established he could have created you and me without needing it.
Also because you brush off the suffering aspect so easily I won't insist on that, but once again you make me think believers are brainwashed sociopaths. By your logic you can justify all the suffering of the world because it's nothing in the face of eternity. You're inquisition material
you seem like a sociopath to me because you fetishize the reality of suffering to absolve yourself of responsibility.
Now explain animal suffering. They can experience intense suffering and receive no eternal reward.
I think it's better if you view the kid as an instrument God uses to teach us things about morality, etc
I could also add that whatever plan God has in store, he should just stop it right there because it's not worth it
i’d disagree, i think you and all my brothers and sisters are worth it and we will prove our father right. seethe and cope with your own fear, self hatred and weakness
Why does god have to care about me?
>If God real why bad thing happen?
The problem of evil is one of the most enduring theological problems for a reason. It's dishonest to think you can dismiss it offhandedly.
no it’s just that every generation there are jackasses who think they are better than others for pointing out suffering exist. it’s been explained to you over and over again in a million different ways but you won’t accept suffering has a place in eternal existence.
The problem of evil is not something that can be solved or even adequately explained in a thread on LULZ. The fact that you two unironically think such a weighty issue can be figured out by a few anons cracking their heads together is bewildering. Here's what an actual introduction to the problem looks like (and, again, this is just an introduction): https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/evil/
>The problem of evil is not something that can be solved or even adequately explained in a thread on LULZ. The fact that you two unironically think such a weighty issue can be figured out by a few anons cracking their heads together is bewildering. Here's what an actual introduction to the problem looks like (and, again, this is just an introduction):
>reductionist arguments good
>problem of evil dumb see haha ifunny meme
>i rolled my ankle waaaaaahhhh see, god ebil
Let's just skip to the part where you admit that you just hate God and skip the pedantic semantics.
the problem of evil is a belief that the suffering of the world proves god can’t be good. that’s laughably absurd when talking about an eternal being trying to bring children into existence and it’s been explained to you over thousands of years in millions of different ways. nobody here is trying to solve anything because the answer is already known, you just won’t accept the answer because you’re salty you’re not omnipotent and free from consequences.
>the problem of evil is a belief that the suffering of the world proves god can’t be good
That is not what is meant by the problem of evil. It is a question, not an affirmative statement about God's non existence or lack of goodness. True believers have considered, discussed and thought about the issue deeply. The idea that you MUST be an atheist if you bring the problem up is absurd.
The only people who bring it up are atheists trying to deboonk Christianity.
>Augustine was an atheist
>CS Lewis was an atheist
>Aquinas was an atheist
>Plantinga was an atheist
no those were people who had compassion (and liked to masturbate) enough to answer their generations mass of prideful pseudo intellectuals
Incredibly self righteous post.
>i’ve already explained it multiple times dude
Did you ever consider that your personal explanation for a problem that the greatest minds and theologians have had difficulty with might be lacking?
they haven’t had difficulty with it dude. they attempted to answer every braindead gotcha argument from you prideful pseudo intellectuals and that takes time. notice how your not taking a position? your real problem is your not omnipotent and free from consequences but your to much of a coward to say it out loud.
>they haven’t had difficulty with it dude.
I encourage you to actually read some of these people's biographies if you seriously think believing Christians have never experienced difficulty understanding the existence of evil.
You're like a caveman wandering into the middle of a supermarket and asking people to solve the problem of hunting for food. You're completely surrounded by the answwr to your problem in every direction. People are even directing you correctly to the answer. But you continue to insist that the problem has not yet been solved because people in the past struggled with it.
Did you ever consider that this question is only a problem for atheists? Most have Christians have no objection to the existence of suffering. Also notice how we have shifted from "evil" to "suffering" as if the two are equal.
>Did you ever consider that this question is only a problem for atheists?
No, because I am familiar with the struggles that certain Christian writers have gone through in relation to evil.
those issues were when they were still atheistic and coming to terms with their faith. no one who believes in god is gonna run up to him and act like the suffering of earth somehow indicts him of evil.
>those issues were when they were still atheistic and coming to terms with their faith
Wrong. Read the biographies themselves.
>somehow indicts him of evil
Again, for the last time, "the problem of evil" is not an affirmative statement of God's evil or non existence in the face of evil. It is general heading for a series of questions asked in relation to God's existence and the presence of evil; many of the people who ask and answer these questions are in fact seeking to gain a fuller understanding of God's goodness rather than seeking to indict Him, as you suggest.
At this point, I don't think there's much use in continuing to respond to you: you're incoherent, you repeat yourself, and you seem incapable of actually engaging with what the other person is saying. You seem genuinely convinced that your one answer is the answer that ought to stand above all the others given throughout history, even though you can't really explain yourself all that well to myself or others in this thread. Such blatant and unsubstantiated arrogance in the face of repeated, rational criticism is usually an indication of mania or a personality disorder. Either way, I'm out.
Nowhere did I say I felt it personally hadn't been solved. That's a sweeping assertion on your part. I am simply saying that to dismiss the problem out of hand when it's obviously an enduring and complex issue is ridiculous.
>when it's obviously an enduring and complex issue is ridiculous
It's a solved problem.
so your not arguing a point? your just bitching like the impotent manlet you are? either you think the problem of evil is a problem or you don’t. the people who wrote arguments against it didn’t believe it had value and even tried to help you understand while empathizing with your fee-fees. when you have something useful to posit beyond “AKSHUALLY ITS NOT THAT SIMPLE, EVEN THO YOUR RIGHT IM MORE RIGHT BECAUSE I ACKNOWLEDGE PEOPEL HAVE REALLY HAD A PROBLEM WITH THE REALITY OF SUFFERING AT ALL TIMES EVERYWHERE” feel free to post something but until then shut the FUCK up and let us with strength talk to each other
>seething and shaking with rage
>can't use elementary level grammar points
>blatantly projecting his height insecurity
>is most likely 20 or younger and converted from aesthetic trad tiktok edits
>can't figure out why omniscience and free will can't coexist
Embarrassing
guys look at this dork lmao he thinks free will can’t exist with an all powerful god. i bet you saw some memes about how hard it is to explain free will and took it as a rebuttal to he observed reality of free will as opposed to showing the limits of human reason. this dumbass built his whole personality off memes he didn’t even understand LMAO your the reason we didn’t let ppl read bibles back in the day.
>g-guys look
>lmao
>LMAO
I believe in free will, unlike the poster you're responding to, and even I can tell you're shaking. Take a break. Cool off. Do a lap.
no i’m excited someone finally had the balls to make that stupid and evil statement denying his own free will. i’m hoping if i hurt his feelings enough he gets but hurt and continues to engage so i can show the rest of you the type of man who says these things.
OK, bro.
>he thinks free will can’t exist with an all powerful god
it can't, but you're welcome to try to prove it can despite failing repeatedly throughout this thread. i honestly think it's just an iq filter and you either understand it or you don't
>your the reason we didn’t let ppl read bibles back in the day.
this is not the win you think it is
no it’s definitely the own i think it is. you saw some memes about how we can’t use human reason to explain the reality of existence and immediately started falling into psychosis instead of understanding the limits of human reason. it would be funny if there weren’t so many who did the same thing.
but here let’s engage. free will being compatible with a big 3 God seems self evident and a natural consequence of that god’s existence, why do you think that’s not the case?
>memes about how we can’t use human reason to explain the reality of existence
i have no idea what "memes" you're talking about here. it's the only tool we have to use at all
>why do you think that’s not the case?
if god both knows and has willed whatever a person will do or "choose," then the person is not freely "choosing" anything at all, regardless of how free that "choice" appears to that person subjectively. calvinists are based in a way since they're the only ones i know of that even acknowledge this at all
i’m going to take this from a physicist perspective because i want to help you, you will continue to get roasted if i feel this is in bad faith.
you could imagine the big bang was the beginning of creation. we could also imagine that heat death is the end result. seems deterministic right? well no because within the system is the capacity to create symmetry (in the vein of radioactive decay, each particle has an equally likely chance to decay so they will decay randomly creating indeterminacy) within the system of existence our free will acts out another indeterminacy in nature by allowing for equally possible outcomes. that doesn’t change the fact heat death is inevitable.
now on to a more theological perspective. what does free will mean in the context of a created being? it’s not omnipotence and freedom from consequences which is what you chuds want. the highest form of free will for a created being is the ability to accept or reject the reality of truth. we have that as we have the capacity to willfully go psychotic.
so yea, don’t be so confident in shit you don’t know next time.
nowhere in this did you address a single thing i said, reread the post
>what does free will mean in the context of a created being?
ability to have chosen otherwise, which is not compatible with omniscience
again i already explained just because an end point is known doesn’t mean the system is deterministic. i’ve already explained this to you but you might be to low IQ to understand.
no what your saying is if you don’t have the freedom to do whatever you want, whenever you want, with no consequences then you don’t have free will.
in the case of complete omniscience it absolutely does mean the system is deterministic. if i am presented with two options, A or B, and god knows i will choose B, i have no ability to do otherwise and i MUST choose B. this shouldnt be hard
>clearly define free will for you
>n- nuh uh, what you're actually saying is-
too retarded to be reasoned with, maybe another anon can help you
you have the ability to kill yourself? you have the ability to reject truth? again i’ve already explain this to you using physics and theology, just because an end point is known doesn’t mean the system is deterministic. your to captivated by your own fetishization of suffering to under how weak and pitiful you sound. you keep repeating lies when i’ve shown you math doesn’t agree but????
>you have the ability to kill yourself? you have the ability to reject truth?
completely predestined in accordance to god's will, refute the actual argument
no it’s not??? that’s the whole fucking point of free will you chud LMAO the end points are self dissolution or eternal existence (you might be able to turn yourself into an object idk) gods will is your free will, just because he knows it will go well doesn’t deny free will.
>still not addressing the actual point
> if i am presented with two options, A or B, and god knows i will choose B, i have no ability to do otherwise and i MUST choose B.
explain why this is wrong
why do you have no ability to do otherwise just because god knows what you will do?
because god would be wrong otherwise which is impossible
you don’t think you can surprise god? it’s literally why he had children, built free will and symmetry. what your not understanding is that these symmetries we break don’t change what the possible ultimate outcomes may be and god knows and is all possible paths. when presented with a choice god knows the end result of every pathway and so is never ignorant. i would really read into the literature on what the heisenberg uncertainty principle is in relation to understanding determinism.
Nice headcanon
pretty standard theological understanding of gods existence with the reality of free will?
you cannot surprise someone that's literally fucking omniscient anon, what are you saying?
>and god knows and is all possible paths
including which one a person would take before they ever existed, which again means they had no free "choice" to begin with
again dude, just because you know outcomes doesn’t mean a system is strictly deterministic. if your taking god as true and he knew you before you were born then what you are watching is the manifestation of god asking your full potential (in the mind of god) how would you like to see yourself in a co authored production of you. again dude your argument comes down to “how could it be my choice if god knew i’d do it” which is the most evil thing in the world tbh. your over here committing evil and blaming god for it? idk about you because you seem like a disgusting nerd but as for me? my actions and decisions are my own.
genuine brainrot, i don't know how else to try to communicate this to you. good luck out there anon
you genuinely got rekt. good luck....kinda existing but not but angry about it, out there.
>your over here committing evil and blaming god for it
If God knew I would commit evil, and specifically put me in the scenario where I would make the choice to commit evil, than how is it not his fault for not preventing it and stacking the deck so that it happened?
It's God fault, he should have controlled you so that you didn't have the option to choose evil.
he didn’t stack the deck? he provided a sunset for you to choose good, the love of a mother, the strength of a friend? god said you were worth the evil once you learn.
>he provided a sunset for you to choose good
But he knew I wouldn't. Thus he specifically put me here to commit evil.
well no, if you are really headed for dissolution then god put you here to help others learn from your evils and as a testament to how much he respects free wil
>well no
Would be yes since in a scenario where I am helping others learn from my evil the point is the evil.
your not the sole purpose of reality. you might choose to be evil and god can make good from your evil.
>he didn’t stack the deck?
If we both take
>god knows what you are going to do
And
>god specifically put you where you needed to be to make these choices
Than every choice made was on him, because I would have never chosen the other options and he knows that.
you do understand you put YOURSELF in a lot of situations right? he could have put you in the garden and you would be bitching that it’s his fault you didn’t listen to him about the one rule. i get what your saying and it’s an immature understanding of causality/freedom.
AGAIN god knew you were going to commit evil and said once you learn the evil will have been worth it. you can see he and cry about it but that’s the reality.
>you do understand you put YOURSELF in a lot of situations right?
Did God know I would do that or not? And did he put me in a scenario where I would put myself into those situations or not? If yes to both I never really had a choice, because I was always going to choose what was determined I would choose.
again no, that’s not how causality works. just because i know the initial and end conditions of system doesn’t mean the system is deterministic (see our own universe) try again in proving that it’s somebody else’s fault for your poor choices.
>works. just because i know the initial and end conditions of system
But God knows the middle too, he knows every point. Which means it would need to be a fully determined system.
Here's the simple question. God knows I will commit evil, this is the outcome. So can I not commit evil? Is there any choice without that outcome?
Humans can just 'not sin' but you can stop yourself from doing more sins
That's not the question. If God knows I will sin more, is there any scenario where I dont?
There is no scenario where a person can just stop sinning
Therfore i had no real choice, every sin i commit was already decided that i would commit it. And if there was no outcome where I wouldn't, than I never had a choice.
no it wasn't decided, you're coming to conclusions based on asserts you can't show to be true.
You have the choice to move towards God or away from God,
God just knows what you will chose he isn't forcing you to make that choice
God knows I will do sodomy tomorrow
Is it possible for me to chose not to do sodomy tomorrow?
No, it's impossible. It would entail a contradiction. (God being wrong, when he always right)
>God knows I will do sodomy tomorrow
just begs the question how do you know God knows you will do sodomy tomorrow?
and you don't so you cannot make that claim
>just begs the question how do you know God knows you will do sodomy tomorrow?
If he's omnipotent he knows all. Therefore he knows I will do so.
I don't think there is a God
this is just a problem for retards who think God knows the future
But if he knows I'll choose it than I never really had the choice. I could never choose the other option.
>But if he knows I'll choose
again you assert that you know he knows you will choose it but you cannot show this to be true.
and if you can't show it to be true the conclusions your asserting are also, not true
That would only be the case if you in fact do choose it which you can't know until it happens
Right. Problem goes away if you reject God's omniscience
>That would only be the case if you in fact do choose it
An omnipotent being would know already, he knew I would do so long before I existed. To say otherwise would be to say God is not all knowing.
>An omnipotent being would know already
yes but he wouldn't know something is going to happen if it doesn't happen. you're asserting he would know a sin will be committed but you cannot show that sin will in fact be committed before it takes place. thats where your argument falls apart
So he's not omniscient then? Because an omniscient being would know exactly what and when it was going to happen.
>So he's not omniscient then? Because an omniscient being would know exactly what and when it was going to happen.
but i never said he doesn't know what you're going to do.
what was said was:
he wouldn't know something is going to happen if it doesn't happen.
For God to know something is going to happen it would have to happen, you don't seem to understand that.
Everything you said, is compatible with the hypothetical
God knows I will eat ham for breakfast -> it's impossible for me to chose cereal
Look, if this is causing you mental anguish, don't worry about it. Go to church and eat boogers or whatever you do there.
>God knows I will eat ham for breakfast -> it's impossible for me to chose cereal
God only knows you will eat ham for breakfast if you will eat ham for breakfast.
If you eat cereal then he knows you will choose cereal
why is that so hard for you to understand
lol
This is just you changing the hypothetical.
In the SAME hypothetical, where God KNOWS I will eat ham, it's IMPOSSIBLE for me to choose cereal.
You should agree with this.
it would only be impossible to choose cereal if you knew that God knows you will eat ham.
but you don't have access to what God knows and thus will never be able to come to that conclusion
God knows I will ham. (I don't)
I sit down at my table ready to eat breakfast. (knowing nothing about God)
Then I choose to eat cereal.
Is this story possible?
No it's not. Because God cannot have false knowledge. But in the story, God was wrong about what I would choose for breakfast.
>God knows I will ham. (I don't)
>Then I choose to eat cereal.
ok how do you know God knows you will eat ham if you end up eating cereal? this is where your argument breaks down.
If you choose cereal God knew you would choose cereal not ham.
your entire starting premise is wrong
>But in the story, God was wrong about what I would choose for breakfast.
this is only true if you had access to what God knows, since you don't you have no way of knowing what you're saying is true you're just asserting it is
>ok how do you know God knows
something that doesn't happen isn't part of 'everything'
Right, which is why it's impossible for me to choose cereal, if God knows I will eat ham
It doesn't happen. The cereal never happens. Only ham is possible.
both are possible God would just know which one you chose
Aha, so God doesn't know until I make the choice?
that again, is not what was said
Does God know before I make the choice?
there is no 'before' God is outside of time
>timey whimey bullshit
You know, this doesn't help you. God being "outside time".
It's not like there's anything preventing God from entering into time, and doing stuff like miracles. He could write what I will have for breakfast on an envelope the day before
Suppose he did that
You're just making the hypothetical unnecessarily convoluted
>It's not like there's anything preventing God from entering into time, and doing stuff like miracles
He did 2000 years ago
>You're just making the hypothetical unnecessarily convoluted
it was convoluted to begin with
So, like, do you think my argument against free choices succeeds or what?
God makes a note appear under my fridge, spelling out what he knows I'll have for breakfast tomorrow (nobody but God knows it's there)
I freely chose to eat cereal. (but the note under my fridge says ham)
Is this story possible?
you have no precedent for the story so no its not possible
Why is it impossible?
It's not like the note under my fridge is exerting a causal influence and restricting my actions.
I just chose Cereal
I didn't say it was impossible i said there is no precedent and just silly.
Sorry, misread your post.
>it's just silly
Way to just brush of a massive plot-hole in the God + free will story
>Way to just brush of a massive plot-hole in the God + free will story
how is you making up fake scenarios a plot hole
I agree the hypotheticals are made-up. I don't think God exist.
But when taken together, your beliefs entail contradictions (omniscience + free will)
You should be able to tell me why it's impossible (but you agree that it's possible)
hence: plot-hole
If god lied, sure.
No, God truly knows I will chose ham.
It's just that God's knowledge doesn't cause or determine my choices. So I use my free will to chose cereal.
No contradiction.
That not how it works. god either lied or god didn't know you would choose cereal.
WOW
seems like there's a problem with fee will and omniscience both being true at the same time
>God knows you will eat ham
It was stipulated in the hypothetical.
>If you choose cereal God knew you would choose cereal not ham.
This is you changing the hypothetical again
>It was stipulated in the hypothetical.
ok so your hypothetical relies on you having knowledge you don't have and thus your hypothetical falls apart due to that
>This is you changing the hypothetical again
your hypothetical falls apart so I corrected it for you
Only God knows. Nobody having "knowledge they don't have"
The only thing that is stipulated is that God knows what I will have for breakfast. And for it to be impossible to eat something else, than the thing God knows I will it.
>your hypothetical falls apart
No, you agree with my hypothetical. That it's impossible for God to be wrong.
>Only God knows. Nobody having "knowledge they don't have"
and your hypothetical relies on you knowing what God knows which is where it breaks down.
False.
Just God knows.
Yes that is what I am saying however your hypothetical relies on you knowing what God knows
But whether or not I know isn't relevant. I'm still not going to choose cereal if God knows I choose ham.
no it is relevant because your entire point is based off of you knowing what God knows you will do. however you don't have access to that
>no it is relevant because your entire point is based off of you knowing what God knows you will do
No it isn't. The point is if God know what I will do I can't not do what God knows I will do it is impossible. Thus I never actually had a choice, even if I didn't know I didn't have a choice.
>No it isn't. The point is if God know what I will do I can't not do what God knows I will do it is impossible. Thus I never actually had a choice, even if I didn't know I didn't have a choice.
so again, God knowing what you will chose doesn't negate your ability to chose.
You can chose option 1 or 2 which ever you chose God will know.
Having that knowledge has no effect on your choice.
if you think it does feel free to show the connection
>Having that knowledge has no effect on your choice.
It does because I can never choose the option that contradicts what God knows.
>It does because I can never choose the option that contradicts what God knows.
ok how does that mean no free will
The choice was an illusion, I could only ever choose the option god knew I would. Thus I never actually had free will everything was determined before I existed.
>For God to know something is going to happen it would have to happen
Which is the point, if he knows I'm going to do it, than there is nothing I can do to not do it. Therefore it was never a choice.
>Which is the point, if he knows I'm going to do it, than there is nothing I can do to not do it. Therefore it was never a choice.
ok then show how knowing something will happen has any effect on you choosing to do that thing
Because I can't choose not to as God knows I will choose to. God knew long before I existed what choice I will make, thus I never really had a choice it was set in stone I will do that.
>Because I can't choose not to as God knows I will choose to
but you also don't have access to what God knows
>God knew long before I existed what choice I will make, thus I never really had a choice it was set in stone I will do that
This is contradictory, you said God knows what choice you will make then deny you making a choice.
>knowing something will happen has any effect on you choosing to do that thing
It just restricts the possibility space to only doing that thing.
For there to be a choice, it needs to be possible to do another thing. But it's not, else God's knowledge would be false.
>god is omniscient but actually doesn't know certain things
it's all so tiresome
not what was said at all
If God doesn't know what I am going to do than he isn't omniscient by definition.
it's exactly what was said. you're genuinely just too retarded to understand even after multiple anons tried repeatedly to explain it to you
What are you saying? You seemed confused, and talked about me knowing (in the hypothetical). That's not important, assume that the person in the hypothetical doesn't know. God hasn't told the person in the hypothetical what the future is gonna be, it's not like there's anything preventing him from doing that, but he hasn't
It US who know, the telling the story and stipulating what's true in the hypothetical.
We know that God knows the outcome of some future event.
so what exactly are you confused about
A free choice is defined as: "the ability to do otherwise"
God knows what I will do.
It's not possible for me do otherwise.
>A free choice is defined as: "the ability to do otherwise"
did you just make that up right now?
>God knows what I will do. It's not possible for me do otherwise.
You are free to make choices, God knows that choices you will freely make. You can choice otherwise but you'd also be free to change your mind God would still know
>You can choice otherwise
I can't though, as God already knows i won't.
then you freely chose to have ham for breakfast what are you confused about
I don't get why so many people think a predetermined outcome means you didn't make a choice. You still made a choice, it was just already known what the choice would be.
Right, which is why I'm a compatibilist. I also think so.
>predetermined outcome
Which is to reject the premise of the free will apologetics. And the problem of evil grows super huge
If it's possible for God to determine outcomes, and humans to still make choices, be moral agents, etc. Then he would simply determine everyone to always choose the good
>he could have put you in the garden and you would be bitching that it’s his fault you didn’t listen to him about the one rule
Well he knew I would break it so it kinda is his fault for deliberately putting someone in a situation where you know they will defy you and then get mad about it.
absolutely degenerate and you should feel ashamed as a man for having said it.
So no refutation? If God knows I'm going to break the rule why would he be mad at me when I do it? The outcome was long foreseen and nothing would have changed it.
>why would he be mad at me
where are you even getting this? lol you have a cartoonish understanding of theology.
God knows you will sin thats why we have repentance
Why would I need to repent? He already knows if he'll forgive me or not.
Because we're called to repent for our sins
>just because
not what was said at all
>why would I need to repent?
>because we're called to repent
Admit you're retarded.
glad it makes you seethe :^)
i can know the end state of radioactive decay without being able to know exactly how it gets there?
Saying something is a "problem" does not mean that it's inherently negative. Do you think Maths problems are bad? The term "problem" simply indicates that the matter is complex enough to require discussion, which is what ancient theologians have done with the problem of evil since year 0.
>didn’t believe it had value
Sweeping assumption on your part. Again, read their biographies and listen to their personal experiences.
>Augustine was an atheist
>CS Lewis was an atheist
Yes actually, that's the entire reason they wrote huge volumes of literature explaining why they converted to Christianity.
it’s not a problem if you take eternity as real. again you are saying the reality of suffering proves there is evil in the world and how could a good god allow evil. the reason your saying that is to prove either god doesn’t exist or he is evil. it’s laughable to anyone who has any conception of what eternal existence would be like.
>the reason your saying that is to prove either god doesn’t exist or he is evil.
Uh, no. It's to provide a more effective understanding of God's goodness. See
okay so your sayin god is good and your trying to understand the PLACE of suffering within existence? i’ve already explained it multiple times dude, it’s so he could have as many kids as possible by giving them space and time (ignorance and limitations) so they won’t eternally hurt themselves or others.
Why not just make kids that won't hurt themselves and others from the start?
he does? but there are other children (like me and you) who could exist but take a little more effort on gods part. god said it was worth it, that you were worth it because he has known you for eternity in the mind of god.
>who could exist but take a little more effort on gods part
Why would it take him more effort? Couldn't he just bypass it.
if he bypasses it it wouldn’t be you. your asking god to not use reason or logic.
Couldn't he just make me me? There's no reason he couldn't just create me with all the lessons learned.
you wouldn’t want that? and if you want it now it’s a product of your time here on earth dude. and even when he gives it
>you wouldn’t want that
Why would he make me not want it? It really seems like this is all him going "I am putting you through this to satisfy a condition that gave you". But why did he need to give me that condition?
you are you and god doesn’t want to force you to change into anything you don’t want to be. even if it hurts you, others and god. you have existed as a natural emanation of knowledge of the number one as a potential self in the mind of god for eternity and while i don’t pretend to know gods full plans i do believe you are worth it. you are asking god to take away your free will and then presuppose that god ingrained in you your rebellious nature as opposed to it being your choice, it sounds like your mad you exist?
>and then presuppose that god ingrained in you your rebellious nature as opposed to it being your choice
All possible conditions that would lead to it would be predicated on God. He especially would know what exact conditions would lead to me making those choices as he already knows the outcome of it all. Thus I was always going to make those choices and God created me to do so.
let’s take it this way. god has known your rebellious nature since before you were born, he looked through all the possible birthing places for you and saw you going psychotic, suicidal and genocidal. he then found earth and your parents and saw this was the place that would allow you to grow without your self imposed dissolution. yes god knew you were gonna make these choices and he took responsibility for it as it was the only way to bring that child into existence and he loves his children enough to suffer for them
But why is it the only way? He knows the endpoint, and could just create me there. The middleman is not needed when you are omnipotent.
>But why x?
because he fucking wanted to, the end. there's nothing beyond this to be said
>It's just because, ok ?!
Lmao
unironically yes and this is usually the endpoint of all theological discussion. god did it because he wanted to, and because he is by definition omnibenevolent anything he does is automatically good. the end
Sounds retarded
it is
both can be true but it isn't really relevant here, if god is goodness itself then anything he does by definition is good
>anything he does is automatically good
>the end
Sounds more like the beginning. See the euthyphro dilemma.
even if he created you at the endpoint you would have free will? you could debase yourself easily in eternity in the vein of lucifer and you would have just as many arguments against god then.
He would already know I'm going to do that. So the middleman is still not needed.
dude he doesn’t care about hypothetical “results” or and endpoint, he cares about you and your growth. what your asking him to do is to create a being that is not you and doesn’t have free will? i’m going to tell you what your issue is, you think suffering is never useful for growth while god disagrees.
>he cares about you and your growth
He already knows the end, so why care. The growth that would happen was already determined, and as you said god put me in the exact place to experience it. Thus I never really had a choice.
dude there is no end to eternal existence, your missing the whole point of why god did it lmao
>dude there is no end to eternal existence
But there is for material. Why do we need it in that idea when he could just pop me end at the endpoint of material existence he already knows ill be at.
the end of this material existence for you is death? but the reality of material existence is eternal? i’m messing up by using beginnings and ends when you don’t know how to put them in the correct context of eternity. my bad. the goal is for you to be able to exist eternally with god and your family in love and growth and this is how you get there dude. you can’t freely choose to love if god makes that choice for you and you can’t freely exist eternally if he forces you too as well.
But if he's all knowing he should already know if you're worthy or not and if you will make that choice, so then why not skip it altogether because the end result is the same
no, you goin through your life and god skipping to the end to avoid you living that life are not the same
In the second he could create me with the exact same experiences ingrained. No reason to go through them.
so you want god to create you with fake memories?
He could make it real memories
how would they be real if they didn’t happen and if it happened how is it different from what’s going on rn?
I don't know but sounds like easy fix if you're all powerful
god doesn’t act without reason or logic. your trying to think of what YOU would do with omnipotence not understanding that god has a nature he abides by and accepts the consequences of.
The nature of being a stupid asshole ?
>not understanding that god has a nature he abides by
That's not really omnipotence is it?
omnipotence and omni benevolence, hard to understand what that looks like but the experience of the soul is the eternal striving for understanding of that being.
But your limited human logic cannot comprehend what an all powerful god's would be. What is a paradox to us might not be to a superior being. Yet you think he cannot do that because ?
It would sure avoid a lot of pain for everyone, which sounds like someone benevolent would do...
pain and suffering arnt evil. willful ignorance is. god views suffering as useful for the growth of souls and i agree.
Absurd suffering is. And saying a child has to be devoured alive or a baby to be ripped from its mother's womb for his sould to grow is a ridiculous statement.
what i’m saying is that the reality of god choosing to bring ALL his possible children into existence (not just the ones who are perfect from the start and never make mistakes) is that suffering will exist and part of that suffering is a child being eaten by dogs, god says our eternal existence with him is worth the temporary suffering required to bring us into eternal existence. you can call him evil for choosing his children but that seem petulant to me.
>what i’m saying is that the reality of god choosing to bring ALL his possible children into existence (not just the ones who are perfect from the start and never make mistakes) is that suffering will exist
Yeah but he could just make it so that it isn't the case.
your asking god to either take away free will or act without logic?
He can fully do it while keeping free will and acting with logic, because he can do anything. So say otherwise would reject the premise that God is omnipotent.
your forgetting his omni benevolence. he loves and cares for you and wouldn’t want to change you into something you are not.
Sure loves that kid being raped
he loves the soul that would have killed herself being born in heaven take such a hard experience and turn it into an eternal existence of love and growth
Soul devouring, child murdering demon. You worship Moloch
you worship yourself and hate it. i worship the goodness of truth which all of us are a part of.
Good for you, but I won't be part of it because your so called goodness is built on the rape and sacrifice of children. Sorry that's something my free will and reason won't accept.
you think rape and sacrifice of children is the point of existence?
No, that because there is unjust and adjust suffering in this world, there can be no point to this existence which is absolute. And even if there would be, I would refuse it because it is unjust.
Absurd*
yea i already knew that 50 post ago bro, it’s what all of you believe here regardless of what pedantic argument they are trying to use. i just can’t believe your that low IQ to not see how the suffering could be useful?
How can you not see that it is absurd that an all good and all powerful god would find something better than create unfair suffering for us to go through ? Even if that suffering is useful at the end, it's still absurd that it even happened. You try to build this eternal rhetoric on foundations of blood, on the lament of the innocent, and dare to tell me it's made out of love ? I won't even talk about the countless innocents that died cursing this earth, I will speak only of this child born in this world, never loved by her parents, raped and abused before getting strangled by the hands of her own father. Yet you will look at me in the eye and tell me that it's all for the greater good, that in the end it doesn't really matter. Well I say it matters. And the suffering of this child matters more than all your pretentions of eternity.
it’s not unfair? it’s actually the least amount of initial suffering needed to bring us into eternal existence in a healthy way.
your wailing against go for suffering but keep rejecting eternity? pick one or continue to seethe dude but you have been clearly rekt. have fun bitching about the dead babies, enjoy feeling superior cause you are “aware” of suffering more than others. just know anyone with strength will know how craven, pathetic and worthless you are when it comes to doing anything worth doing. eventually i hope you come to terms with the fact what your really saying is if i was in charge it would all be better, but wait your not perfectly good? so the evils you would allow as god would be justified but not the ones we witnesss irl? why is that? oh yea it’s cause your omnipotent and free from consequences and that’s the only reality you think is worth living in. you disgust me
>it’s actually the least amount of initial suffering needed to bring us into eternal existence in a healthy way.
How would you even know this ?
Also I'm not saying I should be god, but that based on the absurd suffering I see in the world, there can be none, or that his plan is not worth the cost. You feel good because it's all according to a plan where it ends well, yet you have no proof of it, and when confronted with the absurdity of existence at its raw, you dismiss it and yet call yourself the good, moral one.
>you disgust me
Quite the same
how do i know that i was brought into existence in a way that would hide me from some of the eternal consequences of my vices while i gain the strength to deal with them? because i am you dork. i exist and truth is available to me. the fact i’m not adrift with nothing to hold on to but have the capacity to reject that truth is a pretty big hint dude.
i see my fellow man choosing to exist in virtue and love fore the sake of growth. your disgusting nihilism and the suffering associated with it are worth my brother coming into existence in a way where he doesn’t eternally hurt himself or others.
Also reminds me of Voltaire's Pangloss who keeps saying we live in the best world possible even when he sees all the misery and shit. Kek he really exists
do you think you wouldn’t ruin heaven? you think you wouldn’t ruin anywhere good with the ty
especially in an eternal context
>god says our eternal existence with him is worth the temporary suffering required to bring us into eternal existence
Seems petulant to me
>the goal is for you to be able to exist eternally with god and your family in love and growth and this is how you get there dude
So why can't he create me already able to do that. No reason he can't.
it wouldn’t be you?
Just make it me. There should be nothing stopping him from doing that sbd still making it me.
see
this is a waste of time
continued
and even when he gives you that it will be your choice which is the thing god values from you
>that it will be your choice
Is it really my choice if it was seen i would choose it long before I existed?
just because i know the end state of a system doesn’t negate indeterminacy within it. just cause i know all the radioactive particles will eventually decay doesn’t mean i can know the order (due to quantum uncertainty creating symmetry in that each particle is equally likely to decay) and in that same way god can know your worth the effort without knowing the path you will take throughout existence to get there
God not knowing the specifics would kinda go against the all knowing thing.
he knows all possible paths? it’s your choice which one you go down and i know it’s hard to believe god would value you enough to choose your own path but he does, your ability to accept the truth of existence or go into a state of psychosis is proof of that reality
>it’s your choice which one you go down
So does he not already know which path ill choose? If so the choice was mearly an illusion as I would always choose that one. If not then God would not be all knowing.
It's been explained millions of times. There a multiple threads up right now with this exact quote.
it’s been explained to you over thousands of years dude. there are children that can be brought into eternity but wouldn’t survive being brought straight to heaven. this suffering is our birthing pains but beyond that do you realize how pahetic you guys sounds? MUH SUFFERING IS POINTLESS!!! what? are you serious? you don’t think there is a correct place for suffering within eternal existence? no, what your really mad about is that your not omnipotent and free from consequences. seethe more about your limitations and continue to deny reality.
>your not
argument discarded.
found the redditor lol, makes sense you think your to good for reality with your tranny porn shit
He never said that
> Another anti-Christian israelite thread.
He actually never said that, btw.
Please provide the primary source for this shit.
> If God exist, become bad thing happen! :~~*((
Because we don't follow God the ultimate good? And because he's not just good, but just, he lets have free will to experience the evil we created?
Simple enough.
I cannot imagine the level of "good Goyim" midwittery necessary to buy into the kike religion of athiesm.
> GOD DOESN'T EXIST BECAUSE I CAN'T SEE HIM OUTSIDE OF MUH WINDOW!
> WE LIVE IN LE MULTIVERSE AND THE UNIVERSE WAS CREATED WHEN NOTHING EXPLODED INTO SOMEHING!
> TRUST THE SCIENCE, GOYIM!
> CAUSALITY IS NOT REAL!
Define evil
A baby getting raped to death
the dude who rapes a baby to death doesn't think it's evil
Well, he's wrong
nta
How do you know that?
He would be able to remove evil by calling the apocalypse. Are you ready anon?
If God doesn't like sodomy, why he create a universe he know will have sodomy in it?
The totality of reality was perfect, why add sodomy into the mix..
God knows what I will have for breakfast tomorrow. He even goes as far as writing it on my fridge: HAM SANDWHICH
Tomorrow, when I'm choosing what to have for breakfast, is it possible for me to choose cereal?
>muh malevolence
a father who misery-proofs the life of his offspring is malevolent, not the otherway around.
No?
Already debunked. But atheists keep bringing this crap here, over and over again.
Atheism is a disease.