Lets try a thread like this.
Theists, what do you think is the best or strongest argument for atheism?
Atheists, what do you think is the best or strongest argument for theism?
The other side
Lets try a thread like this.
Theists, what do you think is the best or strongest argument for atheism?
Atheists, what do you think is the best or strongest argument for theism?
Fascinating thread actually
>Atheists, what do you think is the best or strongest argument for theism?
To me its the idea that God is a metaphysical being that exists outside of reality itself, and thus is beyond evidence. We cannot prove or disprove him. This however is still a poor argument for religion itself in my opinion.
Pretty much this. If you could some how interact with a metaphysical being, that wouldn't necessarily mean that it's the god of any given religion nor that it's existence validates them either.
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https://twitter.com/hyxpk/status/1293215613158977538
>Theists, what do you think is the best or strongest argument for atheism?
When I cut off your head, or sedate you with drugs, you are going to see a void of blackness, or a black sea of ice.
>But I won't percieve it
Yes you will, and since time is suspended, you will see it forever.
:^)
Has it ever occured to you that an eternity in heaven is equally as terrifying?
No, because I can masturbate and eat chocolate all day.
>No free-will in heaven
Says who, and Adam ate the apple so, therefore, I choose not to see the black void. But it's there, and it will consume everything.
Anon, I don't think you quite understand just how long an eternity is.
Then I will choose to be re-incarnated as an Angel, and kill people all day, but instead of wings, I will have a jetpack, and a ninja sword. I will literally, go back in time, while doing backflips and slaughtering millions. Then I will carve my name into the pyramids, and have sex with mermaids.
And then what anon? You seem to have a hard time understanding the concept of eternity. Someday none of your exploits will be novel. And then what? Its not like you can die.
Then I will fuck with the countless alien civilizations, imploding stars and larping as a God (lol mormons). You seem to lack an imagination, boredom is a sign of a lazy mind.
And then what? Eternity means that the chances you'll exhaust your imagination is...100 percent....
Sounds better than a black void forever. Judging by the universe, I think god agrees.
You would've exhausted that imagination within the first million years at most. This goes beyond imagination anyways. Every process you percieve will no longer be novel. The act of thinking itself will become trivial eventually. What will happen is you'll effectively be dead no matter what. Logically, life requires change, if there is no change, there is no life. A scenario of eternal consciousness is functionally no different than death, it'll just be a much slower death.
>Logically, life requires change, if there is no change, there is no life.
You are proving my point more than yours. Just going to reincarnate as an Angel with a jetpack again, and smoosh babies or something. That's something I haven't tried.
It depends on if you retain your memories after you reincarnate. If you don't then your current self is dying anyways. If you do by some contrivance, then my original point still stands. Eternal consciousness is just a slow death
>Eternal consciousness is just a slow death
Why? When I'm bored, I have a nap and dream or masturbate. Same applies if I am eternal, are you going to die on this hill? While I have a cool jetpack, wings and tits? Sounds irrational.
...right, so let me try and break this down
eternity, yeah? Its a super, super duper long time. I hope that helps. You seem to be struggling with this idea
Yes, an an eternity, in a black void, is even worse. You don't seem to understand that. You can believe what ever you wish, but a belief in NOTHING, is not a belief of ANYTHING. You still can't seem to explain, that why during brain death, or sedation, nothing is there, yet we can still perceive it, and hear our bones crunching or whatever. I will think about jetpacks, ninja swords, and angels instead, and by some miracle, that shit will appear. What are you going to do? NOTHING.
>eternity, in a black void
Not him, but why do you think that this is somehow the alternative?
Because I have actually died, and I have actually been sedated for operations.
I shave also been sedated, never experienced this black void of yours.
Sure thing buddy. I bet you percieved heaven or saint peter or whatever you would like. The fact is, if I smoke you in the head with a hammer, you are going to see a lot of nothing, and yet, when you awake, you will remember, the nothing.
I didn't perceive anything, I just went under and then I woke up.
Reminds me of a girl I knew who used to call getting blackout drunk her personal teleport because she'd never remember how she got home.
>Yes, an an eternity, in a black void, is even worse.
Its not better or worse, its effectively the same thing, just quicker. There is no advantages to heaven or eternal consciousness.
The thing is that for life to even be meaningful it has to end. An eternal life sounds absolutely meaningless.
Alan Watts made the following argument about life and death, Instead of reducing it down to jusrt ninja swords, I hope you take this to heart. We need to cope with death in a healthy way, and what you're doing just isn't that
>If you are aware of a state which you call ”is” – or reality, or life – this implies another state called ”isn’t” – or illusion, or unreality, or nothingness, or death. There it is. You can’t know one without the other. And so, as to make life poignant, it’s always going to come to an end. That is exactly, don’t you see?, what makes it lively. Liveliness is change, is motion.
Tell that to my jetpack and ninja sword. You must be a ton of fun at parties.
Okay, but if you live your life tied down by religious obligation over the promise of ninja swords, and it just doesn't happen in end, you would've robbed yourself of the only meaningful life you could've had for no reason.
Alan Watts also makes the following argument about life
>“We thought of life by analogy with a journey, a pilgrimage, which had a serious purpose at the end, and the thing was to get to that end, success or whatever it is, maybe heaven after you’re dead. But we missed the point the whole way along. It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing or to dance while the music was being played.”
I hope you enjoy the music anon
>Okay, but if you live your life tied down by religious obligation over the promise of ninja swords, and it just doesn't happen in end, you would've robbed yourself of the only meaningful life you could've had for no reason.
I don't have any, religious obligations, other than reading books about magic and praying to a God, who seems indifferent.
>I hope you enjoy the music anon
I did, thank you.
Maybe your mind is weak, and your gf is a whore, I'm not sure how you don't perceive being unconscious. I usually am quite upset that I am blind and can't move my limbs.
>I'm not sure how you don't perceive being unconscious.
That's a contradiction in terms. What you're describing is not unconsciousness, it's some form of sleep paralysis.
Anon, I have been unconcious many times. One time when I was 10 years old, my friend and I were playing basketball and his fat ass bounced my head off the pavement, I was out cold for 5 minutes and I could hear EVERYTHING people were saying. Again, this summer, I was dehydrated and tried to get up to take a piss, everything started going BLACK, so I went to the bathroom and collapsed, as the blackness set in, I mustered every last bit of strength and will I had, propped myself up against the bathtub, and light a cigarette. Then, pure BLACK. You brain doesn't seem to work right.
Anon, you go unconcious every single time you go to sleep. Unless you had a dream that night, guess what? You wake up the next morning without ever having percieved the hours you've been asleep. Thats what death is, you're just going to sleep.
No anon, you definitely perceive it. Try having another operation, or choke yourself out, the last thing you see is black, and since you won't wake up, that's the last thing you will perceive, and you will perceive it forever.
Well anon, considering you're still typing retarded bullshit, it seems to me like you don't actually know what death is like, since you've clearly never actually died, doesn't matter if you think you've been "close to death" by your logic anyways, you're either alive or dead. There is no black void after you die. I don't even think you care about heaven, since you've still never bothered actually exploring the real implications of it, no, I think its much more cynical, you seem to just want eternal punishment for your enemies after they die.
Can you refute this?
>they didn't die
well that was pretty easy to refute
All of them died retard, and are still dead. They did the tasks automatically, while unconscious.
No I am basing it on my own experience, and it's backed up by several tests performed by scientists and doctors. That's why it's important to tell people to "wake up" when they are unconscious, because they actually hear it. There are several studies, I'm not posting them all. The black void seems to have triggered you muchly, don't worry, it's all consuming, and arriving shortly.
>They did the tasks automatically, while unconscious.
So they didn't die
Great, next argument please
>not while unconcious
>but yes
>but they didn't die
nice goal posts. I have however, and I am back to rub it in your face. Enjoy the black dude.
There is no black void dude, and you don't actually want to live forever, nobody does.
There is, you seem scared.
I think its more like the idea of life ending one day seems to frighten you. Again, its important to learn to cope with death in a healthy way. We're all going to the same exact place, all of this will be over someday. All your pleasures sure but also all of your troubles. Humans are humble compared the universe we inhabit. I don't think anyone deserves a place of permanence in this universe.
>life ending one day seems to frighten you
sure I'm making it all up, I am totally not an old fuck who has been through hell.
>Again, its important to learn to cope with death in a healthy way.
Yes I told you, I think about jetpacks and ninja swords.
>We're all going to the same exact place
Which is a black void.
>All your pleasures sure but also all of your troubles. Humans are humble compared the universe we inhabit. I don't think anyone deserves a place of permanence in this universe.
That's your opinion sweety, mines backed up by science, and since I worship Saint Michael, then likely he will save my retarded ass.
God bless.
Thats not a healthy way to cope with death. You have to be willing to accept the possibility that your life will be over someday. Even if you don't believe it, you have to consider this a real scenario. I think life is meaningful because it ends. I think death is unavoidable because eternal consciousness and the secession of consciousness have the same exact implications. I find comfort in knowing my struggles will end someday, and that life and the universe itself will go on after I'm gone. These are healthy copes. Hoping people end up in a black void is not.
My dear, I have already told you, I have been to the otherside, a few times, and there is absolutely nothing there, how can I remember that, if I wasn't able to perceive it?
>I find comfort in knowing my struggles will end someday, and that life and the universe itself will go on after I'm gone. These are healthy copes. Hoping people end up in a black void is not.
I disagree, life is a battlefield, and there is a black void at the end. I am going to squish the remaining light that I can percieve, into a ninja sword and jetpack. Then I will travel back from the edge of existence, come over to your house, and bang your mother in front of you, while holding my ninja sword made of light to your throat. Then you can have your peace, and comfort, knowing, what I know, is actually true. But you will probably instead, begin to cry, because the mere sight of my majestic heavily being will frighten you, and my throbbing penis, oscilating, to and fro inside your mother, will give you an automatic boner, because you are simply an animal, that runs on instinct, as am I, but I have more tools.
I will laugh and your mother will gasp. And you will cry out "Saint Michael! Save me!" but then, you will realize, I am Saint Michael incarnate, and I have come to exact revenge, because you killed my bro Jesus.
Seems like my point of view, makes a lot more sense.
>I think its more like the idea of life ending one day seems to frighten you
have you considered that you may be massively projecting?
Life NOT ending someday actually sounds way more terrifying to me
>There is no black void dude
t. black void dude
Are you a p-zombie? NPCs and NPC-adjecent individuals often have a hard time understanding what consciousness is.
>"I have been unconscious many times!"
>proceeds to describe situations where he was conscious
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/even-hours-before-they-die-unresponsive-people-can-hear-new-study-suggests/article_2c265ec6-a985-5d68-a2fd-e3ccafdd1a0b.html
Good argument.
Unresponsive doesn't mean unconscious, moron.
>I can't read
It's ok I will force feed it to you.
>The research involved eight patients at a hospice doing a hearing task when they were still responsive. Five of them repeated the task when they became unconscious.
>they became unconscious.
>they became unconscious.
>they became unconscious.
So you're basing your entire view of consciousness on the word choice of some hack writing for thestar.com? Amazing.
>A scenario of eternal consciousness is functionally no different than death, it'll just be a much slower death.
And how do you know that? We can't just go visit and see now can we? But if you were a God surely you'd make eternity interesting
There are only so many ways to make eternity interesting anon. Its possible for novelty itself to lose its novelty. Its just logic. You don't need to go to heaven to understand this. Maybe God can just force you to never be bored...but at that point are you even still the same person?
>Atheists genuinely offer the best arguments
>Christians are disingenuous shits
LMAO
Atheist here. This is the best argument I've seen for the existence of God:
>The universe follows certain patterns. Things of a similar kind behave a like manner. From this, it can be inferred that there must be a cause as to these patterns. Since everything in the universe obeys a pattern, then there must be a reason for them. Therefore, that which has brought about these rules of nature, reflected in patterns we observe, is what we may call "God".
>Atheists, what do you think is the best or strongest argument for theism?
Probably the contingency argument. Mind you, I don't think it gets you anywhere close to any of the religious gods, but it's still quite clever.
>Atheists, what do you think is the best or strongest argument for theism?
Consciousness and lack of understanding of Abiogenesis make theism a valid position(for now). If we can figure out how geochemistry changed into biochemistry, I think that is final problem for atheism.
Naw, theists will just assert that God still ultimately created that lab grown life since god created the humans capable of doing it. I mean after all, humans create life all the time when they have sex and reproduce, so why should life created in a lab be any different?
The most interesting stuff in abiogenesis research is attempts at finding out pieces of the puzzle that we can make work with no or minimal interference (i.e. by emulating an environment that is plausible to arise naturally).
Doesn't matter, theists will just assert that God allows those natural conditions to create life. Just like how theists asserted God created the Earth, then we found out how Earth formed, so then God just made the solar system, but then we figured out how stars formed, so then the argument was that God was ultimately behind the Big Bang and so on...
Sure, but who cares? The question of "how can X happen under naturalism" doesn't need to be aimed at converting theists.
The point of this thread was to present the best possible arguments for theism and atheism though. All I'm saying is that its just not that strong of an argument for atheism.
>humans with ears connected to their brain by an auditory nerve can respond to sounds
wooow
Guess I'll believe in spooky void stuff now
so silly
I think life is meaningless if it ends. You can't have meaning if I don't get to live forever.
If life never ended, then literally nothing would matter or be important, there would be no mortal implications to anything. Life would be far more meaningless if it never ended.
>strongest argument for atheism?
Bad thing happen.
I don't know, maybe the Creator has different priorities than people who want paradise on a silver platter. Sure, it's an option. For example... If you could write a story, wouldn't you want the characters to have struggles to spice it up?
Yes, that is how humans write stories.