The (many) lies pornographers tell Porn counting goes like this: 1, 2, 3, Gang, “INSERT FANTASY NUMBER HERE.” And basically everything else is a lie also.

1. Porn stars are breaking into the mainstream

You’re not cast as the stripper who dances naked at the bachelor party and then has a coat hook put through the back of her head while she’s fucking the star because you have potential as a character actress. You’ll get offered ‘Third junkie hooker’ because junkie hookers one and two get to keep their clothes on and there’s a line of real actresses out the door fighting to do those parts, and getting a five episode story arc on CSI doesn’t count when they’re using your notoriety for free publicity. The mainstream’s happy to inject a little pornster sex-appeal when they need it, and know most are so desperate for mainstream recognition they’ll take $250 for a twelve hour day as long as they don’t have to screw anyone.

2. Teens

Women are only teenage and legal for two years. Tiffany Teen’s been online since 2003 and if you think that she was eighteen when she started… wanna buy a bridge? You can’t really fault women who exploit the borderline-pedophile market but seriously, when was the last time you saw a real teenager in a pink mini-skirt and pigtails?

3. Sluts

Despite what it says on the box, if you call a woman – even a porn performer – a nasty cum-drinking bitch when your not having sex with her, she’s probably going to knee you in the nuts. The tubby mommies-boys and misogynists who market porn want you to think the way they view women is how women in porn see themselves. Try calling a performer a ‘dirty cock-socket’ at a trade-show if you think it is, in fact, true. Watch your head.

4. Reality Porn

You go for a drive with a few friends. Seeing a cute girl on the street you stop to offer her a ride. She sees four guys in a van, one of whom has a video camera, and gets in. You ask to see her tits and she says no, so you offer her a hundred bucks to fuck you and your buddy. She thinks about it, realizes she’s always wanted to be a prostitute, asks for two hundred, and jumps on your dick. You’re not wearing a rubber and she’s a total stranger but neither of you are worried because, like, what are the odds? You stop the van and persuade her to get out. Then ‘for a joke’ you drive off without paying her and sell the video on the internet. She obviously doesn’t tell anyone because you manage to do this three times a week in the same neighborhood without any difficulty for then next five years. If that seems real too you – man you have to see this bridge…

5. Cock length and bust size

New rule. Any guy claiming to pack over nine inches has to photograph their junk beside an ice-pick like an explorer who’s found a strange footprint; and guys, the number in a bra-size is a chest measurement. 54C? That’s Barbra Bush. Enjoy your masturbation

6. Gangbang numbers

We’ll forget that you’re watching a gangbang and what that means – “There are hundred of guys standing around wanking in this movie and one bored woman… I’m buying it.” – but given testing costs, catering logistics and basic rates of pay you’d be insane to believe the numbers producers put on the boxes of ‘gangbang’ movies. Even if you could get 500 guys in a room, tested, fed and paid half of them wouldn’t be able to get it up, half of those left wouldn’t be able to get it out, and half of the remainder would sneeze all over the thighs of the guy in front of him while waiting in line for seconds. It’s why gangbang movies always have a number of well-known male performers on-hand to do the job. Porn counting goes like this 1, 2, 3, Gang, “INSERT FANTASY NUMBER HERE”

7. Fame

The most famous living pornographers are Hugh Hefner, Larry Flynt and Ron Jeremy. Hefner’s an institution (that institution’s a cross between Michael Jackson’s Neverland and a Greyhound station) while Flynt and Jeremy are both thirty-year veterans who’ve been the subject of mainstream movies. Jenna? A distant fourth, and being fourth most famous anything is like being the fourth largest army in the world – India – no one cares. Porn will not make you famous – unless you think that the ninth most famous magician in America’s a pretty famous dude (admit it – you got stuck after David Copperfield, David Blaine, Siegfried and Roy).

8. Alt Porn

Traditionally porn performers get paid a fixed daily rate, don’t get any residual pay and have no real control over the product they’re in. The product itself features skinny white girls from the flyover states who get hired because of how they look and how they fuck. Or is that alt-porn? Janine’s been rocking tatts and attitude for a decade while raising two kids without ever being labeled ‘alt’ anything. A tattoo and a bad dye-job is not going to upset ‘the system’ and the ‘alternative’ to traditional porn is independence, control and new ideas not haircuts, piercings and hip records.

9. Art Porn

The defense of bad art is always the same. “Who are you to judge?” Well I’m happy to judge and so are you. Bach was a better composer than Yanni, and Monet was a better painter than Thomas Kincaid. If you disagree that’s not an opinion, it’s proof you’re an imbecile. Art porn has yet to scale the heights of ‘Dogs Playing Poker’ and it all sucks.

10. Porn Stars are Rich

If you grew up in a town where having tread on your spare tire made you wealthy, porn is incredibly lucrative. If you think it’s unfair to get paid $2,000 for a movie named after you which makes $500,000 in its first year of release you might not be ‘porn star’ material. The average studio contract is about $75K a year and if you’re lucky you’ll hold it for five. During that time you’ll eat as carefully, and train as hard, as a professional athlete, you won’t be able to start a family, and you’ll exclude yourself permanently from a range of other career options in return for the take-home pay of a McDonalds night-manager. Porn’s like professional sport, the rich people are the (content) owners. Unlike professional sport there is no minimum wage, hardly any licensing and no players association. Want to be a rich adult performer? Build a website.

P.S. Protect your privacy with NordVPN.

Founder, TGP.com.

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anna logue
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anna logue

Right gently caressing ON with #8. I’m astonished that the ‘woman-friendly’, woman-owned, model-friendly, happy alternative sites invariably pay much less than mainstream porn and demand much more. Suicide Girls, to me, is just Playboy-style skinny white chicks with tattoos. Nothing else is alternative about them.

Paul Markham
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Paul Markham

Can you tell me the porn movie that grossed $500K in it’s entire lifetime. Beside Debbie Does Dallas, Deepthroat and few others very few porn movies get into the 6 figure bracket.

But then what the gently caress do I know I’ve only been shooting porn three decades.

One of the reasons we don’t make big bucks is guys like sugar promoting sites like GUBA who stael content from free sites.

Sam Sugar
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Sam Sugar

Paul – this is of course debatable, but each year a number of high-budget, shot on film adult movies are made. Many cost 5-6 figures, all are profitable and many eclipse $500K in their lifetime. From last year ‘Pirates’ and ‘The New Devil In Miss Jones’ are likely candidates. Most of the high-end softcore has an enormously long shelf-life too and good international sales. Once you factor in Internet and TV sales those numbers can be achieved without selling 50K units on DVD.

If you’re paying talent $2,000-$5,000 a day – as some of the bigger softcore producers do – and you have 5-6 women on a five-day shoot, and you’re shooting film you need to be making six figures to clear a profit at all.

You have a lot more experience than I do but the market I’ve been closest to is looking at high five figures as a starting point, with sales online, internationally and on TV for everything they produce. This isn’t gonzo material of course…

I would also argue your point about any lack of profitability being caused by Guba. The people who subscribe to that service are willing to part with money. Meanwhile there are plenty of ways to get all of that content without spending a dime.

I mean no disrespect but if you want advice on your website – feel free to drop me a line.

Paul Markham
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Paul Markham

Sam let me educate you on the ways of Porno. Private will pay $5,000 a scene for a film on tape and a set on digital. The content has to be shot to the highest standards.
The movies that make the most money are as you rightly point out the full production ones and they are aimed at the Cable/Satelite and Hotel chains. They might cost as much as 5 figures to produce, but never anywhere near 6 figures.
The models are paid between $1,000 to $3,000 a scene, the higher ones would be the elite porn stars. They might also be booked on a “1 week, 5 scense” deal at a whole price.
The profit in porn is the continual treadmill of putting out 10 titles a week, if we were making the fugures you think we would not put out so much.
Trust me I know these things.
My argument with GUBA is not that the surfer will spend money, it’s that GUBA do not. They trawl newsgroups for their content and do not pay anyone anything for it.
Yes some of the content is put up by paysites to generate traffic, but GUBA neither license4, pay or even check on the age of the models. How much of newsgroups is under age content? They don’t know becasue they don’t have the documents.

Sam Sugar
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Sam Sugar

Valid point. GUBA do profit from exploiting a loophole in most ISP’s (who make newsgroup access difficult or impossible). The legal situation’s interesting for sure. They must have lawyers but you’re right, as a ’secondary producer’ they’d need 2257 on anything explicit they carry.

Yes – a lot of people make 10 movies a week but some people don’t.

I can’t use examples of companies I know – they wouldn’t appreicate me sharing their numbers – but look at ‘Studio A Entertainment’ (who I’ve not worked for).

They shoot on location, models are paid $2,000 a day for days at a time (many of their models are friends of mine) and often they’ll shoot on film.

High-end softcore is vastly more profitable than hardcore and the cycles are far longer. Look at any compnay who only put out a movie once every 2-3 months and simply do the math. If those titles grossed what low-end hardcore did they’d not be able to afford office space.

Online – look at Mac and Bumble. They’ll take 15 models to an Island, pay expenses and $2-5K a day. Look at Mystique Models… It might not be a world you’re in touch with but I’m not making it up I swear. When you’re selling your DVD’s in Virgin and Tower Records as well as the local jack-shack the numbers look different…

Mike V
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Mike V

In the end, whether it’s alt- or not, mainstream or not, hardcore or not, naturally hairy or not or a girl in pancake makeup with blue hair masturbating with a crucifix in a cemetary, doesn’t it just boil down to commercial exploitation of a specific market?

Furry Girl
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Furry Girl

I don’t think that running an adult with with a theme is “commercially exploiting a market”, at least not in the vicious tone you seem to be using. That argument can be used in such a broad way that everyone who sells or trades or barters anything is “exploiting a market”, from a huge shemale porn site to kids on the corner selling lemonade.

Mike V
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Mike V

Woah there, Furry Girl. You’re going to want to rein in that indignation. What was vicious about my tone?

Anyway, you’re right. You can use the argument in a broad way if you want to — but I’m not. I’m using it applied specifically to the debate about what is or isn’t alt-porn, and even more specifically, why splitting (dreadlocked) hairs about what is or isn’t alt- is silly, as all “alt” really is is a label that is attractive to a certain demographic. Unless you got into porn because you love it as an art form, the bottom line is the dollar — and all “alt” indicates is “Hey, you folks that like alt-porn, come over here and give me your dollars!”

Forrest Black
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Forrest Black

That was a great article. Having personally covered some of the big ‘world record setting’ gangbang events as onsite press, that one really struck me as particularly funny.

On some level I do agree with Sam on the ‘altporn’ lie. That is to say that I don’t feel that corporate ‘valley’ adult video can produce anything that actually lives up to the marketed idealist notions used to generate such a buzz about ‘altporn’. By video industry standards, yes, all Janine would have to do is approach her work with a measure more smarm and Silverlake faux irony, not to mention significantly reduced production values, and she’d be the biggest star in the genre. There is an air of irreverent DIY independence connoted by the ‘altporn’ term or label, and I simply can’t accept the idea that traditional corporate product can live up to that notion. Then again, I think that term was originally coined by corporate interests eager to exploit the tattooed and pierced teen market space.

Now as far as FurryGirl goes, honestly, she can kinda gently caress off if that’s what she thinks of the counter-culture oriented sites. If she wants to attack the ‘altporn’ garbage the mainstream industry is putting on the video store shelves, that’s fine. However, if she doesn’t like any of the sites featuring sexy photography of playfully menacing pale-skinned hot girls in the cemetary, it just means maybe she doesn’t belong in that arena and maybe she should consider looking for support elsewhere. She does traditional amateur content that is ‘alternative’ in her mind because it’s trying to dispose of ANY standard of beauty, rather than appeal to a counter-culture standard. Sites focused on her fetish for not grooming and sexualizing messy menstruation really have very little to do with counter-culture erotica, or its degraded valley porn cousin ‘altporn’.

Furry Girl
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Furry Girl

Oh, look, it’s something on the web that mentions alt porn! Did someone just get their Google alert?

The only time Forrest Black or Amelia G ever surface is to spam their sites or go on and on about how important and legendary they think they are. (By the way, they’ve talked more shit and attacked other sites in the alt porn niche a hundred times more than I ever have, and for nothing but petty self-aggrandizing reasons.)

I don’t hate alt porn. There’s this funny us-versus-them mentality that always surfaces in smut debates. I have a lot of barbs for the mainstream adult industry, and whenever I’ve brought them up in debates mainstream adult webmaster boards, it’s always met with, “You hate porn! Find a new industry if you hate porn so much!” Let me tell everyone a little secret- people are often the most critical of the things they care the most about. As a whole, I love porn and I love alt porn, but I’ll be the first in line to point out the many failings of both in hopes of having some people listen and create something better.

What I am against is how thoroughly mediocre some of the alt porn genre is. Much of it doesn’t challenge mainstream beauty standards or do anything noteworthy. I’m ultimately an optimist with what alt porn could be if it were willing to actually do something different, from the type of porn featured to how models are treated.

(A number of sites in the alt porn world, Forrest & Amelia included, have this bizarre standard of wanting models to shoot with them for free at first to show how much they supposedly really love it, and aren’t just in it for the money. What the hell? Making money off models you don’t pay as some kind of punk rock initiation ritual? Imagine if Bang Bus asked performers to shoot a few videos for free first, just to prove how cool they are? I operate on a small budget, and I have started two multi-model sites out of my own pocket, but I have paid every single model on my sites, and I would never be such a prick as to ask someone to work for me for free just to impress me with how vegetarian/period-positive they are.)

There is nothing special about cookie cutter generic “fetish photography” featuring skinny women who are blasted with so much light that they look like two-dimensional paintings. It’s cute and everything that Forrest and Amelia been around shooting this type of porn for a long time, but that still doesn’t make it any good, photographically or politically speaking.

And no, Forrest, my goal is life would never be to make porn that appeals to “counter-culture beauty standards”, since they’re the exact same as mainstream beauty standards. I do my best to de-fetishize porn (models) that are traditionally paraded around as freak shows and to open people up to all types of sexuality and hotness. I’m proud of that aim- I wouldn’t want to devote all my energy to making the same old generic crap day in, day out. But, since that seems to be your aim- go for it, be proud of it, and don’t be so insecure when the rest of us try something different.

Ed Finkler
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Ed Finkler

FG,

I’m not going to get involved in some kind of lame pissing match, but your characterization of Forrest and Amelia is both wildly different from my experiences, and a disappointing ad-hominem attack when none was called for. If you really are interested in doing something special, address issues and make proper arguments.

Forrest Black
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Forrest Black

Ok, number one, Furrygirl, I actually read Sam Sugar’s blog(s). I have for some time. I don’t even have a google alert account.

Number two, what sites have I ever knocked that didn’t turn out to be shams that ended up taking advantage of their models and members? You got pissed off that we took ManicJane to task. How is that going these days? What sites did we knock? Support your negative assertion.

Number three, I didn’t spam my sites, I didn’t even mention my sites actually. I only shared my opinion and perspective. I didn’t self aggrandize or talk at all about how legendary I think I am or whatever. You are totally wrong and out of line.

Number four, we ALWAYS pay models. I don’t know where you got that from, but you are totally and completely wrong on that point.

Nobody said you hated altporn, but you just said some kinda blanket disparaging stuff about the subcultural end of the spectrum and I think it was uncalled for. Seriously, come up with examples of these sites featuring so called tired pictures of girls masturbating in cemetaries. I’m pretty aware of the genre, and I’m not comming up with a lot of examples. I could keep going about what is wrong with what you are saying, but seriously, what is your problem?

Furry Girl
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Furry Girl

Forrest: I wasted half an hour of my time looking for the post in which you stated that Blue Blood prefers to work with models who will shoot with you for free (on occasion/ to start), to screen out girls who are just in it for the money. It was in some thread talking about alt porn and treatment/payment of models in either the sgirls or altporn LJ communities in the last few months, but there are so many thousands of posts & comments in both groups since the fall and I can’t spend all night trying to quote you.

I have this wicked-good memory for remembering any adult company that underpays/doesn’t pay/rips off/antagonizes talent, and I’ll give you a big old kiss in black lipstick if I ever discover that I was wrong about mentally filing you under that list of companies. But, frankly, you’re not worth staying up all night searching the web for a quote about. So, if you want to sit there and say, “I can honestly swear that we have paid money to every model for every single session she’s been a part of”, it’s simply my memory against yours, and we’re at a draw.

I don’t like the corporate politics of Suicide Girls any more than most people, but you’ve consistently used bashing SG as a vehicle to spam your company. All I ever see of you or Amelia in alt porny groups (other than pic posts) is one of you whining about how you how people should pay more attention to you. I am not the first or only person to call you on constantly promoting your sites under the guise of bashing SG or “talking about alt porn.” And, since September or so, with yet-to-be-launched Gods Girls site getting attention, you’ve also been all over bashing them as a means to talk about yourself. You and Amelia both cling to the buzz word “community” to describe your company and act as though you personally hand-fed every indie/alt pornographer and made them who they are today, but all I’ve ever seen you contribute to a “community” is inserting yourselves into conversations that have nothing to do with you so you can drop your own names. If that’s “building community”- give me some solitude.

You and I never had a argument about anything to with with Manic Jane, so I don’t get why you’re trying to “put me in my place” by alluding to some non-existent fight we supposedly had about them. Please don’t confuse with me with any of your other detractors.

You claim that you never ever talk about yourself and your sites? In which part of the following recent posts are you NOT talking about yourself or your sites?

http://community.livejournal.com/sgirls/385478.html
http://community.livejournal.com/sgirls/380578.html?thread=8410274#t84 10274
http://community.livejournal.com/sgirls/372834.html (cross-posted in another group, too)

Lastly, although I’m sure you’d like to think that you’re extremely important and that I spend lots of time thinking about you, I really don’t have that kind of time and energy. I just find it obnoxious that you never contribute anything meaningful to the “community” you espouse, instead only making an appearance when you have a chance to talk about how legendary you think you are. (See original post, under #7: Fame.)

Forrest Black
Guest
Forrest Black

FurryGirl, we’re at a draw??? You make this stuff up, and put total falsehoods on the internet about me and what I do, then you tell me it isn’t worth your time supporting your nonesense, and we’re at a draw? I don’t think so.

You can’t find that statement about not paying, and you won’t ever find it, because I never said it! Save the kiss for yourself, I think you’d look like a poseur in black lipstick anyway.

As far as ‘bashing’ sites, ManicJane was the only one I could think of where I took them to task. I have good relationships with most of the sites in the genre. Now if I see someone doing something I think is wrong or out of line, yeah, I might call them on it. I called you on your statements in this thread, but that doesn’t mean I’m ‘bashing’ your site, I just think you said some unsupportable rude things.

I asked you to come up with examples of the payment issue you accused us of and you can’t support your claim. I asked you to come up with a list of other sites I supposedly attacked and you can’t do that either. If there were so many as you claimed, then it shouldn’t have been hard.

I never said that I NEVER talk about things I’ve done or whatever, I think it’s pretty normal to state your experience or qualifications when talking about something. But, I feel if I support my statement, people like you will say I’m ‘going on about how important I am’ or whatever. Yeah, guess what? I exist. I’ve been doing this for a very long time. If just pointing that out offends you, I just don’t know what to do about that.

ok I’ll address the links then:

Link 1. I called SG out on their “since 2001, bitches…” statement. They corrected it within hours. Big deal? That’s hardly bashing, particularly given the amount of negativity swirling around them lately.

Link 2. I mentioned in an appropriate conversation that one of my sites was written up by Jane Magazine some time back, and faux_glock asked me if I knew the Offworld Media people. Those are the people that own GodsGirls, even though faux_glock had previously claimed she owned and ran it. That’s hardly the height of calling her out on misinforming the public about her site’s corporate porn backing vs. claimed female owned indie roots.

Link 3. That was a totally appropriate question for a discussion thread within that community. I didn’t spam my sites or self aggrandize at all. So much so that a person in the thread asked if I was having them do the work for my supposed research paper for school. Wow, you really got me there, talking about the subject matter. I feel like you are trying to give me a ticket for something like ‘driving while qualified.’

So, in conclusion, if you don’t have the time and energy to find any truth supporting your wildly inaccurate and damaging accusations, you shouldn’t put them out there.

Furry Girl
Guest
Furry Girl

As someone who has been repeatedly sold as a horny little teenie (by half-wit affiliates who never make any sales anyway), I HATE the crazed passion our industry has with labeling every female a “teen”, as though that is the one and only word they know.

I recently passed a rule that my affiliates are no longer allowed to call me a teen or sell me using “young”-specific wording, and I’m about to boot a “big name” free site from my affiliate program for not returning my emails about removing me from their teen page. They’re also listing Carol Cox as an amateur teen girl. She’s in her 40s, and she’s certainly not trying to fool anyone into thinking she is 14. (Notice that a good third of the women featured on that page have pigtails and a, “Gee jolly mister, I’ve never touched my private parts before!” smile.)

And oh-so-true on the pig tails and giggles and pink outfits. No teenager would be caught dead in an outfit created for a 4-year-old. REAL TEEN GIRLS are nothing if not obsessed with looking older.

As for the alt porn thing, I see it both ways. I think that much of self-identified “alt porn” is nothing more than the same skinny white chicks as “mainstream porn”, just plastered in different makeup and cheap Hot Topic garb. (And don’t get me started on how painfully cliche most of the photography is on goth/punk porn sites. Haven’t we all had enough of pale goth chicks licking knives menacingly or masturbating in cemeteries?)

There is nothing alternative or particularly interesting about showcasing cookie-cutter-pretty petite white women. BUT, and to toot my own horn a bit, there are some great “alt porn” sites that actually have true alternative portrayals of sexuality- big women and genderfuckers and menstruating masturbators and transfolk and real queers and women taking charge of sexual situations and non-whites being presented without racial stereotyping like “spicy latinas” or “soulfoul sistas” or “eager-to-please rice-eaters”. To me personally, that’s the “alt” I want to see in “alt porn”. But, all too often, I see “alt porners” acting like pissy goth teenagers and defining themselves only by being NOT “preppy”, and obsessing over how much “smarter” and more artistic they are than “porn stars” and “the mainstream”, rather than actually doing anything even the slightest bit different.

Ed Roth
Guest
Ed Roth

Furrygirl, I can think of plenty of examples of sites that fit your rather negative view of “punk/goth” porn, but I can also think of several that are not quite as cynical or predictable as you make them out to be.

“alt” porn is, like it or not, a pretty wideranging label, and it gets applied to things that sometimes aren’t necessarily that related. If you want to use different terms, cool — lots of folks talk about “subcultural erotica” when discussing erotica and porn aimed at the punk and gothic subcultures. When people ask me about my site, I usually try to throw that in there as *part* of what I cover.

I don’t think it’s cool to bash folks who don’t do extremely niche work just because you feel they’re not pushing boundaries enough. Yeah, I find a lot of shit boring just like you, and yeah it bugs me some that there are a lot of people who swallow the shit that gets marketed to them, but I also enjoy and see the artistic value in folks who are doing good, honest, quality work in the punk/gothic areas. If they choose not to shoot women with bloody panties or big pakistani girls gently caressing a tranny in the ass with a strapon, that’s their choice, and I don’t think that choice invalidates their work in any way.

Sabrina
Guest
Sabrina

It was at points 8, 9, and 10 that I decided the “Sam Sugar is my god” tattoo wasn’t a mistake after all. Hell, I’m making art porn (well, sorta) and I still laugh at how bad and cheesy it is…

Quinn
Guest
Quinn

Re Teens: I can understand both sides of the teen thing from those producing it and thouse consuming it, but it has also one of the odd bits of this industry.

Sam you would probably know better than I, but I recall there being a survey that showed the younger a woman is when she starts her porn career the shorter it is likely to be.