>switch to wayland
>everything feels snappier and opens much faster
>games just werk as well
Wtf, you guys lied to me.
>switch to wayland. >everything feels snappier and opens much faster. >games just werk as well
>switch to wayland
>everything feels snappier and opens much faster
>games just werk as well
Wtf, you guys lied to me.
yeah its great
It still sucks balls in 2023. Maybe in a decade or so it will be good enough.
>Xorg is trash!!!!
>Wayland needs 25 years to be "good enough" to replace Xorg
Hmm...
There were less bugs related to window scaling but a ton of little graphical glitches all over the place, and clicking would sometimes actually click on the window behind the current one
>feels
/thread
OP is a homosexual. My nvidia card doesn't work on wayland. I tried all the bootflags.
Shit is DOA.
>novideo
>Linux
you fucked up, anon
Maybe the Wayland devs should consider not alienating 80% of the marketshare.
Wayland devs are the worst. They made terrible design decision and proceeded to fight reality for 5 years every time. Eventually they crack, but it's a bandaid on their flawed design. In this instance was implicit vs explicit sync. A bunch of amateur baseddevs arguing with literal hardware manufacturers about performance and modern graphics pipelines.
Embarrassing, and just like optional vsync they're hacking it in after years of bullshit.
Why not? If you make bad decisions you get to live with them.
I'll just delete my linux partition and live with my superior GPU. I want to love linux, but these shitty devs are trying to push people away.
Sure, don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Xorg still werks
nagger just because you defined it as "bad" it does not mean it is anyhow bad. Nvidia is the only choice if you need CUDA and tensors and neural networks and other shit. You are a homosexual retard who never made anything of value in his life and speaks shit out of his ass. Nvidia is a nagger corporation, yes, just like any other corporation, including AMD.
Adults use NVIDIA because it destroys AMD in performance and support for professional applications, even on Linux.
Enjoy your crashing drivers lmao.
>no global hotkeys
>can't run graphical programs as root
>if you copy from a program and close it the information in the clipboard is lost
>drag and drop still works poorly
>can't screenshot or record screen
>screen scaling still broken
>no VRR because a GNOME tranny threw a hissy fit
>doesn't manage font rendering, pointer rendering or widget rendering; which means that programs will always look different
>also means the mouse pointer stutters at high loads
>doesn't run properly on Nvidia GPUs. There's only 3 GPUs manufacturers so essentially doesn't run on 1/3 of GPUs
Works on my machine. Literally none of that happens.
Liar.
why would I
>>no global hotkeys
>>can't run graphical programs as root
>>if you copy from a program and close it the information in the clipboard is lost
>>drag and drop still works poorly
>>can't screenshot or record screen
damn I was curious about trying wayland why is it so garbage
global hotkeys are there. https://github.com/flatpak/xdg-desktop-portal/pull/711
applications just don't properly support wayland yet.
hi, i think you are confused,
this isn't wayland, this is xdg-desktop-portal, a flatpak project
>cant run gui programs as root
i wasn't thinking about moving to wayland but holy fuck i cant even run quartus for my university like this
>can't run graphical programs as root
why would you?
>no global hotkeys
either hyprland or the xdg portal
> if you copy from a program and close it the information in the clipboard is lost
clipboard manager
>can't screenshot or record screen
all major compositors support screenshots and video capture via portals
> no VRR because a GNOME tranny threw a hissy fit
Don't use fucking Gnome? How is that related to the wayland protocol?
> doesn't manage font rendering, pointer rendering or widget rendering; which means that programs will always look different
That's handled by freetype2 on Xorg also
> doesn't run properly on Nvidia GPUs. There's only 3 GPUs manufacturers so essentially doesn't run on 1/3 of GPUs
Blame nvidia
I think new users confuse Wayland and Gnome because so far it has just been Gnome that sometimes comes default with Wayland
>can't run graphical programs as root
>why would you?
Classic examples: partition editor, system configuration tools
> all major compositors support screenshots and video capture via portals
> via portals
This is exactly the problem. Massive parallel infrastructure is needed just to do the simplest things. And for developers things became exponentially more complicated.
Also have fun with the mandatory dbus dependency for *every* graphical application from now on.
Lightweight protocol my ass!
> That's handled by freetype2 on Xorg also
But on X11 it's centralized. Every app renders fonts the same according to your settings. On Wayland font rendering is all over the place and potentially different for every app.
>Blame nvidia
blame nvidia that wayland compositors use amd/intel specific mesa gbm and refuse to use nvidia egl stream?
>>can't run graphical programs as root
Actually, you can't run a graphical program as any other user.
>why would you?
Because of security.
I don't want want every application that runs as my user to be able to steal my browser cookies.
Pro tip: Flatpak doesn't solve that, because the browser cookies are still under my users /home, readily accessible to everything running as my user.
Snap solved that but it's Canonical so it's evil and they should abandon it for Flatpak:tm:.
GUIX also solved it. I'm not sure if Nix did as well.
xdg-desktop-portal only supports snaps and flatpaks and none-sanboxed.
It's hardcoded like that.
Lets say you would make your wayland session acessible to another user, by bind mounting it into his XDG_RUNTIME_DIR and you would make your dbus available by doing the same and give him token access in policies, or you run a dbus proxy:
You could now start your wayland application under that other user, but xdg-desktop-portal can't deal with that and would throw errors when trying to access /proc/PID.
You gotta patch the portal to support your specific usecase.
>why would you?
Because it's my computer and I run whatever the fuck I please with whatever permissions I want to. I don't have to explain myself because I'm the system's admin.
>either hyprland or the xdg portal
A desktop-specific hack that relies on programs hooking properly to a nonstandard desktop-specific hack in order to work or a shitty bloated standard that still relies on programs to hook properly to it. Terrible design choice.
>clipboard manager
So the supposed "security improvements" of Gayland go out the window.
>all major compositors support screenshots and video capture via portals
Another mediocre hack to make basic functionality available on Gayland. It still is buggy as fuck by the way.
>Don't use fucking Gnome? How is that related to the wayland protocol?
If that doesn't count then all your mediocre DE-specific hacks don't count either, homosexual.
>That's handled by freetype2 on Xorg also
Allow me to repeat myself: >>9717 If Xorg is so bad, why does Gayland struggle so much to gain feature parity with it and why does it have the exact same pitfalls as Xorg does in so many aspects?
Any program that uses Electron, WINE, Java, custom toolkits, Qt/GTK or previous versions of Qt/GTK will forever look bad and out of place because Gayland devs decided that users should use only a single toolkit.
>Blame nvidia
I won't because it ran properly on Xorg and Mir the second of which had only three years of development time and a fraction of the resources and goodwill Gayland has enjoyed.
>Because it's my computer and I run whatever the fuck I please with whatever permissions I want to. I don't have to explain myself because I'm the system's admin.
On KDE with Wayland I can open any file with Kate and it will ask me for my root password only when it needs write access. That's how it should be done
Is it kate or cade?
>Any program that uses Electron, WINE, Java, custom toolkits, Qt/GTK or previous versions of Qt/GTK will forever look bad and out of place because Gayland devs decided that users should use only a single toolkit.
I'm new to this clownery, how exactly do these programs look on Wayland?
A lot of those aren't actually true
Fuck off shill.
To run a graphical program as root on Gayland you must fiddle with polkit bullshit or leverage Xwayland.
I don't even use Wayland on my main system. I don't know why you guys make Xorg/Wayland your personality. It's a tool.
Because Wayland and all the Red Hat crapware makes everything worse, harder to use and all of it is being pushed as the "standard".
They're pushing the GNU desktop to be more like Android than a real desktop OS.
I don't care, I just care about it as a tool and condier its merits as such
Where do you think you are? All this shit began because Stallman refused to accept corporate crapware and their closed systems.
Stallman is a israelite
You are an enemy
I don't care, they both foss
>To run a graphical program as root on Gayland you must fiddle with polkit bullshit or leverage Xwayland.
sudo nautilus
what now homosexual?
>what now homosexual?
Now you got a nautilus window that automatically fell back to xorg and runs in Xwayland, because the wayland display is not available to it.
i haven't seen that image way too long
>can't run graphical programs as root
I'm starting to think that the wayland haters have not in fact used wayland.
they haven't, or at least they haven't in the past 3 years. which makes all their statements invalid by default.
those people have an irrational fear of change. they will never try something new or change anything, because things must remain what they always were.
>at least not in the past 3 years
Funny, because wayland was presented as finished and ready to use by the enduser by GNOME about 3 years ago.
Are you saying that it wasn't ready yet, when they said it's ready?
Is it ready now?
i've been using GNOME on Wayland for the past 5 years. it's been ready for a long time, but you'd never know cause you're probably one of the schizos on here making new threads every day about how much you hate GNOME.
So you are saying that the people, who used it 3 years ago, saw a pristine great and finished product.
Therefore
>or at least they haven't in the past 3 years
is irrelevant, because it was stable and running perfectly all this time.
> GNOME
The most retarded DE made for morons. Of course Wayland is good enough for you. You don't even know how to use a computer.
Ubuntu Mir was more stable in 2014 than Wayland is now, 9 years later.
The wayland idiots from RedHat, who turtled up and couldn't accept that Canonical built something good, cost us almost 10 years of development.
Wayland is literally holding back the Linux Desktop.
I want every wayland homosexual to die a painful death.
actually, it was the fact that Canonical decided not to help out with developing Wayland that made everything stall. that company suffers from the 'not invented here' syndrome, and has to reinvent the wheel whenever possible, even if there's zero need to do so. they did it with Unity as well, trying to reinvent GNOME.
Canonical making Mir and distracting everyone, incl. Intel and various DEs (KDE etc.), is what completely derailed Wayland development and made it take much longer than it had to.
Take meds and stop being a fucking schizo. Wayland people are fine, it's you who needs to adapt or die.
> actually, it was the fact that Canonical decided not to help out with developing Wayland that made everything stall
BS! Developing a graphics protocol is not hard. The Acran dude is just one guy that does a better job just in his spare time than both RetardHat and Moronical combined.
The real problem is reaching community mindshare.
Btw. the community mindshare for Wayland is completely artificial forced by paid shills and consultants paid by IBM and Microsoft. X11 has natural community mindshare.
i think the hardest thing is not inventing a good protocol, but creating backwards compatibility with existing DEs, toolkits, apps etc.
i know Canonical claimed that Mir had good X11 compatibility back in the day, with very little code required to gain that compatibility. but has anyone else actually seen it being used and functioning? also, how could their claim even be possible. Xwayland exists, but it's taken a lot of work to get it in a good state.
with how fast Canonical claimed to have acheived this, i can only assume it was because they ran a full, unchanged Xorg server in the background, which defeats the whole purpose as that would make it hard to get X apps to make full use of the new protocol.
Xwayland, in comparison, is not a full Xorg server. it's a stripped down version that removes a lot from Xorg that's not necessary, or parts that Wayland has taken over.
>i know Canonical claimed that Mir had good X11 compatibility back in the day, with very little code required to gain that compatibility. but has anyone else actually seen it being used and functioning?
It worked but was in alpha stage. Mir was not complete but the thing is Canonical delivered a working alpha build in under 3 years while Red Hat had spent 7 and delivered nothing.
Back in the day Red Hat's FUD was that Canonical was lying about Wayland's shortcomings, that Wayland was safer than Mir and better designed. Lo and behold Wayland in 2018 didn't even have a working clipboard. Mind you, it had over 10 years in development by that point.
And no, Xmir was not a full X server.
wasn't Xmir just a fork of Xwayland?
lol the last line
epin and idiot , sir ! very well posted !
Why can't wayland shills just admit that they are the fucking problem and the protocol is fucking shit? It's always some one else isn't it?
>Nvidia's problem their drivers aren't made in a special team twat way that papers over the cracks in our piss poor protocol.
>Cannonicals problem they had the nerve to try and develop something in 2017 after wayland was in development hell for over a decade.
>Developers problem that they don't redesign their applications from the ground up to work with Wayland compositors
>The users problem that they are using their pc in the wrong way and they actually don't need that feature and should use/do something else.
If Wayland becomes the standard then the majority of users will migrate back to Windows and Linux will be back to under 1% marketshare after valve made Linux relevant for PC's.
>actually, it was the fact that Canonical decided not to help out with developing Wayland
Why would they? Canonical recognized that thebissie with Wayland (which by the way had 5 years of development by that point and had nothing to show for it, not even an alpha build) was its design. Mir purposedlt avoids all the poor design choices that Wayland made.
>that company suffers from the 'not invented here' syndrome, and has to reinvent the wheel whenever possible, even if there's zero need to do so
You mean like Red Hat when they made SELinhx even though AppArmor was already a thing? Or how they made systemd even though Upstart was already a thing? Or how they made Flatpak even though Snap was already a thing?
>hey did it with Unity as well, trying to reinvent GNOME
Canonical approached GNOME with several design ideas and those were all rejected so they did the FLOSS thing: fork the project.
Even today Canonical's GNOME build is far superior than vanilla GNOME by virtue of having sane defaults.
unity is better than Gnome ever was.
Mir was also a working reference implementation!
The protocol made by people who actually develop on a compositor using it.
Not some third party idiots saying:
>huh, i just make the protocol, someone else has to implement it, my only job is to be a pain in the ass
The wayland reference implementation is weston. Weton is dogshit and doesn't work. No sane person would ever use it. What does this say about wayland?
Instead of looking what other modern OSes do for audio and video Red Hat is hellbent on making their own special snowflake designs that lack half the functionality. It makes no fucking sense. GNU is decades behind in audio and video for no reason.
I have to use it on my work laptop. It's a stuttery mess.
Uncomposited X11 is the still absolute king of responsiveness.
> Why shill for it then?
There was one confirmed paid shill on here shilling regularly for Wayland.
Maybe there's more of those.
I have which is why I know it's garbage.
>b-but drag and drop works now!
Only on some usecases.
>b-but screenshots work now!
Only when using DE-specific tools.
>b-but global keybinds work now!
They work through the DE.
>no global hotkeys
Most of the shit in wayland protocols unstable should have been in stable a decade ago. Wayland should have had a privilege system for shit like always on top and screen capture from the very start.
Global hotkeys is just a silly thing for a compositor to concern itself with though. The DE can use standard Linux mechanisms to do this :
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Input_remap_utilities
>can't run graphical programs as root
Fixed for xwayland, just a feature of wayland you have to and can easily live with as a developer.
>can't screenshot or record screen
This comes back to the lack of privilege system, they can't just implement wlr screencopy in the stable protocol without some way for wayland to know it's allowed.
This will not be solved until the wayland devs preventing a native privilege system hang themselves.
>doesn't manage font rendering, pointer rendering or widget rendering; which means that programs will always look different
Not like that was ever universal under X either. Cursor is hardware, but there were some problems. Fixed on kwin, dunno about others.
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=472663
Wayland gayland go rope or something
>everything feels snappier and opens much faster
You made that up.
Benchmarks tell the opposite.
>games just werk
so you don't use wayland
>it does feels smoother somehow even though vrr doesn't work yet on nvidia
>steam and Firefox have spasms attacks and flicker, everything else is fine
>games when fast paced movement is involved look blurry like i'm drunk or something, haven't tried yet if gamescope fixies it but seen it recommended to use it with wayland
Overall not yet ready but getting there
> getting there
getting where?
Where X11 was 20 years ago?
Wow, such achievement!!!
It's going to btfo xurg by 2045
I will switch to wayland once it has all the features i expect from a modern display manager and is stable.
Currently, neither of those two things is true.
>forced to have 800000000ms input lag because gnome trannies have a schizo about screen tearing
Kek
>use ancient gnome x11
>switch to gnome wayland that is rewritten by wayland people
oh jeez, i wonder why it feels smoother. Now run openbox/xfce/dwm without a compositor and feel the smoothness, especially when resizing applications such as thunar
Wayland will never be as fast as any DE running on xorg without compositing.
That's simply impossible by the nature of what compositors do.
And wayland without compositing is unsupported by design.
So what you're saying there is no reason to not use XFCE with the compositor turned off?
wayland will never run as fast as something equivalent to wayland (but without the composition). xorg is already slow as balls, due to how huge and convoluted the codebase / protocol is. so wayland is going to be faster than X even though wayland does compositing.
> xorg is already slow as balls
Benchmarks still say uncomposited X11 is the leader in all metrics.
Besides that DRI3 uses the exact same buffer swap mechanism as Wayland.
Wayland has zero technical merits and the API ecosystem is already much more bloated than X11 ever was.
i wonder how much those benchmarks are skewed by the fact that kwin and mutter run 2 different rendering pipelines in parallel. once the xorg junk gets stripped out from kwin and mutter that will make it possible for them to do a lot of optimizations that they can't do right now.
You obviously don't even use wayland.
Why shill for it then?
What is your endgame here?
Why do you think does kwin ship with two seperate executables, one for wayland and one for x11, and only runs kwin_wayland when run with wayland?
Why isn't kwin_x11 running simultaniously?
Nice try, xorg can run on ancient hardware perfectly fine.
Meanwhile wayland has a huge and convoluted protocol with 6 million input_methods.
Wayland can only be faster than xorg when you compare it to a setup where you throw a compositor on top of it.
You wouldn't have post lies to shill for wayland, if wayland would be stable and finished. It might be better to spend your effort on improving it, rather than advertising it.
I'm using KDE
The irony is that a sizable percentage of your applications are probably running under XWayland.
BLOATLAND
Because where else would you lie? At your dentist in real life?
>"What's your name, anon?"
>"My name is redditor"
When I used to run X11 freezes were way more common. I might leave my PC overnight and there was a 25% chance I'd come back to a locked up and irrecoverable desktop (KDE). I switched to Wayland and this is VERY rare now, like 5% of the time. Probably a driver issue with AMD. Also, fps is way more consistent for me in video games, and doesn't permanently dip if I minimize out of the game once.
Wayland actually has higher latency than X. It's irredeemable garbage. Nice shill attempt tho.
The worse flaw of Wayland is implicit sync.
High GPU load can make your desktop stutter or even freeze.
(X11 has implicit sync as well but at least there the mouse uses an additional hardware layer and mouse events like clicking the close button on the window decoration crated by your window manager as a separate running process still get through.)
Would any of you happen to know a way to fix the mouse issue that occurs in War Thunder specifically when running wayland? The mouse will randomly spaz out which is a bit of a problem in a multiplayer game like this. This problem doesn't exist with x11.
Are you using gamescope?
Steam
not him, but i tried gamescope with gtaiv recently, just to try it, and while the mouse seemed fine, the keyboard input wasn't
it was... hard to describe, sometimes keys would just stick, like i'd tap left/right while driving and i would sometimes spin out as if i held it longer than i did, made it unplayable
You should report it
>no, your xrandr and setxkbmap scripts won't work on wayland
>what do you mean replacement? there are no replacement utilities. no more universal scripts. we've fragmented the linux ecosystem and every desktop environment now has its own silo
>many can't live-change the settings they could under X. you need to restart
>well ackshually this is an improvement and you should be happy. X is muh legacy code and wayland is le future. updoot now
Good going, morons.
i tried wayland proper for the first time the other day, trying out labwc and a couple of panels
they were a bit unfinished, like the decoration themes weren't complete, the bar i mainly tried (sfwbar) felt like a proof of concept (half the items were unclickable), there were a few wm bugs like the alt+tab menu being nearly unreadable due to white-on-white, and a weird thing where if i take mpv out of fullscreen, the window isn't resized properly, the video stays big but the decorations didn't, until i resize the window again
mouse was sluggish compared to X, felt more like a windows mouse, though yea, resizing windows did have no artifacts, something i have read was promised by wayland
all in all i see potential, but it still feels like early days, didn't go any further than that
oh yea, also couldn't drag links from my browser into mpv, just did nothing
>felt more like a windows mouse
actually i take that back, i don't think the windows mouse is that slow
felt like it wasn't using the hardware cursor
i'd look into it further but i don't really have a pressing need for gamescope atm, just thought i'd bring it up incase it's something someone knows about or i missed something
ps. i tried using the input grab option, didn't make a difference. also to be clear i was running it nested in X
Wayland doesn't use hardware cursors.
huh? how can anyone call wayland ready when it doesn't have something as basic as a hardware cursor?
It never will because it's designed to be "pixel-perfect." Whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean.
By design it can't do fractional scaling, run programs as different users, it doesn't handle font or widget rendering, etc. There's a lot of over-engineered extensions and mediocre hacks to sort of maybe make those features work under Wayland, but only on specific usecases.
Yes, those are basic features present even in Windows XP and Android. Yes, that's how every single display protocol works. You see Wayland devs are special 9001 IQ gods who came down from the heavens engulfed in a ball of light and gave us the perfect display server and we should be grateful for it.
Wayland's design is also the reason it doesn't run on Nvidia hardware. Nvidia is supposed to change the way their GPUs and drivers work because Wayland devs know better.
>It never will because it's designed to be "pixel-perfect." Whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean.
i've heard the every frame is perfect mantra
i mean sure, a software cursor is the only way to guarantee something like a button lighting up only exactly when the cursor is over it, like not lighting up a frame later, or dimming a frame after the cursor has moved off of it
... but does anyone care? especially when you have to made the cursor laggy all the time in order to get that minuscule thing nobody even notices? pretty sure people already accept that the cursor is an object that exists "over" the rest of the graphics, rather than being part of it, like you never ever see things move out of the way of the cursor, for example
>still no Nvidia settings equivalent
For what reason?
The funny thing is, if someone pitched the Wayland architecture to Google, MS, or Apple, they’d be laughed out of the room. The design is completely backwards and broken, worse than X11 by orders of magnitude, and it is only being pushed by bullies that want to force their shit on everyone else in the hopes it will improve the software. It won’t improve with more users, go back to the drawing board. I don’t care if it’s been in development for 15 years or 1500 years, it’s a bad design
> go back to the drawing board.
Indeed. Wayland is fundamentally flawed because it makes access to graphics hardware unnecessarily opaque.
I'm working on a far superior display protocol right now:
1. Allow every client access to the front buffer
2. Allow them to draw whatever they want, wherever they want, whenever they want
3. Use Z-Buffering to avoid overdrawing of windows from multiple processes
4. Use commutative blending operations (e.g. multiplication and inverse multiplication) for transparency effects
5. Provide sync interrupt for clients that really need to be tear free (rather rare)
The result is a low overhead, low latency ultra high performance display "protocol" (more like passing of a memory address than a protocol).
do you have a link to your source code? I'd love to have a peak at it.
It's essentially a glorified KMS-Cube fork with a mechanism to share a file descriptor via a unix domain socket.
Clients have to do everything themselves for now (such as choose a Z-Buffer plane).
Nothing worth posting really.
not him but that's basically all i want, a standard method for gui programs to whatever they want, like X just without the 40 year old fluff and needless chatter of something that was never even designed for local use
>games just werk
elaborate? how is gaming related to wayland? isn't it a wine problem?
Is there something like this for wayland?
That's a security risk normal people don't use macro chuds. Just shut the fuck up and do everything inside a browser like a not all person. No we don't support Zoom, that's also a security risk.
No. Also there is no standardized wayland protocol to retrieve the focus window. So if you want to implement similar functionality, it would need compositor specific code.
What were you running before? GNOME 3?
>use Nvidia
>switch to wayland
>doesn't work
Useless alpha software.
Now use an nvidia gpu and it will be the contrary to what you've said.
games don't work and crashes in 30 min
Linux isn't dying, it's being killed. And the people killing it are Wayland devs.
s/wayland devs/redhat employees
sorry dude, your post was repeated verbatim along with a picture of a shirtless fat man, that means what you said was wrong, better luck next time