Nobody asked me whether I wanted to be born but it's expected of me to live out of obligation. Why? What's wrong in suicide?
Nobody asked me whether I wanted to be born but it's expected of me to live out of obligation. Why?
Nobody asked me whether I wanted to be born but it's expected of me to live out of obligation. Why? What's wrong in suicide?
All living beings have one thing in common and that is that they're preprogrammed with the objective of propagating their species.
Your physiology and your psychological mechanisms are all based on that one thing.
To survive and procreate.
Voluntary death goes against that entirely.
So for most people it is inconceivable that someone with a healthy body would have a justifiable reason to want to die.
And in most cases of psychological illness, suicidal ideation is a result of being too overwhelmed with certain emotions to have a realistic grasp/overview of the situation.
Most suicidal people have the potential to fix whatever is causing their longing for an escape, they just can't see it.
I'm of the opinion that if you have a physical or psychological ailment that makes you want to stop living, you should first do everything in your power to overcome that ailment.
Only then can your decision to die be justified.
The thing is that a lot of people who consider suicide haven't tried everything in their power, not even most things in their power. They just assume that whatever they will try will fail and are ready to give up before even trying.
That's why suicide (in most cases) is looked at as "wrong".
>they're preprogrammed with the objective of propagating their species
I wouldn't go that far. It's just that things that multiply still exist, and that's because they have the ability to multiply. It doesen't really imply any intent, it's just the logical outcome
Beings that do not have that objective do not continue to exist.
If there were no mechanism that would "motivate" them to multiply then they die out.
Thus all living beings have that objective.
>who's to say I'm wrong about its value
The mechanisms that make people want to survive are the same mechanisms that make people feel happy, loved, valued, proud, grateful and all other positive emotions.
Positive emotions are a means of motivating you to do things that help you reach the goals of survival and procreation.
So either you're a one in a trillion defective/anomalous human. Or: you also have the potential to be happy and grateful for your life.
Meteors split into trillions of tiny pieces all the time, and the ones without that course don't. Do meteors have a purpose and is that to explode into even more tiny meteors?
Does a piece of silicon have a purpose? They are keeping people from dying 24/7 and help us talk to each other wirelessly all the time, but I don't think lightning sand has any motive other than it being built in such a way that it just happens to keep doing it ad infinitum.
???
Things splitting into smaller pieces and things literally copying themselves and multiplying are not the same mechanisms at all.
I also said LIVING beings.
Meteors aren't living beings nor are pieces of silicone.
I don't mean to insult you anon, but maybe work on your reading comprehension?
>Things splitting into smaller pieces and things literally copying themselves and multiplying are not the same mechanisms at all.
Of course they are, there's no difference between live and dead, that's entirely our abstract label for observed behavior.
Also
>silicon is rock
>silicone is what you make fleshlights out of
>I don't mean to insult you anon, but-
Isn't this the same as insulting someone with whatever comes after "but"?
For example:
>I'm not going to say you're a massive homosexual
But am I still saying that?
>there's no difference between live and death
Anon, please you're embarrassing yourself.
Living things have cells, non living things do not. You learn this in freshman year of biology.
>isn't this the same as insulting
It's similar but there's a difference imo.
Insulting is something purely done to put someone down.
In your case I am genuinely doubting your reading comprehension and am pointing that out, which may feel hurtful but I am trying to make an observation.
If I say "living beings" and you start talking about meteorites then clearly you have misunderstood.
Or your personal definitions vary wildly from the generally accepted ones in which case it would almost be impossible to communicate on the same level, which would make continuing this discussion pointless.
Insulting has many forms and purposes, like yours; it's called smarm, very common in ycombinator circles. You're not even trying to understand my point, and derailing the thread for some meta conversation this is not worth any of our time
>You're not even trying to understand my point
Forget understanding your point, I do not even understand your terms.
You're calling meteorites living things which is objectively false. You're gonna have to argue your way out of that one first.
>You're [...] derailing
Nigga you're the one who firstly went ahead and nitpicked something which was only tangentially related to the greater topic at hand
After which YOU came with an even more wildly unrelated argument where you equated living and non living things.
And NOW you're going even more off topic by completely ignoring my arguments about the distinction of having cells and not having cells and instead trying to play some blame game
I really hope you're trolling because if you're not, you really lack self insight
It's relevant though, just as you're trying to imply OP has a set purpose, I'm arguing against it, and what better than making comparisons?
Nothing has any inherent purpose, so OP shouldn't feel bound by them, nobody should be there to tell them they should work for their duty as living cells, not for sky daddy somewhere nor some moral imperative. It's all gotta come from the inside, atleast in my opinion.
Your comparisons are objectively wrong and rather than try to argue why they're not you avoid the argument by pointing fingers.
You are unable to defend, or elaborate on your arguments.
You think that simply making a statement should be enough to convince someone of your pov. It is not.
Now you are going full circle again by making a superficial statement which you have failed to back up in the past. "Nothing has any inherent purpose".
I've already given my arguments for why there is a purpose that is universally applicable to all living things and you have failed to argue against it.
This is useless. You do not know how to argue.
I am done talking to you.
It seems you have a lot to prove, but the comments themselves should already be enough for anons to make a judgement, there's no use yelling otherwise. I'm not sure there is a way to avoid me, seeing as we're on the same board with no names
Not him but you it sounds like you just can't comprehend a different opinion
Like man why should I give a shit about my "biological purpose" at all? Who says I should care?
A "different opinion" is not the same as "objectively flawed arguments".
If I tell you that a duck is a feline are you gonna go "welp, that's just a different opinion" or are you going to tell me that I'm retarded and wrong?
Why should you care? Because the only reason you are able to have feelings of caring is because you've developed mechanisms that stem from your biological purpose.
It doesn't mean that you should strive to have kids.
What it does mean is that you are capable of feeling good about your life for the simple fact that you are human.
OP is arguing that he feels bad and that's why he shouldn't even try.
I'm arguing that 99.9% of humans work the same way because we all have the same inherent drive for survival and we all have the emotional mechanisms that have evolved around that drive.
Those emotional mechanisms are what cause you to feel happy/unhappy.
Which means that you have the potential to alter your circumstances to alter your general emotional state.
If you are suffering you can choose to alleviate that suffering by opting out of life or by changing your circumstances.
And opting out of life is an illogical choice given that you have the basically guaranteed potential of becoming happy.
ok? It's not like I owe anything to the ethereal concept of biology
>It doesn't mean that you should strive to have kids.
>What it does mean is that you are capable of feeling good about your life for the simple fact that you are human.
>I'm arguing that 99.9% of humans work the same way because we all have the same inherent drive for survival and we all have the emotional mechanisms that have evolved around that drive.
wrong x3
hey you might've missed it but some of those mechanisms aren't working correctly
I do appreciate that you're trying to argue the depression, that's very altruistic of you, genuinely. But you can't argue someone out of feeling a certain way (especially when you're this wrong lmao)
>And opting out of life is an illogical choice given that you have the basically guaranteed potential of becoming happy.
That's very fucking optimistic my guy. You almost had it, learnt helplessness and not really wanting to be happy anymore are issues that you can cure, typically by nagging people into it (at least for the former, still dealing with the latter myself)
The mechanisms aren't working incorrectly.
It's just that modern circumstances sometimes cause certain responses from those mechanisms which aren't beneficial to the individual.
The mechanisms haven't adapted to the modern environment, but they're functioning the exact same way they always have.
Which is why I'm saying that it's possible to alter your circumstances/environment which would make the mechanisms put out different results.
Results which would be beneficial to the individual.
>you can't argue someone out of feeling a certain way
No, but you can convince them that there is hope and potential and that it's worth working towards change instead of acting defeated and being convinced that there is no way you'll ever be happy. Which is what I'm trying to do here by attempting to prove that everyone has the potential to be happy due to the fact that we are all human.
>You almost had it
Having the potential and reaching that potential are two different things.
I'm arguing that everyone has the potential (except people with, like, weird physiological/psychological mutations) and that to reach that potential you have to put in the work
>haven't tried everything
This assumes that you have to try to fix the problem first. That life is so valuable that it can't be discarded casually. If I'm using a plastic fork and it breaks, yeah I could probably tape it back together with enough effort, but it's easier just toss it out. If I feel that way about my own life, who's to say I'm wrong about its value? God? My parents? If so, they've never demonstrated it to me. I don't see why I'm obligated to try to fix every broken thing.
I don't think you have to exist for anyone else, it's only strange that you wouldn't want to live for yourself and do things that make you happy. It can be from an actual fault, which could be fixed
>it's only strange that you wouldn't want to live for yourself and do things that make you happy
>positive emotions are a means of motivating you
Doesn't work if you hate yourself and want yourself to suffer and be punished. In my case, I'm the child of a rapist. I'm inherently connected to his DNA and I don't want myself to exist. I genuinely don't value my life, I genuinely don't want to "multiply" this rotten bloodline. So unless I'm having an amazing time, I'm not going to put in the effort to fix myself, I'm going to try to eliminate myself as quickly as possible. To be clear, I'm not at that point yet, but I go back and forth on it and always keep a plan ready, and I think that's a good thing. I hope I live a short life.
You have to put in the effort to fix yourself and engage with life, then you’re going to have an amazing time. You have to put logs on the fireplace before you get a roaring fire, not the other way around. You’re hostile towards yourself and towards reality and so you get what you give. Simple as.
You’re not looking for advice. You just want your negative feelings and pessimistic outlook vindicated. You don’t want to be better. You just want to suffer. You don’t want to be told that this is a rectifiable problem you can be your best self and generative human being.
>You just want to suffer
Factual and correct, good reading comprehension.
Also factual and correct, thank you. Makes me want to suffer slightly less. I don't know...things do generally seem better when I focus on the ability to be my own person. I just hope I'm not fooling myself into thinking I can be a decent person while in reality I'm a monster. It's a balance between constantly checking my behavior and punishing any bad that I see, versus not slipping into total self hate.
I’m not going to tell you that the world isn’t sometimes a cold dark and chaotic place. Life can be like treading across a dark icy frozen wasteland and you have absolutely nothing to keep you warm except a tiny flickering flame that could go out at any second. Other people are busy with their own frozen suffering and meager flame too. And somehow you’re supposed to take that flame and build a shelter for yourself and others. I know it seems impossible and stupid to even consider going on. But if you have the opportunity to kindle a flame out of the darkness and survive and thrive and help other people do so, and choose not to, you are of course free to do so but it will just be another meaningless gesture in a long history of meaningless gestures. Choosing to bring light out of darkness is what transmutes a meaningless existence into a meaningful one.
Thank you anon. I will try to help someone today.
You save yourself by saving others. But I think right now you’re the one who is in most need of saving. I don’t know if you can help yourself, maybe you’ll find inner strength and a path where you didn’t see before. Maybe you’ll find a mentor in a book or in meatspace. Pain is mandatory but suffering is optional. Pain and suffering ceases to be pain and suffering when you do it for a valuable cause. I found my way, maybe you’ll find yours. But even if we don’t that’s okay too. You tried and that’s more than most people can say.
Their genetics are unlikely to be the sole cause of their shit behavior, and you're only half a copy of them. Your dad is also ~70% a banana by body volume, but I don't think we should throw them away by association.
It does explain a bit about your situation though, which is very rough. I still think you can rise up from it, it's not written anywhere that you _should_ suffer.
Every time someone mentions muh genetics I like to ask if they can name a single human gene or have ever sequenced a genome in their lives or know how genes are expressed. The answer is always no
Do you think their DNA is what cause them to rape someone, then? I don't, nor do I think association is the cause of most things
?????
Yes it does work when you hate yourself.
You still have the potential to become a fulfilled person. That doesn't change with whether you hate yourself or not.
And what you're saying is very backwards.
You're saying "unless I'm having a good time, I'm not going to fix myself".
If you're already having a good time then there is nothing to fix.
The struggle starts at the bottom, not the top.
I'm pretty sure OP is taking a piss in this thread. Or attempting to validate his inner feelings. Basically the same thing in this case.
Even if baiting, dude's got issues and needs a therapist.
I'm not OP by the way, just found a thread I relate to. But I will admit I need a therapist.
Life is as valuable as what you do with it. Even a broken plastic fork can be invaluable in the right situation. But the fact you associate a human life with a plastic fork denotes mental illness not logical objectivity. If you have a very big brain Reddit 105 IQ and all you think about is utility and the material composition of stuff, then yeah you’re going to be miserable and suicidal no matter what you do.
The great thing about being alive is that you can do absolutely anything you want, including flat out saying no to it and rejecting it. Answered your question perfectly as to why the stigma around suicide exists, and then you pivoted into what is the meaning of life. Meaning, like life, is derived from doing whatever you think is important. You get to choose, if you think the most important thing is to kill yourself then go do that.
It's generally thought that living is pretty cool and fun, so what's making it miserable for you? Maybe fixing whatever's wrong would yield better results than nothing
Living is only cool and fun if you have lots of money, if you don't have lots of money then it's a daily struggle that only gets worse. Do with that information what you will.
Sure, it may be hypocritical of me since I live in a country with UBI so even the poor are in the world's top 10%. Then again tibetan monks live with nothing but the rags on them and claim that they've achieved the ultimate happiness, so maybe it's partly perspective.
They also have no need for money, they're not going to get evicted from the temple if they don't have any money, they're not going to starve to death if they have no money, they don't have to pay bills, they don't have to pay a mortgage. They have no need for money hence the reason they don't stress without it, see where I'm coming from?
>they're not going to starve to death
Uhh, anon...
You're right on point; not having any valuables means you don't have to pay for their upkeep either. Being content with what you have, be that only the rags you carry or your own house, is what happiness whether you'll find happiness or not. Buying into the western consumerist ideology hasn't made anyone happy (that i know of), merely motivated to get more.
Or maybe I'm the odd one. I've just not gained any substantial happiness since being able to pay bills and eat, even though my pay has risen quite a lot. I do agree not being able to afford food sucks a ton, but that can usually be fixed fairly fast, depending a bit where you live.
>I've just not gained any substantial happiness since being able to pay bills and eat
It may not be substantial but you've gained some happiness, right? Also, I guarantee you're not stressing over money all the time which allows you to not be depressed.
Sure, first happiness jumped up fairly quickly, not having to think about your next meal is superb in terms of mental health. Even after this point there are temporary jumps in happiness by being able to do something or go somewhere, but it's not raised the bar anywhere, it all seems to stabilize on a set point of contentment.
Fucking lol
We are literally cattle farmed for tax revenue. Squeezed to death by greedy bastards
You have constantly been struggling for survival ever since you were in the womb. Don't pretend you haven't. Oh, what's that, you identify yourself with your higher brain functions only? That's cute, you still have lots to learn.
Your life doesn’t belong to you, it belongs to God. You are not free to throw it away.
Your life is yours
I ain't stopping you, but unless you're invalid in every possible way both mentally and physically (which is unlikely considering you have HANDS to type words and LITERACY to write and read words), suicide seems less a justified action and more an escape from petty circumstance.
>Nobody asked me whether I wanted to be born but it's expected of me to live out of obligation
You’re free to check out any time you want. Lots of tall buildings around.
>What's wrong in suicide?
Life is a considered a gift. You consider life a gift and treat it as such, and not an obligation, and generally speaking you’ll be much more happier. If you wake up every day and practice gratitude you won’t want to blow your head off. That gratitude proceeds to happiness and a good time.
dude, nobody here will care if you kill yourself, if you wanted to do it, you would have done it already. you are just an edgy sperg desperate for attention and that shit is cringe af, even doctors will treat u bad cause everyone knows ur full of shit
Baby's first philosophy lesson
Mom will be sad. If someone's considering suicide but decides against it that's almost always why. You are obligated via the bond forced on you.
Yes it's very unfair.
Also killing yourself hurts, like a lot a lot. Life hurts too, but most people don't want to hurt, they indeed want the hurting to stop, and suicide is just one option that may or may not work for that.
You can also easily botch your attempt in a myriad of ways. Lots of people missing their frontal lobes sitting in some institution for the rest of their lives. A lot of paralyzed people unable to do anything anymore
>Also killing yourself hurts
Only sometimes, most methods take seconds
>Easily botched
Only if it's a cry for help, People who are serious about it won't fuck it up.
I can see what you're trying to do. Stop intimidating depressed people into staying alive you big goddamn hero.
You underestimate how dumb people are. True, there are very painless, even seamless ways to die, afterall that's how a lot of accidents happen when trying to heat your homes with wood. That doesen't mean people are good at building devices that certainly and painlessly kill themselves, and rightfully doubt their ability to not horribly-maim-but-not-kill themselves. This is why the suicide pod idea is floating around in some western countries as a professional KYS solution
bro were you even depressed? Your thought process is way different than mine. Like yeah messing up is scary but you just tilt the gun slightly and you're fine. Double check and you're fine. If you're hysteric about it you don't care.
People are nervous because we're literally hardwired to not kill ourselves because that's bad for our health, Not because we're just that incompetent
Maybe that's just me, but somehow even if the chance is low but repercussions massive, it sounds frightening. Kinda like plane crashes; they're really, really rare, but people are somehow still more afraid of planes than cars, even though a ton of people die that way
>What's wrong in suicide?
Loser's certificate.
How old are you...
It seems your parents failed big time.
Just FYI. I'm OP and I just came home after a little walk. Idk if someone else is pretending to be me but I suppose everyone has their problems.
>It seems your parents failed big time
They did.
>Mom will be sad
Will she though? My mom is a literal prosititue. She is half the reason I'm asking this question today.
Sure.
>Life is a considered a gift
If you are lucky and/or ignorant, sure.
(You)