Nihilism is absolutely, totally, irredeemably inescapable once it has been conceived of. At least within the bounds of our potentially limited human capacities of thought. There is, conceivably, a higher dimension of idealism that somehow transcends nihilism, but it is not actually "conceivable" within the human mind.
Any Truth can be annulled as ultimately arbitrary, any experience can be reduced to arbitrary inputs and outputs, all concepts are reducible to constructs. Even if the Christian God were to exist in the most literalistic interpretation, He would simply represent an arbitrary end-point which the human logical consciousness cannot accept within its interior laws as a cause without a cause that simply IS due to the unknowable-ness of "purpose" or "meaning".
It is impossible to conceive of a genuine case of there being a point to any phenomenon or noumenon outside of the noumenon as a noumenon in and of itself which still remains unsatisfying as it relies on a totalistic suspension of reason. This action of suspension is not actually possible without self-deceit, or, at least deceit-of-the-thinking-self.
I've basically repeated the same idea in 3 different ways to try and make it clear what exactly it is that I mean to say, but I recognise that it is not a simple concept to convey with the nuance intended (as opposed to a basic "all things are reducible to the absurd acts of chemical" version of what I am trying to get across) and as such I may not have done a great job.
Regardless, I hope a litizen understands what I mean and can help me destroy the trap of nihilism without the solution necessitating a leap of faith and/or a suspension of consciousness as a reasoning mechanism.
As I post this I am sure that I am right, at least as far as the human potentially infinitely incomplete reasoning mind is concerned, but I am seeking a solution within the confines of this mind or to transcend this mind (truly transcend, without ignoring, but perhaps by destroying?), so I am here to listen and learn.
> without the solution necessitating a leap of faith and/or a suspension of consciousness as a reasoning mechanism
anon, please, don't waste any more years with this mindset. there is no escape except grabbing onto one of the infinitely many hands of faith available to you. just grab on and don't let go.
> b-b-but reason!
the enlightenment brought untold riches to civilization, but it left us with a childish attachment to the idea that reason could solve every question we could ask. how many more years of this bullshit, of your own suffering, do you need to witness before you accept that was a scam all along?
>anon, please, don't waste any more years with this mindset. there is no escape except grabbing onto one of the infinitely many hands of faith available to you. just grab on and don't let go.
Like I mentioned in the op, this simply doesn't work because you will nevertheless always be at least subtly aware of the fact that you are deceiving your consciousnesses perceived "true self" and lobotomizing certain faculties. This is why I essentially posited that it is "impossible" to have a genuine leap of faith as everything that our mind is capable of perceiving is ultimately lacking in a transcendental essence devoid of a "why?"
It is not so much a mindset, but rather the inevitable conclusion of thinking with a (once again, potentially extremely limited) human brain.
I have. The cosmos envisioned is surely interesting and "feels" well attuned, but how does it at all debunk its own ultimate meaninglessness in terms of my initial enquiry?
Not exactly, rather, I have "nothing" to escape
> this simply doesn't work
> it is "impossible" to have a genuine leap of faith
oh, i guess i and countless humans throughout history are just completely delusional for having made genuine leaps of faith.
> yes, you are all delusional
you are not arguing in good faith, and deep down, you know this. you put "impossible" in quotations so that you can continue your own cognitive dissonance by playing word games when you get refuted. i'll leave this thread with a quote, hopefully it helps you someday:
"No matter how ruined man and his world may seem to be, and no matter how terrible man’s despair may become, as long as he continues to be a man his very humanity continues to tell him that life has a meaning."
Why are you so confrontational? Your pre-emptive guesses as to what I'd say are completely wrong first of all, but that's neither here nor there so I won't dwell on it.
Second, I'm not trying to argue with anyone but rather to transcend the inevitable problem which I've outlined. In my reply I merely pointed out how your suggestions were already tackled in my op and tried to provide some clarification since you didn't actually refute anything that I have said or provide a feasible alternative.
Thirdly, every human being ever is deluded to some extent. I would say that it is definitely conceivably probably possible that some people, now, or in history, have managed to GENUINELY transcend my problem, but certainly most people who'd claim that I'm wrong have either never conceived it, never thought about it, and/or have deluded themselves. Also, saying that I'm playing word games is quite funny since that's just another way of conceptualising the problem with consciousnesses logical conclusion to this problem wherein the winning move within the word game is always to question the answer further thus making the answer "impossible" like I said. If you're not understanding by now what I mean, I'm either not explaining myself well, or you're too prejudiced to understand it (which might be good for you in many ways) or just haven't read what I'm saying properly.
I am not concerned with whether you're a Buddhist or a Christian to any degree and I'm confused as to why you'd mention that.
>"No matter how ruined man and his world may seem to be, and no matter how terrible man’s despair may become, as long as he continues to be a man his very humanity continues to tell him that life has a meaning."
What does this have to do with anything I've said?
>countless humans throughout history are just completely delusional for having made genuine leaps of faith
Yes, tho I doubt many of them thought very deeply
You can’t under the truth anon
Reason deconstructs faith.
Read Ashtavakra Gita
Then you have nothing to escape
>says the guy who clearly exists
Subject is undeniable and if this obvious Truth doesn't 'convince you' that's a you problem
That's kind of a separate but similar issue. I certainly experience myself as existing, sure, I think you might have misread my post.
Also, even though I don't necessarily agree or disagree with your position, saying that something is "a you problem" isn't exactly making a case for anything lol
>Nihilism is absolutely, totally, irredeemably inescapable once it has been conceived of
probably the most brutal statement i’ve read in quite some time
honestly, suicide is so tempting just to see if it was all worth it
the ending of existence is so tempting, but i fear that we may continue on
that’s why, in a sense, i’m thankful i discovered nihilism
it is definitely my cope
Who is that woman? I've never seen her in my life. Anyone know her name? Is she an author or something?
Author and pornstar Sasha Grey. I hate that I know that
She's one of the greatest, if not greatest, porn actresses of all time though.
>BTFOS every religion/philosopher/psychologist
God is real and we're on the cusp of the climax of global history. None of this is an accident. Nihilism is for hylics.
Empty post but I'd like to clarify once again that my post is not concerned with whether or not God, or something that we could define as "God" exists. Like I said in Op, even if God did exist, it doesn't seem possible for Him to justify Himself as anything more than arbitrary within the confines of reason as we know it.
>even if God did exist, it doesn't seem possible for Him to justify Himself as anything more than arbitrary within the confines of reason as we know it.
explain this reasoning
You're literally a chimp with a slightly evolved neocortext, give it a break and stop being a over-rational hylic.
This image is so embarrassing, I feel bad for the guy for saying it and for you for posting it.
I feel bad for you for making such a meaningless thread.
How can you possibly lack reading intelligence to the point where you'd think the person you just replied to is op?
Geez, I'm not sure how posters can get confused on an anonymous board with zero id's. We need top scientists to get on this (and for you to not be a homosexual).
yeah we get it you're an idiot
thats funny cos the guy saying it is 1000X smarter than you or anybody in your family line lmao. you're simply too stupid to comprehend basic philosophy. embarrassing. you're an ape so it makes sense though 🙂
but i can’t stop over-rationalizing everything
outside of heavy drug use, how do i just be the “bird”
you are the bird. what do animals do? they fuck, eat, breath, sleep, work, etc etc. do that. if you don't want to or don't feel like you can then do whatever you want/can do. you're gonna be dead in 100 years and a bunch of other losers will be arguing about this shit then.
I mean I already did, but the nuance is quite complicated to both explain and to understand so I'll try a simplified approach: I cannot conceive of a justification as to why anything would exist at all, including a God, and neither has anyone or anything I've read. Hence I'm stating that it seems impossible to justify as anything beyond an arbitrary thing that "just is" which is unsatisfactory because language and the mind allows us to always rebut with "why?".
That only serves as evidence of the existence of the concept of meaning within a seemingly arbitrary system of linguistic constructs.
> the world is devoid of meaning
> except language, which for some reason is the sole exception to the notion that the world is devoid of meaning
>That only serves as evidence of the existence of the concept of meaning within a seemingly arbitrary system of linguistic constructs.
No it doesn't, it shows by direct evidence that meaning actually exists.
It’s unsatisfactory because it’s unsatisfactory to you to be somehow less knowing than God, which makes no sense.
That is not a problem with intrinsic meaning or God, but a problem with you, or what Christians would call your own fallen nature. You hunger for attributes of God. That is not nihilism.
Just because you can not conceive of it does not make it inconceivable
2 more weeks right?
That fact that you understand what a word "means" is absolute evidence of the existence of meaning, therefore, the nihilist claim that the universe has no meaning in it is false.
> how do I overcome nihilism without these things that are the only things that can overcome nihilism
FYI Christian conception of the Trinity is how they overcome the problem in your second paragraph.
I think nihilism is a problem of particular time and place and is closely related to technology.
Blow it out of your ass.
> any experience can be reduced to arbitrary inputs and outputs, all concepts are reducible to constructs
Even if this is true it still exists. You go all gay Rick and Morty and say “love is just chemicals!” But it still effects you either way. Pain are just your nerves fairing up but if you get punched in the stomach you still got punched in the stomach and hurt lol. Everything still has a practical effect!
Your just describing infinite regress
>Nihilism is absolutely, totally, irredeemably inescapable once it has been conceived of
This state was delimited in original Buddhism. The desire to be extinguished of desire, effaced, totally annihilated for reprieve belies the truth of the matter: The Subject which is doing all of that.
Nihilism is scary because it is true freedom. If everything is a construct, if there is no end point to which the universe is leading, we are not bound to a specific fate.
Most people try to throw away this freedom as soon as they get it. The leap of faith is a great example. It is faith for the faithless. Believers in the middle ages or in the golden age of Islam believed in God because of course there was a God. Now that we are aware that it is conceivable for there to be no God, belief becomes conscious. An act.
This is not good or bad. That is still framing things in a language where God is a reality instead of a temptation. You want to destroy your nihilism. In your last paragraph you even ask for a solution. You call it a trap. This is the language of someone who takes a leap of faith. A desperate man at best and a coward at worst.
Instead, nihilism could be the closest thing to truth that the universe has. We are cursed to be free. You can run from freedom, or you can live in freedom. I can't help anymore than saying that.
Without God, this radical freedom means little more than you get to choose which vice you will succumb to.
>It's not possible to understand everything through human reason though nothing matters. Le post.
The Holy Bible NOW you reddit heathen worm
nihilism is so gay just have kids dude if an ape can figure it out why can't you
pretty much this. nihilism is for autistic people that can't behave normally in society and want to think they're cleverer than everyone else.
Read Wilson's The Outsider, and the follow-up volumes. It may help.
>Even if the Christian God were to exist in the most literalistic interpretation, He would simply represent an arbitrary end-point which the human logical consciousness cannot accept within its interior laws as a cause without a cause that simply IS due to the unknowable-ness of "purpose" or "meaning".
No, mystical ascent and union with the Good is thematized almost identically in every major religion with anything like mystical experience. And it is always experienced as such a profound negation of categorial, dualistic thinking that it is dangerous to even begin to try to explain it within categorial, dualistic thinking.
Read Merrell-Wolff's descriptions of his mystical experience, or literally any other writer, they all describe how once they've lost it, it's like trying to remember a dream. Whatever base existence is, it's so far beyond what we're currently thinking and doing that it is impossible to conceive from our vantage point, like trying to think in five dimensions. And real human history may only begin once we realize and attain this level of consciousness. We may not even be in our childhood but our infancy.
nihilsim isnt about things being arbitrary
its about so fucking what the shadow of death is stalking me
death is not arbitrary
Why does Nihilism matter?
It doesn't matter to me, I've accepted Nihilism since I was 14 years old and realised the Christians were right
>was 14 years old and realised the Christians were right
what about israelites and Muslims? cos they look a lot better off than Christians in the modern world.
so whats the problem? I think you should study more philosophy, get a gf, and touch some grass.
100% that will make you happier. I heard it said nihilism is a great place to begin, but an awful place to end. and that's very true. if you embrace nihilism then you'll live a nothing life.
so who's your favourite pornstar?
That is false. Nihilism only makes sense if you are a braindead materialist. Human experience is imbued with desires for and against things. God's desire for things is good. His desire against things is evil.
Humans all have varying degrees to which we desire the same things as God but ultimately our desires are based in small part on objective morality.
I have to say I'm a little disappointed. I don't think a single reply has actually understood the totality of what I'm trying to describe. Instead of tackling what I'm saying, many assumptions are being made about me, and those are being attacked.
I really don't know in how many more ways I can describe the same thing. I even specifically stated in the op that I am not espousing a Rick and morty materialism. I am not even a materialist because I am specifically rejecting the notion of there being anything "real" about matter, rather that our minds are just bound to it within the world of logic. I am specifically looking for a solution to the nihilist void because I am ultimately an idealist, but all forms of idealism from Kantian to Christian relies on some level of faith. That being said, I live quite religiously, I follow certain principles and observe certain rituals and value certain things because I conduct a high level faith in my day-to-day, because it is far more satisfying and enjoyable to do so and I would also agree that living completely materialistically is just retarded and boring
I am espousing an ultimate mystery of the unknown. I'm trying to say that it seems like absolutely nothing, not a single thing, is truly knowable and understandable for the human animal. Some here said that I'm playing word games and words are a spook. Yes, that is literally a large part of what I'm saying! Language only works within its own self contained system but there's no way of ever knowing the validity of concepts outside it within its rules. Language might even literally be the problem with the human mind! The fact that language allows us the capacity to ask "but why" to literally anything that we ever figure out could certainly be the very reason such a void is so logically inevitable, but even with this "understanding of the possibilities" it isn't actually possible for me to transcend language while still using language to think and to express myself
how old are you? often the solution comes through simply growing up.
I'm 27. Are you suggesting that once I turn a certain age, let's say 69, the points I made are suddenly invalid? What a ridiculously, and ironically, immature thing to suggest
27 is too told for hopeless nihilism. Life is about love, achieving goals, contibuting to society having fun when you can.
That’s what you’re wired to do, if you do that you will find life meaningful, if you don’t you suffer. If you suffer regardless you should see a doctor because something is wrong
Also have you considered having sex?
your lack of response tells me you're in your youth. don't worry anon, you'll grow out of it.
Maybe you're wrong. You've made mistakes about other things.
I have said multiple times that this is just a conclusion within human reason and I don't deny the possibility of a transcendental logic, merely that it doesn't seem justifiable within our boundaries of reason. I swear everybody here is literally illiterate.
I know you said that but have you ever considered that it's just a mistake. That you missed something?
>I don't deny the possibility of a transcendental logic, merely that it doesn't seem justifiable within our boundaries of reason.
Why are you so sure about that?
How am I sure you drooling idiot? I literally used the word "SEEM"! What do you fucking mean I'm sure? I'm not sure of shit. All I can say is that it SEEMS unjustifiable because I can't imagine it's potential justification within the confines of phenomena and neither have I ever seen anybody else imagine it, and neither has anyone in this thread.
Hahahah, its like you can't comprehend the possibility of being happy and fulfilled yet still aware of spooky philosophy. It's like they have to be mutually exclusive. I have had sex three times since I started this thread btw if it helps clarify my position at all for you?
Well see, I, op, am saying that even if backrubs were literally magic they would still be logically to the same limitations of infinite regression to the void within the rational mind. I am trying to find an end-point where spoopy logic can be replaced with a better consciousness that can operate in the realm where "magic" is actually magical again, but to achieve it through the method of rationality itself, since otherwise its just a spooky blind faith thing (which isn't necessarily WRONG, it just doesn't FEEL RIGHT within reason because it SEEMS unjustifiable)
Off yourself so we can take your stuff then
You’re an evolved chimp who doesn’t understand existence. You’re creating problems that don’t even exist. It’s not even that the questions have no answers, or that we can’t understand the answers, but the questions themselves are meaningless in the first place. Anytime you start asking yourself these big questions, ask yourself about the definitions of the words you’re using, what they actually mean. You should know that human language is a flawed creation of a limited intellect, that we are not suited to understand everything. You know that eating is good, working is good, having friends and family is good, so do these things. Stop fapping, stop watching porn, stop doing drugs, stop wasting time with social media etc. and everything will fall into place
nihilism is the last hurdle to the stages of self actualization and discovering the universal ethical principle.
nihilism is the fulcrum or transition from agent subjected to an "objective" moral and metaphysical environment.
to an agent of objectivity.
nihilism is wrapped up in identity.
all the great thinkers on nihilism state that it is ment to be transitory.
like the space of nothingness between the death of the universe and the boltzman brain.
or the forest fire the brings new life.
nihilism is the point where you have observed all the plotholes in life and decided, quite rashly, to toss the whole thing out.
but nihilism in its self refutation calls it to be transitory;we arent supposed to dwell in nihilism forever.
Camus/Sartre was right, confronted with nihilism you either change your state by killing yourself and labelling yourself victim of such a state.
"oh woe is me, nothing mattress"
or you will your own state into being and make it as objective as you want, becuase everything is bullshit anyways.
this why alot of nihilists use drugs to change their state, and alot of recovered nihilists get heavy into occult,semiotics,and love and light spirituality.
Even in the face of nihilism, the will still exists. even nihilism cannot refute the cogito.
its important what you do when confronted with nihilism, and its very easy for a disiimpowered,unskilled,jaded,and nieve will to get sucked into the nihilism mind prison.
nihilism is really just intellectualizing all your vicarious trauma and real trauma and depression, and teenage rebellion. for this is nihilisms purpose
to challenge the mind.
Meaning is a construct of the human mind and instinct of a healthy human brain. This is what you circus clowns get for hating science
correlation doesnt equal causation bro
Non-sequitur. Your brain is wired to experience all emotions and cognitive phenomena associated with meaning when you do the things that people typically associate with meaning.
Arguing between “ meaning is inherent to reality” and “meaning does not exist at all so you have to meme yourself into some philosophy” is a false dichotomy.
It is not inherent to reality besides our own brains. You can create meaning with your own thought processes, but a much stronger and automatic source of meaning are natural human experiences like good relationships and meeting goals.
meaning itself is a metaphysical non sequiter.
its theory of mind shit.
there is no way you can prove that meaning is external to the mind.
everything is an antenna. since base reality seems to be very dependant on frequency of vibrations.
does the ding an sich have meaning?
what if it isnt a dichotomy but a spectrum between two extremes?
>there is no way you can prove that meaning is external to the mind.
Yeah I’m actually saying it isn’t external. My relationships give my life meaning because I am wired to feel that way from relationships.
A back massage feels good because I am wired to feel good from touch among the other physical effects.
It feels like you guys are arguing between “backrubs feel good because a backrub is a magic spell” and “backrubs don’t feel good because there is no magic spell so they can’t possibly feel good”
It’s two primitive mindsets missing the point entirely, it’s unbelievable
sounds like projection if you ask me
You clearly don’t even know what that word means because I’m taking neither of those two perspectives.
or maybe you are trying to generalize society issues of philosophy through the lense of your own expierence, and that expierence being wrapped up in alot of shitposting.
You can’t even spell experience.
>cant argue sematics, have to nit pick syntax now
i really dont care
If nothing truly matters you might as well create your own meaning it’s not anymore arbitrary than bitching on an anime form and least you can find some enjoyment in life
If everything is meaningless why bother writing all you've written? Your search for meaning obviously means a lot to you. Nihilism is undeniable and disprovable and all that but the whole philosophy only succeeds in proving its own uselessness. It just sort of cancels itself out.
Nothing "matters" but that's just not really relevant is it? With no inherent meaning you're free to create your own meaning as you see fit. And no you can't know if anything you see or feel is real, your life and how you live it and everything you see and feel is only limited by your own creativity.
Their is an idealism that transcends nihilism and that's living by the ideals you yourself have created. No they don't matter and they don't mean anything but that doesn't matter anyway does it?
tldr: if you think about it it's not worth thinking about, just go live your life cause you can't really do much else
Life is Absurd
I went from nihilism to Christianity. I realized that there’s nothing wrong in the OT, God can do what he wants, and it is infinitely more logical than to be nihilist.