Imagine ripping someone from the comfort of nonexistence into this shithole.
None of us asked to be born, but we continue to repeat this suffering again and again.
Worst of all, you then have to wrestle with the fear of mortality and the instincts of self-survival if you ever want to check out.
Through the grace of God, I was born into this world so that I might be among the Elect and achieve perfection and eternal bliss in Paradise.
Cope harder pathetic homosexual.
>eternal bliss in Paradise.
>*some israeli fariy tale that I LARP as is my own, cause said israelites mindbroke me to the level I refuse the roots of my own ancestors
now bro, now
The roots of my own ancestors would be larping as some mud hut grugs in the woods who I feel no connection with. And I don't LARP as an ancient Hebrew. Although I suppose sacrificing random people in bogs would be very based and tradpilled.
If a religion is extinct and/or doesn't make universal claims, then it cannot be taken as a true religion.
If it doesn't make universal claims then I agree, but what's wrong with an extinct religion that does make universal claims? Manichaeism was based.
The deity they worship wouldn't have allowed it if he/she/xe/it exists.
Or if the deity isn't omnipotent/almost omnipotent, then it's just completely impotent. I do actually find Manichaeism interesting myself, just purely from a historical view.
>some fairy tale for a desert tribe is totes real
>we can prove it because a bunch of people wrote it down
>all those other religions written down are totes false tho
>Muh heckin israeli fairy tales
shame
>I'm an atheist
>still 10x more based than
Imagine ripping someone from the comfort of nonexistence into this shithole.
None of us asked to be born, but we continue to repeat this suffering again and again.
Worst of all, you then have to wrestle with the fear of mortality and the instincts of self-survival if you ever want to check out.
I'm not religious, but I agree with your sentiment. OP is just a sadfuck unhappy with their life so they assume everyone else is miserable too. Life can suck sometimes but I'd rather be alive than dead.
Based except for the religion part. So actually, cringe.
You aren't predilect. Get over yourself.
>literally and imagine
You must be over 18 to post here
Based
>I never asked to be born
Well, you can always correct your parents' mistake.
I cannot self-terminate. We need euthanasia to be available to everybody.
Why not?
Why can't you answer this question op.
Why do we NEED euthanasia?
Why do you care? It’s not like you’ll be using the Euthanasia
This isn't a Socratic discussion. Why aren't you killing yourself?
>he can't answer a simple question without seethe or venom in his breath
How sad. You just seem like someone angry at the world cause life isn't fair.
So man up boy. Cause the world is mean and it will chew you up and spit you out.
Which it looks like it already did.
>I can't kill myself unless suicide becomes a product I can consoom
jej
You can kill yourself you are just a coward. Antinatalism is simply a death cult that are hypocrites. Because if life truly was the hell on Earth they claim it was they would kill themselves. Yet they don't. Curious no?
Notice how it’s always pro life Natalists who automatically jump to kill your self? How about I continue to live so I can watch your life crumble around you and at your lowest point I’ll walk up to you when you’re on your knees give you a light tap on your chin and say this
>stiff upper lip champ
Again. Implying life is hell on earth. It is an unhealthy projection y'know. So why can't you kill yourself? Afraid? Afraid of what? Life sucks right?
Like I said I hope you have a big beautiful family and you watch them grow and become so attached to them
And then your wife gets terminal cancer and your kids are all molested by that preacher you just love hearing speak on Sunday and when you are absolutely shattered I’ll walk right up to you and say this
>maybe if you don’t life you could always kill your self
>If my life is shit I hope YOUR LIFE IS SHIT TOO
not only are anti-natalists pathetic man-children they also have the mindset of children.
>bitter right winger tells suffering person to pull up bootstraps is appalled that suffering person hopes they feel the same level of suffering as them
The only time people like you care about issues is when it personally affects you
>care about issues is when it personally affects you
Yes. It is more healthy to worry about your own problems that affect you and the people you like compared to focusing on every problem ever that effects everybody. Please explain how focusing 24/7 on problems not even your own is a healthy way of living. I mean right now you should be crying and seething about starving kids around the world yes? How do you have time to type crying about all the worlds problems?
You:fuck em who gives a shit about x group
You when you get fucked over the same way:OH WHY WONT ANYONE CARE ABOUT ME IM BEING FUCKED OVER HERE HELP!!!
You when you get that help:like I said who gives a shit about x group fuck them
Rent free lmao. And we don't expect people to care for us if we can't take care of ourselves.
not him btw
>I’m all for muh survival of the fittest muh master race perfect genetics
>obese asshole who faps to hentai
I really wish we could go back to the those times you claim to live so much then we can see how much you live that life
It would be nice since pathetic bitches like you would immediately cease to exist. Instead life is so comfortable for you, you have free time to complain about other peoples suffering and claim life isn't worth living.
>not like me though
Lmao lol
>Life is so comfortable he still has time to complain about other people's suffering that doesn't even affect him.
To put it plainly yes. Someone who enjoys life and has a drive for life will last much longer than someone as impotent as you who has a distaste for life itself and everyone else.
>bro look at all these free time you got thank goodness it’s those little Chinese kids building your computer in the suicide factories and not you amirite god life is so great I chose to not be born in China at birth fucking love life
lol lmao lel
So are you born in China and work in a chinashop? You suffer because they suffer? OR again you just say "oh poor poor children what a terrible world we live in".
lol you are simply a pearl clutcher.
>bro you don’t understand how great life is I mean I could have been born in China working in nikes sweatshop but I wasn’t how great is life
So again. Why should I care about those kids? I will never meet them and their life has 0 impact on mine. Just because they are human they deserve my time of mind? Lol no. I care about the people in my life
>lol lmao fuck them-every right winger every
Yes lol lmao indeed
Use simple logic Reddit tranny. Explain how I could've been born as someone else. How could I have been born as Rameses II? Do you believe we exist as souls before we are conceived? I don't.
>he has ran out of counter arguments
So you gonna kill yourself now?
No idea who you’re talking to chief two different people
>UHM YOU HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THINGS OUTSIDE OF YOUR CONTROL BECAUSE UHH.... IF YOU DESTROY YOURSELF THAT'LL MAKE THINGS BETTER YOU HAVE TO BE MENTALLY ILL OKAY?
>>bro you don’t understand how great life is I mean I could have been born in China working in nikes sweatshop but I wasn’t how great is life
You couldn't have been born as anyone else. You're a fucking retard. You are born to your parents, you couldn't have been born to anyone else.
So you're a bleeding heart that feels emotional outrage everyime a black person is killed by a cop or are you using it as an excuse to justify your worldview and obnoxious behavior?
Yes there's suffering in the world. What's the point of being a little bitch about it? I'm sure if you kill yourself that'll alleviate the suffering of Chinese and African kids lmao dumbass
>muh master race perfect genetics
I don't think there's a master race with perfect genetics.
>obese asshole who faps to hentai
Projection
What times do I claim to live so much?
VGH
I find America during the 50's boring
because the media tells you it was "boring" and you're an NPC, the media tells you foreign cultures and new subcultures are vibrant and interesting, every culture in the world is wonderful, except western culture, which is "ew boring", and you just go along with it because you're a soulless NPC
I don't like 20th century history compared to the Middle Ages or Early Modern period. Western culture seems largely soulless by the 1950's.
> bluh bluh bluh
Name one non-boring event from 50s.
Most of what you know of 1950s America comes from advertisements, I guarantee it. Look up interviews of people during the time period on YouTube or something, and you'll see it's a lot more nuanced than that
>More projection
Lol I accept help from people who care about me since I have developed actual relationships since I realize life has value so I have no need to cry into the void like you claim and sadly will end up doing.
Sorry you are so insular you failed basic societal norms.
So again. Since life isn't living since it isn't perfect. Why not kill yourself? Why can't you give me an answer?
Least retarded atheist
>Boo hoo if life isn't perfect I don't want to live.
So there is an easy option. You do live in a country with guns yes?
Nice dubs, asshole. Yes, and I've held my .357 to my head like a million fucking times. I used to do it literally every night after work while drinking. I could never pull the trigger because I worried that I'd survive in some fucked up state and I eventually just couldn't even take the gesture seriously anymore and I don't do it, but I still want to die.
Seems like cope to me, just use a fucking shotgun if you want to be 1000% sure.
I don't have a shotgun but obviously I could get one in burgerland. That's not 1000% though.
>That's not 1000% though.
How can you possibly think there's even a slight chance that you'd "survive in some fucked up state" when your skull has been blown into bits?
That's just what kind of fuckup I am, bro.
No, you're just making up excuses to cope with the fact that you do not actually want to kill yourself.
No I really do but I'm a pussy. Do you tell somebody who's scared to talk to girls that he's coping and doesn't actually want a gf? Fear is powerful.
If there was a method that anyone could do and have a 100% guarantee to get a girlfriend there would be nothing to fear.
Why don't you show me how easy and 1000% sure it is?
Why should I? I prefer existence over non-existence.
>Why
Just to make a point.
A point that I do not need to make. Shotguns will completely demolish your brain as soon as you pull the trigger, just go to any gore thread here on LULZ and see for yourself, and all of our senses cannot function without the brain, i.e. it is an instant and guaranteed death.
You could have just absolutely fucking BTFO me in this argument in front of everybody, but you're not and it's kinda sad.
By killing myself? I'm not the anti-natalist here.
Just go to .gif dumbass. Plenty of rest threads there with people shooting themselves.
Biggest cope ever.
>maybe if I was in burger land
Then go find a fucking building then and jump or better yet. Just spend your savings and go to burgers and and buy a shotgun. Not like you'll be needing money.
I AM in burgerland
Do you think this is a rare caliber or something? If so, you're the nogunz newfag here, not me.
>i have a .357 magnum
Post guns
>anti natalist is a whiney suicidal emo homosexual who couldn't even kys
Lmao get a fucking grip homosexual. Most people are enjoying life, just because you were raped by your dad or beaten as a child doesn't make life worthless, just yours!
None of that applies to me but Jesus m8, what a thing to say to somebody.
>and I've held my .357 to my head like a million fucking times
i hope you pulled the trigger as many times, otherwise you're a larping homo
>stiff upper lip champ
Unironically yes. It is called being a fucking man you pussy limp wristed homosexual. God antinatalists are pathetic.
>Oh boo hoo I stubbed my toe I have suffering. Life isn't worth living.
Pathetic.
Yeah you’re definitely one of the ones I want to live to watch as your come to terms with your ultimate mortality and watch you try to fill the void with consumerist shit or some hollow notion that you will live vicariously through your son
>More projection
It is so funny how antinatalists always claims everyone's lives are just as shit as their own. So is that what happened to you? Mommy and Daddy spent too much time watching TV instead of giving you attention? Your claims are moot since they don't apply to me. Your claim of how life is full of suffering and that's it is retarded. So again. If you hate life why haven't you killed yourself? You dislike existence right? Why can't you end your existence?
This is so much projection. I’m loving my life. I just had newly wed sex on a beach. You’re the pathetic homosexual moping about how shitty life is. Why don’t you make it enjoyable, homosexual.
You think there’s a greeting card for
>sorry to hear your wife got cancer
Ah well I’m sure I’ll make due when the time comes
Show me a single atheist who is not mentally unhinged
You sound like you'd be a real charmer at parties if you got invited.
Have you never been to a fucking Hallmark store? There are hundreds of different "Get well soon cards" you fucking retard. What a retarded argument.
>hey sure your wife has terminal cancer but that’s life don’t like it? Kill yourself
That’s the average right winger on LULZs ideal card
So you agree that since someone simply stubs their toe life isn't worth living right? Since life isn't perfect it isn't worth living. So why don't you kill yourself?
Oh boo fucking hoo. Bad things happen, wow. Take the good with the bad and make life what you can. Don’t just sit in self-pity, homosexual.
More bad things need to happen to you once how quick your attitude changes but of course being the right winger you are that’s a bridge you won’t worry about until you cross it because that’s the kind of asshole you are
I hope you get everything you deserve
>More bad things need to happen to you once how quick your attitude changes but of course being the right winger you are that’s a bridge you won’t worry about until you cross it because that’s the kind of asshole you are
>I hope you get everything you deserve
Most mature and mentally stable leftist. Again, kill yourself. I'm sure that'll end all the suffering in the world.
Yeah I’m gonna wish for more awful things to happen
Your wishes mean nothing you miserable pathetic homosexual
I guess we’ll see won’t we
Sure. We will also see you kill yourself one day.
Explain why your wishes would make the slightest difference.
Notice though this entire thread all the antinatalists can do is lash out. Why can't you answer a simple question? Why don't you kill yourself if you dislike life? All you have been doing is seething impotently the entire thread. Almost instantly even.
Genuine question. Do you hope to be an activist? Do you want to make a change?
Is suffering only for humans that you care about? Do you care about animal suffering too?
What about plant suffering too? 🙁
I want to watch people like you who say life is a gift suffer whether that’s climate change or an asteroid I want to be their when the sheer Terror of reality hits you
Notice how you still lash out. How about a real answer little buddy? Make an attempt at the questions huh. You know how to do that right? Or more impotent seething at people with better lives
>well pal still thankful for that life now that it’s about to come violently crashing in a fiery maelstrom of destruction go on tell me how blessed you are to live when that planet killing rock makes contact with earth I need to hear it one more time
More impotent seething huh. Shame. Well I hope you enjoy your endless seething at life then. The only thing more hilarious is that you are giving yourself suffering. You must like it in fact since you are still here. Still greentexting. Angry at others. Sad really.
>>well pal still thankful for that life now that it’s about to come violently crashing in a fiery maelstrom of destruction go on tell me how blessed you are to live when that planet killing rock makes contact with earth I need to hear it one more time
How would that invalidate all of the pleasure you experienced before then? And all of the pleasure you will experience in the afterlife if you believe in that?
Do you have a job or a family? Answer this simple question for me.
Two questions sorry buddy that wasn’t the deal now if you’ll excuse me there’s a wing of terminally I’ll children who will never leave the hospital that I need to make sure understand what a gift this life is
>he is so filled with rage at people simply enjoying life he can't answer basic simple questions
Funnily enough their life is a gift and they use it more than you strange enough
The "sheer terror of reality" is that your life is so banal that you have to indulge in apocalyptic fantasies on LULZ.
I wonder what your final words will be
>you know even though we are about die horribly to [insert cataclysm] I just want to saw what a gift this life
Something like that I imagine
And then I’m gonna watch the people you love most in the world realize you’re full of shit right before their lights are snuffed out
Cope more you miserable pathetic tranny
Romans 1:28
And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
Jesus talk about a LARP. So dying invalidates your good moments? Lol k
>I want to watch people like you who say life is a gift suffer whether that’s climate change or an asteroid I want to be their when the sheer Terror of reality hits you
Is that God's judgement coming? Excellent, I can't wait to go to heaven.
Ah yes GOD
I frankly couldn't give less of a shit about your Reddit cartoon or your attempt to proselytize to me 😉
>Why can't you answer a simple question? Why don't you kill yourself if you dislike life?
This was already answered in the OP, idiot. Overriding the fear of death and your survival instincts doesn't come easily. That's the sick irony about existence. It takes a lot of coaxing to escape from it.
>Overriding the fear of death and your survival instincts doesn't come easily.
Almost as if everyone prefers existence over non-existence, which would mean that anti-natalism is just a pretentious delusion, but surely that cannot be the case.
It has nothing to do with preferring existence, it's to do with biological impulses hardwired into us as dumb animals.
>MUH IMPULSES
Cope. Japs have killed themselves by cutting their own fucking bellies open for thousands of years, and for the dumbest reasons, yet you can't kill yourself with an instant bullet despite finding life to be a living hell.
how did we evolve to know what a gun is and not to put it to our forehead and pull the trigger, at what point in our evolution did we evolve a fear of it like our fear of spiders
you are genuinely fucking retarded
People kill themselves all the time. Just find a tall building and jump. Take some sleeping pills or lie down on some train tracks. Join the military.
>my life is shit so your life must also be shit
One day child you will grow up. Not anytime soon it looks like. Or maybe not. Maybe you will just kill yourself.
>who cares about others lol lmao
Alright let’s how well that works out for you
>i should care about 100% of all humans ever.
Never said I don't care about people you illiterate fuckhead. I said I care about the people in MY life. Explain in very detailed words why caring about people thousands of miles away who I will never meet, should make me loose sleep
You are exactly the problem. You are a solipsistic little sack of shit. Thats what most of humanity is and thats why there is suffering because you feel like the existence of suffering isnt your problem until it personally affects you. You view life as your personal sandbox, not as the cosmic evil generator that it is.
>You are exactly the problem. You are a solipsistic little sack of shit. Thats what most of humanity is and thats why there is suffering because you feel like the existence of suffering isnt your problem until it personally affects you. You view life as your personal sandbox, not as the cosmic evil generator that it is.
Then... kill yourself? If life is so evil kill yourself.
That would be very solipsistic of me to make that decision, knowing that others live and suffer but not caring enough to do anything about it. Others must be saved and all of life can kool aid themselves together.
Let me give you a scenario
There is a button that ends all life. All plants animals humans cells. All life.
Would you press it?
>if I am going down I want everyone to go down with me
You sound like someone who will shoot up a school if they had the chance.
>Thats what most of humanity is and thats why there is suffering because you feel like the existence of suffering isnt your problem until it personally affects you.
So I should worry 24/7 about other people I don't even know? Like you?
>Refuses to address my point
Like I said illiterate fuckhead. Why should I care about people I will never meet or interact in my life in any way whatsoever?
Does a tree make a sound if it falls in the middle of the woods and nobody is around to hear/see/interact with it?
Nice cope
>Has an ideology that dictates existence is excessive suffering and never existing is preferable
>Gets mad when people tell him to stop existing if it is so unbearable
kek
I agree with anti-natalsim in one simple fact, OP should khs, because he is a massive homosexual
>comfort of nonexistence
doesn't exist
>fear of mortality
i thought nonexistence was comfortable?
There's no such thing as nonexistence
>blah blah blah
Kill yourself then lmao just stop existing like cmon lol
I ENJOY LIVING
Likewise.
>fear of mortality
"The suffering of human billions makes its entrance into him through the gateway of compassion, from all that happen arises a laughter to mock the demand for justice, his profoundest ordering principle. He sees himself emerge in his mother’s womb, he holds up his hand in the air and it has five branches; whence this devilish number five, and what has it to do with my soul? He is no longer obvious to himself – he touches his body in utter horror; this is you and so far do you extend and no farther. He carries a meal within him, yesterday it was a beast that could itself dash around, now I suck it up and make it part of me, and where do I begin and end? All things chain together in causes and effects, and everything he wants to grasp dissolves before the testing thought. Soon he sees mechanics even in the so-far whole and dear, in the smile of his beloved – there are other smiles as well, a torn boot with toes. Eventually, the features of things are features only of himself. Nothing exists without himself, every line points back at him, the world is but a ghostly echo of his voice – he leaps up loudly screaming and wants to disgorge himself onto the earth along with his impure meal, he feels the looming of madness and wants to find death before losing even such ability.
But as he stands before imminent death, he grasps its nature also, and the cosmic import of the step to come. His creative imagination constructs new, fearful prospects behind the curtain of death, and he sees that even there is no sanctuary found. And now he can discern the outline of his biologicocosmic terms: He is the universe’s helpless captive, kept to fall into nameless possibilities.
From this moment on, he is in a state of relentless panic."
"Comfort of nonexistence" is an oxymoron.
If you miss it so bad just kys, honestly.
>b-but muh fear of deaf!!!
Spoken like somebody who's never had to struggle to get something he wanted
>Imagine ripping someone from the comfort of nonexistence into this shithole
there is no comfort in nonexistence. it's literally nothingness.
What no pussy does to a mf
Dont be a pussy and get over it. Life sucks but it's also a grand adventure. We probably are bored as shit being in eternal paradise and long to be born so we can have another go at all this crap
if you think natalism is so EEEVEL!!! then why don't you kill yourself, OP?
>I’m pro life btw life is so beautiful until you disagree with my programming then you need to terminate life with expediency
>Wahhh wahhh life is so terrible life isn't worth living at all.
A reminder good always outweigh the bad. You can simply seethe impotently at people who enjoy life.
Until it doesn’t……but I guess we won’t see your change of heart until it’s your pasty ass walking that long ass road
>He has no argument and keeps wishing evil happens to others
Lol the average antinatalist. If someone is happy they immediately wish they were suffering. Very healthy mindset you have huh
Why should I care if I wish it
I mean you love life either way right
Paint on a caution wind
'Neath the bleeding sky
I called your name
There was no one there
And in the cold and snow
I saw your face
And we sang our song for the little thing
Magic call, but the joy you bring
Running it down the line
Wish you could find that love is a fragile thing
Magic call from a pretty thing
Maybe it might be time
For a better day
For a better day
For a better day
Straight, from the path of love
In the road of life
I tumble forward
But I'm going on
I'mma keep it strong
I saw your face
And we sang our song for the little thing
Magic call, but the joy you bring
Running it down the line
Wish you could find that love is a fragile thing
Magic call from a pretty thing
Maybe it might be time
For a better day
For a better day
For a better day
For a better day
For a better day
For a better day
Nice copy paste. So you still haven't answered any of the questions in this thread.
>dat pic
is that a predator horse with stereoscopic vision or was the painter trying to make the horse resemble the rider?
Yes life is beautiful. I love the sun, trees, clouds, and food.
>everyone must think life is totally awful like me!!
I fucking love living, I don't care if life is suffering, i want to fucking live and have others live as well. I don't care what trannylike delusions you have cooked up in your head, i see immense love and pride in people who've had kids and i want to have them too
Yes, have kids. Kids are always needed for some more quality child porn
>this r*ddit tranny psyop again
I have nothing but contempt for demoralized defeatist nihilists, whether you are religious or not, I can't imagine anything more pathetic than to give up because the universe did not baby you and grant you immediate perfection. Fuck off and die already you spoiled grubhub homosexual. Not even the most pathetic NEETs here hold a candle to your decrepitude. If you hate it so much, just leave this universe to those willing to live in it. If life really is so terrible you would have no fear flying off a skyscraper, just like skydiving, literally 0 pain.
The nice thing about anti-natalists is that they remove themselves from the gene pool.
Like the gays?
>We should all stop reproducing to eliminate suffering
So uhhh should we also exterminate every single plant and animal on the planet before killing ourselves? This would certainly reduce suffering even more by preventing future generations of life existing, and that's the only thing that matters.
We need to wipe out all life in the universe first.
Why? What if they like their life? Are you forcing this decision onto them? Seems pretty selfish no?
but if humanity goes extinct how will we do that, we need to develop an interstellar civilization of reavers that expands in all directions eradicating all life and leaving behind only machines programmed to make sure it does not emerge again
Oh I just got it now. You're the retard who things everyone who disagrees with him lives in the tri-state area and is conservative. Fucking hilarious. Been a while since you were here. You get banned? Why haven't you killed yourself?
If you love non-existence so much, why don't you stop existing and kill yourself? Practice what you preach.
fuck off doomfags, I'm having a good time on this earth and there is nothing you can do to stop me.
>someone
>comfort of
>nonexistence
Flawed premise, post discarded.
/thread
>ripping someone from the comfort of nonexistence
Ripping who?
>None of us asked to be born
Who would be asking?
You, like every anti-natalist are committing a fallacy of attributing personhood there where it's by definition lacking. You may FEEL like your complaints are valid, but they have no philosophical or logical merit.
>comfort of nonexistence
Non-existence is non-existence.
The darkest pill of them all.
Nice leftist meme homosexual
tl;dr?
Nothing is God.
Once you exist, you are fucked.
What makes you so fucked? Suicide literally makes you not exist anymore.
> Suicide literally makes you not exist anymore.
Even if you commit suicide, it wouldn't be as if you never existed so it isn't solution. That is why it is the darkest pill, even suidice is just a false hope...
This actually does make a lot of sense. Earth just happens to be the only planet in the entire galaxy capable of sustaining life through a combination of elements so incredible it can only be put down to flukes to end all flukes. There's no way any of this was planned.
You may not realize this. But not everyone is a clinically depressed suicidal loser. A lot of us enjoy living. Yeah it's scary, has it's hardships, but the ride of life is way too interesting to want to give up. Also "thing I don't like us evil!!!" Is stupid and intellectually dishonest, it's tiresome. You're welcome to your opinions but demonizing things don't like shows only how emotionally stunted you are.
Why do anti-natalists trigger you guys so much?
>why does hypocrisy cause aggravation?
The answer is self evident
Your train of thought implies that murder-suicide is a heroic act, but what if I don't want to die, or I'm not ready to die yet, or I'm grateful for the life that I do have? This is why people hate you
>ripping someone from the comfort of nonexistence
proof this has ever happened?
Once you exist generally you want to continue existing and something that doesn't exist can't desire to not exist.
Life is a non consensual self sustaining force, from its inception.
The thing is life is not inherently intelligent or conscious. That only happened much more recently in evolution.
Consciousness and intelligence (most notably the ability to feel pain and great suffering) create an issue.
Antinatalism is the only solution to that issue. The problem is, it's not a tenable solution. It's pointless to argue with natalists, too. They are coddled hypocrites. I always advise anyone thinking otherwise to spend some time volunteering on an elderly home or serving soup to poor drug addicts or something of the sort.
The "stoic" macho homosexuals that say they love suffering and "no pain no gain" are the worst ones. They're the first ones to go into a full spiral when they find themselves in a hole too deep to dig out of by themselves. Originally stoicism was never against suicide once things become too grim, which is unsurprisingly why the creator of stoicism unironically killed himself after breaking his toe (look it up, not even memeing).
It's pointless though. People like this are incapable of understanding the scale of time. They are incapable of understanding that everything they know as life is less than 0.0001% of the history of LIFE as a thing on this planet. Their religion, their visions, their gods, are the creation of monkeys that have existed for 0.0001%. As is their suffering.
There are plenty of life forms that are capable of existing without suffering like we do, and possibly over time there will be other intelligent life forms that learn how to prevent unyielding suffering. But we are not that species. Antinatalism is irrefutably correct. It's just impractical.
Never, ever argue with natalists. You are not arguing with a human mind, you're arguing with a set of instructions. You might as well argue with a javascript code.
Never waste your time arguing with them.
You found the right answer.
>Those who disagree don't actually disagree, it's just brainwash
Unironically cope.
Anti-natalism can be refuted without reference to natalism. It is internally inconsistent.
I'm talking from experience. Growing up I had multiple chronic illnesses and my family was full of natalist type "chin up, son, you're just an overthinker". I hated seeing them growing older and going senile, getting parkinsons, dementia, choking on their own food and dripping shit on the floor until both of them were begging for death. They are still lucky all in all, It only started happening in their 70's after a rather fulfilling life by most accounts.
Some people just get unlucky earlier.
It's the type of thing you only understands when it happens to you and you're not a coddled first world homosexual with the white picket fence and a cute dog in the backyard.
Just the other day I was watching this video on some guy living in a slum, barely able to feed his family, saying "man fuck the government they don't let me work n' shit, how can I feed my daughter". Why would someone have a daughter they can't feed?
It reminds me of the book of Job. People focus on Job, and the lessons that Job teaches as he survives the trial by god.They forget that, even though job gets a new family and gets healed, his old family is brutally killed in the process.
There is no conceivable way that antinatalism is wrong. It's just not something that can be implemented.
It's like figuring out that you have a puzzle with a missing piece. You could build the correct solution up to that missing piece, but the puzzle is impossible to complete. You're "right", but you can't finish the puzzle.
You those videos about the food industry that show animals getting brutally tortured? Ever asked yourself why those animals keep procreating even though it just perpetuates their suffering at our hands? Natalists are just more of the same. They are too afraid to use their cognition to decide something that could go against the set of instructions in their genes.
Sometimes what (you) want is not the genes want, that's ok.
We had multiple cancers in our family. Grandma's one was fatal, lungs full of fluid, numb bodyparts etc. At no point was she regretting to have been born.
Your concersns are valid, but they are not objective. They're how you or your relatives viewed the evenets. To propose your concerns invalidate existence is like to propose my grandma's gratitude validates it. Neither is true.
>There is no conceivable way that antinatalism is wrong.
Yes there is. Internal inconsistency. Both OP and "Better To Never Have Been" are guilty of it:
.
To be fair, an argument (such as anti-natalism) doesn't have to account for pajeets who are too dumb to take it into account.
Anti-natalism is still wrong tho so...
>They are coddled hypocrites.
Please explain how natalism is hypocritical? Because anti natalism is by definition hypocrisy.
>Life is bad
Then why are you still alive?
>Please explain how natalism is hypocritical?
They claim to like life as a fundamental thing, and not as circumstantial thing that can be changed at any minute, if something really bad happened to them. There's infinitely many examples if you're ever brave enough to leave layer 0 of the normie iceberg.
>Then why are you still alive?
Tried killing myself twice with the methods I had at hand and failed, but better methods are out of reach because of life-affirming people like you 🙂 .
Did you know that suicidal people have less rights than the average rapist or terrorist if they ever get thrown in a suicide ward? Really makes you think don't it.
>Talk about life quality destroying chronic illnesses that make you suffer for 70 years
>You talk about terminal diseases that kill you in a few years at most.
You're not one of the bright ones, are you?
The saddest thing is that I honestly deep down don't wish ill upon people like you. I really just want to be free from this shit and I could not imagine making a bet with someones life just because I need to have some sense of pride or some shit like this.
>I really just want to be free from this shit
And that's a valid wish. But once again, that's not objective and hence it doesn't invalidate existence. Plus, anti-natalism is internally inconsistent.
Feel free to respond to these two points instead of appealing to how much worse one pain is than another.
Honestly if you just legalized suicide clinics (they're not even expensive and I don't see why it would bother you and your edgy lack of empathy) I'd be ok with this. People that don't want to live get to kill themselves easily, don't get thrown into wards to be tortured and experimented upon, and people that want to try their chance at life get to do so too. It's actually easy to imlpement, compared to implementing anti-natalism. But life affirming robots like you will never allow this, because you know you'd run out of slaves sooner rather than later.
>anti-natalism is internally inconsistent
It's hard to address this when the only thing I have is you repeating this sentence and nothing else. Could you start by describing what is inconsistent about it?
Yeah you know the SJW dangerhairs are always complaining on LULZ about ahmed and pajeet replacing them right fellow leftist?
Suicide clinics could be a discussion, I'll leave it for when we're done with anti-natalism if you'll allow me.
>you repeating this sentence and nothing else.
I linked you to the post where the fallacy is pointed out twice:
. Nobody benefits from non-existence because there's nobody there to benefit. It's a point so simple it sounds almost foolish, but it's a logical inconsistency on which the core anti-natalist argument stands.
I'm not sure using a figure of speech invalidates anti-natalism logically.
Once a being is born they live life, without ever having gotten a say in whether they wanted to live this life or not. This doesn't depend on their personhood having existed before or not.
Whether you had a preexisting personhood or not (which I don't believe you did, agreeing with you), you could still not agree to being given the life you were given, and conceptualize that you would've wanted a different life if given the option.
So the fact he uses some figures of speech doesn't seem to invalidate antinatalism as far as I understand.
Someone like you would end up in a ward for sure. You legitimately have no idea what you're talking about or you live in somewhere in the US where buying a shotgun is as easy as buying a computer. It's irrelevant for 90% of the civilized world.
>having gotten a say in whether they wanted to live this life
>This doesn't depend on their personhood
Hang on, the personhood-less has "a say" in matters? Again, this is the fallacy I pointed out before. If you think I'm attacking figures of speech, feel free to change them. But so far every single iteration was fallacious.
>you could still not agree
You couldn't, because there was no "you".
>lashes out in seethe
Hit the nail on the head huh? So what happened the rope snapped or you had last minute regrets and wiggled your way out of your noose?
>People that don't want to live get to kill themselves easily,
You can easily kill yourself now. Which 2 ways did you try to kill yourself? I suspect hanging yourself (retarded way btw) or taking a bunch of sleeping pills.
Want to know what works 99.9% of the time with people who have a normal fucking brain? Jumping off someplace reeealllly high or a nice simple gunshot.
> jumping off a building is more effective than hanging
Omegalul
Got a point? Make it then.
There is no point to make. People like you are giving asspulled bad advice on suicide methods and some people will end up permanently maimed if they hear you. There are no legal effective methods because life is so great that society has to ban any talk or thought or method of suicide with harsher penalties than any crime.
Unless you are a fuckhead. killing yourself is pretty easy. Thousands kill themselves by jumping off bridges like the one over the Yankze River or the Golden Gate Bridge. Sure if you jump off the part that is 30 feet high you might survive but normally people jump at the part that's over a hundred feet high and that always does the job.
Same with a gun. Unless you are a retard that aims it under your chin aiming only for your lobe instead of in your temple that hits everything. It will kill you no problem.
You know when a child tries to fool the school teacher by pretending they read a book or some shit?
I know you're talking out of your ass and just spouting stuff you think is true. It's why it's easy for me to just ignore your bullshit.
I got out much less than the average life affirming normie, absolutely. I also take more precautions. Even then I've lived things that most people consider fulfilling. I'm still an antinatalist. Got any other ridiculous simplifications to make?
What the fuck are you talking about you everliving fucking retard? What does killing a living being of any kind, in any situation, has to do with antiNATALISM?
Do you understand that this is an ideology talking about BIRTH, not DEATH?
Holy fucking shit you moronic braindead fuck.
>An ideology about birth not death
It is an ideology about how all life is evil and the only solution is to end life. You have said it yourself, you want revenge for your existence.
and every antinatalist would press a death button to kill all life no matter anyone else's wants or needs
So you agree how nobody should be born because they MIGHT get hurt and get suffering. So now that you are here why do ANYTHING since you might do suffering or get suffering?
>just spouting stuff you think is true
Oh so now you don't believe people can kill themselves from jumping or guns huh? Interesting? Got any other facts Mr. Incredible? You try to get run over by a train too and it just rammed into you Hancock style?
Every word you're pulling out of your ask brings an innocent suffering person closer to doing something that will irreversibly harm them or put them in a suicide ward where they'll be tortured in ways you can't begin to imagine. I'd honestly advise you to stop just blabbering your retarded opinions and consider that real life is not like the hollywood movies.
The most effective methods of suicides are all outlawed for a reason. If governments and religions actually believed life is great and believed in "just kys" they wouldn't create so many obstacles for it.
Tell me. What is the fail percentage of suicide victims with self-inflicted gunshot wounds?
>Nothing deserves destruction
So humans do deserve to live huh. Just not allowed to have kids because they might scratch their knee oh NO!!!!
I'll tell you about "wellness checks" and gun permit laws outside of the US instead.
>mans do deserve to live huh.
Destruction implies something was created.
Destroying something that was created is not the same as not creating it from the get go.
I can repost that if you need to understand it. I'm just not gonna make a drawing.
I’ve done a fair bit of research into this, as I plan on offing myself at some point, and statistically hanging has the highest rate of death per attempt. That’s hanging by asphyxiation, not the retarded swinging-feet-above-the-floor shit you see in pop culture.
It was followed (in lethality) by guns. I can’t remember the entire list, but pills were embarrassingly low, and also one of the most used.
Why would you want to kill yourself?
<<<
Ah, right. Well it’s not just life, it’s existence in general, that I think it bad.
> Why do you think your morals are superior to those?
I mean, the universe does appear to agree with me, doesn’t it? It’s trying to effectively kill itself, and goody-two-shoes fuckers are fighting against the prevailing wind.
(Pic related)
No. What makes it shit?
>The universe is trying to kill itself
Is it? When was this established?
> what makes it shit
> when was this established?
Net entropy increase. It’s “only” mathematically proven that a system degrades over time, but from my personal experience it looks like a pretty accurate model.
So yes. Eventually the sun will expand and consume the earth. Still doesn't mean people can't have kids and enjoy their lives.
I mean if this is it why not enjoy yourself?
> shit’s fucked anyway, so anything goes, do whatever you want.
Damn, you’re okay with someone raping and killing you if they enjoy it? That’s a pretty bold stance to take.
>lack of empathy
>we need to kill them before they get hurt
Ah such mental reasoning. Can't get hurt if you are dead.
Kill whom? Antinatalism doesn't propose killing anyone. The only one doing this is you.
The personhood-less is never in the picture. I'm saying (you), after being born, can have opinions on whether you wanted this to happen or not, but it's already too late in either case. The existence or not of a personhood prior is completely irrelevant. If there was a personhood before that wanted to be alive and you after becoming alive felt like you didn't consent to it antinatalism would still be the same in either case.
The existence or not of a personhood before you are born is irrelevant. (Just to be perfectly clear, I don't believe in such a personhood anyway).
As long as the (you) alive didn't consent to the life you have, antinatalism has no contradiction. The (you) alive didn't will yourself into this planet. You exist because of the choice of others. That's the only thing that matters to this discussion. Just because they can decide to will new people into this life doesn't mean that they should or that it's right (in fact it's wrong).
(You) do not have a say so it is irrelevent what (you) want. You have a choice when you are in this world not before. You can continue to go on in life or you can choose to end it. Doesn't matter if two other people made a choice to make you. You have no say in the matter.
>Doesn't matter if two other people made a choice to make you. You have no say in the matter.
This is a tautology, lol. Of course you have no say in the matter if other people decided for you. Antinatalism is the position that this very fact, exactly what you said, is morally wrong, and thus life shouldn't be perpetuated.
>Claiming anyone is doing anything just to be edgy
>Posts this
Go be a retard somewhere else.
>no argument
if life is so bad then why won't you commit suicide, it is painless and fun, you can bring your antinatalist friends and go together
simple question
Read this
read this
it is relevant for the reasons explained in that post
>Antinatalism is the position that this very fact, exactly what you said, is morally wrong, and thus life shouldn't be perpetuated.
Ah I understand, but what makes it morally wrong?
if it's so bad do this
if you won't then you agree life is worth living and you are just spamming antinatalist shit to be edgy
the "kys" argument is logically infallible and completely disproves antinatalism
and don't forget to do a flip fgt
>I'm saying (you), after being born, can have opinions on whether you wanted this to happen or not
You can't. There was nobody who wanted or didn't want this. What you're evaluating is retrospect, which may or may not be valid (so far all retrospects provided were subjective only) but it doesn't warrant pretending that there was a "you" prior to birth that needs to be reflected on.
>As long as the (you) alive didn't consent to the life you have, antinatalism has no contradiction.
Yes, there is. Consent cannot be given by non-existent parties. It's like saying Michael Jackson didn't consent to the loud sex my neighbor had yesterday and hence it's rape and there is no internal contradiction. But there is one. It wasn't rape. Because consent (and its lack) of non-existent parties is not a thing to begin with.
>The (you) alive didn't will yourself into this planet.
As logic dictates, yes.
>Just because they can decide to will new people into this life doesn't mean that they should or that it's right (in fact it's wrong).
I'm not even arguing it's right. I'm arguing that your argument for it being wrong is fallacious. Which it is. You're relying on non-existent things.
You can learn logic circles as long as you want.
The very simple, clear cut fact is. If you ask me, the person who is alive:
"Did you consent to the act of being birthed".
My answer is
"No".
And logically, by the very same proof you provide, everyone's answer is "no", because there was no prior being there to consent. You yourself proved that birth is not an act that can be consented. By the very definition you give, every being that is alive is here by the decision of others.
Antinatalism is the position that his is immoral. Your logic circlejerking does actually nothing to undermine this position.
>B-b-b-b-but it's just your opinion bro
Again, the answer to the question "did you consent to being born" is "no". That's all that matters to the discussion.
>NOOOOOOOO YOU CAN'T SAY NO THERE WAS NO PREVIOUS F...
you're not talking to an unborn soul, I don't give a fuck what Dennet or whatever youtube retard says. You're talking to me, and I tell you that I did not consent to be born. Whether you take that to mean "I had a previous soul and it didn't want this" or "I had no unborn form and thus could not consent by definition" is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that I did not consent to being alive. I was put here by others. That is immoral. That's all there is to it.
>"Did you consent to the act of being birthed".
>My answer is
>"No".
Correct. And if they ask you "does it matter?" your answer should be likewise. Because non-existent's parties' consent isn't reflected. See sex example.
>By the very definition you give, every being that is alive is here by the decision of others.
Yes.
>Antinatalism is the position that his is immoral
And it fails to make a consistent argument that would lead to this conclusion. Because it relies on the non-existent.
>And if they ask you "does it matter?" your answer should be likewise
Sex is a bad example because you have a being that could in theory not consent.
Maybe circumcision is better. You could imagine all you want that a baby would not consent, and claim that their crying or something is proof of this, but babies can't speak for themselves. You might even get adults saying that they are glad they got circumcized, and claim they are brainwashed or something. I actually think there is an overlap between the type of edgy trad larper that is against antinatalism and also the type of people that would be against circumcision, so I guess you could start deconstructing your shit there. Yeah by the time circumcision kicks in the baby is already born, but he is not yet in "consenting form" if you would like to call it that. There is a being, but it cannot yet grasp language or whatever else enough to consent or not. But people that are against circumcision err on the side of avoiding potential damages to the baby, even if you have millions of people as proof that living circumcized is fine.
This false dichotomy you create by making this a problem of unborn souls is irrelevant. An antinatalist can simply ignore this logic circlejerk.
>Because it relies on the non-existent.
It really doesn't. This is not about a criminal offense against an unborn soul. It's about people bringing living things into existence when this could result in immense suffering to them, with no good reason. the existence of previous unborn souls is 100% irrelevant. You could insist antinatalists rely on them for argument but it's just empty words on your end.
>Sex is a bad example because you have a being that could in theory not consent.
That's precisely what makes it a proper example of consent. There being a being whose consent should actually be reflected.
>Yeah by the time circumcision kicks in the baby is already born, but he is not yet in "consenting form" if you would like to call it that
I guess you could. But here you're just making hazy a concept that's pretty clear cut in the sex example. If you think a baby can consent specifically to bodily integrity, it's wrong. If you think it can't, then the lack of consent doesn't have moral implications. A non-existent being can't consent. Hence no moral implications.
>This false dichotomy you create by making this a problem of unborn souls is irrelevant.
I didn't propose souls. I pointed out consent of non-existent parties doesn't have moral implications.
>It's about people bringing living things into existence when this could result in immense suffering to them
Sure. And if your argument were an evaluation of risks, I'd aim at those goalposts. But so far your only argument was lack of consent. Which in case of non-existent parties has no moral implications.
Most of the time circumcision is unnecessary. However, being born is necessary for existence.
>Why have kids?
I'd want to teach my child from my own experience. And we also need more saints.
Kys lmao.
>I'd want to teach my child from my own experience. And we also need more saints.
A selfish ego stroke and some vague schizo wish. Nice. I'm almost ready to start making babies now. Any other great reasons?
>I pointed out consent of non-existent parties doesn't have moral implications.
Then you should warn those non-existing parties about this, I'm sure they'll be a bit sad about it.
But for now you're talking me, an existing party, so maybe we could focus on that? Remember that part when I said the answer to the question whether I consented to my birth was "no" and you agreed and all that? Your best argument so far is that "this doesn't matter", but at best this translates to you being indifferent to my suffering (which is pretty obvious). It doesn't really translate to antinatalism being wrong in any way.
Antinatalism would have to claim it's fighting for the rights of unborn non-personhoods for your argument to start making sense.
>If you don't care about non-existent parties then you don't care about existent parties
Non-sequitur.
I understand you view your life negatively. But that doesn't warrant inflating the concept of consent to literal infinity, given that there is an infinite amount of parties that don't exist during each event. Each sex turns into rape. Every single one. That's not how consent works.
>Antinatalism would have to claim it's fighting for the rights of unborn non-personhoods
No, I didn't rely on "rights".
Ok, let me try to put the problem a bit differently.
Say that I had a button that I could press, and it instantly makes a person be born. They are not related to me in any way, not genetically, and they don't know I created them either. It's just a button I could press. Now say that there is a 100% chance this person will suffer horribly after coming into being. Say I press this button a million times now.
This is an exaggerated example, I'm not saying this is equivalent to life, but in this case you'd argue I'm not really doing anything wrong, right? The person was not there before to consent to me pressing the button, and I don't know whether they'll appreciate life even though they are suffering so much.
I think antinatalists would agree no one should ever press that button.
Life is just a more hazy version of this where the button press has more advantages to you (genetic relatability, ego strokes, you get your dick wet), and the probability of suffering is not 100%. But it's an equivalent problem for an antinatalist. They still won't push that button because they don't feel it's up to them to make that decision.
Natalists on the other hand argue you must push the button, because the button is there, and because everyone pushes it. That's basically it. Whatever happens after you push the button is not really an issue.
>Button
>new person
>100% chance of suffering
What's the stats for the rest?
>in this case you'd argue I'm not really doing anything wrong, right?
I'd argue you can't establish wrong-doing from such a limited premise.
>I think antinatalists would agree no one should ever press that button.
And they fail to provide an argument for it.
>probability of suffering is not 100%
I was actually fine with this one, I can't conceive of any life that would be devoid of suffering.
Even if they have 100% chance of suffering in life, they will bring eternal glory to God in heaven.
>It's about people bringing living things into existence when this could result in immense suffering to them
Do you drive your car? You could crash it? So you should NEVER drive a car EVER!
I actually don't drive a car. Not for that reason, but because my chronic problems make me ineligible for driving. Got any other armchair advice I should be aware of?
Oh thank goodness you don't drive. You might get hurt! Do you ever go outside? You might get hit by something as well. Better just never go outside ever.
The argument from nonexistence doesn’t make sense when the child is planned, or when the risks (of creating a child) are known. By this same logic, it would be okay for me to shoot you - because until I’ve shot you, I haven’t shot you, and therefore no crime has been committed.
>There's infinitely many examples if you're ever brave enough to leave layer 0 of the normie iceberg.
Maybe use a normal fucking sentence
>really bad happened to them
Really bad stuff has happened to me yet I still enjoy life. Bad stuff that happens doesn't counteract the good in my life.
>Then why are you still alive?
Because my parents fucked.
>You found the right answer.
This is why I haven't argued for antinatalism in years. In all of those years I never got a convincing counterargument. I still scan these threads looking for something, anything, but its all ad hom and poor understanding. Most pessimists and antinatalists I think would love a convincing counterargument. Nobody wants to think this way. This isn't a fun conclusion we've come to.
Kind of hard to counter "You need to ask consent to someone who doesn't exist"
It is illogical.
Prime example. I bet you think you have something here. It would be no end to cosmic relief if you did, but you don't. You can't even get your head around the basics of the argument. It only serves to further disappoint.
I am not the one demanding I ask consent to someone who doesn't exist. I mean technically not getting an answer back isn't "no". So they can easily make the decision if they enjoy life or not. Remember there is always "the easy way out"
We're not asking you to ask consent. We're telling you there is no conceivable way to ask for consent, so you shouldn't reproduce.
By the way, you said you would talk about suicide clinics and you haven't. Would you mind doing so now? This is something natalists often fail to respond to. If you're really ok with people mass suiciding if they hated life, why not making it easy for them to make that decision? Why would that hurt you?
Why is consent required in the first place?
>Suicide clinics
Why waste my tax money on someone too afraid to jump off a bridge?
No need to waste anything. People can pay for their own suicide materials. You just need to legalize it. That's all.
Any arguments?
>Privatized Suicide Networks.
Ohhhhh Shit yes. Usually stuff like this is I imagine is federally enforced or something. But if it is privately owned business I am all for it.
Also there can be no regulation.
I'm actually ok with this too. If clinics like this existed worldwide I'd see this as an alternative to antinatalism. You'd actually give people a humane way out of life if they feel they got the short end of the stick. Antinatalism is still preferable, but I'd be ok with this option.
And it would be a good way to make a lot of money.
Gonna need collateral and the deed to your home in order to use these services or an incredible mark up paid by the family.
>Gonna need collateral and the deed to your home in order to use these services or an incredible mark up paid by the family.
Why do you have to ruin everything. The materials literally cost less than 100 dollars. Don't be a retard.
>Don't be a retard
Why leave money on the table? They aren't going to need their stuff anymore since...y'know. And it is important the whole family is in agreement unless you are alone then you will need a Doctor's approval. No worries it would be like getting a Doctor's note for work. Simple.
>And it is important the whole family is in agreement unless you are alone then you will need a Doctor's approval.
And there it is. The natalist ptus an obstacle in front of suicide again. Why is it so pathological for you? Also, there is no reason for you to interfere with normal laws of inheritance and whatnot. Stop being so fucking greedy and robotic for once, for fuck's sake. The one thing separating these people from what they want is some cheap materials and you letting go of taboo.
>The one thing separating these people from what they want is some cheap materials and you letting go of taboo.
And you know, their own cowardice for not being able to just jump off a building taller than 200 meters or pulling a trigger.
I like my idea since people get what they want, they just have to pay for it. You have a problem with the free market? Don't like my service? You can go to Dr. Shekleburgs clinic who is 5% cheaper but is less...comfortable.
Literally no reason to make it simple. If you are poor you don't get a free pass or pay the price of a fast food burger to die peacefully. It is a luxury not a right.
Americans really are the scourge of this planet.
At least it works itself around next time you need to go to a hospital and basically get bankrupt for it.
>NOOO YOU HAVE TO LET ME DIE FOR FREEEEEEEEE NOOOOOO
You can do that now for free as well. Take maybe 30 aspirin along with some vodka. Or just jump off a building.
>You need to give me your house and get consent from your entire family and a medical doctor.
Yeah, it's hard to feel sorry for americans that get fucked by hospital bills or opioid overprescriptions when people like you are the main representatives of that shit hole. I guess you get what you pay for. I should've realized this is the level of people I was arguing against all this time.
So why do you think you are entitled to free services? When you go to Starbucks do you also demand free coffee?
What part of "people pay for their own suicide" don't you understand?
You are the "Dr. Shekleburg" of this scenario. When given a chance to charge for something your first immediate thought is to completely explore and financially destroy a person just because they are in a desperate condition. You are the lowest form of unempathetic subhuman.
Being american it is almost assured that either you or someone in your family is gonna go through the consequences of diabetes, cancer or some other shit that will land you on a hospital and cost you heavily precisely because you love exploiting people this much. You get to actually live your control fantasy in real time, only it's assuredly you or someone close to you that's gonna go through it. If you still have living boomer relatives even better, because you'll be paying those beloved tax dollars to support their 90 year old ass countless medical procedures.
Holy fucking hell, kek. It makes so much sense why it felt like I was arguing with walls all this time. Good luck, shart of the brave.
Because it's illegal.
The whole home and consent thing seems excessive but I would definitely require a fee of 1000 and you signing a document that says your family cannot sue me for killing you when you were in an unsound mind or some shit like that. Or intoxicated.
Your family gets the body. But I would have to do spmething to the organs to discourage drug addicts and the mafia suiciding homeless for their organs.
>The materials literally cost less than 100 dollars
Then why don't you just buy them and kill yourself?
Why legalize suicide? Life is inherently good you dullard. People with mental disabilities like yourself thinking the solution to end suffering is to kill everyone is no different than saying the way stop global warming is to blow up the sun. Which is why it is better to have programs that help people rather than just giving you people "the easy way out".
Even the very idea of calling someone a pessimist is sort of laughable. Pessimists are realists. The word "pessimist" is just a testament to a world ran by automatons that keep following their set of instructions, no matter what. It's kind of funny that Schopenhauer came to embody pessimism more than anyone, precisely because he gave a name to this "following the code" behavior.
>me stubbing my toe is a pure evil that outweighs all human happiness and achievement rendering it meaningless
>therefore we in the west should stop having children and let ahmed, chang, ngubu and pajeet who will never give a shit about antinatalism take over and continue on as normal without us
1 - Why did the founder of stoicism kill himself after literally breaking his toe?
2 - How many children do you have?
3 - If natalism is the best possible philosophy why do you resent people that outbreed you? Aren't they playing 'life' exactly like you preach?
1: irrelevant
2: irrelevant
3: loaded question
antinatalism is purely subjective, you just randomly decide the bad outweighs the good, and you're lying because if this were the case you could commit suicide painlessly, anons often suggest this and it is a perfectly valid argument even if they can't quite put the logic into words
further there is not the slightest feasibility of your little ideology becoming a success because ahmed etcetera... will never give a shit about it, only a minority of neurotic deluded soibs like yourself will care and you're headed to extinction
if this is elaborate bait I applaud you, but it seems there is a whole community on r*ddit dedicated to this and people spend countless hours there, so more likely you're just retarded
You can only speak in alr-right lingo because you've been consuming exclusively this internet digested shit for the past whatever many years of your life. If you ever manage to leave the "everything I don't like is reddit soimen" island you'll prolly be able to address my arguments a bit better.
I agree that antinatalism is not feasible. That doesn't mean it's not correct. And I don't think it has anything to do with whatever race you particularly hate because they get to have sex and you don't.
I think you also fail to understand that I've done most of the things people like to strive for. I have a fulfilling job, I've had nice relationships, I've travelled and had nice experiences. But living with chronic illnesses in this world of non-empathic animals is an absolute torture I would not wish upon anyone. I'm really skeptical that you somehow achieved so much that you'd make me reconsider all my life and make me feel tiny or any ego bullshit like this.
It's really simple and practical for me. I don't like being in gratuitous pain and depending on the good will of absolute psychopaths like you to lead life, and I wouldn't want other people to have to experience this, despite the fact that I proved (to whom?) that it's possible to attain things in life even then.
I'm not that attached to my ego or to my life or to life in general that I need to put others through the same shit process "just because", or just to BTFO "ahmed" or "reddit".
The fuck did he say that was alt-right lol
Is this the final cope? Trump?
brain tells me it's evil. heart tells me i'm thankful that my parents created me and not to be ungrateful at a chance at life.
we only live 80 years, like 100 max. which is a blink in eternity. it's so temporary that i think it's worth it.
Your heart is dumb.
It's the heart that drives anti-natalist "uwu so much painnnnn" argument.
I didn't say the heart is dumb. I said your heart is dumb.
How can a heart be intelligent, my friend?
Your brain is just retarded
do a flip
I remember this nigga bring shilled a few years back.
Also, if you never existed, you wouldn't be able to refrain your consent. Moot point.
Also do a flip fgt lmao.
Telling a thing that is born to kill itself is irrelevant to antinatalism. It's only relevant if you're an edgy retard thinking you're gonna actually make someone kill themselves. Or maybe you do eventually convince someone to do that and have to live with the consequences of that act, if you had any semblance of empathy.
But it's still irrelevant to antinatalism. Relevant to pessimism, absurdism, whatever the fuck else you want, just not antinatalism.
A more relevant question would be to say "kill yourself before you have children" or something. Because if someone kills themselves after having children, then I guess there's something there to be said about antinatalism.
But by all means, keep being an edgy retard. Usually people that come to embrace antinatalism have dealt with worse than this in life.
What evidence is do anti natalist even have that this supposed "comfort of nonexistence" exists?
Can you remember suffering before you were born? Most of us cant. You might say that's not definitive evidence, or even good evidence, but it is evidence. To most non-schizo people without agendas though, that is definitely solid evidence.
"I" did not exist. There was not comfort, no anything. How could anything in a state of nonexistence have anything if it didnt exist?
This
Some knuckle dragging boomer who just finished his daily six pack and spouted off some hot takes isn’t going to change that
muslims won't stop having children you stupid shit, no one will care except a bunch of fedora r*dditors in the west
and morality isn't as simple as "bad thing happen therefore all existence bad", you have to weigh the good and the bad, sometimes it is good to make choices for other people, if you are a paramedic and someone is unconscious for example
antinatalism is just an oversimplification of morality, this is fucking obvious and completely logically disproves antinatalism, you're an idiot
The truly consistent position is antianthropism, in which you have to remove everyone from existence to achieve the anti natalist goals.
it is inconsistent with
>and morality isn't as simple as "bad thing happen therefore all existence bad", you have to weigh the good and the bad, sometimes it is good to make choices for other people, if you are a paramedic and someone is unconscious for example
you can't even read and understand other arguments, just repeat your old shit tired worn out arguments, it is like you are stuck in a recursive loop because you are too retarded to contemplate anything else but your own brainsharts
>23:52:37
Jesus fucking christ. This schizo from reddit has spent 19 hours spamming and bumping this antinatalist thread even though random anons keep deboonking him time and time again. He can't even come up with a decent counterargument. What a twat!
At this point though antinatalism counts as spam.
>And they fail to provide an argument for it.
They don't like the extent suffering can reach for conscious beings with a complex brain. You don't like that argument, but it's a bit silly claiming its not an argument.
Although the button example is silly sounding for humans it is essentially what we do for cattle with artificial insemination and other types of industrial processes. We press a button and thousands or millions of animals are conceived which have a nearly 100% chance of living an actual terrible life.
Intuitively, if those animals could speak, there's a good chance a lot of them would not consent to being part of this cycle, but I bet at least a few of those diseases chickens with missing eyes and shit would say "lol if you don't like it do a flip fgt i'm grateful the button god gave me this chance to become a nugg-AAACK"
I wish natalistst could just be more honest, is all. I'm not OP or some of the other antinatalists on the thread, but I made it clear since my first post that I know antinatalism is not actually practical and could never be implemented as a societal change. I treat it as a personal choice that I make.
But you could admit you just have children following the same lame selfish programming that makes chickens perpetuate their misery in pic related, or praising the button god too. Every antinatalists was born of a natalist.
There are better ways to raise cattle. Better quality meat too.
>animal suffering
Irrelevant. Animals are made to serve humans. Doesn't matter if they are in servitude via farming, travel, or even as pets or as sustenance for our food. Their suffering is permissible since they serve a higher purpose for us humans.
>wanting to share the gift of life is wrong and evil and I can't wait til all natalists suffer horrible events in their life.
Ah yes. Such a healthy way to think.
Which quote are you posting?
That you're making a bet with someone's life for selfish reasons.
Explain how it is selfish.
List of common reasons to have a child:
>Because I want to ensure MY genes pass on
>Because I need someone to work on MY farm
>Because I need to feel like MY life has purpose
>Because it would make ME happy
>Because it would save MY marriage
>Because MY wife wants one
>Because that's the natural step forward for MY relationship
Bonus:
>Because it's just what you do ain't it
>Actually I didn't mean to have a child it was an accident
Last 2 are not really that selfish, just stupid.
If it is a need instead of a want it isn't selfish by definition
Careful anon, the boundary between needs and wants are very loosey-goosey. The only thing anyone really /needs/ to do, is die.
(And be created, but that’s somewhat implicated in there being someone at all)
> I want
Can’t escape it, anon. Every action can have a reason assigned to it.
Even assuming somehow selfless intentions, it’s still the naivety (or perhaps, arrogance) of “I can gift this person a good life” that turns it into an “I’m stupid enough to think I can control this person’s experiences”. It’s an honourable gamble at best, and sheer pigheaded idiocy at worst.
So you agree all parents should be murdered.
The vengeful demon in my gut says yes, but rationally I know this wouldn’t solve anything.
Which ones?
Your morals. You believe all life is immoral. Every human, animal, plant, even cells are abominations and deserve complete and utter destruction. Compare that to any morals made by religions or even the atheistic "Just be kind to others". Why do you think your morals are superior to those?
>It wouldn't solve anything
If you murder someone they can't have kids. Seems like it solves problems.
Hurting living beings that were put here against their wills, with instincts they didn't chose, is not a premise of antinatalism. It's not your fault you have genes that crave reproduction. It's a shame, but I don't blame you for it. You do have a cognition you could be using to not just do the bidding of your genes 100% of the time, but I can't be too angry at you for not doing that.
Still, antinatalism has nothing, never has and never will, to do with killing anything. once something is born, it's outside the realm of antinatalism to fix that. The only thing antinatalism would propose for that being is that they don't have further offspring. Them killing themselves or someone killing them makes 0 difference.
>Every human,
yes
>animal,
no, there's animals with less developed nervous systems that for all we know cannot suffer
> plant, even cells
nope. none of those as far as we know are capable of suffering. those are all fine for an antinatalist
>complete and utter destruction
No. nothing deserves destruction. destroying things that have been created solves nothing. we need to stop creating things. i might as well right a bot that just answers this over and over until your thick head understands this.
you have no idea what you'll be or do. life could have you winning massively and dying on a happy deathbed surrounded by family or being boiled alive by a bored caretaker on an elderly asylum. you have absolutely 0 clue how things will end.
because living a 100% sedentary reclusive hermit style life also hurts the body. I know because I tried. You a a retarded teenager, at least when it comes to debating. I have actually tried most of the things you talk about, including killing myself, and I have probably had more life experiences than you imagine. It is why I am an antinatalist.
>you have absolutely 0 clue how things will end.
>I am scared of the inevitable so it is better that nobody lives
Lol you are just a coward.
> I have actually tried most of the things you talk about, including killing myself,
Try harder you fuckup
>I have more life experience
And look at where it got you. Hiding in your cave seething at the world for your slight inconveniences. Boo fucking hoo.
Again. I'm not attached to my ego. If you want to list your greatest accomplishments to impress everyone in this thread, be my guest. I sincerely doubt you're in a position to be giving me lessons about life, but even if you were, it doesn't matter. I won't condemn a person to living in a reality like this, and people who do are immoral.
>you have no idea what you'll be or do
i know exactly what i'll be because all of my energies will be devoted toward that goal
just as our minds tell us how to walk and how to eat, it tells us what we'll do with ourselves in life
>inb4 you think i'm misinterpreting pic related
Anon, do you know how pic related ended his life? Please tell me you read his full biography.
>Please tell me you read his full biography
which biography specifically? he never wrote one about himself
in regards to his death, you're referring to his descent into insanity whereby he succumbed to nervous breakdowns and syphillis - none of that nullifies the quality of his works
see my previous post
>inb4 you think i'm misinterpreting pic related
Yes. I am saying that your mythical dad lived the 10 last years of hist life completely demented and restrained, and the last 3 or so bed bound after a series of strokes. He further failed to accomplish his goals and was just as human and as limited as any other person. Your self aggrandizing larp does not impress me. I have also further done everything I wished to do with my life, and just want to not suffer greatly before my death, which I embrace and do not fear. All your posturing is absolutely useless.
It seems hypocritical to say only humans should go extinct while animals can stay. Especially since animals can suffer like
point out
Oh, and
> If you murder someone they can't have kids. Seems like it solves problems.
This works on a case-by-case basis, sure, absolutely. It’s just not a long-term solution, because there’ll always be some horny nutjobs breeding like rabbits.
So what do you base these morals off of? What makes your morals superior to others?
So there is no reason to have children by your definition? All parents are evil and need to be killed? Huh never thought of it that way.
>Because I want to gift someone a good life like mine
That was easy.
>the comfort of nonexistence
Literally just stop whining and kill yourself, homosexual.
>hey, did you know you are evil and oppressive for being white, being a man, not dating trannies, owning a gun, eating meat and not living in the pod
>well guess what, now you are evil for having children!
gee, thanks
Reallistically speaking you are probably not close to having children or sex, are you? But I don't think redditors are trying to prevent you from doing this. They're trying to make you think before you decide to have a child you can't raise, but I understand how this can be offensive and all.
And I'm sure a redditor antinatalist is a gigachad who gets all the hot babes.
Antinatalism is just the same moral nitpicking as veganism and all the other bullshit on reddit. You haven't told us what your underlying moral code is and how it justifies this arbitrary and very specific set of moral judgments that just happen to justify antinatalism, why all the bad in life happens to be of 100% importance and why all the good in life is 0% with no nuance or complexity.
Then out of the blue you suddenly start crying about eating meat.
It is obvious what is happening here.
/thread
Veganism is an interesting example. I believe veganism to be logically almost air-tight, as an idea. There's a few exceptions that most vegans are too pious to ever address, but it's irrelevant. Even if veganism was 100% perfect for animals, I would still eat meat, because I like it. But I know that is selfish. I don't need to call vegans redditors and tell them to kill themselves. I can recognize when I'm acting selfishly and not necessarily following the most logical thing because humans are not always the most logical animals.
You don't see me getting triggered about veganism like people here get about antinatalism.
>suggests suffering exists
>argument for why it does will necessarily come down to ITS OBVIOUS THAT IT DOES BECAUSE PAIN AND BAD FEELINGS EXISTS
>will not be able to tell me why i must suffer simply because physical pain and bad feelings exist, no matter how long i allow him to pontificate about it
>expects me to take him seriously
All you're doing is create a miasma of pain and demanding everyone else come suffocate in it with you, with no valid reason why we should do so. I'm sorry, but unless you join Mainlander in concluding your statements instead of being a coward, I can't take you seriously.
antinatalism is merely the cancerous growth form of nihilism
no i will not surrender my life
no i will not roll around in depression like a coward
no i will not destroy people because i am selfish
no i will not be a weak-willed mongrel
Isn’t it strange people like the natalists in this thread have such an inflated ego they think you are doing all of this solely for them
>YOU CANT MAKE ME NOT HAVE KIDS
>YOU WONT DEMORALIZE ME!!!
like lmao who the fuck are you?
Cringe
>you MUST be as miserable as me
>it is INCONCEIVABLE that people don't hate existence
>any amount of suffering COMPLETELY OVERRIDES any positive experience you may have
>you WILL be called evil for not agreeing to murder unborn children because they may be as miserable as me
>I DID NOT CONSENT TO BE BORN
>MY PERSONAL CONSENT TO EVERY FACET OF REALITY IS THE SUPREME LAW OF THE UNIVERSE