Medieval Hungary was more interesting than France or England, yet this board seems to know little or nothing about it.
Medieval Hungary thread
Medieval Hungary was more interesting than France or England, yet this board seems to know little or nothing about it.
Well duh you can't find out about it from History Channel documentaries.
It was definitely not
It 100% was. There’s a reason I didn’t include Spain, Germany or Italy and that’s because they might actually have an argument.
Keep in mind that in 600 years, Hungary was only conquered successfully by the Mongols under Batu Khan and they survived, England was conquered by Vikings and Normans in one century
Hungary wasn't even conquered, they were just ass fucked by a very bad raid. It wasn't like Kievan Rus per say.
Kievan Rus submitted willingly to the Mongols, Hungary caused significant Mongol casualties in the battle against them, China, Baghdad and Russia were all conquered by the Mongols while they couldn't conquer Hungary and Hungary never paid tribute to the Mongols
if it wasn't for the Mongols, Hungary would've conquered the entire Balkans.
Hungary caused major damage to Ottomans during their campaign in Hungary and it remained the major battleground between the west and the Turks. Sure, England wasn't invaded but the Turks kind of had to go through like 5 countries to reach England. England never faced such a major thread
Odd claims. The Emperor made the future King Bela III his successor to the Byzantine throne and offered his daughter's hand in marriage to Bela until he had a son. Kingdom of Hungary won most major conflicts against Byzantium
Huh wonder what the ottomans are going to do in that map
Also Hungary had tonnes of foreign kings after arpads died out
Hungary was wiped off the map in the 1500s by the Ottoman Empire. England wasn't. And they were ruled by foreign kings starting with the 1300s.
Hungary was conquered my the emperor Manuel Comnenus in the 1150s. That event is honestly cooler than all of Hungarian history combined
No it wasn't. He planned to make the hungarian heir the next emperor resulting in a diplomatic union, but it never happened.
>France
Wasn't even a thing. France is a meme state created after the French Revolution, via the destruction and forceful assimilation of local cultures and history
>England
Medieval (and modern) English internal politics are like those Latin American soap operas. Everyone knows it's shit and forgettable, but it still has a loyal fanbase among the normies.
England's foreign policy however, tends to be super interesting, shame whenever Bongs suffer some minor defeat they retreat to their island and isolate themselves for a century, or two
>Wasn't even a thing. France is a meme state created after the French Revolution, via the destruction and forceful assimilation of local cultures and history
First of all France as a state evidently existed, the argument you're trying to bastardise is about the French nation but as for that:
Stop repeating dumbfuckery popular among French historiographers. Somehow this forceful assimilation worked well on Gascogne, but didn't work so well on Bretons or Elass-Lorraine Germans, but we'll just pretend that the French nation is a product of forced assimilation of perfectly distinct and separate identities that just happened to be administered by one government by sheer luck and its success or the lack of it has nothing to do with any kind of connections that may have been there beforehand.
>more interesting than England
True
>more interesting than France
Nope
Name one existential threat faced by the French during the Middle Ages
The French?
Too right
Other way around, dummy
medieval french history is boring unless it involves the english(100 years war, angevin empire)
This
Idiot.
Wrong tag on the second one, meant to tag the og post
>Angevins
>English
Based and reality pilled
Post some good (english language) sources about it then. I'd like to learn about it.
Pal Engel is the only one that matters
Is "The Realm of St Stephen: A History of Medieval Hungary, 895-1526" a good starting point?
Yes
Neat I'll give a download. If I like it I'll buy his book since it's not too expensive on Amazon.
You won’t find anything more comprehensive in English.
It certainly seems comprehensive given that date range and how big the book is. Honestly $30 on Amazon seems cheap for this.
That’s a quarter of what I paid for it and it’s maybe my most treasured book
This is the only negative review for it. Is the translation terrible like he says or is it still enjoyable?
It'd have to be really bad for me to be put off. You'd be surprised how badly written some academic stuff is.
I'm all too aware of that. You'd like to think people who deal with books and papers all the time would pick up on good writing habits after a while.
If you want good writing read Horthy’s autobiography if you want good history read Pal Engel.
Seriously though if you want stories you haven’t heard of Franz Joseph then you should read Horthy’s autobiography.
It’s not that bad, but it is very much academic. Probably a pop history fan like most Anglofrancoids.
Because Hungary isn't relevant in the modern day.
They’re constantly in western news.
no they aren't and if they are its only to complain about their PM
>if they are
Hungary is 100x more relevant than any of their neighbors including and especially Romania who are occupying half of Hungary.
100 x 0 is still 0
Right to self-determination is not occupation.
Palestine has no right to exist. Good to know.
The fuck are you talking about? What you're saying is more like Finland or Estonia doesn't have the right to exist, they should be part of Russia.
>OMG muh Hunyadi
>muh bathory
>muh zrinyi
>muh janos pannonius
>muh arpad and kurszan
>muh st istvan
>muh nagy lajos
>muh the black army
>muh bethlen gabor and the principality of erdely
>muh two mongol invasions
>muh kurucs
>muh huszaria
In the 14th century it was certainly up there in terms of power, being the top gold producer in Europe at the time, with export oriented economy and a strong army.
How did it unravel so hard after Mattias Corvinus?
Just baffling incompetence at Mohacs. A truly needless engagement compounded by reckless command of the army.
Without it, how would Hungarian history have progressed? It's often stated that they were well projected to be the hegemon of the Balkans with the diminishing of the Turks.
Hungary was going to be occupied during that war but the army didn’t need to be thrown into a pitched open field battle on the ground the Turks held. They may well have been conquered by the Turks but it should’ve been far more costly to the Turks.
These were my two posts about Mohacs.
I don’t know that much changes if the army had been spared at Mohacs. Hungary was overpowered by the Turks and they would’ve been forced into tribute like Wallachia or been made subject to the Austrians. The war was not one that could’ve been turned on the Turks without a Crusade.
>mohacs is why they fall not the complete lack of army at mohacs and the king breaking the previous tributary agreement
>Mohács
FYI, Mohács was just the endgame. While it's true that Hungary was declining after Matthias' death, the scarier thing was how the Ottomans were gaining power faster than expected. It also didn't help how the Black Army rebelled and had to be put down.
Everyone knew a catastrophe was at hand even before Mohács, since Hungary didn't receive military aid by the West. The mood among the nobles before the battle was pessimistic at best. We know this because there are plenty of letters, where nobles who got called into battle say their farewells to their family members and urge them to leave the country.
The battle was a suicide mission, an all-or-nothing attempt. While it is honorable, how nobles didn't run away from the battle and certain death and this lived up to medieval knighthood, chivalry only gets you this far. The real catastrophe was how the country lost most of the leadership and intelligentsia, those who were needed the most in the future political turmoil.
The real catastrophe was the king dying without an heir, starting a civil war in Hungary. If that didn't happen Hungary probably could have gotten away with becoming an Ottoman tributary instead of getting partitioned.
Which king are you talking about because this wasn’t something unprecedented in the Kingdom of Hungary? The difference as you touch on was the extermination of much of the nobility simultaneously.
And I certainly wasn’t discounting the Ottomans in any way in my description of Mohacs if you’ll read those 2 posts I made again. We basically said the same thing regarding the Ottomans in fact.
It got partitioned because the state collapsed and the translyvanian pretender cowardly allied himself with the ottomans than accept hapsburg dominion
>translyvanian pretender cowardly allied himself with the ottomans than accept hapsburg dominion
Szapolyai was a bigger nagger than that
>Ally with the Ottomans
>Make a deal with the Habsburgs: they get Transylvania after his death if they recognize him as king
>Habsburgs agree
>Szapolyai has a bastard son
>He goes back on his word
>Turks make his snotty-nosed brat their puppet
>Country divided into three parts
Fuck this cocksucker. A Habsburg Hungary united with Transylvania would have been far better at holding its ground against the Ottomans than a country ripped into three
A Hungarian (Orban) was literally instrumental to the Ottomans conquering Constantinople, think about that.
What's your point?
So fucking what, do you think we give a shit about the sob story of Byzantines?
>A Hungarian mercenary bombed our walls, muh Orthoshit Christianity's holy city has fallen waah
Who gives a fuck? Crusaders sacked Catholic cities and waged wars against the Byzantines too, not only the saracens. Venetians went full nagger, besieged Constantinople and turned it into a puppet kingdom, severely weakening it in the process. Byzantines had interfered in Hungarian internal politics 200 years earlier. Christian French attacked the Habsburgs, preventing them from liberating the Balkans from the Ottomans. 200 years later, Christian Bongs and French allied again with the Ottomans this time against the Russians.
We don't give a damn about Constantinople. It was just another piece on the chessboard of Europe that got knocked down.
>On their way back home, the Hungarians accomplished a military performance, which was never even tried by a land army in the history. Having no ships, boats or any kind of watercraft, on 29 June 900,[36] they "embarked" on a sea campaign against Venice. As Chronicon Sagornini of John the Deacon writes that with their horses and "leather ships" to attack first the cities from the coast, then also the city of Venice itself.[35] The "leather ship" here refer to an animal skin (goat, sheep, maybe cow) tied up to form something like a huge bota bag, filled with air, tied on their horses sides, which helped the warrior and his horse to float, with which the Hungarians and the warriors of other nomadic societies usually used to cross rivers.[36] They first attacked and burned the coastal towns like Equilio, Cittanova, Fine, Capo d'Argine, then tying the filled animal skins to their horses, they crossed the waters of the Lagoon of Venice, and sacked the island town of Chioggia, which was a part of the Dogado (homeland of the Republic of Venice).[35] Then on the day of the martyrdom of Saint Peter and Saint Paul (29 June), on their "leather ships", they tried to enter Rialto and Malamocco, but before they reached the islands, on the place called Albiola the doge of Venice Pietro Tribuno met them with the Venetian war fleet, forcing them to retreat.[35] Although they lost this unusual sea battle, the Hungarians achieved something what was never done by a land army: attacking islands lying in the sea. And although the attack from 29 June was unsuccessful, they succeeded in the attack on the island of Chioggia. This attack was not a violation of the agreement with Berengar, because at that time Venice was not part of the Italian kingdom, but was an autonomous republic under Byzantine influence.[43]
If that isn’t the most chad shit I’ve ever heard god damn
>France
Nah, France is quite interesting.
>England
The most overrated history of any nation.
>The most overrated history of any nation.
How?
Because burgers are obsessed with it (since they're just feral englishmen)
To this day I'm upset that neither Matias nor Hunyadi were able to keep shit together long enough for more decent campaigns against the Ottomans. They both proved they could win against them, and yet the fate of Hungary was never changed.
Two Romanians couldn't save a kingdom of hungypsies
>indobros...
oh no no no
How come so few Magyars changed tbe langauge of Hungary and left so many larpers? Battle of pressburg was cool btw
only ones who could beat the HVNGARIANS was their cousins from mongolia?
>feudalism but not really, also WE ROMANS NOW
>more interesting than development of absolutism and parliamentary democracy
>look up Hunyadi on wiki
>It's full of citations that he was of "Romanian stock"
>Suspiciously too much
Sus?
AMOGUS
No one cares about gypsies. Also they got annihilated by Turks
I'll bite, in what is it more interesting?
As I mentioned, neither France nor England faced a threat like the Mongols or Ottomans. The Norman Conquest doesn’t even compare.
The stakes were always much lower
And? Why would that make them more interesting?!
Why would it be more interesting than two countries that had to invent fictional characters like Arthur, Robin Hood or Joan just to cope?
Joan existed
>this is what anglos perceive to be an existential threat
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Culloden
>Did you hear about the thoughtful Scotsman who was heading out to the pub? He turned to his wee wife before leaving and said, ‘Jackie – put your hat and coat on lassie.’
>She replied, ‘Awe Iain that’s nice – are you taking me to the pub with you?’
>‘Nah, I’m just switching the central heating off while I’m out.’
>Dougal was a typical Scot. His wife Janet had just died and he wanted to place the least expensive death notice. He went to the newspaper office and wrote on the lodgement from, “Janet died.”
>The clerk explained that there was a minimum charge and he could have five words. Dougal added three more words: “Janet died, Toyota for sale.”
>Alisdair Biggar, a Scotsman, applied to join the New York City police force.
>The inspector glared at him and asked, ‘How would you disperse a large, unruly crowd?’
>‘Well,’ replied Alisdair thoughtfully, ‘I’m no too sure how ye do it here in New York, but in Aberdeen we just pass the hat around, and they soon begin to shuffle off.’
Bump
Kingdom of Hungary was so Slavic that German chroniclers in the high medieval ages refered to it as a Slavic country and in middle of 18th century it was said in Diderot's Encyclopedia that "Magyar language was a Slavic dialect and therefore related to languages of Bohemia, Poland and Russia." In the year 1787 only 29% of Kingdom of Hungary were Magyars. All you need to know about Kingdom of Hungary but Magyars won't tell you that.
>Diderot's Encyclopedia
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/d/did?type=simple&rgn=full+text&q1=magyar&cite1=&cite1restrict=author&cite2=&cite2restrict=author&Submit=Search
impressive, it took 20 whole seconds to prove you are full of shit
http://diderot.alembert.free.fr/H.html
Use google translate if you need
Or before you come up with another excuse.
Meanwhile the Byzantines called Hungary "Turkia" and believed they were Turkic speakers. Neither Germans nor Greeks could get it right, they were clueless just like current westerners are clueless about Hungarian history
>some wild steppe churkas history
>interesting
Pick one.
Hungary: survived Mongol invasions
England: conquered by pic related
Write your History in English if you want English speakers to know of it.
Good point. I noticed Hungarian history is very lacking in English forms, the English wiki says very little, probably because very few Hungarians speak English and are interested in translating to English. But even Bulgarian history is much more available in English than Hungarian history, not sure why this is to be honest. Like King Geza II defeated a major Byzantine invasion of Hungary and there is no Wikipedia article of the battle
From what I’ve gathered Hungarian histories are usually translated into German. Pal Engel himself is a German speaker.
Also most of the primary sources are in Latin, not Magyar.