>make contact with Europeans

>make contact with Europeans
>they want some of the huge tracts of land you claim ownership of, but are doing nothing with
>Euros offers to buy it, asked to name their price
>”ugh, a few bowls of hot oatmeal and some beads I guess”
>””…ok”
>Leaders sell off their entire peoples future for a few trinkets for themselves
>Euros take the unused land and make amazing towns, cities, and farms out of them
>they become powerful enough to challenge their old world overlords and fight an epic war for independence as their own country
>years go by
>THE WHITE MAN STOLE MY PEOPLES LAND! ITS LE SACRED AND YOUR NOT SUPPOSED TO DO ANYTHING OTHER THAN LIVE LIKE STONEAGE HUNTER GATHERS ON IT! YEAH WE ALL GLEEFULLY TRADED FOR AMAZING EURO TECHNOLOGY,BUT WE WERE TRICKED INTO DOING IT! THOSE CITIES ARE OURS GIVE IT BACK!
I know this seems like a troll post, but when is the narrative going to change from this story about evil and scheming Whites tricking the noble, yet naive Indians out of their land? The reality is that their leaders were short sighted and selfish idiots who sold them out.

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  1. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    The smallpox crap is fake.
    Anyway the genocide of the native Americans was unavoidable but it led to the creation of the worst country in the world.

  2. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    they just lost. once upon a time they were allowed to lose with some dignity as a noble people who couldn't keep up their resistance. valiant and doomed, not a bad way to be remembered all things considered.

    but then the story became this way to carve a new front of the culture war in what were once stable, peaceful and very effective new world democracies.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      Early American elections were decided by alcohol. America got obliterated in 1812. It had a hard time beating Spain as late as 1900. I wouldn't call it effective.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        >hard time beating Spain
        >Kick them out of all their colonies in under a year
        Yeah sure schizo

  3. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Probably the most unsettling aspect of early colonial American history for normies as it relates to Native Americans is how many individuals and tribes collaborated with colonists. In Maryland, for example, the colonists got their shit handed to them by the Susquehannock who the latter had a lot of help from New Sweden (Delaware), and it took a peace treaty and the threat of the Iroquois to calm everything down. Disease, along with these tribes getting new fun weapons from the English/French/Dutch/Swedes and using them on each other initially wrecked them, well before blankets and forced relocation on foot had anything to do with their decline.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      The smallpox crap is fake. Literally any mention of disease means you're mentally moronic.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        Set me straight, then, replyguy. Much of the defensiveness in this over the question of human devastation driven by disease seems couched in this bizarre idea that European new world settlers were these pristine articles of health.

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          The disease crap is fake. This is obvious. There's no complicated answer it's just something jared diamond made up.
          In reality libs just killed everyone and there were like 20 million people in all of South America. 50 million was the population in 1900.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            I am genuinely curious as to if there's any serious scholarship that challenges the disease angle. I have yet to find anything that isn't compelling beyond the body count from it not being as high as modern tribal leaders and narrative-driven academics make it out to be.

            >Probably the most unsettling aspect of early colonial American history for normies as it relates to Native Americans is how many individuals and tribes collaborated with colonists.
            What's so unsettling about that?

            While colonists might have seen all the various Indian tribes as being part of one big group, the Indians themselves did not. To the Indians, different tribes were like different countries, some allied to one another, while others were enemies. From their perspective, it wasn't some shocking betrayal to ally with colonists against a rival tribe, it was just prudent foreign policy.

            I personally don't find it to be unsettling. As I said, most normal people who have no understanding of these dynamics most certainly do. I've encountered it countless times.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >am genuinely curious as to if there's any serious scholarship that challenges the disease angle.
            The fact you would even believe it is mentally moronic. No, there is no scholarship because there's the disease angle is obviously fake.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            I mean, I can tell you are a moron looking for bait because you said Jared Diamond is the man who came up with a Narrative that goes AT LEAST as back to the very fricking foundations of modern world history with people like William McNiel saying it. Its also just like not a fricking secret in any way. There's so little to benefit from this narrative it literally just is like - New World would have been harder to take over like other arts of the world, MAYBE, had this not happened. You can even see that shit happening in the sources "Ey yo Tenichatillan sure seemed to have a lot more people then it does now" "Ey Machu Pichu seems like you have a lot fewer people than you clearly did, funny that?" Like

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >Gee I wonder why all these stunning cities are half deserted
            >Wonder why the natives don't seem to have many old people or children running around.
            >There's so much land! It's almost deserted, I wonder why we haven't run into any people out here
            >Almost as if there's some kind of natural disaster wiping 90% of them out across the continent.
            >Nah

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      >Probably the most unsettling aspect of early colonial American history for normies as it relates to Native Americans is how many individuals and tribes collaborated with colonists.
      What's so unsettling about that?

      While colonists might have seen all the various Indian tribes as being part of one big group, the Indians themselves did not. To the Indians, different tribes were like different countries, some allied to one another, while others were enemies. From their perspective, it wasn't some shocking betrayal to ally with colonists against a rival tribe, it was just prudent foreign policy.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        It was just libs killing everyone. The smallpox crap is fake, the thread is already descending into stupidity.
        Libs died of malaria which was already there.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        I guarantee this would be a shock to the average normie. I’ve gotten into discussions with seemingly intelligent people before and they said shit like the idea of war was complete new to Indians because they all just traded and shared with each other.

        The average Ukraine flag/“we believe in science” person views native Americans as elves.

  4. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Wrong. The territory within the pink outline was promised to the Lakota, but the perfidious Burger found gold in the Black Hills and annexed most of the Lakota land without permission.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      Not only that but libs were asked to leave Jamestown and were never supposed to be there.

  5. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Even if they managed to btfo settlers, they would be doomed by diseases.

    Look at nowadays natives in SouthAmerica. No diseases, and they are already threatening chilean and argentinian modern state before even entangling completely with narco weapon-drug trade.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      It's obvious the smallpox crap is fake.
      https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/45111/did-smallpox-emerge-in-1580
      You'll claim this doesn't prove anything. Because you're mentally moronic.
      I'm not exaggerating, his literally is too stupid to read. There is no point in your replies, they are just stupidity.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        I mean the replies to the comment in the link you posted pretty much debunks your schizoposting
        Also, meds. Now.

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          Well done jidf.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Calm down, Terry
            Don't you have an OS to program?

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      This. There's a reason why natives today provoke a good ammount of seethe to their neighbours in SA.

      Really makes you think how when disease factor stops being a thing, natives become an actual threat now.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        That's the entire reason jared diamond introduced the smallpox crap.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        Native Americans were very fractious and primitive societies that were unable to support massive populations which is why they were so small.

        You can make all the excuses in the world for why this was, but they were essentially Stone Age villages competing with highly advanced and technology superior neighbors for control of this continent and they were doomed to lose that struggle.

        For as cruel as this outlook is, Andrew Jackson was right when he dealt with the various tribes not as equal foreign parties, but as subjects to the domino and will of the United States.

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          The actual reason is density but whatever.
          This is the only time race works. Natives were in warm areas with no resources. Libs got tons of foreign aid and England gave them iron.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Didn’t read schizo

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          There's no excuse to make. You just have to look that the facts:
          -Natives in the past + disease = Death
          -Natives today = Increasing in proportion and invading settler cities.

          Another thing is how the only states capable of antagonizing the natives are in northamerica, while south america are doomed to choose between narco alliances and a generalized military crisis, or accept natives over into their administration/government to try decreasing any kind of seccessionist movements (what they are doing rn).

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            The smallpox crap is fake. All these replies prove is that his is a moron board.
            100% of your argument hinges on the smallpox crap.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            accept natives over time*

  6. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    They were tricked. They didn't understand European concepts of land ownership and thought they were just agreeing to the equivalent of grazing rights rather than permanently giving away massive amounts of territory that the Europeans would then ban them from returning to.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      This is a massive cope. Anyone from a European colony who even accidentally stepped into their land would have had their brains ripped out of their skulls. They fully understood the concept of my land/your land.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        >his is a massive cope. Anyone from a European colony who even accidentally stepped into their land would have had their brains ripped out of their skulls. They fully understood the concept of my land/your land
        And none of it was Europeans land so they did the capitalist thing and attacked Europeans.
        Nobody in the past was dumb enough to think private property existed.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      Not really. Libs were asked to leave jamestown then refused. Then natives attacked and libs fought back.
      France had scalping laws and paid to kill natives which gave it most of the west. Then america bought the west as a single block.
      Private property didn't exist until 1950 and nobody was moronic enough to care about property. California natives were genocided in the 19th century and the rest were killed by French or whoever was there.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        >his is a massive cope. Anyone from a European colony who even accidentally stepped into their land would have had their brains ripped out of their skulls. They fully understood the concept of my land/your land
        And none of it was Europeans land so they did the capitalist thing and attacked Europeans.
        Nobody in the past was dumb enough to think private property existed.

        If you went on Indian land and were invited to, they would rip your flesh off and ritualistically burn your corpse. Your hippie bullshit that they didn’t even understand ownership of land is pure boomer/new left revisionism.

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          That's a good thing, they killed libs. Honestly I wish natives would rebel now. But libs already killed them and unfortunately all we have are $5 Indians.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >schizo posting
            Reminder that schitzo are all mentally moronic (they have on average a sub 90 iq)

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Excellent work jidf.
            Anyway that guy said that natives would kill libs, which was my point, then he acted like he was disagreeing with more or something. My entire point is that the smallpox crap is fake and libs killed everyone.
            Most of it was in a handful of wars like the Powhatan and yamasee, which natives initiated to defend property. Then the French took the entire western US.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Pls take your meds and lay off the harmone blockers

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            I take HARM LIBERALS blockers to resist my unstoppable urge to HARM LIBERALS

  7. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    For one, a lot of that land was being used, but there were different land management practices. For example, 1493 as a book talked about the land management practices of the Powhatan Indians around Jamestown, who of course didn't have plow animals since there weren't any in the New World. So there wasn't any reason to have monoculture in their fields, and instead they had a mixture of crops, essentially like gardens, which looked wild to Europeans who were used to clear cut monoculture fields.

    Or burned the forests quite consistently, so that again, voyagers who came talked about how lacking in underbrush they were, how wide and easily traversable the forests were, etc. Not natural forests in the slightest (there is actually some possible climate theories that the global cooling of the Little Ice Age was in part because the Indians died en masse from diseases and couldn't burn the forests, which expanded and soaked up CO2 from the atmosphere).

    But this gets back to traditional land practices, in that communal and collective land and different ideas of land usage meant that they didn't really understand what the Europeans meant by just buying it. Furthermore, there was often the problem in that they were dealing with small bands of Europeans, and didn't realize that "holy shit, Britain is going to be send 50,000 Tyrones and Cleetuses here next year to replace us."

    There was also just simple trickery, like for example the Pennsylvania colony expanded its borders by agreeing with the Indians that they would buy the amount of land a man could walk in a day, and then they set up a fricking relay race to sprint as fast as possible and got three times as much as the Indians thought, lmao.

    Not that the Indians were perfect in any way, there were plenty of bloodthirsty wars and violence, but you're going full on the other way with we did nothing wrong.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      >There was also just simple trickery, like for example the Pennsylvania colony expanded its borders by agreeing with the Indians that they would buy the amount of land a man could walk in a day, and then they set up a fricking relay race to sprint as fast as possible and got three times as much as the Indians thought, lmao.
      Lol

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      >was in part because the Indians died en masse from diseases
      The disease crap is fake. Tenth time you've mentioned it.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      >There was also just simple trickery, like for example the Pennsylvania colony expanded its borders by agreeing with the Indians that they would buy the amount of land a man could walk in a day, and then they set up a fricking relay race to sprint as fast as possible and got three times as much as the Indians thought, lmao.
      Reminds me of the Carthage foundation myth

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      Most intelligent and nuanced non-schizo post in the thread.
      Also nice touch mentioning the Little Ice Age in there too, most normies don't realized how impactful that shit was

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        It's a idiotic post with smallpox crap.
        But because you're mentally moronic it's the best post for you.

  8. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    European settlers just did the same shit natives had been doing for millennia. They migrated, settled in the frontier, were attacked, fought back, made treaties, broke treaties, massacred their enemies, drove rivals off their land, just as every native tribe had done since time immemorial. The vast majority of conflict was small-scale tit-for-tat skirmishes and raids with the occasional massacre just as it always had been. The only thing that set it apart from the past was that one 'tribe' was more organized, more fertile, more technologically advanced than all the others and wasn't plagued by smallpox, so instead of the cycle of violence just continuing forever like it had in the past, that 'tribe' came out on top and managed to end the cycle once and for all.

    It's amazing how distorted the picture has become in just the last few decades, with normies and leftists genuinely believing that there was some sort of massive holocaust where millions of natives were rounded up and killed, when the actual native death toll of the American Indian wars was more like 60,000 over the course of a century. And the bizarre thing is that half a century ago there was a far more nuanced understanding of this stuff in popular culture, so that you'll actually get a far better understanding of the period watching some old Western like The Searchers than you would from visiting a museum or attending a university lecture or something.

  9. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Who was in the wrong here?

  10. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    >Leaders sell off their entire peoples future for a few trinkets for themselves
    Imagine if they wanted things like machinery

  11. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    >make contact with Europeans
    Who are you talking about, moron? These are continents with vastly different groups living different lifestyles.

  12. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    >>they want some of the huge tracts of land you claim ownership of, but are doing nothing with
    offers to buy it, asked to name their price
    >>”ugh, a few bowls of hot oatmeal and some beads I guess”
    >>””…ok”
    sell off their entire peoples future for a few trinkets for themselves
    take the unused land and make amazing towns, cities, and farms out of them
    nice story but it didn't happen

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      Manhattan was literally bought and sold for $25 worth of beads and provisions. Even adjusted for inflation, that's still like $600 for an entire island.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        They actually lost money in the investment because it took so long to develop but they had nothing else to do.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        They actually lost money in the investment because it took so long to develop but they had nothing else to do.

        it was like $15000 in modern day currency
        also the natives that sold them the island didn't control it, it was pretty much a scam

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          >Hey, can we settle this island? We'll pay you for it
          >Uh... Sure I guess? We'll let you settle there. We tend to get shot at when we go there anyway...

  13. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Consider the following:
    >You see a cow
    >You can milk the cow and get free milk
    >Do you milk the cow or do you pass of free milk?

  14. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    I like how you're going off of your 3rd grade texas textbook. You think all the land was just peacefully bought? you are so naive.

  15. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    >>”ugh, a few bowls of hot oatmeal and some beads I guess”
    Lol did they really?

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      Yes, actually lol. But In their minds they weren't really trading the land, just rights to *use* the land. I.e.
      >We won't shoot at you if you set up tents and hunt here, and you do the same, cool? Cool.
      The idea of exclusive and proprietary land ownership in the native world was simply foreign. In the context of the above, those beads and other trinkets we're merely gifts from a foreign tribe wishing to peacefully coexist. As opposed to violently coexist as most of the tribes did back then. They never imagined the euros would clear-cut whole forests and shit like they did

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        I agree they didnt have the same idea of property or property rights but the idea that the average native American tribe was fine with other groups just coming into territory or ranges they considered theirs is comical.
        The Iroquois for example were constantly fighting off others around their territory near the eastern great lakes with many genocides being carried out against other groups throughout their history, and the moment the started trading in earnest with Europeans of all stipes for firearms and horses they went to town and completely exterminated or forcefully integrated every other tribe in the region over the course of a few decades.
        Another good example is the origins of many of the mid west plains tribes that through oral and genetic history weren't even native to the region and had been forced out of their lands to the far north and were luckily enough to pick up horse husbandry and horse riding as they migrated south allowing them to survive on what amounts to the North American steppe. Same thing goes for the Apache who were small scale agriculturist with a history form getting pushed of their land until they adopted the horse, their culture changed drastically they became nomadic and warlike and for the next few centuries were the primary thing blocking further expansion our of New Spain (Mexico) across the desert that is now Arizona, New Mexico, and eastern Texas

  16. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Libtards cannot refute this: https://youtu.be/iVqQosyOpg4?t=58

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