Castration and Mastectomy are, it's 16 in Scotland, 17 in England and 18 in Wales and Northern Ireland (and Northern Ireland doesn't even have any clinics that do gender affirming mastectomies)
16 is the age of consent etc so it's not quite the same as being a minor
>masectomies on minors
I don't get this.
Like yeah, MtF need to start hormones ASAP because male puberty turns you into a disgusting ogre, so it's a race against time. I can understand why people would support minors starting transitioning in this situation. But if you're AFAB, why do you need to cut your tits off at 14? Just wait four years, there's literally no rush. And TERFs, being man hating feminists, only care about trans issues as they involve women. Stop letting little girls remove their tits and 90% of anti-trans activism dies overnight. No one cares about faggy little boys cutting their dicks off.
From what I've read from FTMs, unless they have a weaker puberty, they seem to get just as dysphoric over their bodies as MTFs. T seems to be the more aggressive hormone but it's not like E doesn't make a plethora of changes of its own, especially to the skeleton.
Idk I kinda agree about most surgeries tho, unless it's to prevent relying on potentially harmful blockers, they should all be over 18 imo. But hrt just simply should be available to (carefully screened and informed) teens regardless of AGAB.
Because having two balloons hanging off your chest, and growing in size for several years, when you don't want them is really fucking bad for your mental health.
>Because having two balloons hanging off your chest, and growing in size for several years, when you don't want them is really fucking bad for your mental health.
given the irreversibility and potential for regret, it's still reasonable to make them wait til 18. they can wear a binder or whatever while waiting
HRT should have no age restrictions, but surgery should be 18+
>they can get implants if they regret it.
implants don't look, move, or feel like real tits
>binding for years fucked up my ribcage and made my tits saggy
I 100% believe binding is also a really shitty solution for a lot of people, but given all the trade-offs I just feel like making surgeries 18+ is still the best compromise
you also have to consider the base rate of trans people is about 0.5% of the population. HRT for minors is important because HRT is age-dependent. surgeries aren't, though
A big reason for targetting masectomies is FtMs have a dramatically higher detransition rate then MtFs, and mascetomies are a relatively simple and cheap procedure to perform. Women are also much much more likely to transition from social pressure rather than genuine dysphoria, doing irreparable harm in a short time span.
Unironically, this is the fault of Theyfabs and Ftfemboys who treat gender like a fashion trend and make it seem like there are zero consequences to becoming a "boy". Girls with slight autism or bipolarism are getting caught up in the trend and not realizing all these "boys" they see on TikTok are literal girls not on T and never had top surgery. Queue upwards of 40% regret later in FtMs soon after.
you have to understand that this isn't an afab vs amab thing. this is an emerican thing. ideas are targeting what they think is a girl and changing them. you also have to understand that most people involved now what they are doing and win over the situation. is just some outlires that are not.
>FtMs have a dramatically higher detransition rate then MtFs
there is no evidence for this but your bias. in fact, the largest survey on transgenders reported that MtFs have a higher dretrans rate
Suggests that youngshit FTMs are at lower risk for detransing as well: > The 4-year gender-affirming hormone continuation rate was 70.2% (95% CI, 63.9-76.5). Transfeminine individuals had a higher continuation rate than transmasculine individuals 81.0% (72.0%-90.0%) vs 64.4% (56.0%-72.8%). People who started hormones as minors had higher continuation rate than people who started as adults 74.4% (66.0%-82.8%) vs 64.4% (56.0%-72.8%).
I also wonder if switching to DIY [for transfemmes mostly] is a factor here.
Detransitioning is always about regret - either because they don't pass or because they realize they aren't actually trans. I'd imagine youngshits are a lot more satisfied with their transition because it gives more hope for passing.
But rate of detransitoning regardess of time onset is still much higher for FtMs. Women either need more protection or criticism for their gender choices.
6 days ago
Anonymous
>But rate of detransitoning regardess of time onset is still much higher for FtMs. Women either need more protection or criticism for their gender choices.
But that's misogyny.
6 days ago
Anonymous
>completely ignores the other study with a larger and more varied base of trannies that implies otherwise
waow
6 days ago
Anonymous
Any social statistics that gives near universal support for trans experiences is bias. It's statistically impossible for 99% agreeablity of significance in a social study, yet it happens all the time in reports ot transitioning. It's a bias and flawed methods because social sciences are dominated by feminist and LGBT ideology that don't want to risk showing potential flaws in their progessivism. .
6 days ago
Anonymous
>Detransitioning is always about regret - either because they don't pass or because they realize they aren't actually trans.
actually no, look it up, it's overwhelmingly because they were ostracized or abused or even injured for their choice
only observes trannies with military medical records, has twice the amount of ftms as mtfs so you cannot even compare the "detrans" rates, and doesn't even account for if they continued hrt elsewhere. i would be counted as "detransing" for this study because i simply ghosted my doctor and started DiY
>gender dysphoria is not an ideology
If Genders is a social construct then gender dysphoria is objectively an ideology, as your dysphoria is rooted in your dissatisfaction with contemporary social norms.
Your skeleton is not a social norm but your belief that your skeleton does not align with your gender is a refection of what you consider to be social norms.
If you were raised on an isolated mountain top and never told about the opposite gender, would your skeleton still give you feelings of dysphoria?
7 days ago
Anonymous
Uhm... Sure. Whatever. Humans rely on their external environment to contextualise their internal environment. There's a very good chance I would expetience dysphoria if I were raised on the deserted island, but wouldn't be able to recognise it for what it is.
But it's kind of a retarded premise, because it ignores the basics of human nature, which involve learning from others. And I learned from seeing the people around me, the objective reality that there's physiological differences regardless of the gender construct
7 days ago
Anonymous
"I'm mentally ill" (derogatory)
7 days ago
Anonymous
Good talk! Shall we do this again next week, same time?
7 days ago
Anonymous
>There's a very good chance I would expetience dysphoria if I were raised on the deserted island, but wouldn't be able to recognise it for what it is.
If this is true then gender is innate and not a social construct. Why else would you be feeling dysphoria over a "social construct" that you have not been exposed to?
7 days ago
Anonymous
I mean I experience dysphoria primarily over my sexual characteristics, not really over my genderual characteristics.
Idk just a thought
7 days ago
Anonymous
gender roles are a social and cultural construct, gender identity is innate and in the vast majority of people tied to their biological sex (going by typical markers like karyotype) but in some people does not line up, and in all of these things you will find that they are largely binary in the extreme but exist as axes of possible variations between those two points with a kind of inverted bell curve at either end
7 days ago
Anonymous
That's not really anything to do with gender though
If you feel dysphoria over your physical characteristics and transition to alleviate it, does that make you a man with gender dysphoria who's trying to modify his body to cope, or does it make you a woman, or does it make you something else?
The answer to all three is "yes" because none of these are more valid than the other, they are all ideological positions surrounding the concept of gender.
7 days ago
Anonymous
Hmmm. Idk, I'm not a man tho. Nothing ideological about it. I'm not and never have been a man. Male, sure, but not a man. Doesn't seem like you'd understand
7 days ago
Anonymous
>they are all ideological positions surrounding the concept of gender
no, they attempts at resolving a linguistic and medical categorization failure with semantics
The semantics issue is tied to the gendered classification system
What we consider to be a "man" is a cultural construct distinct from male. TERFs consider you to be a man, you consider yourself to be a woman. TERFs maintain the position that any adult human male is a man regardless of what medical interventions he has or however he feels about his gender. We'd be more inclined to say a person assigned male at birth identifies as a woman and so is one (or alternatively a male diagnosed with gender dysphoria can use medicine to transition into being a woman).
Neither stance actually fundamentally clashes because they are based on different ideological understandings of what a man and a woman are. You are not saying you are a woman in a way that a TERF understands what a woman is, they are not saying you are a man in a way that you understand a man to be. The issue is that these ideologies then impact society which generally has expectations around gendered spaces, and the battleground is which understanding of gender is the one society should adopt (the answer imo is some sort of compromise between the two)
7 days ago
Anonymous
>they are based on different ideological understandings of what a man and a woman are
look I hear your points about the language and its impact on society but you can't just slap a word on something lmao this is not and never has been about one ideology versus another, it's about an ideology being formed that is against some people existing because "ick" and religion
7 days ago
Anonymous
A lot of the "TERFs" aren't against trans people existing though. They'll even say you should gender people by their preferred pronouns to be polite and they should be supported in accessing gender dysphoria treatments and free to live and dress as they see fit, but that they just don't agree with them being in certain gendered spaces or categories (e.g. all-women shortlists, women's sports, women's homelessness shelters).
That goes back to their understanding of what woman is, which is adult human female, and then that trans women are men who desire to live socially as women and should be respected within reason.
This is at odds with trans women who feel they should be treated in line with what they understand women to be, which is anyone whose gender identity is that of a woman, and so they should not be excluded from these categories.
The "liberal TERF" belief is not quite the same as being against trans people existing, it's merely incorporating trans people into their understanding of gender vs going along with trans people's understanding of gender.
The rise in hatred towards the trans community - far worse than it was 5-6 years ago - is partially a function of trying to square the circle and force one understanding of gender while acting obstructive to people with the other understanding of gender. That's what the right wing have latched onto to stoke up hatred.
7 days ago
Anonymous
>trying to square the circle and force one understanding of gender while acting obstructive to people with the other understanding of gender
you sure do use a lot of words to defend a tiny minority of TERFs "just" saying that trannies need to be denied access to any kind of public or gendered spaces or "just" demanding that laws be written to make their existence in public spaces illegal while the vocal religious-fundamentalist-funded anti-feminist majority of them are literally calling for us to be denied medical care or our lives across the board
7 days ago
Anonymous
and also maybe people see things like this and are rightfully angered. for some reason systematic child abuse really tends to piss people off regardless of who does it. the agenda is no longer about individual rights but about imposing the dogmas of progressivist ideology, people who are shrill and sanctimonious and cry genoicide! nazi! christians do it too! at the slightest disagreement. but really they are not being backed by science but by powerful billionaires and powerful medical industry.
>In a slick video released on Facebook with over one million views so far, a hyper-feminized/sexualized 8 year old boy (who some have compared to a drag version of JonBenét Ramsey) is featured partying in a hypersexual adult LGBT environment and telling kids watching that if their parents or friends do not support their desire to be drag (or trans), they need to get new parents and friends. As “Lactatia” speaks to his peers, while an all too happy host leers, bold text leaps out at the viewer saying “YOU NEED NEW PARENTS! YOU NEED NEW FRIENDS!”
https://www.studocu.com/row/document/university-of-nicosia/finance-managerial-accounting/synanon-transgender-this-is-an-essay-about-gender-issues-around-the-world-and-how-we-are-influenced/16420782
>Masked Antifa protesters show up brandishing weapons at Texas 'drag brunch' with kids
I don't think I made myself clear. I don't really consider myself a woman necessarily, maybe I will at some point, mayne not. But that doesn't matter. I am not a man. I know this to be true. Like I said nothing ideological about it. It's just how it is. I don't mind that other people think of me as a man. That's up to them. But my mind is not that of a man. Testosterone actively worked against the workings of my mind. This isn't about identity this is about truth, and the truth is that no matter what society thinks or tries to make me think, I am not a man
7 days ago
Anonymous
But anon, you are missing the point. "I am not a man" and "You are a man that thinks he is not a man" are both belief systems. Part of it has to do with what you understand a man to be. If you consider a man to be an adult human male, then you are a man. If you consider a man to be someone with a male gender identity, then you are not.
The rest of your post is you attempting to claim your position is objective truth, which is not, for there is no objective truth in a word that is being defined differently by different people.
>trying to square the circle and force one understanding of gender while acting obstructive to people with the other understanding of gender
you sure do use a lot of words to defend a tiny minority of TERFs "just" saying that trannies need to be denied access to any kind of public or gendered spaces or "just" demanding that laws be written to make their existence in public spaces illegal while the vocal religious-fundamentalist-funded anti-feminist majority of them are literally calling for us to be denied medical care or our lives across the board
>tiny minority of TERFs
No anon, the belief that "trans people should be free to live how they want, but also they should be treated as separate to cisgender people of their gender" is fairly widespread, people just don't tend to bring it up. Pic related for example a plurality of Brits agree trans women are women but a majority of Brits think trans women should not be allowed to compete in women's sports and where the British public are plurality supportive of trans women using changing rooms and toilets for their gender, they're plurality against this if the trans women is pre or non operative. This situation is very different from not wanting trans women to exist, and really is representative of that inbetween state I was alluding to ("trans women are women, but they're also males, and males and females need to be treated differently in some contexts").
The idea we should ban trans affirming healthcare is a minority - the focus is very much on trans affirming healthcare to CHILDREN, which is in-and-of itself a bit of a different conversation and there are trans people in this thread concurring that banning SRS in minors is a positive thing.
7 days ago
Anonymous
jesus christ shut the fuck up an opinion or a take is not a fucking SYSTEM
>No anon
YES anon I'm saying MOST TERFS FOLLOW THE PARTY LINE NOT THAT MOST BRITS ARE TERFS ARE YOU FUCKING RETARDED >the focus is very much on trans affirming healthcare to CHILDREN
which is conclusively demonstrated through peer-reviewed and accepted scientific analysis and the real-world clinical evidence-based care approved by all the actual bodies of practicing scientists and doctors to be safe, effective, and over 99% accurate in its diagnosis and application (in that there is a less than 1% regret or detrans rate and most of that is due to a lack of social acceptance)
6 days ago
Anonymous
>jesus christ shut the fuck up an opinion or a take is not a fucking SYSTEM
Yes it is anon. That's why some cultures had more than two genders. What we are seeing here is two subcultures that have their own ways of seeing and understanding gender, along with a wider culture that appears to have an understanding of gender that means trans women are simultaneously women in some contexts but not others (which is analogous to some of those third gender roles in other cultures)
6 days ago
Anonymous
objectively incorrect
what we are seeing is a group of people with identities being attacked by a group of intolerant regressives, and in your ardent defense of them through your ridiculous semantics/gymnastics around attempting to frame "both sides" as being rooted in some ideology or system you are more than simply complicit in the damage done
6 days ago
Anonymous
>people with identities
But anon the concept of identifying as a transgender woman is a relatively new one. Many people who are trans women today would have identified as "queens" a century ago, which in itself was not an identity that exactly fit into our understandings of cis and trans, and also overlapped with people who would now consider themselves to be cisgender men. In a different time and place perhaps mukhannathun would have been how they related to their identity.
While there have always been people that did not fit into a neat social categorisation of men and women, and indeed people assigned male at birth who felt most aligned to the identities and codes of behaviour displayed by the majority of those assigned female at birth, their understandings or ways of describing identities cannot be 1:1 mapped onto Western modern understandings.
Indeed it wasn't until fairly recently we saw the emergence of "I am a transfeminine person" or "I am a non binary trans woman" whereas perhaps ten or twenty years ago those people would have seen themselves as being a transgender woman, and that's without even considering something relatively innocuous like "I am a butch trans woman".
Someone's identity is inherently informed by the society around it and the cultural norms they are informed by. Many trans women will relate the first time they purchased feminine clothing as affirming, or being forced to cut their hair by uncaring parents as dysphoria inducing. But that's only because our culture sees those items as gendered in one particular way, whereas in another time and place it could be that men are expected to have long hair and wear flowing draperies while women had an entirely different mode of being. Nobody's identity is inherently objective, and neither is anyone's way of understanding it.
What you are considering to be damage done is also inimically linked into this.
6 days ago
Anonymous
congratulations on your expertly and most verbosely executed complete and total diversion from my point, once again
it does not fucking matter what the identity is
6 days ago
Anonymous
But it does anon. Because the precept we are seeing here is that trans women are women vs trans women are sometimes women vs trans women are men.
What the identity means, and the consequences of that identity, are what is at stake here. And there will be disagreement amongst trans people if a non-passing hon who came out two days ago and is pre-everything is as valid as a gigapassoid stealth trans woman and has equal a right to access women's spaces. While we may choose to label that as merely internalised transphobia, it is just another hallmark that there is no immutable objective reality of "trans women ARE women" or "trans women ARE NOT women" but rather a plurality of voices within a broad church.
Just because we may feel like women, does that make us women? Just because we look like women, does that make us women? What does being a woman mean? What does it mean to "look like" a woman? What is a woman?
That very last question is the most ideological of all.
6 days ago
Anonymous
I personally feel that you and people with your perspective on this issue are ridiculously unhelpfully trying to turn a series of practical egalitarian considerations into nebulous philosophical quandaries for the sake of denying something that seems newly accepted or popular in communication/media or simply unfamiliar to the vast majority of people by sheer statistics and entirely in line with a predisposition towards religious and nationalistic world viewpoints
6 days ago
Anonymous
I think the wider culture is actually split.
Cons seem to agree with the tranny definition of gender but also oppose it. This is why their war is focused on trannies and limiting tranny things like HRT.
Libs and leftists seem to agree with the theyfab definition of gender and it's why they haven't combated the cons that forecefully. They view the tranny definition of gender as BDD
6 days ago
Anonymous
It's not a belief system though anon. It's just observations. Men have mistaken me as one of their own for all my life, and it's given me quite some insight into how their minds work. And they work differently from mine. The definition of "man" doesn't matter here, it won't make a difference unless you use some outrageous definition like "a featherless biped". Under any normal human definition of a man, you will find a majority of individuals who do not think like I do. Or rather, I don't think like them.
And like I said, this is to the point that the very male hormone itself causes brain activity that clashes with my own. A man's thoughts and feelings, brought about by testosterone, that felt like they weren't my own. This goes beyond beliefs. Beyond your question of what a man is. You may consider me one, but inside, I am not.
But I already thought you wouldn't understand, and it seems I might have been right. But that might be a good thing. Nobody should be at war with themselves
6 days ago
Anonymous
>pic
"PENIS=RAPE REEEEEEEE"
7 days ago
Anonymous
>they are all ideological positions surrounding the concept of gender
no, they attempts at resolving a linguistic and medical categorization failure with semantics
7 days ago
Anonymous
desert island meme is retarded. if i were born without legs in isolation i'd think having no legs was normal. hell, it somehow took me 15 years to figure out that being legally blind in one eye wasn't normal, and maybe i should get glasses
damn wtf have I sparked in this thread
this is why I was toying with the idea of calling it 'sex dysphoria' vs 'gender dysphoria', to differentiate between the dichotomy of physical (sex) dysphoria, and social (gender) dysphoria, but went with the latter for clarity (everyone knows what GD is) while remaining succinct >your dysphoria is rooted in your dissatisfaction with contemporary social norms
my dysphoria is rooted in dissatisfaction with my sexual morphology
more-so a manifestation of higher consciousness, dissatisfaction with evolutionary constructs, rather than social constructs
social roles or norms can be explained as a realization of those evolutionary constructs
while mutually inclusive to a degree, they're both distinct issues, yet in being broadly summarized by the term 'gender dysphoria', the nuance becomes muddied, with the focus being purely on 'gender = social manifestation'
I see it as: dissatisfaction with evolutionary constructs, which manifests subsequently as dissatisfaction with social constructs, which are realizations of the former in nature
Honestly, to just butt in for a moment, even if we would all be on that same page here:
The article's use of "gender ideology" is still something to roll your eyes at and sigh. Because by your logic, they aren't eliminating gender ideology, just enforcing their own. No matter how you put it, the people calling it "gender ideology" usually aren't using it in good faith.
So I don't know why we should engage with the idea that our experiences are just an ideology either
it's not wrong to state there's 'ideology' in that, I have beliefs and ideals as to the right and ability to transition between sex (not insisting it's binary btw, one can go anywhere on the sliding scale), and have society respect and realize that (which manifests as the social ideologue side), I suppose >they aren't eliminating gender ideology, just enforcing their own
kek, idd
that is correct. If gender were a social construct then gd would be caused by dissatisfaction with contemporary gender norms. But gender is not a social construct.
damn wtf have I sparked in this thread
this is why I was toying with the idea of calling it 'sex dysphoria' vs 'gender dysphoria', to differentiate between the dichotomy of physical (sex) dysphoria, and social (gender) dysphoria, but went with the latter for clarity (everyone knows what GD is) while remaining succinct >your dysphoria is rooted in your dissatisfaction with contemporary social norms
my dysphoria is rooted in dissatisfaction with my sexual morphology
more-so a manifestation of higher consciousness, dissatisfaction with evolutionary constructs, rather than social constructs
social roles or norms can be explained as a realization of those evolutionary constructs
while mutually inclusive to a degree, they're both distinct issues, yet in being broadly summarized by the term 'gender dysphoria', the nuance becomes muddied, with the focus being purely on 'gender = social manifestation'
I see it as: dissatisfaction with evolutionary constructs, which manifests subsequently as dissatisfaction with social constructs, which are realizations of the former in nature
[...]
it's not wrong to state there's 'ideology' in that, I have beliefs and ideals as to the right and ability to transition between sex (not insisting it's binary btw, one can go anywhere on the sliding scale), and have society respect and realize that (which manifests as the social ideologue side), I suppose >they aren't eliminating gender ideology, just enforcing their own
kek, idd
>this is why I was toying with the idea of calling it 'sex dysphoria' vs 'gender dysphoria', to differentiate between the dichotomy of physical (sex) dysphoria, and social (gender) dysphoria
gender is an emergent property of sex. And it has roots in biology. Sex is the genitals you have, gender is the social group based on genitals.
Gender expression is how you manifest your belonging to a group. Some are biological, like secondary sexual characteristics, such a breasts or voice. Other are culturally mediated, such as clothes.
Gender norms are part biological, like women breastfeeding or males chasing sexually while females choose- this happens in almost all animals, not just humans.Some are culturally mediated.
So it goes sex-->gender-->gender norms/roles/expression/etc.
Some people, the proponents of "gender as a social construct" believe that it's the opposite, and it's the existence of gender roles and norms that cause people to fall into genders.
That is patently wrong. Not only gender roles and norms and expression exist in almost all animals, including other primates, but gender itself.
Almost all animals, and all primates and mammals, socialize act differently with members of their sex than with members of the other sex.
And in social animals they form 2 separate social structures with 2 separate hierarchies, a male hierarchy and a female hierarchy. Including other primates. That's what we call gender when it happens in humans.
aight, so I'm too fucked in the head rn to digest/disseminate that, but I think we're near enough on the same page regardless, although >Sex is the genitals you have, gender is the social group based on genitals
when I refer to sex, I refer to biological phenotyping, rather than gonads, as per the scientific definition
all I know is that, to me and many others, GD is an innate phenomenon emergent of something unrelated to social norms, although perhaps the latter sparked intuit and awareness of such (still not the cause though)
it doesn't magically go away if someone starts referring to me as a woman, i.e. if I never took HRT and stayed morphologically male
similar to sexual orientation, I believe it is innate to oneself, instinctual perhaps, for whatever reason
to add more to the pot there, I remember some anon posting convoluted theory/diagrams showing partial fluidity of sexual orientation in response to cultural norms
in their theory, despite movement/flexibility being possible, one's orientation still remained firmly 'anchored' to the origin point (there was way more to it than that, but I'd do them a disservice to recall incorrectly: something about that anchoring becoming more rigid over time, becoming more ingrained as a person ages and experiences, resulting in less fluidity)
I believe GD is similar, in that it can be shunted certain ways in response to cultural influence, but remains concrete and anchored to its origin point
why do you assume the job of jannys is to censor all who disagree with you
surely their job is just to delete obvious trolls, whereas this person is merely observing "trans women are women" and "trans women are men" are both ideological stances
I don't care if people dislike me, the point is someone observing "trans woman are women" is just as ideological position as "trans women are men" is not something that requires a janny
why do you assume the job of jannys is to censor all who disagree with you
surely their job is just to delete obvious trolls, whereas this person is merely observing "trans women are women" and "trans women are men" are both ideological stances
Ah ok, you're clearly some kind of schizophrenic who detects hidden meaning in messages since that anon just posted "gender is a social construct and therefore ideas around it are ideologies" and you've decided that means "let's round up everyone trans" or something and that a janny should delete it
I hope you start taking your meds again, anon
7 days ago
Anonymous
>the point is someone observing "trans woman are women" is just as ideological position as "trans women are men" is not something that requires a janny
the point is no one brought that up peabrain
7 days ago
Anonymous
They are replying to someone complaining the image in OP uses the terminology "gender ideology" so yes they did
7 days ago
Anonymous
right but gender ideology doesnt necessarily mean trans women are women or anything fuckwad, the goal is that they dont want people seeing the idea of trans people as some weird ideology
7 days ago
Anonymous
but trans people are an ideology
it's as much of an ideology as "trans people are not valid, they are just their biological sex and you cannot change your gender"
what trans people believe about their gender, whether that's "I'm a man who wants to become a woman and needs surgery", "I'm a woman trapped in a man's body, I need treatment to alleviate my gender dysphoria", "I'm a woman and always have been one, I just need treatment for testosterone poisoning" or "I'm a woman and have always been one, normalise the girldick" - these are all ideological positions
7 days ago
Anonymous
Honestly, to just butt in for a moment, even if we would all be on that same page here:
The article's use of "gender ideology" is still something to roll your eyes at and sigh. Because by your logic, they aren't eliminating gender ideology, just enforcing their own. No matter how you put it, the people calling it "gender ideology" usually aren't using it in good faith.
So I don't know why we should engage with the idea that our experiences are just an ideology either
7 days ago
Anonymous
I will agree that their catchall term of "gender ideology" to mean "ideological positions on gender that I disagree with" is reductive. I think it's mostly an issue of black and white thinking on both sides. There's an assumption that people who wrankle on certain points merely don't "understand" gender, and if you've attended any diversity training session you'll have been told "trans people are the gender they say they are" as incontrovertible fact, when it's merely a differing perspective or mode of classification on the same material conditions
The problem is that both sides are so intransigent when clearly there's shades of grey. It's one of the reasons that I like /tttt/ because there is an acknowledgement here that for some '''''''trans women''''''' it IS a fetish and that this is different from people who experience pronounced distress about their assigned sex at birth
The other issue is the lack of a broadchurch approach to a plurality of opinion means we had the pendulum swing one way (TWAW no exceptions) and now it's swinging the other way
7 days ago
Anonymous
this is a retarded position tbh. fetishes are literally manifestations of mental illnesses. theres not a single fetish that cannot be with sufficient effort reduced down to some experienced trauma in a formative point in life, and the only way to deal with them is to get at their meaning and break the premise from which it flows.
as for identity, self itself is simultaneously mutable and static. few trannies even are equipped to have a decent conversation on it these days, because they buy their own delusion as an act of will, which while powerful ultimately can serve to create different mental illnesses. i personally am of the opinion that the proper category for trans people in terms of innate being is "androgyne", and that the rest is merely social phenomena. not that social phenomena is bad or unrelated, but it does not get at the essence of it except as a facet of being. cis people are even worse, they buy into false logics and constructed reality and parrot the smoke and mirrors as if it was revealed truth. they know nothing of anything, and their opinion should be spat on.
7 days ago
Anonymous
>what trans people believe about their gender, whether that's "I'm a man who wants to become a woman and needs surgery", "I'm a woman trapped in a man's body, I need treatment to alleviate my gender dysphoria", "I'm a woman and always have been one, I just need treatment for testosterone poisoning" or "I'm a woman and have always been one, normalise the girldick" - these are all ideological positions
not all trans people think that lmao and the op laws arent disenforcing that. stop bringing shit up that nobody mentioned and acting like everyone else said it
7 days ago
Anonymous
>but trans people are an ideology
I wish critical thought wasn't a dirty word now
reminder that the people insisting being trans or anything non-conforming is an ideology are only saying that because they see the world as black and white and assume everyone must think the same way they do, ie pushing a totalitarian ideology rooted in an archaic belief system used to suppress and control a populace
gender is a social construct, yet you can be born the wrong gender and yet masculinity is toxic. im thinking this ideology makes no sense and is actually just a rationalization for totalitarian social engineering programs backed by profit seeking medical industry, the DNC and power hungry FEDGOV bureaucrats, and bankrolled by a handful of(incidentally israeli) perverted bilionaire pedophiles
When people say “toxic masculinity” they don’t mean that literally all masculinity is toxic, as loaded a term as it is. Also why do you hate capitalism? Profits are good, do you want to live in the based soviet union or something
>When people say “toxic masculinity” they don’t mean that literally all masculinity is toxic, as loaded a term as it is.
like all leftist ideology these are basically cult mind control tactics used to gain power over people. see acording to progressive ideology a loving christian husband and father is doing toxic masculinity but woke pimps and pornographers are true feminists! thinking for yourself makes you dangerous and privileged but completely ceding over all independent thought to the media and a manufactured collectivist identity makes you woke!
The word ideology isn't wrong as trannies have screamed for gender to be viewed as a social construct built from individual ideas and perceptions. But people erroneously view the word "ideology" as "dogma"; like there's a highly organized cult of trans people enforcing rules. Stupid women on Twitter and TikTok have demonstrated there is an ideology to gender but there's no systematic control over it.
there's a rift in the community, contention around the definitions, I suppose as a manifestation of people's dissatisfaction with the social realization of their sex morphology, and the desire to not feel crushed mentally by such
understandable, but also understandable that society cannot 'warp reality' to usurp millennia-old imprinting (which ties back to sex dimorphism in the context of
damn wtf have I sparked in this thread
this is why I was toying with the idea of calling it 'sex dysphoria' vs 'gender dysphoria', to differentiate between the dichotomy of physical (sex) dysphoria, and social (gender) dysphoria, but went with the latter for clarity (everyone knows what GD is) while remaining succinct >your dysphoria is rooted in your dissatisfaction with contemporary social norms
my dysphoria is rooted in dissatisfaction with my sexual morphology
more-so a manifestation of higher consciousness, dissatisfaction with evolutionary constructs, rather than social constructs
social roles or norms can be explained as a realization of those evolutionary constructs
while mutually inclusive to a degree, they're both distinct issues, yet in being broadly summarized by the term 'gender dysphoria', the nuance becomes muddied, with the focus being purely on 'gender = social manifestation'
I see it as: dissatisfaction with evolutionary constructs, which manifests subsequently as dissatisfaction with social constructs, which are realizations of the former in nature
[...]
it's not wrong to state there's 'ideology' in that, I have beliefs and ideals as to the right and ability to transition between sex (not insisting it's binary btw, one can go anywhere on the sliding scale), and have society respect and realize that (which manifests as the social ideologue side), I suppose >they aren't eliminating gender ideology, just enforcing their own
kek, idd
) >like there's a highly organized cult of trans people enforcing rules
understandable that there's confusion there imo
the 'social construct' crowd are the largest or at least have the loudest voice, they're center-stage in all this
so I guess people looking around will see that opinion/representation mirrored everywhere they go, assuming there's some form of organized push
people are rarted too (emotional vs critical thinking) and fed bias narratives that color their perception, in addition to not going out and interacting with trans people directly, so that doesn't help either
another problem is, the contrasting opinion is seen as bigoted, so the opposition gets drowned out
social construct individuals wish to be acknowledged as 'feminine' or 'masculine' by society, yet vehemently oppose the social realizations that come with such a desire (i.e. insisting women can have beards, which is inherently masculine)
BUT, those social realizations are driven by evolutionary constructs that refer to dimorphic characteristics, therefore they aren't truly, exclusively 'social' in nature: they're hardcoded into our brain
the norms, behaviors, and roles, however, are different
that's something exclusively cultural in nature that, while influenced by sexual characteristics throughout evolution (as cultural dynamics evolve and roles adjust in expectation with such), isn't necessarily driven by billion-year-old imprinting/instincts
I feel it's easy to discard the notion of 'women are expected to homemake/rear children', yet harder to discard 'beards are masculine'
>These were legal in the first place?
i think its a grey area, like circumcision, piercings, breast aug, etc, basically up to the clinician
seldom valid cases in the US, idk about Europe, probably even less if not nonexistent
Man I am a collossal retard for genuinely believing right wingers when they used to say they wanted freedom and a plurality of voices to be heard. Now we’re looking at the “elimination of gender ideology”. Wow I love living under christian sharia law
>inb4 ummm sorry u cant personally castrate children on site like u could before sweaty
holy cope
terfs could be screeching and drowning hons in female bathroom toilet bowls and they would still curse rIgHt-wInGeRs with their dying breath.
simps to the end.
You're right, but the irony is that TERFs are so gullible they fall on right-winger conservative baits. Just check out who is funding LGB Alliance for example.
>sterlization, castration on minors
This is already not a thing anywhere.
>masectomies on minors
This is an extremely limited thing. Breast augmentation on minors is far more common (and has a far higher regret rate) and right wingers have zero problem with that. Wonder why?? Hmmmmmmm
>Breast augmentation on minors is far more common (and has a far higher regret rate) and right wingers have zero problem with that
Yes anon, the evil right wingers LOVE the idea of their underage daughter transforming herself into a little bimbo with double d tits. Everyone knows that evangelical Christians are lining up outside of plastic surgery clinics in droves and demanding that the state pay for their 11 year old daughters cracking new tits.
>In a slick video released on Facebook with over one million views so far, a hyper-feminized/sexualized 8 year old boy (who some have compared to a drag version of JonBenét Ramsey) is featured partying in a hypersexual adult LGBT environment and telling kids watching that if their parents or friends do not support their desire to be drag (or trans), they need to get new parents and friends. As “Lactatia” speaks to his peers, while an all too happy host leers, bold text leaps out at the viewer saying “YOU NEED NEW PARENTS! YOU NEED NEW FRIENDS!”
https://www.studocu.com/row/document/university-of-nicosia/finance-managerial-accounting/synanon-transgender-this-is-an-essay-about-gender-issues-around-the-world-and-how-we-are-influenced/16420782
>Masked Antifa protesters show up brandishing weapons at Texas 'drag brunch' with kids
Again, breast augmentation on children is more common with a higher regret rate and more complications than mastectomies. Which one are right wingers screeching about and trying to ban? Hmmmmm
same line of argument when brainwashed leftoids point to something like child pageants or catholic child abuse or republican politicians doing sex crimes because they have zero moral consciousness they can only think in terms of whatever ingroup does is good and criticising ingroup means youmust be outgroup. they are tribal minded and lack the sense of even horrible things like child abuse being wrong.
>Which one are right wingers screeching about and trying to ban? Hmmmmm
Which one are activists actively trying to normalize and bring into the public eye? Hmmmmm
If child pageant freaks were pushing as hard for normalizing the idea of giving children breast implants as you are for giving double mastectomies for children, right wingers would be shrieking about that too.
Turns out child pageant weirdos have more common sense than trans activists do.....
literally nothing wrong with not allowing srs for underaged because no one has ever had srs below the age of 18 (bar maybe one case) so it literally changes nothing
So at what point does the narrative shift from >nooo its a fringe minority that wants to get rid of trans people
to >oh okay there are clearly issues with mass prescribing srs to the population without adequate psychiatric evaluations
Every country on earth? Every doctor? Obviously common sense wasnt enough.
which literally kills some of them and makes all of the survivor's lives worse IN ADDITION TO churning out more late-trans hons
they're shooting themselves in the foot here, I mean hell even if they started up stage 9 for real and began mass executions of trannies they would still have the risk of new trannies being born so all the living ancestors of any tranny would have to be executed too just in case they have the genes, which would mean killing off a LOT of conservatives
this is a lose-lose agenda in which everyone's quality of life goes down except the already rich and powerful
So the deal with mastectomies is that they're routine and have legitimate medical use cases.
The medical community also somewhat views them as "cancer sacks" which is why there's kind of an unwillingness to look more into maximizing mtf breast growth.
In certain conditions mastectomies are routine even in underage people.
So when it comes to trans people then you have a surgery deemed useful/routine in underage people and you're only denying it to the trans ones.
I'll also say on the MTF side, BAs are completely reversible so there's no reason to deny them to minors. And the existence of BAs makes mastectomies somewhat reversible [if some tissue is left]
>So the deal with mastectomies is that they're routine and have legitimate medical use cases
Amputations are routine and have legitimate medical use cases too.
I have never heard anyone say "all kids are trans kids". Only thing I've ever witnessed is a handful of people at best taking a "burn the world" strategy and, presumably not entirely seriously, advocating for transing all kids and letting the cis ones detrans just so we don't miss any trans people
>If women are supposed to learn to accept their bodies even if they're flat, then what's so wrong with a woman choosing to become flat?
Having your breast tissue removed is not "choosing to become flat". Flat chested women can still nurse children. A woman that had her breasts removed when she was a child because she followed a social trend cannot.
>Having your breast tissue removed is not "choosing to become flat". Flat chested women can still nurse children. A woman that had her breasts removed when she was a child because she followed a social trend cannot.
Then just allow them to 95% reductions rather than 100%
This is what happens when trenders out number transmedicalists. Yeah maybe in an ideal fantasy world everyone should be able to get whatever medication/surgery they want for free with no gatekeeping, but in reality we need to do whatever we can to protect ourselves and we are losing because of piece of shit ugly hons/theyfabs/gender radicals. Fuck you ugly
Sweden is such an interesting place to be trans. >No minor transition anymore (largely due to Swedish medical arrogance causing them to ignore accepted research and guidelines by the rest of the world) >Giant humiliating gatekeeping process with RLE still alive and well in some places (depends on your sexologist and clinic) >Hondosing with no other legal alternatives, terrible options for HRT in general
But OTOH >State subsidizes the HRT >State paid voice lessons >State paid facial hair removal >State paid BA and SRS >Generally socially accepted to be a tranny, nobody cares
Idk why this country chooses over and over again to be selectively based or retarded at seemingly random
1. you are swedish, add me Nils Karlsson Pyssling#8528
2. swedish humble arrogance knows no bounds our government thinks they are the wisest on earth for literally no reason.
Norwegian tranner here, I looked a bit into it and all I could find was that "Riksen" is going to do a study based on 1200 patient experiences to see what the effects of their treatment methods are.
I just saw this thread on LULZ too, fellow tranner.
>LULZ
every board is just pol now isnt it
Danish win
it's not banned in the uk retard
Castration and Mastectomy are, it's 16 in Scotland, 17 in England and 18 in Wales and Northern Ireland (and Northern Ireland doesn't even have any clinics that do gender affirming mastectomies)
16 is the age of consent etc so it's not quite the same as being a minor
Based nordics
kentucky is nordics now?
KVLTtucky
>masectomies on minors
I don't get this.
Like yeah, MtF need to start hormones ASAP because male puberty turns you into a disgusting ogre, so it's a race against time. I can understand why people would support minors starting transitioning in this situation. But if you're AFAB, why do you need to cut your tits off at 14? Just wait four years, there's literally no rush. And TERFs, being man hating feminists, only care about trans issues as they involve women. Stop letting little girls remove their tits and 90% of anti-trans activism dies overnight. No one cares about faggy little boys cutting their dicks off.
From what I've read from FTMs, unless they have a weaker puberty, they seem to get just as dysphoric over their bodies as MTFs. T seems to be the more aggressive hormone but it's not like E doesn't make a plethora of changes of its own, especially to the skeleton.
Idk I kinda agree about most surgeries tho, unless it's to prevent relying on potentially harmful blockers, they should all be over 18 imo. But hrt just simply should be available to (carefully screened and informed) teens regardless of AGAB.
Because having two balloons hanging off your chest, and growing in size for several years, when you don't want them is really fucking bad for your mental health.
>Because having two balloons hanging off your chest, and growing in size for several years, when you don't want them is really fucking bad for your mental health.
given the irreversibility and potential for regret, it's still reasonable to make them wait til 18. they can wear a binder or whatever while waiting
HRT should have no age restrictions, but surgery should be 18+
they can get implants if they regret it. binding for years fucked up my ribcage and made my tits saggy
>they can get implants if they regret it.
implants don't look, move, or feel like real tits
>binding for years fucked up my ribcage and made my tits saggy
I 100% believe binding is also a really shitty solution for a lot of people, but given all the trade-offs I just feel like making surgeries 18+ is still the best compromise
you also have to consider the base rate of trans people is about 0.5% of the population. HRT for minors is important because HRT is age-dependent. surgeries aren't, though
I mean the alternative is having wrinkly balloons in your pants
A big reason for targetting masectomies is FtMs have a dramatically higher detransition rate then MtFs, and mascetomies are a relatively simple and cheap procedure to perform. Women are also much much more likely to transition from social pressure rather than genuine dysphoria, doing irreparable harm in a short time span.
Unironically, this is the fault of Theyfabs and Ftfemboys who treat gender like a fashion trend and make it seem like there are zero consequences to becoming a "boy". Girls with slight autism or bipolarism are getting caught up in the trend and not realizing all these "boys" they see on TikTok are literal girls not on T and never had top surgery. Queue upwards of 40% regret later in FtMs soon after.
This argument feels kind of misogynistic. Afabs have just as much agency as amabs and are intellectually equal.
>Afabs have just as much agency
Yes
>and are intellectually equal.
lol
no and no
you have to understand that this isn't an afab vs amab thing. this is an emerican thing. ideas are targeting what they think is a girl and changing them. you also have to understand that most people involved now what they are doing and win over the situation. is just some outlires that are not.
>FtMs have a dramatically higher detransition rate then MtFs
there is no evidence for this but your bias. in fact, the largest survey on transgenders reported that MtFs have a higher dretrans rate
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-abstract/107/9/e3937/6572526
Even at modest estimates, over 30% of FtMs don't continue hormones after 4yrs.
Suggests that youngshit FTMs are at lower risk for detransing as well:
> The 4-year gender-affirming hormone continuation rate was 70.2% (95% CI, 63.9-76.5). Transfeminine individuals had a higher continuation rate than transmasculine individuals 81.0% (72.0%-90.0%) vs 64.4% (56.0%-72.8%). People who started hormones as minors had higher continuation rate than people who started as adults 74.4% (66.0%-82.8%) vs 64.4% (56.0%-72.8%).
I also wonder if switching to DIY [for transfemmes mostly] is a factor here.
Detransitioning is always about regret - either because they don't pass or because they realize they aren't actually trans. I'd imagine youngshits are a lot more satisfied with their transition because it gives more hope for passing.
But rate of detransitoning regardess of time onset is still much higher for FtMs. Women either need more protection or criticism for their gender choices.
>But rate of detransitoning regardess of time onset is still much higher for FtMs. Women either need more protection or criticism for their gender choices.
But that's misogyny.
>completely ignores the other study with a larger and more varied base of trannies that implies otherwise
waow
Any social statistics that gives near universal support for trans experiences is bias. It's statistically impossible for 99% agreeablity of significance in a social study, yet it happens all the time in reports ot transitioning. It's a bias and flawed methods because social sciences are dominated by feminist and LGBT ideology that don't want to risk showing potential flaws in their progessivism. .
>Detransitioning is always about regret - either because they don't pass or because they realize they aren't actually trans.
actually no, look it up, it's overwhelmingly because they were ostracized or abused or even injured for their choice
only observes trannies with military medical records, has twice the amount of ftms as mtfs so you cannot even compare the "detrans" rates, and doesn't even account for if they continued hrt elsewhere. i would be counted as "detransing" for this study because i simply ghosted my doctor and started DiY
>ideology
it's so tiring bros...
Gender is a social construct and therefore ideas around it are ideologies.
gender dysphoria is not an ideology
mutilating kids with self diagnosed gd is
i wanna try whatever lens you're viewing life through
maybe it'd make life fun, like a crooked house attraction at an amusement park
>gender dysphoria is not an ideology
If Genders is a social construct then gender dysphoria is objectively an ideology, as your dysphoria is rooted in your dissatisfaction with contemporary social norms.
I don't know how my skeleton is a social norm but you do you
Your skeleton is not a social norm but your belief that your skeleton does not align with your gender is a refection of what you consider to be social norms.
If you were raised on an isolated mountain top and never told about the opposite gender, would your skeleton still give you feelings of dysphoria?
Uhm... Sure. Whatever. Humans rely on their external environment to contextualise their internal environment. There's a very good chance I would expetience dysphoria if I were raised on the deserted island, but wouldn't be able to recognise it for what it is.
But it's kind of a retarded premise, because it ignores the basics of human nature, which involve learning from others. And I learned from seeing the people around me, the objective reality that there's physiological differences regardless of the gender construct
"I'm mentally ill" (derogatory)
Good talk! Shall we do this again next week, same time?
>There's a very good chance I would expetience dysphoria if I were raised on the deserted island, but wouldn't be able to recognise it for what it is.
If this is true then gender is innate and not a social construct. Why else would you be feeling dysphoria over a "social construct" that you have not been exposed to?
I mean I experience dysphoria primarily over my sexual characteristics, not really over my genderual characteristics.
Idk just a thought
gender roles are a social and cultural construct, gender identity is innate and in the vast majority of people tied to their biological sex (going by typical markers like karyotype) but in some people does not line up, and in all of these things you will find that they are largely binary in the extreme but exist as axes of possible variations between those two points with a kind of inverted bell curve at either end
That's not really anything to do with gender though
If you feel dysphoria over your physical characteristics and transition to alleviate it, does that make you a man with gender dysphoria who's trying to modify his body to cope, or does it make you a woman, or does it make you something else?
The answer to all three is "yes" because none of these are more valid than the other, they are all ideological positions surrounding the concept of gender.
Hmmm. Idk, I'm not a man tho. Nothing ideological about it. I'm not and never have been a man. Male, sure, but not a man. Doesn't seem like you'd understand
The semantics issue is tied to the gendered classification system
What we consider to be a "man" is a cultural construct distinct from male. TERFs consider you to be a man, you consider yourself to be a woman. TERFs maintain the position that any adult human male is a man regardless of what medical interventions he has or however he feels about his gender. We'd be more inclined to say a person assigned male at birth identifies as a woman and so is one (or alternatively a male diagnosed with gender dysphoria can use medicine to transition into being a woman).
Neither stance actually fundamentally clashes because they are based on different ideological understandings of what a man and a woman are. You are not saying you are a woman in a way that a TERF understands what a woman is, they are not saying you are a man in a way that you understand a man to be. The issue is that these ideologies then impact society which generally has expectations around gendered spaces, and the battleground is which understanding of gender is the one society should adopt (the answer imo is some sort of compromise between the two)
>they are based on different ideological understandings of what a man and a woman are
look I hear your points about the language and its impact on society but you can't just slap a word on something lmao this is not and never has been about one ideology versus another, it's about an ideology being formed that is against some people existing because "ick" and religion
A lot of the "TERFs" aren't against trans people existing though. They'll even say you should gender people by their preferred pronouns to be polite and they should be supported in accessing gender dysphoria treatments and free to live and dress as they see fit, but that they just don't agree with them being in certain gendered spaces or categories (e.g. all-women shortlists, women's sports, women's homelessness shelters).
That goes back to their understanding of what woman is, which is adult human female, and then that trans women are men who desire to live socially as women and should be respected within reason.
This is at odds with trans women who feel they should be treated in line with what they understand women to be, which is anyone whose gender identity is that of a woman, and so they should not be excluded from these categories.
The "liberal TERF" belief is not quite the same as being against trans people existing, it's merely incorporating trans people into their understanding of gender vs going along with trans people's understanding of gender.
The rise in hatred towards the trans community - far worse than it was 5-6 years ago - is partially a function of trying to square the circle and force one understanding of gender while acting obstructive to people with the other understanding of gender. That's what the right wing have latched onto to stoke up hatred.
>trying to square the circle and force one understanding of gender while acting obstructive to people with the other understanding of gender
you sure do use a lot of words to defend a tiny minority of TERFs "just" saying that trannies need to be denied access to any kind of public or gendered spaces or "just" demanding that laws be written to make their existence in public spaces illegal while the vocal religious-fundamentalist-funded anti-feminist majority of them are literally calling for us to be denied medical care or our lives across the board
and also maybe people see things like this and are rightfully angered. for some reason systematic child abuse really tends to piss people off regardless of who does it. the agenda is no longer about individual rights but about imposing the dogmas of progressivist ideology, people who are shrill and sanctimonious and cry genoicide! nazi! christians do it too! at the slightest disagreement. but really they are not being backed by science but by powerful billionaires and powerful medical industry.
I don't think I made myself clear. I don't really consider myself a woman necessarily, maybe I will at some point, mayne not. But that doesn't matter. I am not a man. I know this to be true. Like I said nothing ideological about it. It's just how it is. I don't mind that other people think of me as a man. That's up to them. But my mind is not that of a man. Testosterone actively worked against the workings of my mind. This isn't about identity this is about truth, and the truth is that no matter what society thinks or tries to make me think, I am not a man
But anon, you are missing the point. "I am not a man" and "You are a man that thinks he is not a man" are both belief systems. Part of it has to do with what you understand a man to be. If you consider a man to be an adult human male, then you are a man. If you consider a man to be someone with a male gender identity, then you are not.
The rest of your post is you attempting to claim your position is objective truth, which is not, for there is no objective truth in a word that is being defined differently by different people.
>tiny minority of TERFs
No anon, the belief that "trans people should be free to live how they want, but also they should be treated as separate to cisgender people of their gender" is fairly widespread, people just don't tend to bring it up. Pic related for example a plurality of Brits agree trans women are women but a majority of Brits think trans women should not be allowed to compete in women's sports and where the British public are plurality supportive of trans women using changing rooms and toilets for their gender, they're plurality against this if the trans women is pre or non operative. This situation is very different from not wanting trans women to exist, and really is representative of that inbetween state I was alluding to ("trans women are women, but they're also males, and males and females need to be treated differently in some contexts").
The idea we should ban trans affirming healthcare is a minority - the focus is very much on trans affirming healthcare to CHILDREN, which is in-and-of itself a bit of a different conversation and there are trans people in this thread concurring that banning SRS in minors is a positive thing.
jesus christ shut the fuck up an opinion or a take is not a fucking SYSTEM
>No anon
YES anon I'm saying MOST TERFS FOLLOW THE PARTY LINE NOT THAT MOST BRITS ARE TERFS ARE YOU FUCKING RETARDED
>the focus is very much on trans affirming healthcare to CHILDREN
which is conclusively demonstrated through peer-reviewed and accepted scientific analysis and the real-world clinical evidence-based care approved by all the actual bodies of practicing scientists and doctors to be safe, effective, and over 99% accurate in its diagnosis and application (in that there is a less than 1% regret or detrans rate and most of that is due to a lack of social acceptance)
>jesus christ shut the fuck up an opinion or a take is not a fucking SYSTEM
Yes it is anon. That's why some cultures had more than two genders. What we are seeing here is two subcultures that have their own ways of seeing and understanding gender, along with a wider culture that appears to have an understanding of gender that means trans women are simultaneously women in some contexts but not others (which is analogous to some of those third gender roles in other cultures)
objectively incorrect
what we are seeing is a group of people with identities being attacked by a group of intolerant regressives, and in your ardent defense of them through your ridiculous semantics/gymnastics around attempting to frame "both sides" as being rooted in some ideology or system you are more than simply complicit in the damage done
>people with identities
But anon the concept of identifying as a transgender woman is a relatively new one. Many people who are trans women today would have identified as "queens" a century ago, which in itself was not an identity that exactly fit into our understandings of cis and trans, and also overlapped with people who would now consider themselves to be cisgender men. In a different time and place perhaps mukhannathun would have been how they related to their identity.
While there have always been people that did not fit into a neat social categorisation of men and women, and indeed people assigned male at birth who felt most aligned to the identities and codes of behaviour displayed by the majority of those assigned female at birth, their understandings or ways of describing identities cannot be 1:1 mapped onto Western modern understandings.
Indeed it wasn't until fairly recently we saw the emergence of "I am a transfeminine person" or "I am a non binary trans woman" whereas perhaps ten or twenty years ago those people would have seen themselves as being a transgender woman, and that's without even considering something relatively innocuous like "I am a butch trans woman".
Someone's identity is inherently informed by the society around it and the cultural norms they are informed by. Many trans women will relate the first time they purchased feminine clothing as affirming, or being forced to cut their hair by uncaring parents as dysphoria inducing. But that's only because our culture sees those items as gendered in one particular way, whereas in another time and place it could be that men are expected to have long hair and wear flowing draperies while women had an entirely different mode of being. Nobody's identity is inherently objective, and neither is anyone's way of understanding it.
What you are considering to be damage done is also inimically linked into this.
congratulations on your expertly and most verbosely executed complete and total diversion from my point, once again
it does not fucking matter what the identity is
But it does anon. Because the precept we are seeing here is that trans women are women vs trans women are sometimes women vs trans women are men.
What the identity means, and the consequences of that identity, are what is at stake here. And there will be disagreement amongst trans people if a non-passing hon who came out two days ago and is pre-everything is as valid as a gigapassoid stealth trans woman and has equal a right to access women's spaces. While we may choose to label that as merely internalised transphobia, it is just another hallmark that there is no immutable objective reality of "trans women ARE women" or "trans women ARE NOT women" but rather a plurality of voices within a broad church.
Just because we may feel like women, does that make us women? Just because we look like women, does that make us women? What does being a woman mean? What does it mean to "look like" a woman? What is a woman?
That very last question is the most ideological of all.
I personally feel that you and people with your perspective on this issue are ridiculously unhelpfully trying to turn a series of practical egalitarian considerations into nebulous philosophical quandaries for the sake of denying something that seems newly accepted or popular in communication/media or simply unfamiliar to the vast majority of people by sheer statistics and entirely in line with a predisposition towards religious and nationalistic world viewpoints
I think the wider culture is actually split.
Cons seem to agree with the tranny definition of gender but also oppose it. This is why their war is focused on trannies and limiting tranny things like HRT.
Libs and leftists seem to agree with the theyfab definition of gender and it's why they haven't combated the cons that forecefully. They view the tranny definition of gender as BDD
It's not a belief system though anon. It's just observations. Men have mistaken me as one of their own for all my life, and it's given me quite some insight into how their minds work. And they work differently from mine. The definition of "man" doesn't matter here, it won't make a difference unless you use some outrageous definition like "a featherless biped". Under any normal human definition of a man, you will find a majority of individuals who do not think like I do. Or rather, I don't think like them.
And like I said, this is to the point that the very male hormone itself causes brain activity that clashes with my own. A man's thoughts and feelings, brought about by testosterone, that felt like they weren't my own. This goes beyond beliefs. Beyond your question of what a man is. You may consider me one, but inside, I am not.
But I already thought you wouldn't understand, and it seems I might have been right. But that might be a good thing. Nobody should be at war with themselves
>pic
"PENIS=RAPE REEEEEEEE"
>they are all ideological positions surrounding the concept of gender
no, they attempts at resolving a linguistic and medical categorization failure with semantics
desert island meme is retarded. if i were born without legs in isolation i'd think having no legs was normal. hell, it somehow took me 15 years to figure out that being legally blind in one eye wasn't normal, and maybe i should get glasses
damn wtf have I sparked in this thread
this is why I was toying with the idea of calling it 'sex dysphoria' vs 'gender dysphoria', to differentiate between the dichotomy of physical (sex) dysphoria, and social (gender) dysphoria, but went with the latter for clarity (everyone knows what GD is) while remaining succinct
>your dysphoria is rooted in your dissatisfaction with contemporary social norms
my dysphoria is rooted in dissatisfaction with my sexual morphology
more-so a manifestation of higher consciousness, dissatisfaction with evolutionary constructs, rather than social constructs
social roles or norms can be explained as a realization of those evolutionary constructs
while mutually inclusive to a degree, they're both distinct issues, yet in being broadly summarized by the term 'gender dysphoria', the nuance becomes muddied, with the focus being purely on 'gender = social manifestation'
I see it as: dissatisfaction with evolutionary constructs, which manifests subsequently as dissatisfaction with social constructs, which are realizations of the former in nature
it's not wrong to state there's 'ideology' in that, I have beliefs and ideals as to the right and ability to transition between sex (not insisting it's binary btw, one can go anywhere on the sliding scale), and have society respect and realize that (which manifests as the social ideologue side), I suppose
>they aren't eliminating gender ideology, just enforcing their own
kek, idd
that is correct. If gender were a social construct then gd would be caused by dissatisfaction with contemporary gender norms. But gender is not a social construct.
>this is why I was toying with the idea of calling it 'sex dysphoria' vs 'gender dysphoria', to differentiate between the dichotomy of physical (sex) dysphoria, and social (gender) dysphoria
gender is an emergent property of sex. And it has roots in biology. Sex is the genitals you have, gender is the social group based on genitals.
Gender expression is how you manifest your belonging to a group. Some are biological, like secondary sexual characteristics, such a breasts or voice. Other are culturally mediated, such as clothes.
Gender norms are part biological, like women breastfeeding or males chasing sexually while females choose- this happens in almost all animals, not just humans.Some are culturally mediated.
So it goes sex-->gender-->gender norms/roles/expression/etc.
Some people, the proponents of "gender as a social construct" believe that it's the opposite, and it's the existence of gender roles and norms that cause people to fall into genders.
That is patently wrong. Not only gender roles and norms and expression exist in almost all animals, including other primates, but gender itself.
Almost all animals, and all primates and mammals, socialize act differently with members of their sex than with members of the other sex.
And in social animals they form 2 separate social structures with 2 separate hierarchies, a male hierarchy and a female hierarchy. Including other primates. That's what we call gender when it happens in humans.
aight, so I'm too fucked in the head rn to digest/disseminate that, but I think we're near enough on the same page regardless, although
>Sex is the genitals you have, gender is the social group based on genitals
when I refer to sex, I refer to biological phenotyping, rather than gonads, as per the scientific definition
all I know is that, to me and many others, GD is an innate phenomenon emergent of something unrelated to social norms, although perhaps the latter sparked intuit and awareness of such (still not the cause though)
it doesn't magically go away if someone starts referring to me as a woman, i.e. if I never took HRT and stayed morphologically male
similar to sexual orientation, I believe it is innate to oneself, instinctual perhaps, for whatever reason
to add more to the pot there, I remember some anon posting convoluted theory/diagrams showing partial fluidity of sexual orientation in response to cultural norms
in their theory, despite movement/flexibility being possible, one's orientation still remained firmly 'anchored' to the origin point (there was way more to it than that, but I'd do them a disservice to recall incorrectly: something about that anchoring becoming more rigid over time, becoming more ingrained as a person ages and experiences, resulting in less fluidity)
I believe GD is similar, in that it can be shunted certain ways in response to cultural influence, but remains concrete and anchored to its origin point
cant jannies do their fucking job already
why do you assume the job of jannys is to censor all who disagree with you
surely their job is just to delete obvious trolls, whereas this person is merely observing "trans women are women" and "trans women are men" are both ideological stances
kys shitposter, i never said that and they are very clearly not observing that. learn to read
>go to crystal cafe
>spout stereotypical incel shit
>why dont they like me???
professional retard ova here
I don't care if people dislike me, the point is someone observing "trans woman are women" is just as ideological position as "trans women are men" is not something that requires a janny
Ah ok, you're clearly some kind of schizophrenic who detects hidden meaning in messages since that anon just posted "gender is a social construct and therefore ideas around it are ideologies" and you've decided that means "let's round up everyone trans" or something and that a janny should delete it
I hope you start taking your meds again, anon
>the point is someone observing "trans woman are women" is just as ideological position as "trans women are men" is not something that requires a janny
the point is no one brought that up peabrain
They are replying to someone complaining the image in OP uses the terminology "gender ideology" so yes they did
right but gender ideology doesnt necessarily mean trans women are women or anything fuckwad, the goal is that they dont want people seeing the idea of trans people as some weird ideology
but trans people are an ideology
it's as much of an ideology as "trans people are not valid, they are just their biological sex and you cannot change your gender"
what trans people believe about their gender, whether that's "I'm a man who wants to become a woman and needs surgery", "I'm a woman trapped in a man's body, I need treatment to alleviate my gender dysphoria", "I'm a woman and always have been one, I just need treatment for testosterone poisoning" or "I'm a woman and have always been one, normalise the girldick" - these are all ideological positions
Honestly, to just butt in for a moment, even if we would all be on that same page here:
The article's use of "gender ideology" is still something to roll your eyes at and sigh. Because by your logic, they aren't eliminating gender ideology, just enforcing their own. No matter how you put it, the people calling it "gender ideology" usually aren't using it in good faith.
So I don't know why we should engage with the idea that our experiences are just an ideology either
I will agree that their catchall term of "gender ideology" to mean "ideological positions on gender that I disagree with" is reductive. I think it's mostly an issue of black and white thinking on both sides. There's an assumption that people who wrankle on certain points merely don't "understand" gender, and if you've attended any diversity training session you'll have been told "trans people are the gender they say they are" as incontrovertible fact, when it's merely a differing perspective or mode of classification on the same material conditions
The problem is that both sides are so intransigent when clearly there's shades of grey. It's one of the reasons that I like /tttt/ because there is an acknowledgement here that for some '''''''trans women''''''' it IS a fetish and that this is different from people who experience pronounced distress about their assigned sex at birth
The other issue is the lack of a broadchurch approach to a plurality of opinion means we had the pendulum swing one way (TWAW no exceptions) and now it's swinging the other way
this is a retarded position tbh. fetishes are literally manifestations of mental illnesses. theres not a single fetish that cannot be with sufficient effort reduced down to some experienced trauma in a formative point in life, and the only way to deal with them is to get at their meaning and break the premise from which it flows.
as for identity, self itself is simultaneously mutable and static. few trannies even are equipped to have a decent conversation on it these days, because they buy their own delusion as an act of will, which while powerful ultimately can serve to create different mental illnesses. i personally am of the opinion that the proper category for trans people in terms of innate being is "androgyne", and that the rest is merely social phenomena. not that social phenomena is bad or unrelated, but it does not get at the essence of it except as a facet of being. cis people are even worse, they buy into false logics and constructed reality and parrot the smoke and mirrors as if it was revealed truth. they know nothing of anything, and their opinion should be spat on.
>what trans people believe about their gender, whether that's "I'm a man who wants to become a woman and needs surgery", "I'm a woman trapped in a man's body, I need treatment to alleviate my gender dysphoria", "I'm a woman and always have been one, I just need treatment for testosterone poisoning" or "I'm a woman and have always been one, normalise the girldick" - these are all ideological positions
not all trans people think that lmao and the op laws arent disenforcing that. stop bringing shit up that nobody mentioned and acting like everyone else said it
>but trans people are an ideology
I wish critical thought wasn't a dirty word now
reminder that the people insisting being trans or anything non-conforming is an ideology are only saying that because they see the world as black and white and assume everyone must think the same way they do, ie pushing a totalitarian ideology rooted in an archaic belief system used to suppress and control a populace
shut the fuck up buzzword light year.
gender is a social construct, yet you can be born the wrong gender and yet masculinity is toxic. im thinking this ideology makes no sense and is actually just a rationalization for totalitarian social engineering programs backed by profit seeking medical industry, the DNC and power hungry FEDGOV bureaucrats, and bankrolled by a handful of(incidentally israeli) perverted bilionaire pedophiles
When people say “toxic masculinity” they don’t mean that literally all masculinity is toxic, as loaded a term as it is. Also why do you hate capitalism? Profits are good, do you want to live in the based soviet union or something
>When people say “toxic masculinity” they don’t mean that literally all masculinity is toxic, as loaded a term as it is.
like all leftist ideology these are basically cult mind control tactics used to gain power over people. see acording to progressive ideology a loving christian husband and father is doing toxic masculinity but woke pimps and pornographers are true feminists! thinking for yourself makes you dangerous and privileged but completely ceding over all independent thought to the media and a manufactured collectivist identity makes you woke!
The word ideology isn't wrong as trannies have screamed for gender to be viewed as a social construct built from individual ideas and perceptions. But people erroneously view the word "ideology" as "dogma"; like there's a highly organized cult of trans people enforcing rules. Stupid women on Twitter and TikTok have demonstrated there is an ideology to gender but there's no systematic control over it.
there's a rift in the community, contention around the definitions, I suppose as a manifestation of people's dissatisfaction with the social realization of their sex morphology, and the desire to not feel crushed mentally by such
understandable, but also understandable that society cannot 'warp reality' to usurp millennia-old imprinting (which ties back to sex dimorphism in the context of
)
>like there's a highly organized cult of trans people enforcing rules
understandable that there's confusion there imo
the 'social construct' crowd are the largest or at least have the loudest voice, they're center-stage in all this
so I guess people looking around will see that opinion/representation mirrored everywhere they go, assuming there's some form of organized push
people are rarted too (emotional vs critical thinking) and fed bias narratives that color their perception, in addition to not going out and interacting with trans people directly, so that doesn't help either
another problem is, the contrasting opinion is seen as bigoted, so the opposition gets drowned out
social construct individuals wish to be acknowledged as 'feminine' or 'masculine' by society, yet vehemently oppose the social realizations that come with such a desire (i.e. insisting women can have beards, which is inherently masculine)
BUT, those social realizations are driven by evolutionary constructs that refer to dimorphic characteristics, therefore they aren't truly, exclusively 'social' in nature: they're hardcoded into our brain
the norms, behaviors, and roles, however, are different
that's something exclusively cultural in nature that, while influenced by sexual characteristics throughout evolution (as cultural dynamics evolve and roles adjust in expectation with such), isn't necessarily driven by billion-year-old imprinting/instincts
I feel it's easy to discard the notion of 'women are expected to homemake/rear children', yet harder to discard 'beards are masculine'
These were legal in the first place? What the fuck?
(Assuming sterilisation/castration refers to orchiectomy/SRS and not HRT)
I am aware of only one case where someone got srs at 17. Don't know of any orchiectomy cases.
>These were legal in the first place?
i think its a grey area, like circumcision, piercings, breast aug, etc, basically up to the clinician
seldom valid cases in the US, idk about Europe, probably even less if not nonexistent
No, they just like to use very scary words to describe anything trans related
Man I am a collossal retard for genuinely believing right wingers when they used to say they wanted freedom and a plurality of voices to be heard. Now we’re looking at the “elimination of gender ideology”. Wow I love living under christian sharia law
>inb4 ummm sorry u cant personally castrate children on site like u could before sweaty
>Sweden,norway,finland,UK
>right wing
its just white women complaining and white women are at the top of the pyramid.
tories are right wing yes
Largely pushed by American Christian groups, they just make pretend "feminist" groups because it looks more presentable in the modern day
holy cope
terfs could be screeching and drowning hons in female bathroom toilet bowls and they would still curse rIgHt-wInGeRs with their dying breath.
simps to the end.
You're right, but the irony is that TERFs are so gullible they fall on right-winger conservative baits. Just check out who is funding LGB Alliance for example.
>Norway, Sweden, various red states, and the UK
So Social Fascism theory was true all along! Rare Stalin W I guess.
>genuinely believing right wingers when they used to say they wanted freedom and a plurality of voices to be heard
Nigga
i wish i had a 8yo trap shota gf
I'm Norwegian and uhhh source? The OP article has no sources and is just an opinion piece otherwise
Calling bs on this
>sterlization, castration on minors
This is already not a thing anywhere.
>masectomies on minors
This is an extremely limited thing. Breast augmentation on minors is far more common (and has a far higher regret rate) and right wingers have zero problem with that. Wonder why?? Hmmmmmmm
>Breast augmentation on minors is far more common (and has a far higher regret rate) and right wingers have zero problem with that
Yes anon, the evil right wingers LOVE the idea of their underage daughter transforming herself into a little bimbo with double d tits. Everyone knows that evangelical Christians are lining up outside of plastic surgery clinics in droves and demanding that the state pay for their 11 year old daughters cracking new tits.
>In a slick video released on Facebook with over one million views so far, a hyper-feminized/sexualized 8 year old boy (who some have compared to a drag version of JonBenét Ramsey) is featured partying in a hypersexual adult LGBT environment and telling kids watching that if their parents or friends do not support their desire to be drag (or trans), they need to get new parents and friends. As “Lactatia” speaks to his peers, while an all too happy host leers, bold text leaps out at the viewer saying “YOU NEED NEW PARENTS! YOU NEED NEW FRIENDS!”
https://www.studocu.com/row/document/university-of-nicosia/finance-managerial-accounting/synanon-transgender-this-is-an-essay-about-gender-issues-around-the-world-and-how-we-are-influenced/16420782
>Masked Antifa protesters show up brandishing weapons at Texas 'drag brunch' with kids
https://www.foxnews.com/us/masked-antifa-protesters-show-brandishing-weapons-texas-drag-bunch-kids
https://twitter.com/TaylerUSA/status/1564073099015897089
https://thegrayzone.com/2021/12/24/leaked-files-syria-psyops-astroturfing-breadtube-covid
https://www.city-journal.org/the-real-story-behind-drag-queen-story-hour?wallit_nosession=1
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/07/26/the-german-experiment-that-placed-foster-children-with-pedophiles
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/billionaire-family-pushing-synthetic-sex-identities-ssi-pritzkers
https://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/the-sexual-revolution-and-children-how-the-left-took-things-too-far-a-702679.html
https://thefederalist.com/2021/11/15/transgender-professor-at-old-dominion-university-rebrands-pedophiles-as-minor-attracted-persons/
https://nypost.com/2023/01/20/couple-pimped-their-adopted-sons-out-to-pedophile-ring-report/
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may/07/scottish-paedophile-ring-guilty-child-abuse
Again, breast augmentation on children is more common with a higher regret rate and more complications than mastectomies. Which one are right wingers screeching about and trying to ban? Hmmmmm
same line of argument when brainwashed leftoids point to something like child pageants or catholic child abuse or republican politicians doing sex crimes because they have zero moral consciousness they can only think in terms of whatever ingroup does is good and criticising ingroup means youmust be outgroup. they are tribal minded and lack the sense of even horrible things like child abuse being wrong.
>Which one are right wingers screeching about and trying to ban? Hmmmmm
Which one are activists actively trying to normalize and bring into the public eye? Hmmmmm
If child pageant freaks were pushing as hard for normalizing the idea of giving children breast implants as you are for giving double mastectomies for children, right wingers would be shrieking about that too.
Turns out child pageant weirdos have more common sense than trans activists do.....
im just glad they're banning circumcision
literally nothing wrong with not allowing srs for underaged because no one has ever had srs below the age of 18 (bar maybe one case) so it literally changes nothing
THEY WANT US EITHER DEAD OR GAY
TRANS GENOCIDE IS REAL
So at what point does the narrative shift from
>nooo its a fringe minority that wants to get rid of trans people
to
>oh okay there are clearly issues with mass prescribing srs to the population without adequate psychiatric evaluations
Every country on earth? Every doctor? Obviously common sense wasnt enough.
God damnit
Norway and Finland where literally my favorite countries
>Finland the United Kingdom
>on minors
kys the only way for people to actually pass is hrt before puberty
They class blockers as castration/sterilization anon. That means they'll be forcing all trans youth through natal puberty
which literally kills some of them and makes all of the survivor's lives worse IN ADDITION TO churning out more late-trans hons
they're shooting themselves in the foot here, I mean hell even if they started up stage 9 for real and began mass executions of trannies they would still have the risk of new trannies being born so all the living ancestors of any tranny would have to be executed too just in case they have the genes, which would mean killing off a LOT of conservatives
this is a lose-lose agenda in which everyone's quality of life goes down except the already rich and powerful
>disgusting boomerhon okay with people suffering because they chose to repress forever
Many such cases
>other people can suffer needlessly so i can hold vain moral superiority
It's just a bunch of lateshits trying to level the playing field. The only people who can vote and support youngshits are chasers.
>biocollectivist
you are one of my favorite schizos
Why? He spams exact same posts everytime
it's one of the more damaging displays of unhinged hate and actual ideological totalitarianism, to be reported among the rest of course
So the deal with mastectomies is that they're routine and have legitimate medical use cases.
The medical community also somewhat views them as "cancer sacks" which is why there's kind of an unwillingness to look more into maximizing mtf breast growth.
In certain conditions mastectomies are routine even in underage people.
So when it comes to trans people then you have a surgery deemed useful/routine in underage people and you're only denying it to the trans ones.
I'll also say on the MTF side, BAs are completely reversible so there's no reason to deny them to minors. And the existence of BAs makes mastectomies somewhat reversible [if some tissue is left]
>So the deal with mastectomies is that they're routine and have legitimate medical use cases
Amputations are routine and have legitimate medical use cases too.
I have never heard anyone say "all kids are trans kids". Only thing I've ever witnessed is a handful of people at best taking a "burn the world" strategy and, presumably not entirely seriously, advocating for transing all kids and letting the cis ones detrans just so we don't miss any trans people
it's pasta don't respond
Ah my bad, never seen it before. Thanks for the heads-up!
everyone who disagrees with my FEDGOV ideology must be a russian bot!
If women are supposed to learn to accept their bodies even if they're flat, then what's so wrong with a woman choosing to become flat?
literally fucking nothing cis people can get breast reduction or augmentation and it's not seen as some mortal sin like this
>If women are supposed to learn to accept their bodies even if they're flat, then what's so wrong with a woman choosing to become flat?
Having your breast tissue removed is not "choosing to become flat". Flat chested women can still nurse children. A woman that had her breasts removed when she was a child because she followed a social trend cannot.
>because she followed a social trend
concern troll kys
You first.
>Having your breast tissue removed is not "choosing to become flat". Flat chested women can still nurse children. A woman that had her breasts removed when she was a child because she followed a social trend cannot.
Then just allow them to 95% reductions rather than 100%
The gadsen flag symbolizes freedom and transexualism only exists with freedom?
This is what happens when trenders out number transmedicalists. Yeah maybe in an ideal fantasy world everyone should be able to get whatever medication/surgery they want for free with no gatekeeping, but in reality we need to do whatever we can to protect ourselves and we are losing because of piece of shit ugly hons/theyfabs/gender radicals. Fuck you ugly
Sweden is such an interesting place to be trans.
>No minor transition anymore (largely due to Swedish medical arrogance causing them to ignore accepted research and guidelines by the rest of the world)
>Giant humiliating gatekeeping process with RLE still alive and well in some places (depends on your sexologist and clinic)
>Hondosing with no other legal alternatives, terrible options for HRT in general
But OTOH
>State subsidizes the HRT
>State paid voice lessons
>State paid facial hair removal
>State paid BA and SRS
>Generally socially accepted to be a tranny, nobody cares
Idk why this country chooses over and over again to be selectively based or retarded at seemingly random
1. you are swedish, add me Nils Karlsson Pyssling#8528
2. swedish humble arrogance knows no bounds our government thinks they are the wisest on earth for literally no reason.
I like how this entire thread is based on an image that doesn't even have a source and no norwayanons have been able to confirm this is a thing
That is actually kinda funny yeah. I don't even remember how we got to these discussions lol
Norwegian tranner here, I looked a bit into it and all I could find was that "Riksen" is going to do a study based on 1200 patient experiences to see what the effects of their treatment methods are.
TTD.