if you asked a question online directed towards women, would you hold the responses made by trans women in as high a regard as the responses made by cis women?
explain your reasoning
if you asked a question online directed towards women, would you hold the responses made by trans women in as high a regard as the responses made by c...
Idk on the whole no I would not see them the same. some trans girls that are passing and blah blah really are just women. but the majority are boymoders and twinhons or hons and while I wouldn't say they have female opinions I also wouldn't say they have particularly male opinions. they have schizo opinions
t. twinkhon
so if twinkhons have schizo opinions and you're a twinkhon, are you acknowledging that you have schizo opinions or is it a judgement based off your interactions in this community?
mostly an observed opinion. depends on what you ask me about. I'm going to therapy twice a week and desperately trying to enter a you have no enemies phase so make of that what you will
Oh I see
What does your therapist think about your twinkness? and what is it about the community that you think attracts (creates?) schizo behavior?
he doesn't really comment on it, I don't really think it would be his place either to talk about my appearance.
as far as the community goes I think about it like this. cis women have serious negative complexes with just being a little too tall (literally have seen girls cry about being 5'9) and feeling unfeminine. now imagine if she was getting misgendered routinely, and had male social expectations unless she verbally affirmed she was female. I think that woman would be destroyed mentally. now take that woman and imagine she suffered through years of hairy body, strong muscles, broad skeletal changes AND she got ignored about it when she was young enough to stop it. that to me explains the schizo, the suicide rates, the fetishes. even trans girls who are well adjusted or even pass have to fight with the fact that they are basically second class women or even third class homosexuals in the eyes of even the most progressive people, unable to beat children,etc
to me, it takes a uniquely strong individual to experience all of this and not go a little insane. even as I work through a lot of my underlying issues, my transness makes me consider slamming my car into a tree on the highway or even thinking about how to jump in front of the train by my house. being delulu is a self defense mechanism against the cruelty of this cursed existence that really most 'normal' people would fall into when confronted with such a fundamental ontological issue, as seen by other similar issues.
Only if they are passoids and actually being treated as women every day.
How much of that do you think they need to experience before you consider their word as valuable as someone who has been a cis female their whole life?
Depends on what the question is about and how far they are in their transition.
If they're just starting out, then no. If they're further in their transition and have socially lived as women, then sure, although it'd depend on the topic.
If it's about harassment, working conditions and whatever, yeah, same regard.
If it's about pregnancy and such, not the same regard. I'd also hold the words of people who have actually been pregnant in higher regard than those who haven't been.
How long would they need to have socially lived as a woman for their opinion on those specific topics to be equal to you?
Do you think as someone whos only lived as a woman partially could end up holding different interpretations of the same events as a cis woman whos been female her whole life? Generally speaking
Do you think peoples judgement of trans individuals is a natural safety mechanism on their part or a learned behavior?
I suppose the questions I'm thinking of would have more to do with the womens experiences and their broad interpretation of those experiences, not really their intelligence.
ugly people are treated different and worse across the board and it's not a unique reaction to trans people. I think even in a society without transphobia there would be innate discomfort with seeing a tranny that isn't conventionally attractive. people seriously don't even care if you don't pass as long as you're cute.
So would you also hold an ugly cis womans opinions at around the same value as a non-passing trans woman? Do you think an ugly cis woman suffers from the same phenomena you mentioned before, not specifically the misgendering stuff, but the end result. The ostracization that leads to "schizo opinions"?
Apparently ostracization isn't a real word according to my spell check. meh.
What do you think separates other trans women from yourself? I know you said "malebrained" but what exactly have they done to separate themselves from their malebrain?
>Even if two people experience the same thing, only the one with a bit of intelligence and self-awareness will be able to accurately describe the experience.
Do you mind giving me an example?
For instance, if you went to some woman forum and said "here is a picture of me, what can I do to attract more women" can you explain to me why you'd prefer a trans womans opinion over a cis womans? Once again, assuming the opinions you're receiving are honest from all parties.
Other trans women are real and not attention seeking idiots who "suddenly got dysphoria at 16 well after puberty". I mean I literally would get mad when I was called a girl up until that point but ig i still have dysphoria and am on HRT so if I'm sort of trans idk but I'm not real. Everyone else knew when they were like 4, or at the very latest like 14 if they had a later puberty but mine was well after puberty
How does one determine whether a 4 year old is trans or just confused or experimenting?
Because like they just tell you. I'm just talking about other trans women here who say when they knew they were trans I mean I know cuz I usually make a thread every so often to make myself feel shit for being a faker and way too late. I'm not talking about testing if they're trans I'm only talking about the ones who are trans now too
It seems a bit odd to me that you're comfortable both with letting a 4 year old define who they are by themself, but won't let yourself identify who you are because of what seems to be trans groupthink
Do you see why thats confusing to me? To elevate the introspection of a 4 year old above your own introspection?
Also may I ask how old you are? You can ignore that question if you'd like. Or if it will break the rules.
>can you explain to me why you'd prefer a trans womans opinion over a cis womans?
The advice you receive is only going to be as good as the perception of the person giving it. For someone to tell you how to attract men better they have to remember what they men they've interacted with or heard about were attracted to and be able to simulate how said men would react to the person asking for advice given said men's prior attraction. A lot of women don't need to have that kind of social intelligence and so they just don't have it. Meanwhile I expect trans people to have had to practice the kind of perceptive and empathetic skills required for giving that advice due to those skills also being essential for blending into society more easily.
So you think a trans womans advice is more valuable because they need to study and practice what comes to cis women naturally?
Basically yeah. Skills you use actively are gonna be better honed than skills you autopilot. Though I don't know how things shake out for an insanely perceptive cis woman vs an insanely perceptive trans woman
Could it be problematic that equating the female experience to a learned skill also causes it to become measurable for the trans person, as opposed to the cis woman who is by nature the foundation of said experience?
I mean, isn't the cis womans perception the baseline?
What is the bar from "very early" to "adequate"?
>What is the bar from "very early" to "adequate"?
I'm not totally sure where to draw the line but I think something like 2 years on HRT and girlmoding full time is a reasonable minimum to set. I'm honestly not sure though. It's a thorny question.
Perhaps its more reasonable to say it varies from person to person
Do you believe the ratio of people identifying as trans that would satisfying your standard is rather high or low? I mean, if people were answering the question online were trans, where would you place your bet in regard to whether you'd be willing to hold their opinion in the same league as a cis woman
Same question to you
If average trans women were responding to your inquiry, would you assume that they've measured up to your standard of "female experience" enough to hold their opinion to the same regard as cis women?
I'm asking because I'd assume most people that identify as trans haven't taken the most extreme steps towards experiencing life as a woman, or maybe are even only doing the bare minimum if anything. It is easy to "live out" your ideal over the internet.
it's not that female experience is a learned skill, but that being able to recall and analyze one's experience is a skill. Anyone who presents (and is perceived) in society as female will experience a female experience, but it is then down to the individual as to whether or not they can say anything coherent or useful about said experience.
if i'm interacting with someone on the basis of wanting information from them then the part where they give me accurate and useful information in way more important than the part where they meet my baseline of required background knowledge. someone could have lived through the platonic ideal of "the female experience" but if they half-remember everything and can't describe the things they do remember then that experience kind of isn't worth a shit
Nta and I think could be right, but only for the trans women who really care about blending into society and living as the average woman. Imo a good parallel is learning English natively vs learning it formally as a second language. People who learn it formally are better able to explain grammatical structure, even if their grammar actually isn’t as good as the native. The native’s grammar might be good, but they learnt purely through immersion, so they may not have good advice beyond just “uhh idk read more I guess”.
But there’s some confounding factors. Like if you ask the average boymoder anon here, who is just living as a man with long hair, questions like “how do you attract a man”, they are not living as women yet + they are usually passive introverted people, so they might say something like “I don’t know, I just do my own thing and hope someone approaches me, or I guess discord could work”, which is not the average cis f response.
Whether femininity comes at least partially naturally to you, is another factor. If femininity is too unlike who you are, you end up with giving strange responses as well. For example, I tried to act feminine as a teenager (am afab) and I kept failing, I was painstakingly trying to study it but it didn’t work. I should theoretically be good at reporting my experiences, because I did a deliberate conscious study of femininity, but femininity was so unnatural to me, I believe my experiences are anomalous and not being worthy data. A good parallel is MtFs reporting how to be masculine, on one hand they could be better at it than cis men because they had to deliberately think about it and pretend at it, on the other hand you have to remember they literally failed at it and are the equivalent of people who have to consciously breathe while it comes naturally to everyone else
>I suppose the questions I'm thinking of would have more to do with the womens experiences and their broad interpretation of those experiences
Same logic from me still applies. Even if two people experience the same thing, only the one with a bit of intelligence and self-awareness will be able to accurately describe the experience. The human memory is fallible, especially if you're a brainless moron. I would actually expect trans women to more accurately report their experience on average than a good chunk of women.
some cis women are really fucking stupid so it's not a very high bar to clear for me to take someone's opinion seriously
I wouldn't but only cuz I really taint that for myself by being the most malebrained troon possible. So it's not a very good reason cuz plenty of trans women are pretty close to normal women I'm just know I'm not so that gives me pause
No
t. ranny
Assuming the question wasn't specifically do with an area that wouldn't apply to trans women, I would hold responses made by trans women who are on long term HRT and making a reasonable good faith effort to present as women and live that way as equally valid.
Trans women are women isn't a platitude to me.
>Trans women are women isn't a platitude to me.
is "some trans women are women" more of a platitude to you? Are trans women that fulfill the criteria you mentioned women, or you're only taking their answers as valid because they're "women" for all intents and purposes?
I'm not big on gatekeeping, but I think some reasonable bar needs to be set to keep out those very early into their transitions or who would try to be included in bad faith. Particularly in the context of this thread's question.
It depends. If they are passable enough to stealth, then yes. If they are semi-passable like a clocky twinkhon but society (or at least their immediate peers like friend groups and colleagues) treat them as women anyways, then their opinion matters too. The only ones whose opinions definitely shouldn't be considered are those who don't pass at all to the point that nobody in society treats them as women in any capacity and babytroons who are so recently out that they have no experience living as women at all. That's not to say they aren't women. If a cis woman responded but turned out to be a basement-dwelling lunatic who spent all her time reading fujo slash on AO3 then her opinion would be meaningless too.
Also, passing =/= looking like a model. Julia Serano passes, for instance.
How would you compare the ratio between the 2 groups of cis women you mentioned vs the ratio of the 2 groups of trans women
Would you make an assumption between trans and cis women that one is more likely to fall into the "valid opinion" camp than the other? As in, do you think there are just as many absolutely non-passing trans women responding to your question as there are of basement dwelling AO3 reading cis women?
>how would you compare the ratio between...
It don't think the ratio matters. I think you would have to ask the question in a place where people's opinions are relevant to the issue (i.e. making sure that you aren't asking facebook boomers about video game discourse or tiktok college kids about what it was like to be a woman in 2001), and then you would have to vet respondents bios if possible to make sure that you are asking real people and not basement dwellers, political extremists, or people otherwise detached from reality. The trans- or cisness of the two is irrelevant unless we are talking a blatant Chris-Chan-tier nonpasser, a closeted boymoder, or a babytran who has been treated as a girl/woman for less than two years of her life thus far.
>would you make an assumption between trans and cis women that one is more likely...
I think assuming would be ridiculous and it doesn't matter. I also think that it's not just basement-dwelling pornsick legbeards to consider invalid respondents, but really any detached from reality. For instance, the opinion of a mostly-passing 30 y/o mtf waitress on a general "women" question is probably more representative of reality than that of an some trailer boomer who spends her life plugged in and led around by facebook algorithms and her choice of TV news. The opinion of an old cis lady in a nursing home of other people her age matters more than the opinion of a gigahon who spends every waking moment of her life on a discord chat for some niche bullshit. The deciding factors defining the validity of the response are whether or not the person is treated as a woman and whether or not they are connected to reality. Cis/trans doesn't matter except for when assessed the "treated as a woman" part.
>The trans- or cisness of the two is irrelevant unless we are talking a blatant Chris-Chan-tier nonpasser, a closeted boymoder, or a babytran who has been treated as a girl/woman for less than two years of her life thus far.
thats what I mean though. Are those types really so rare on the internet of all places, in comparison with trans women that exert the appropriate resources towards passing? Are you exercising such a non-judgemental attitude on principle or because you truly believe all possibilities as equal or because you simply don't know?
The internet is full of people detached from reality. You have to consider that a sizeable portion of the trans women you encounter online will be freaks and gigahons and that a sizeable portion of the cis women you meet online will be cretins, loons, and ideologues. A greater proportion of the trans women would probably be mentally ill (and thus more likely to be politically extreme, socially deviant, etc.) simply because severe gender dysphoria and social rejection tend to do that to people. On the whole, though, if you asked your question on a normie site with a normal gender distribution and more representative proportion of trans users (i.e. facebook, twitter, etc.) then you would probably get way more cis women whose opinions are irrelevant than you would get trans women in general. Like I said, you would have to vet individual respondents. You could just have a general poll without going through individual responses and push it everywhere, but it would be shit. Dishonesty, trolling, the accidental inclusion of enough non-representative cis women, and simple sampling bias would fuck your results way worse than the presence of a couple trans respondents. At this point, you are conducting sociological surveys instead of asking simple questions online. I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish, but the answer is still "it depends."
Considering that 90% of the trans women on this board are incels who think not getting a gf is just as bad as a system of rape and disempowerment, no.