if the christian God is all knowing why did he create life that he knew would fall to sin?
doesn't the fact that the christian God is all knowing sort of go against the idea that we have free will and thus absolves us of blame for our actions (obviously we do the things that have consequences but considering that our desires and thus actions are out of our control why do we get scorn or praise from the christian god)?
you can argue for a compatibilist view of free will but that's just juggling with semantics, it doesn't address the actual point.
why does the Christian god punish quadrillions and quadrillions of beings and condemn to such horrible conditions for the actions of two people who were tricked?
why did the christian God punish Adam and Eve so harshly? they didn't have any real reason to heed his word over the words of the serpent, why were they expected to just blindly follow doesn't God know the nature of his creations?
why did the Christian God even create life in the first place? why did he take "us" out of non-existence and impose these conditions on us?
If God created you with free will, why don't you just choose not to sin? You do have control over your actions, right? Or are you just mindless automaton?
developments in science and the logic used in christian texts both do seem to imply that we are just biological machines controlled by forces beyond ourselves.
If that's the case, then you should have no objection to anything that happens in life, since no actions are inherently right or wrong.
Correct.
So what's the point of this thread?
>"God is evil for making free will."
"Why don't you choose to be good?"
>"I have no free will."
"Then evil doesn't exist."
>"Correct".
???
you're not replying to the op but i agree with that person.
i made this thread to see if there was an answer that i found satisfactory. everytime i try to discuss these things with people that believe in the Christian God their answers are always vague to the point of seeming nonsensical and they also assume certain aspects of a higher power like objective morality when the line of conversation is question the existence of that higher power.
So do you deny free will?
That last part was mine. I agreed with your proposition. If there is no free will, there is no point rejecting anything, we should affirm all that life throws our way.
>if the christian God is all knowing why did he create life that he knew would fall to sin?
Avoiding sin was obviously not the highest priority.
>doesn't the fact that the christian God is all knowing sort of go against the idea that we have free will
No. Someone else's knowledge doesn't bind you. If I traveled in time and watched you type these words, it would've still be your free choice in doing so.
>semantics
Ironic.
>why does the Christian god punish quadrillions and quadrillions of beings and condemn to such horrible conditions for the actions of two people who were tricked?
Because God's justice is not individualistic, nor should it be.
> were they expected to just blindly follow
Not blindly, no. With awareness.
>why did the christian God punish Adam and Eve so harshly?
It was a harsh crime.
>why did the Christian God even create life in the first place?
To share love.
>Because God's justice is not individualistic, nor should it be.
Yet his judgment of us is individual we’re judged by our own life no one else’s it’s like I can say hey God my grandma was super pious let me get in too
>Yet his judgment of us is individual we’re judged by our own life no one else’s it’s like I can say hey God my grandma was super pious let me get in too
yes the final judgement is but not in terms of Adam because his fall effects the entire world
>we’re judged by our own life no one else’s
Not exactly. If you have a community of saints pray over you, you might be healed of sin after death and get a better "verdict" on judgement day. No man is an island neither in life nor in death.
You are not judged at all by your life, you are judged by the life of Jesus. All you have to do is accept his sacrifice and you are saved.
>All you have to do is accept his sacrifice and you are saved.
Source: people who were saved
How do they know they were saved?
From God.
>No. Someone else's knowledge doesn't bind you. If I traveled in time and watched you type these words, it would've still be your free choice in doing so.
if God is all knowing then that means he knows what we'll do for a fact. or perhaps he just sees all possible paths we can take?
but is that really all knowing? of course the beginning of matter and its movements could be truly random somehow meaning that there are multiple paths we can take at any given time but is that really omniscience? would we say that someone seeing all the numbers in a set of numbers is all-knowing if they don't know what numbers other people will pick?
even just logically speaking how do we choose our own actions without the influence of our genetics and environments? if we can't then that must mean we don't have free will, the things that drive us and thus the actions we perform are out of our control
>even just logically speaking how do we choose our own actions without the influence of our genetics and environments? if we can't then that must mean we don't have free will
how does genetics and environment influencing you effect your ability to choose
how does it not? how do we operate outside of our genetics and environment?
what does this mean? how are we able to defy our genetics and environment? how are we able to choose to be free of vices without the influence of those two things guiding us?
>how does it not? how do we operate outside of our genetics and environment?
because you can't show that it does
that answer can be a applied to a lot of things. simply because i cannot concretely prove that we are fully guided by those things doesn't mean the opposing view is correct.
especially when we consider the evidence supporting the former and latter
you have a position you cannot prove until you do so you are not correct. Simple as
>how are we able to defy
By our nature. Your genetics and environment might make you statistically prone to alcoholism, but they never force you.
yes. i believe it's our environments that do not make our genetics deciding factors for everything.
but we don't really choose our environments, we are born in a place surrounded by people against our will and those experiences and our genetics guide us to other places during our life.
my question still stands i don't understand what controls us besides that
>my question still stands i don't understand what controls us besides that
And I'm answering it - our nature.
Once again, a person genetically prone to addiction born to a family of alcoholics is not forced to alcoholism. If you lock him within nature-nurture dichotomy (where nature is merely genetics), you will have a really tough time processing how come he remained sober and you will have to invent uncontrollable environmental factors to account for it. But I'm not locked in that false dichotomy and neither is the Biblical worldview.
you just completely disregarded my post without actually addressing it...
free will as in the term? at face value i hold a compatibilist view that defines free will as the ability to do what you desire without obstacles.
but when it comes to the amorphous idea of free will most of us have in our heads then i disagree with it, i don't believe we have that kind of free will because all of our desires and thus actions remain out of our control
>you just completely disregarded my post without actually addressing it...
I addressed every single thing down to giving an example of the factors that might be involved and the different paradigms you and I would use in their evaluation. If you are no closer to an answer now than you were in
, perhaps you need other sources on this than LULZ threads.
>I addressed every single thing down to giving an example of the factors that might be involved and the different paradigms you and I would use in their evaluation
except you kinda did disregard my post. it's not difficult to understand how the things one experiences affects their ability.
religion and family bonds are environmental factors that can both be very goof at fighting against addiction.
to me it seems like your post disregards my idea of driving forces because they're uncontrollable and that's unsatisfying to you.
>it's not difficult to understand how the things one experiences affects their ability.
It's not difficult at all. Which is why I addressed it and included it in my answer.
>religion and family bonds are environmental factors that can both be very goof at fighting against addiction.
Granted.
>to me it seems like your post disregards my idea of driving forces because they're uncontrollable and that's unsatisfying to you.
My post doesn't disregard them. I mentioned both these forces in my example:
>>>>>a person genetically (driving force1_ prone to addiction born to a family of alcoholics (driving force 2) is not forced to alcoholism
And I added a third one - our nature. Which, ironically, you have yet to address.
No idea what you think I'm disregarding.
okay, what exactly is nature?
The essence of your body and spirit.
so like a soul?
The soul, just like your body, expresses the nature. It is not the nature itself.
i genuinely have no idea what you're trying to convey can you please elaborate on your line of thinking more? can you please get deeper into this?
Sure. The nature of an acorn pushes it towards becoming the tree. The body expresses this nature in time, given sufficient nutrients. It's the principle according to which that plant exists in the world.
Likewise all humans, who not only have a body but also a soul and spirit, function according to their nature, each seeking expression in their own ways. We have come really close to decode what our bodies tend to express through genetics, the default organizing mechanism of the body, and that is a valid part of the puzzle, but it's barely 1/3 of it. If we were to discover the whole nature we would either have to decode 100% of our genome, our soul and our spirit, or we would have to escape sin and through the Grace of God freely let our nature flow.
well alright if these are the grounds on which this could conversation unfolds i think it's pretty much done, thanks for your thoughts
You're welcome.
Obviously the grounds of Biblical concepts isn't going to unfold on 21st century materialism, I hope you weren't expecting that.
honestly i kind of was expecting it would make some sense from a modern materialist perspective. im not well-versed in theology
I'm afraid very few Biblical things will make sense from a materialist perspective. Exegesis itself is borderline impossible that way. If you remove all non-physical elements from the free will discussion, you are essentially left with:
>Presuming everything behaves like a physical system, does will behave like a physical system?
Which is why it's such an odd and one-sided debate these days. The original meaning is lost.
If all of our actions are out of our control, then free will does not exist. If free will does not exist, why should you complain about sin and suffering? They are, by your own definition, unavoidable obstacles outside of your ability to control.
i talk to others because i don't have the choice not to and because i hope my words will be able to change the way others behave.
i don't believe free will exists but the universe is still consequential.
>so you're here shitposting because you are a soulless meatbag with no choice, but you hope that your being here (which was not your choice) will change the behavior of others who also have no choice?
>if God is all knowing then that means he knows what we'll do for a fact. or perhaps he just sees all possible paths we can take?
Both. He sees all possible paths and knows which one you'll chose.
>could be truly random
Free will has nothing to do with randomness or unpredictability. It's a freedom from passions and sin.
>even just logically speaking how do we choose our own actions without the influence of our genetics and environments?
By our nature.
רָ֑ע (rā‘)
't the fact that the christian God is all knowing sort of go against the idea that we have free will
>No. Someone else's knowledge doesn't bind you. If I traveled in time and watched you type these words, it would've still be your free choice in doing so.
This implies determinism though. If God can know what will happen then so can we with enough information and we could eventually have someone's entire life written down in a book before they are even born
Why did God allow Satan into the garden of Eden knowing what would happen?
Why does God punish animals (who are incapable of sin) with the same punishments humans get?
Why does God allow blessings and miracles to happen within other religions if Christianity is the one true religion? Is it some kind of shit test?
Why does God let demons influence our lives and then punish us for being influenced by demons?
>why did the Christian God even create life in the first place? why did he take "us" out of non-existence and impose these conditions on us?
He was bored. Humanity is God's shitpost. And he's probably up there, laughing about us.
Captcha: JWHJ24
>if the christian God is all knowing why did he create life that he knew would fall to sin?
Because part of being loving is wanting to share that love with others.
>doesn't the fact that the christian God is all knowing sort of go against the idea that we have free will and thus absolves us of blame for our actions
no it doesn't, having knowledge of what will happen has no barring on our ability to choose.
>but considering that our desires and thus actions are out of our control why do we get scorn or praise from the christian god)?
we can't chose not to sin but we can stop ourselves from sinning more. This is why we need to both control our actions and repent for our sins
>why does the Christian god punish quadrillions and quadrillions of beings and condemn to such horrible conditions for the actions of two people who were tricked?
he doesn't, we chose to either be with him or not and he will respect that choice.
>why did the christian God punish Adam and Eve so harshly? they didn't have any real reason to heed his word over the words of the serpent, why were they expected to just blindly follow doesn't God know the nature of his creations?
he told them not to eat of the tree and they moved against that
>why did the Christian God even create life in the first place? why did he take "us" out of non-existence and impose these conditions on us?
Because part of being loving is wanting to share that love with others.
Isaiah 45:7
>I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
The God of the Bible call himself the creator of sin. It's therefore only natural that he would desire for man to fall into sin so as to experience the totality of the Divine's creation.
Evil is not a proper translation. Isaiah uses the term in far less cosmic/ontological contexts. Especially here where it's contrasted with peace.
God did not create sin.
What do the Hebrew texts say?
but God is the creator of everything, if he stands at the top of the hierarchy of everything with his omniscience then surely he must've created everything if he knows everything
sin and evil aren't created things
What are they, then? The Word outright says God created evil.
No, it doesn't outright say that. Isaiah uses the term as calamity and unrest. Which is why he contrasts it with peace/wellbeing.
NKJV and NIV say calamity / disaster
so no it doesn't and this isn't even taking into about the theology behind evil not being something created
He did create everything. Evil just doesn't have ontological being. It's a technical answer to a technical question, don't be surprised if it comes across as nitpicky.
God is retarded
I guess he decided that his beings need to be "filtered" by their actions first after seeing how easily they are tricked.
For the lulz
Religions are outdated anyway and the future of spirituality lies in NDEs as they are eternal and will go to heaven unconditionally when we die. And NDErs talk about how there is no such thing as hell or sin. Indeed, NDEs are irrefutable proof of life after death, because anyone can have them if they come close to and survive death. And they are so undeniably real to those who have them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U00ibBGZp7o
As this NDEr described their NDE:
>"I saw how life never ends. I remembered the process of reincarnation is endless, wonderful and truly eternal. I witnessed my own spiritual evolution and saw that I had existed long before this present incarnation (where I am now a male human). For me, watching the process of living life, after life, after life unfold, was mind-blowing! I undeniably observed that I had lived an innumerable amount of lives. My NDE clearly showed me that these bodies (we now inhabit) are not the first and only time we have existed! I saw that our soul and spirit is ancient! I also observed that there is no such thing as death."
And importantly, even dogmatic skeptics have this reaction, because the NDE convinces everyone:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mysteries-consciousness/202204/does-afterlife-obviously-exist
So anyone would be convinced if they had an NDE, we already know this, no one's skepticism is unique. And the book in pic related is known to convince even hardened skeptics that there is an afterlife.
>muh brain chemistry
Neuroscientists are convinced by NDEs too. What do skeptics think they understand that neuroscientists do not?
>muh DMT causes it
Scientifically refuted already, and NDErs who have done DMT too say that the DMT experience, while alien and really cool and fun, was still underwhelming to the point of being a joke when compared to the NDE.