I used to use Debian derivatives, and honestly I still think they're some of highest quality beginner distros out there, but after using Debian, I just can't use them again. Why have Mint or Ubuntu when you can just have Debian with GNOME or Cinnamon with an orange/green theme and some user-friendly utilities installed?
of theme unironically used as a pro argument
That's literally what Ubuntu and Mint is though. A theme put on top of Debian GNOME and Debian Cinnamon. They both use apt and even use downstream packages from Debian. There is very minimal difference between Debian and Ubuntu/Mint, apart from what repos you want to use and what packages you want to start out with. The biggest reason why you would want to use Debian instead is starting out with less packages.
At what point does a fork become its own distro then?
Apart from both Debian and Ubuntu/Mint using apt, as you said they've got their own repositories, and Mint has a bunch of software and tools they develop, some of which have found their way to other distros too.
>a lot more people use xfce and mate than cinnamon
What makes you say that? Just guessing or are there official numbers anywhere?
I remember seeing statistics about the market share of desktop environments somewhere, though they could be from polls.
Obviously Gnome and KDE lead by a very large margin, but I recall that xfce was still popular.
Honestly I don't see the appeal other than nostalgia, Cinnamon is much better in every way.
Cinnamon is alright but definitely loses to KDE in some areas >KDE start menu is better >Dolphin is much better than Nemo >KDE has more robust customization >some utilities (e.g. Ark) are better than the ones on Mint >Mint has some dumb issue where you have to look up a terminal command to change the cursor because doing it through the settings menu doesn't fully change it
Having used KDE more extensively now, it's obvious that a lot more people are working on it and that Cinnamon is lagging behind in comparison. What saves it is the logical and sensible default experience.
On Windows I have to install third party software like 7 taskbar tweaker and change a ton of settings to get it to work the way I want it to, and it's the same with KDE. But Cinnamon just fits like a glove.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
I don't get why the default should be the deciding factor. If you can spend less than an hour getting a superior desktop with non-ideal defaults just the way you like it, it's better than getting an inferior desktop with good defaults, no?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Good defaults are important for newer users, Ubuntu uses Gnome and doesn't even have a GUI option for disabling mouse acceleration without extensions or using the terminal, which is pretty retarded.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Yeah supposedly that's fixed in GNOME 44, guhnome is truly atrociously designed. If the defaults are addressed using an easy settings menu then it's no big deal. It's more of a problem when you have to install separate software (e.g. GNOME tweaks) and third-party extensions.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Yeah supposedly that's fixed in GNOME 44
Until it breaks again. That's something that drove me away from GNOME. I wanted to change a particular setting that was broken, so I found a workaround. It was fixed in the next version, but then broke again a few versions later, and this time the workaround no longer worked.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>I don't get why the default should be the deciding factor
The default setting is how the developer expects others to use their software. A default configuration that satisfies most users and needs little adjustment for others to feel comfortable with it shows that the developers are aware of their users and listen to their suggestions. Mint and Cinammon are examples of good default settings because most people's experience with the OS is "install and use" without having to make too many additional settings, and in most cases where a setting is needed, it is just a click away.
GNOME, on the other hand, is constantly criticised for having very poor default settings due to the large amount of changes the end-user has to make and the continued use of third-party extensions to add features that are not available in the vanilla desktop. KDE has also been accused of the same, albeit for other reasons. The desktop and most of the programs that complement it are considered "too advanced" because of the sheer number of settings they offer within their many submenus within submenus. This colossal level of customisation appeals to "more technical" users who know how to undo any changes, but becomes overwhelming for the average user.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
fuck off chatgpt
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Rude. That text came from my own mind. I only used Deepl to adapt some parts that were difficult to translate from my original language.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Good post, please post it on r/gnome
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
I don't like Reddot, but you are free to repurpose my post for your own deeds.
Debian's great because it's modular and non-derivative. You can make your own Ubuntu/Mint-like environment without having to unsnap or submit yourself to a distro that relies on another's codebase. As you said, even Mint's own packages can be used on Debian so there's very little reason to use it if you're someone who likes tinkering with every little bit of their system but still want a stable and reliable OS.
Outside of having a ton of preinstalled packages OOTB on Ubuntu and Mint, some people use it just because the packages are a bit more modern than Debian's, but Debian also has Sid/Testing, backports, and things like Flatpak and Nix to get updated versions of software, so there's really not that much difference between Debian/Ubuntu/Mint except Debian being less bloated and more stable due to not being derivative of itself.
I don't think Debian contributes much to the Desktop. Debian is more of a package collector and that's not what I'm looking for in an OS. Ubuntu pre-2015 did a lot for the desktop but apparently they gave up and focused on servers. Only mint if you want to create a desktop and make small quality of life improvements.
I like it for non gaming non software computers. Had some problems with controllers in the past because it had a out of date driver. Also a KDE version to have a choice beside XFCE would be nice.
I really hate to say "it just werks" but is kinda just does. I use it as my daily and game on it. I keep wanting to maybe hop and try something else but I'm comfy.
I love Mint but Cinnamon is stuck with xorg, and the lack of wayland support is a deal breaker, also Mint KDE edition no longer exists, so I had to move on.
When Mint will adopt Wayland, it will be a sign that Xorg is dead - morraly, legaly, technichaly. There is no going back. That is why they still hold with their desicion, they wouldn't be Mint other way.
You can play your games in a sandbox, but at the end of a day, everyone is looking at Ceasar's thumb. Mint is the linux Undertaker, that why it is respected.
I disagree with that idea, Mint isn't that influential. And a lot more people use xfce and mate than cinnamon, and neither is getting wayland support anytime soon.
I've used Mint as my main OS since 2013 till I got a new (used) laptop this year, I've even contributed to the project with a lot of translation work.
However, I really need the benefits Wayland brings. I need to be able to use dual monitors with different refresh rates and DPI.
Right now I'm on OpenSUSE Tumbleweed with KDE, I still prefer Cinnamon, but man is KDE on Wayland smooth as butter.
Adding Wayland support to Cinnamon should be the top priority for the Mint team, and I hope I'll be able to go back "home" soon.
You got it wrong. That anon called Mint "the undertaker" because Mint's philosophy is not to change things until the advantages of the new ideas are much greater than that of the old ideas (or until the old ideas are no longer sustainable). According to this anon, Mint's adoption of Wayland will be a sign that Wayland is at a point of maturity such that it can fully replace Xorg and perform its functions without breaking too much of the usual workflow.
I need to be able to use dual monitors with different refresh rates and DPI.
Cinnamon "can" use fractional scaling, but it's a hack and kills performance.
Xorg can set monitors at different refresh rates, but the GUI runs at the slowest refresh rate of all monitors.
It's not too shabby. I use Mint on a cheapo small laptop that I take with me on vacations. And I use Ubuntu Server on a machine I use to stake Ethereum.
Honestly speaking, I don't use anything else for my work os, it just fucking works OOTB and without any bullshit unlike ubuntu, and it's fucking modded ubuntu.
Not joking, I've tried ubuntu and it just was an error after an error, when I got a new machine I installed mint and it just worked without errors or anything.
I shouldn't say this, but that rant is a decade old by now, I refuse to believe mint is on the same state as when that was written.
Plus the fact that he tells updates are unpredictable meaning that they'll break the os isn't true now, I've been using the same installation for months of 21.1 and now updated to 21.2 and nothing has been broken during that time, the shell hasn't broken on me like on ubuntu, and I haven't had to manually intervene into something not working as it should from on reboot to another.
>I've tried ubuntu and it just was an error after an error
Getting pic related at first boot on a fresh install is a certified Ubuntu moment
kek, this.
I recently installed linux after a couple of years not using it and the same happened, error immediately on first boot.
Shortly after the power in my house went out for 2 seconds and ubuntu wouldn't boot after that.
Installed mint on my desktop for hassle-free experience and endeavour on my old thinkpad to try it out.
I think Gnome is on the right path. But I will not use Gnome and KDE both, so my opinion doesn't matter. In fact, any DE that needs CSS and JS to work should be shot behind the nearest 7/11 parking lot.
Personally, I find MX Linux's theming ugly as fuck on every edition, and the way they rig Distrowatch's ratings to be in first place is kinda scummy, so IMO go for Mint unless you like KDE (Mint has KDE in its repos, but the DE is not endorsed by them) or prefer MX's semi-rolling release aplroach over Mint's LTS nature.
I've had LM on my laptop since 2014 and it's always been good to me. Now for my desktop I'm currently in the process of testing LMDE to see if I can do my normal use cases on Windows so I can finally switch. So far so good but I'm going to have to waste space dual booting since I have a WMR headset that requires Windows.
I tried Zorin but I kept running into issues where the entire system freezes just by alt tabbing between apps. I also tried base debian, but I kept running into audio issues that for some reason works on LMDE. I tried Peppermint OS as well but it was too minimal for me but everything worked like LMDE.
it's pretty comfy, just works
>still doesnt have working audio on geminilake chromebooks
You take your working distro and git on outta here. Go on, git!
I used to use Debian derivatives, and honestly I still think they're some of highest quality beginner distros out there, but after using Debian, I just can't use them again. Why have Mint or Ubuntu when you can just have Debian with GNOME or Cinnamon with an orange/green theme and some user-friendly utilities installed?
Cuz then you gotta use "testing" repo to get packages that aren't super duper out of date by the end of the release lifecycle.
You can use stable backports. I got it on Bookworm and my kernel is now at 6.4. It just werks.
arent all the debian derivatives using flatpak or snap (ubuntu) anyway?
Mint completely disables snap and makes it difficult to reinstall it.
You're free to use flatpak if you wish.
>color of theme unironically used as a pro argument
For fucks sake nobody cares about "personalisation"
of theme unironically used as a pro argument
That's literally what Ubuntu and Mint is though. A theme put on top of Debian GNOME and Debian Cinnamon. They both use apt and even use downstream packages from Debian. There is very minimal difference between Debian and Ubuntu/Mint, apart from what repos you want to use and what packages you want to start out with. The biggest reason why you would want to use Debian instead is starting out with less packages.
At what point does a fork become its own distro then?
Apart from both Debian and Ubuntu/Mint using apt, as you said they've got their own repositories, and Mint has a bunch of software and tools they develop, some of which have found their way to other distros too.
I remember seeing statistics about the market share of desktop environments somewhere, though they could be from polls.
Obviously Gnome and KDE lead by a very large margin, but I recall that xfce was still popular.
Honestly I don't see the appeal other than nostalgia, Cinnamon is much better in every way.
Cinnamon is alright but definitely loses to KDE in some areas
>KDE start menu is better
>Dolphin is much better than Nemo
>KDE has more robust customization
>some utilities (e.g. Ark) are better than the ones on Mint
>Mint has some dumb issue where you have to look up a terminal command to change the cursor because doing it through the settings menu doesn't fully change it
Having used KDE more extensively now, it's obvious that a lot more people are working on it and that Cinnamon is lagging behind in comparison. What saves it is the logical and sensible default experience.
On Windows I have to install third party software like 7 taskbar tweaker and change a ton of settings to get it to work the way I want it to, and it's the same with KDE. But Cinnamon just fits like a glove.
I don't get why the default should be the deciding factor. If you can spend less than an hour getting a superior desktop with non-ideal defaults just the way you like it, it's better than getting an inferior desktop with good defaults, no?
Good defaults are important for newer users, Ubuntu uses Gnome and doesn't even have a GUI option for disabling mouse acceleration without extensions or using the terminal, which is pretty retarded.
Yeah supposedly that's fixed in GNOME 44, guhnome is truly atrociously designed. If the defaults are addressed using an easy settings menu then it's no big deal. It's more of a problem when you have to install separate software (e.g. GNOME tweaks) and third-party extensions.
>Yeah supposedly that's fixed in GNOME 44
Until it breaks again. That's something that drove me away from GNOME. I wanted to change a particular setting that was broken, so I found a workaround. It was fixed in the next version, but then broke again a few versions later, and this time the workaround no longer worked.
>I don't get why the default should be the deciding factor
The default setting is how the developer expects others to use their software. A default configuration that satisfies most users and needs little adjustment for others to feel comfortable with it shows that the developers are aware of their users and listen to their suggestions. Mint and Cinammon are examples of good default settings because most people's experience with the OS is "install and use" without having to make too many additional settings, and in most cases where a setting is needed, it is just a click away.
GNOME, on the other hand, is constantly criticised for having very poor default settings due to the large amount of changes the end-user has to make and the continued use of third-party extensions to add features that are not available in the vanilla desktop. KDE has also been accused of the same, albeit for other reasons. The desktop and most of the programs that complement it are considered "too advanced" because of the sheer number of settings they offer within their many submenus within submenus. This colossal level of customisation appeals to "more technical" users who know how to undo any changes, but becomes overwhelming for the average user.
fuck off chatgpt
Rude. That text came from my own mind. I only used Deepl to adapt some parts that were difficult to translate from my original language.
Good post, please post it on r/gnome
I don't like Reddot, but you are free to repurpose my post for your own deeds.
Debian's great because it's modular and non-derivative. You can make your own Ubuntu/Mint-like environment without having to unsnap or submit yourself to a distro that relies on another's codebase. As you said, even Mint's own packages can be used on Debian so there's very little reason to use it if you're someone who likes tinkering with every little bit of their system but still want a stable and reliable OS.
Outside of having a ton of preinstalled packages OOTB on Ubuntu and Mint, some people use it just because the packages are a bit more modern than Debian's, but Debian also has Sid/Testing, backports, and things like Flatpak and Nix to get updated versions of software, so there's really not that much difference between Debian/Ubuntu/Mint except Debian being less bloated and more stable due to not being derivative of itself.
I don't think Debian contributes much to the Desktop. Debian is more of a package collector and that's not what I'm looking for in an OS. Ubuntu pre-2015 did a lot for the desktop but apparently they gave up and focused on servers. Only mint if you want to create a desktop and make small quality of life improvements.
Upvoted. Nice post, OP.
For me, it's Pop OS, but Mint is pretty cool too.
i never tried pop os cos the name was too gay
Pop Shop has been a broken mess for years and I consider that fucking disgusting. Unacceptable. FUCK System76.
>Mint on laptop
>Arch on desktop
this has been my standard configuration for years now and I've found it to be very comfortable
Just use Debian.
I like it for non gaming non software computers. Had some problems with controllers in the past because it had a out of date driver. Also a KDE version to have a choice beside XFCE would be nice.
I really hate to say "it just werks" but is kinda just does. I use it as my daily and game on it. I keep wanting to maybe hop and try something else but I'm comfy.
I love Mint but Cinnamon is stuck with xorg, and the lack of wayland support is a deal breaker, also Mint KDE edition no longer exists, so I had to move on.
When Mint will adopt Wayland, it will be a sign that Xorg is dead - morraly, legaly, technichaly. There is no going back. That is why they still hold with their desicion, they wouldn't be Mint other way.
You can play your games in a sandbox, but at the end of a day, everyone is looking at Ceasar's thumb. Mint is the linux Undertaker, that why it is respected.
I disagree with that idea, Mint isn't that influential. And a lot more people use xfce and mate than cinnamon, and neither is getting wayland support anytime soon.
I've used Mint as my main OS since 2013 till I got a new (used) laptop this year, I've even contributed to the project with a lot of translation work.
However, I really need the benefits Wayland brings. I need to be able to use dual monitors with different refresh rates and DPI.
Right now I'm on OpenSUSE Tumbleweed with KDE, I still prefer Cinnamon, but man is KDE on Wayland smooth as butter.
Adding Wayland support to Cinnamon should be the top priority for the Mint team, and I hope I'll be able to go back "home" soon.
Its not about influence, more like the opposite. When wayland is ready as in "ready", mint will bring it.
>a lot more people use xfce and mate than cinnamon
What makes you say that? Just guessing or are there official numbers anywhere?
yeah brother, KDE/Wayland is decent even on NVIDIA. I think ill snag a 200 dollar AMD card and see if there's a difference
You got it wrong. That anon called Mint "the undertaker" because Mint's philosophy is not to change things until the advantages of the new ideas are much greater than that of the old ideas (or until the old ideas are no longer sustainable). According to this anon, Mint's adoption of Wayland will be a sign that Wayland is at a point of maturity such that it can fully replace Xorg and perform its functions without breaking too much of the usual workflow.
What exactly do you NEED gayland for?
I need to be able to use dual monitors with different refresh rates and DPI.
Cinnamon "can" use fractional scaling, but it's a hack and kills performance.
Xorg can set monitors at different refresh rates, but the GUI runs at the slowest refresh rate of all monitors.
Good for you anon. I'm on mint since december and it's been a very good os for me.
>"I'm on mint since december"
>It's still September
B-bros... How does he do it?
>doing actual work on your computer
why does it make people seethe I don't understand
It's not too shabby. I use Mint on a cheapo small laptop that I take with me on vacations. And I use Ubuntu Server on a machine I use to stake Ethereum.
Honestly speaking, I don't use anything else for my work os, it just fucking works OOTB and without any bullshit unlike ubuntu, and it's fucking modded ubuntu.
Not joking, I've tried ubuntu and it just was an error after an error, when I got a new machine I installed mint and it just worked without errors or anything.
>I've tried ubuntu and it just was an error after an error
Getting pic related at first boot on a fresh install is a certified Ubuntu moment
Mint has the same errors, if not more. It just ignores/hides them instead of notifying the user.
I shouldn't say this, but that rant is a decade old by now, I refuse to believe mint is on the same state as when that was written.
Plus the fact that he tells updates are unpredictable meaning that they'll break the os isn't true now, I've been using the same installation for months of 21.1 and now updated to 21.2 and nothing has been broken during that time, the shell hasn't broken on me like on ubuntu, and I haven't had to manually intervene into something not working as it should from on reboot to another.
kek, this.
I recently installed linux after a couple of years not using it and the same happened, error immediately on first boot.
Shortly after the power in my house went out for 2 seconds and ubuntu wouldn't boot after that.
Installed mint on my desktop for hassle-free experience and endeavour on my old thinkpad to try it out.
For me, it's Pop!_OS
Mint FTW
i like its desktop environment on nixos
post Mint desktops
What menu is that?
CinnVIIStarkMenu
try arch btw.
I think Gnome is on the right path. But I will not use Gnome and KDE both, so my opinion doesn't matter. In fact, any DE that needs CSS and JS to work should be shot behind the nearest 7/11 parking lot.
</blog>
mint is really comfy
Not only you, OP. I like it comfiness too
cool it with the antisemitism
Great distro, set it up for my parents
This image have convinced me to try out Mint
for some reason the green color is hotter
Should I go with Mint or MX linux? Thinking of getting a Starlite laptop and don't know which distro to get.
Personally, I find MX Linux's theming ugly as fuck on every edition, and the way they rig Distrowatch's ratings to be in first place is kinda scummy, so IMO go for Mint unless you like KDE (Mint has KDE in its repos, but the DE is not endorsed by them) or prefer MX's semi-rolling release aplroach over Mint's LTS nature.
>they rig Distrowatch's ratings to be in first place is kinda scummy
plz elaborate
I've had LM on my laptop since 2014 and it's always been good to me. Now for my desktop I'm currently in the process of testing LMDE to see if I can do my normal use cases on Windows so I can finally switch. So far so good but I'm going to have to waste space dual booting since I have a WMR headset that requires Windows.
I tried Zorin but I kept running into issues where the entire system freezes just by alt tabbing between apps. I also tried base debian, but I kept running into audio issues that for some reason works on LMDE. I tried Peppermint OS as well but it was too minimal for me but everything worked like LMDE.
>Debian with GNOME or Cinnamon
Linux is all about what DE you use. so it doesnt matter what distro you use as long as it doesnt break
what’s the best non pozzed, non spyware Linux distribution?
>non pozzed, non spyware Linux distribution
basically all of them, just avoid the ones owned by for-profit organizations for good measure
so I guess mint should be fine
didn't linux mint get haxed, in the ass, once???