How were they so accurate at guessing before genetic tools existed that the original Aryans were closest to northern Europeans?

How were they so accurate at guessing before genetic tools existed that the original Aryans were closest to northern Europeans?

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  1. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    These guys were Tocharians.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      That's a andronvo sample/indo iranians, pic related is a tocharian.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        Proto-Tocharian most likely. The tocharians from the middle ages won't resemble them.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        That's Afanasievo of Mongolia who are not ancestral to Tocharians.

        Iranians. Tocharians won't look like that.

        Tocharians did look like that.

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          Afansaievo was the most likely ancestor of tocharians

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Not genetically the Afanasievo weren't.

            Even the iron age samples from that region don't look like that anymore. And tocharians are known from middle ages.

            It doesn't matter. The Tocharians and proto-Tocharians looked like the populations in OP's pic.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            No. These samples show up only in andronovo related lba graves.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            They show up everywhere including places where andronovo isn't.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Afanseivo were tocharians

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Genetically there is evidence they were not related.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            What evidence?

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Tocharian samples do not match Afansievo samples.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            There are no tocharian samples. By iron age none of them looked like op anyway and tocharians were first attested in the middle ages.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            There are dozens of samples from Tocharian sites. None of them match with Afansievo but there are matches with Andronovo.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            What tocharians sites?

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Wutulan and others.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Wutulun aren't tocharians, they are all andronovo/iranic

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Wutulan were Tocharians. Andronvo wasn't Iranic either.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Andronovo was entirely iranic, tocharians showed similarities with hallsatt culture that wasnt present in any of the andronovo sites but was present in afansevo.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Andronovo was pre Indo-Iranic.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            No, it was entirely iranic

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Andronovo wasnt pre-Iranic either

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Tocharians have nothing to do with any hallstatt.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >Wutulan were Tocharians
            they were Scythians or other Iranics not Tocharians

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            What tocharian samples?

            I don't know how can you tell this. The region was inhabited by both tocharians and iranians. And these guys look like iranians.

            Iranics looked more northern european

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >Tocharian samples do not match Afansievo samples.
            there are no Tocharian samples

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Because he’s talking out of his ass, like every other brown shill here

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >Wutulan were Tocharians
            they were Scythians or other Iranics not Tocharians

            Because he’s talking out of his ass, like every other brown shill here

            moron cope

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            I don't know how can you tell this. The region was inhabited by both tocharians and iranians. And these guys look like iranians.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Tocharians inhabited the Tarim Basin. They did have a resemblance to andronovo.

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          Even the iron age samples from that region don't look like that anymore. And tocharians are known from middle ages.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      Iranians. Tocharians won't look like that.

  2. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    I don't know why you play this moronic game. You know it's wrong and you know that steppe mlba were iranians. And these late bronze age sanples are similar to them. You alsno know if you played with models that all iron age xinjiang samples have additional east asian and/or iranian (bmac/farmer) ancestry. So what's the point of this thread?

  3. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Tocharians could be only afanasievo. Dzungarian samples are a mix of afanasievo, east asians and ba tarim. Dzungaria is in xinjiang, north of tarim. It's hardly a wild guess to imagine them moving south and settling there.

  4. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Thread full of we wuzzers/appropriators

  5. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Indo-Iranians are the least interesting ethnolinguistic group ever

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      You sure?

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        Positive

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          Are those fine gentlemen Persians?

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Indians, Jats maybe. Jats have more steppe ancestry than people from Germany.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            They don't have more steppe ancestry than germans.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Yes they do.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            More than the French at least

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            "Steppe ancestry" is not Andronovo or even South Yamnaya. It's the whole of Yamnaya migratory pool and essentially what you're saying is impossible, since Germans are Celto-Slavo-Germanic mutts. So all primarily Corded Ware people, whereas Indians are 20% Indo-Aryan to begin with, IAs being already somewhat mixed in Central Asia.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Jats still have more of it than Germans and French

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            You don't know what "it" is. IAs are descendants of Yamnaya completely through Corded Ware. You can't out Corded Ware the Corded Ware. "Steppe" just means IAs in your chart, most likely.

            only other possibility is that this counts some Afanasievo ascendance, which is non-Vedic.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            'It' is Steppe_EMBA

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            It's not possible for any Indians to be 40% steppe EMBA

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            troony tier cope

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Pretty sure Jats would plot closer to the Euros if that were true

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Dumbass pajeet

            Much like how you will never be a woman, facts will never care about your feelings

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            ok Onge cuck

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous
          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Dumbass pajeet

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous
          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Germany has some Roman ancestry too iirc

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            nice asspull

  6. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    WE WUZ LITERALLY HYPERBOREANS AND SHIEET

  7. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    REMINDER THAT TOCHARIANS WERE RELATED TO ITALO-CELTS R1B AND LIKELY INTRODUCED THE YIN-YANG SYMBOL TO CHINA. THE OLDEST INSTANCES OF THE SYMBOL ARE FOUND IN EUROPE

    WE WUZ LAO TZU AND SHIEET

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      It wasn't. If anything it was related to Yamnaya Z2103 (probably Anatolian and Graeco-Armenian).

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        How did it get to Ireland?

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          Phoenicians

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          Posting all I have

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Phoenicians

            They didn't have it

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous
          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous
          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            I'm haplogroup I1 and have always identified with cavemen. Anyone here feel like a caveman in a modern world?

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Everyone's a caveman if you think about it

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Yeah, that's true, but I feel like extra caveman

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            You probably shouldn't as I1 became dominant in Scandinavians when their culture became more sophisticated.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Where did I1 come from? Wiki and Google kind of give this vague arrived thousands of years ago and then mutated answer.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            It was in Europe, but in low numbers. Where the Scandinavian I1 came from is not known. But it became the main Nordic Bronze Age lineage.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Interesting. Wonder why it appears as late as the Nordic Bronze Age.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Here's some infor from an unpublished study that focuses on ancient South Scandinavia.

            1. An early stage between ~4,600 BP and 4,300 BP, where Scandinavians cluster with early
            673 CWC individuals from Eastern Europe, rich in Steppe-related ancestry and males with an R1a Y674 chromosomal haplotype

            2. an intermediate stage until c. 3,800 BP,
            675 where they cluster with central and western Europeans dominated by males with distinct sub676 lineages of R1b-L5
            and includes Danish
            677 individuals from Borreby (NEO735, 737) and Madesø (NEO752) with distinct cranial features

            3. a final stage from c. 3,800 BP onwards, where a distinct cluster of
            679 Scandinavian individuals dominated by males with I1 Y-haplogroups appears (Extended Data Fig.
            680 8E). Using individuals associated with this cluster (Scandinavia_4000BP_3000BP) as sources in
            681 supervised ancestry modelling (see “postBA”, Extended Data Fig. 4), we find that it forms the
            682 predominant source for later Iron- and Viking Age Scandinavians, as well as ancient European
            683 groups outside Scandinavia who have a documented Scandinavian or Germanic association

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            About I1.
            Y-chromosome haplogroup I1 is one of the dominant
            685 haplogroups in present-day Scandinavians,s, and we document its earliest occurrence in a ~4,000-
            686 year-old individual from Falköping in southern Sweden (NEO220). The rapid expansion of this
            687 haplogroup and associated genome-wide ancestry in the early Nordic Bronze Age indicates a
            688 considerable reproductive advantage of individuals associated with this cluster over the preceding
            689 groups across large parts of Scandinavia.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >Although the overall population genomic signatures suggest genetic stability, patterns of pairwise IBD-sharing and Y-chromosome haplogroup distributions indicate at least three distinct ancestry phases during a ~1,000-year time span: i) An early stage between ~4,600 BP and 4,300 BP, where Scandinavians cluster with early CWC individuals from Eastern Europe, rich in Steppe-related ancestry and males with an R1a Y674 chromosomal haplotype (Extended Data Fig. 8A, ; ii)

            >an intermediate stage until c. 3,800 BP, where they cluster with central and western Europeans dominated by males with distinct sub lineages of R1b-L51 (Extended Data Fig. 8C, D; Supplementary Note 3b) and includes Danish individuals from Borreby (NEO735, 737) and Madesø (NEO752) with distinct cranial features (Supplementary Note 6);

            >and iii) a final stage from c. 3,800 BP onwards, where a distinct cluster of Scandinavian individuals dominated by males with I1 Y-haplogroups appears (Extended Data Fig.
            680 8E). Using individuals associated with this cluster (Scandinavia_4000BP_3000BP) as sources in supervised ancestry modelling (see “postBA”, Extended Data Fig. 4), we find that it forms the predominant source for later Iron- and Viking Age Scandinavians, as well as ancient European groups outside Scandinavia who have a documented Scandinavian or Germanic association (e.g., Anglo-Saxons, Goths; Extended Data Fig. 4). Y-chromosome haplogroup I1 is one of the dominant haplogroups in present-day Scandinavians,s, and we document its earliest occurrence in a ~4,000- year-old individual from Falköping in southern Sweden (NEO220). The rapid expansion of this haplogroup and associated genome-wide ancestry in the early Nordic Bronze Age indicates a considerable reproductive advantage of individuals associated with this cluster over the preceding groups across large parts of Scandinavia.

            https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.05.04.490594v2

            other anon got there first I see

            The latest big paper had some info about that

            Finally, we investigated the fine-scale genetic structure in southern Scandinavia after the introduction of Steppe-related ancestry using a temporal transect of 38 Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age Danish and southern Swedish individuals.

            Here's some infor from an unpublished study that focuses on ancient South Scandinavia.

            1. An early stage between ~4,600 BP and 4,300 BP, where Scandinavians cluster with early
            673 CWC individuals from Eastern Europe, rich in Steppe-related ancestry and males with an R1a Y674 chromosomal haplotype

            2. an intermediate stage until c. 3,800 BP,
            675 where they cluster with central and western Europeans dominated by males with distinct sub676 lineages of R1b-L5
            and includes Danish
            677 individuals from Borreby (NEO735, 737) and Madesø (NEO752) with distinct cranial features

            3. a final stage from c. 3,800 BP onwards, where a distinct cluster of
            679 Scandinavian individuals dominated by males with I1 Y-haplogroups appears (Extended Data Fig.
            680 8E). Using individuals associated with this cluster (Scandinavia_4000BP_3000BP) as sources in
            681 supervised ancestry modelling (see “postBA”, Extended Data Fig. 4), we find that it forms the
            682 predominant source for later Iron- and Viking Age Scandinavians, as well as ancient European
            683 groups outside Scandinavia who have a documented Scandinavian or Germanic association

            Can anyone summarize these findings for me? Not sure what precisely all this means

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            It became common through elite dominance in the Scandi bronze age and spread to other places when Germanics invaded the rest of Europe

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            What this guy said

            It was in Europe, but in low numbers. Where the Scandinavian I1 came from is not known. But it became the main Nordic Bronze Age lineage.

            Most likely it was from Denmark or Sweden in very low frequency prior to NBA

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            It became common through elite dominance in the Scandi bronze age and spread to other places when Germanics invaded the rest of Europe

            How does it work here the elite knew they were I1? Did they just stick together as a family and breed like rabbits? Just curious, please humor me.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >one man becomes king
            >he has a lot of children
            >his haplogroup becomes common
            https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/09/commoner-or-elite.html

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            I would love a genetic profile of I1-M253

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            it's probably just one or a few elite families and snowballed with subsequent generations + population boom.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            The latest big paper had some info about that

            Finally, we investigated the fine-scale genetic structure in southern Scandinavia after the introduction of Steppe-related ancestry using a temporal transect of 38 Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age Danish and southern Swedish individuals.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >Although the overall population genomic signatures suggest genetic stability, patterns of pairwise IBD-sharing and Y-chromosome haplogroup distributions indicate at least three distinct ancestry phases during a ~1,000-year time span: i) An early stage between ~4,600 BP and 4,300 BP, where Scandinavians cluster with early CWC individuals from Eastern Europe, rich in Steppe-related ancestry and males with an R1a Y674 chromosomal haplotype (Extended Data Fig. 8A, ; ii)

            >an intermediate stage until c. 3,800 BP, where they cluster with central and western Europeans dominated by males with distinct sub lineages of R1b-L51 (Extended Data Fig. 8C, D; Supplementary Note 3b) and includes Danish individuals from Borreby (NEO735, 737) and Madesø (NEO752) with distinct cranial features (Supplementary Note 6);

            >and iii) a final stage from c. 3,800 BP onwards, where a distinct cluster of Scandinavian individuals dominated by males with I1 Y-haplogroups appears (Extended Data Fig.
            680 8E). Using individuals associated with this cluster (Scandinavia_4000BP_3000BP) as sources in supervised ancestry modelling (see “postBA”, Extended Data Fig. 4), we find that it forms the predominant source for later Iron- and Viking Age Scandinavians, as well as ancient European groups outside Scandinavia who have a documented Scandinavian or Germanic association (e.g., Anglo-Saxons, Goths; Extended Data Fig. 4). Y-chromosome haplogroup I1 is one of the dominant haplogroups in present-day Scandinavians,s, and we document its earliest occurrence in a ~4,000- year-old individual from Falköping in southern Sweden (NEO220). The rapid expansion of this haplogroup and associated genome-wide ancestry in the early Nordic Bronze Age indicates a considerable reproductive advantage of individuals associated with this cluster over the preceding groups across large parts of Scandinavia.

            https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.05.04.490594v2

            other anon got there first I see

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Got one for R1B-DF27?

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Illyrians.

            [...]
            They didn't have it

            Slavs.

            Nordic Bronze Age.

            Slavs again.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            R-Z282 is much older than Slavs, try R-M458 for Slavs

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Both are Slavic markers. I'm guessing Z282 could be originally Balto-Slavic.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Z282 is just broadly Corded Ware. Some clades of it like Z284 are pretty much only found in Scandinavia while others are almost exclusive to Balts. M458 is more pan-Slavic and therefore more associated with proto-Slavs imo.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Trzciniec maybe.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Z282 spread much earlier than that but M458 could have been a Trzciniec haplogroup

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          It's not common there. One Z2103 has been found among Corded Ware so probably with Beakers or with some later group.

  8. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Pretty simple, linguistics were right the whole time. The language of the proto Indo Europeans showed that Ukraine through northern Kazakhstan and Iran were all likely birth places of the Indo Europeans and then mythological accounts of migrations ended up having some truth to them. That and ancient record keepers seem to indicate steppe Black folk were blonde, tall, and robust like northern euros

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      No. It's Russia, close to Caucasus. Different people lived in Ukraine or Kazakhstan, let alone in Iran.

  9. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    90% of those linguistic theories are bullshit in light of modern genetics

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      >linguists pinpoint home of proto Indo Europeans based of words for trees and livestock
      >Ukraine is projected Homeland
      >Yamnaya genetic studies show their homeland exactly where linguists projected
      >it's all bullshit?!?!?!

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        The derivatives we wuz greeks, romans, anatolian etruscans and so on. I guess Nords can latch onto street shitters

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          Nordics are more of an outlier than Indians, Greeks, Celts, Italics. The nordics share more common ancestry with native Americans and even share mythological stories from Siberia and native north Americans.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Nordics are almost genetically identical to insular celts… lol

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            I don't know what this means to be honest. I only know a handful of thing.

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