How does /tttt/ feel about the trutrans movement? Do we agree that gender dysphoria is a requirement to actually be trans, and do we think that passing and eventually going stealth is the only real desirable transition goal?
Secondly if you are trutrans, what are your thoughts on non-binary people?
I don’t think the trutrans movement is to my liking enough to say that I consider myself a part of it. With that being said, I do think there’s a huge need for there to be a clear dysphoric community of trans people that have their own spaces. Dysphoria is a legitimately life ruining illness and I think it’s a failure of the modern trans movement not to have spaces carved out for us. When Philosophy tube said that gender dysphoria isn’t real, that’s when I became jaded with the modern trans movement. Now I post my shitty opinions here instead of being on trans twitter :333
Ditto. You wrote it out now I don't have to...
> When Philosophy tube said that gender dysphoria isn’t real, that’s when I became jaded with the modern trans movement.
Likewise honestly, this is when I started to teeter on the trutrans angle. I still don’t know where I land honestly, I don’t care about hons or whatever, if you don’t pass that’s not always your fault. But I do believe dysphoria is required to be trans, and I think allowing people without dysphoria to not only swarm the community but dictate it was a mistake. The problem is the number of vocal passoids and even non passing dysphoria will always be smaller than the number of theyfabs and AGPs simply because trans people are a minority.
>When Philosophy tube said that gender dysphoria isn’t real, that’s when I became jaded with the modern trans movement.
So true, I only recently learned rapetoob said this. Like I need some AGP ROGD Trender telling me my lifelong ailment is fake as her personality. KMS
obviously. and most people cis or trans would agree. twt and reddit have been radicalized by political streamers making money off their veiws
Yes you need dysphoria, yes stealth is the goal
I think there probably a few people out there who are legitimately nonbinary due to some sort of mental illness or personality disorder (though it's probably more a sense of dehumanisation at that point), but most are either GNC or attention seeking
This is actually my main contention with calling myself apart of the trutrans movement, I don’t know how to feel about non binary people. I can’t prove them biologically or even psychologically but I’ve got a horse in the race as I’ve got some close friends who are nonbinary, so I’m desperately looking for a way both my nonbinary friends and myself to make it out of this.
I know people who call themselves enby, are long term on hrt, they are fulfilled and the steps they took to transition made them much happier. The reasons they might not identify as binary trans I mentioned in
I’m a practical person— they clearly suffered dysphoria, alleviated that dysphoria through medical treatments, and remain happy with their decisions. What would be the point of saying they aren’t trans? We have a lot we can fight for together, to exclude them just because they pursued partial instead of full medical transition would be asinine. And there are already plenty of binary-identifying trans people who only transition as far as (or even less than) the enbies I know. If someone wants their own “transitioned before age 20, had SRS, at least ten years post HRT, fully voicetrained, heterosexual” exclusive club, they can go ahead, but the definition of trans doesn’t have restricted like that to the point of impracticality
This alongside your previous post sounds like the most logical explanation honestly. Gonna give this one some thought, because you sound well adjusted
nbs aren’t trans.
they just dont like being referred to as their agab.
very different feom being trans and transitioning to the opposite gender.
most nbs i know irl think the same way
I think it’s necessary to have dysphoria to be trans, but it’s plausible to have partial dysphoria and thus be NB (e.g. dysphoria about everything except voice, dysphoria about everything except genitals). Dysphoria is a condition of psychological distress about not having a body sexed in a certain way, there’s nothing theoretically impossible about a variant of this condition making someone want to have a dickgirl body (instead of a cis female body) for example
Stealth is a personal decision, and I see no reason to gatekeep dysphoric people who don’t desire to stealth. Who am I to decide what is “real and desirable” for others who are dysphoric? As long as they meet the criteria of prolonged psych distress over the traits of their birth sex body, they medically count as trans. We don’t have to be exactly alike.
there is no trutrans.
existence preceeds essence.
the authenticity of gender identity is not dependent upon a pathologizing of one's suffering or despair, and subsequently one's becoming a medical subject.
this is nonsense born from the anxieties of trans-people who realize that their consideration by others, and the worthiness of their identity is shackled to the shoddy justifications born from the paternalistic gaze of liberal academics: that trans identity could be justified by being an objective and natural condition, therefore it is a necessary degeneracy and deserves compassion. Embracing medicalization and enforcing gatekeeping onto others is protective. After all, isn't accepting the paternalism of medicalization better than risking that some other justification for deservedness is rejected?
We deserve to be our authentic selves, not because we suffer a "condition", but because it is our right to be free.
It’s not just medicalisation, it’s absurd how far some anons take it with jerking off to their own misery. Even if being trans were a medical condition, and I personally think it is, these jokers try to come up with even stricter criteria on par with “you don’t have cancer unless you have stage 4 cancer, if your cancer is any less widespread and severe than mine, you don’t have it at all. Yes, I, personally, am the sole arbiter of how severe your cancer has to be, to be considered cancer”
you’re what’s wrong with trans discourse.
if gd didnt exist there would be no need for us to transition, ESPECIALLY minors would lose this right because why let them make a decision that could have sever negative consequences if there is no condition that requires them to transition.
YOUR POSITION STRENGTHENS RIGHT WING TALKING POINTS
you’re not a radical leftist you’re just a conservative in trendy clothes
This is what scares me, if the modern trans movement decided to latch onto denying dysphoria, we’re dead.
yea it’s illogical and a terrible tactic
its just trendy on twtr and reddit
I’m hoping it stays that way, I’m hopeful Elon will fuck twitter hard enough it actively loses all relevance without completely dying, and Reddit after their previous fiasco with their API pricing could find a similar fate. Most people probably do believe in trutrans so small groups and individuals leaving twitter and Reddit for more popular sites shouldn’t have a massive effect. What we don’t want is a tumblr scenario, where all the retards migrated due to one cataclysmic event.
youd be surprised how many of those big twt accounts that push gender abolition to an audience, will admit to agreeing with stuff they label as trans medicalism in private
That honestly pisses me off more. It’s one thing to spew stupid bullshit you believe, I don’t hate these people I just think they’re stupid. It’s an entirely different story to spew harmful bullshit whilst knowing its bullshit and pushing it anyways for internet brownie points
NTA I disagree with the conservative thing. I just think a majority of these people are probably coming from Reddit, where if you are seen to disagree with the idea that everyone is valid regardless of their efforts and behaviour you will be subject to the horde. I think people genuinely do have good intentions when it comes to welcoming people into the community, but they don't realise that saying stuff like "GD isn't real" and "Truscum are destroying OUR community" is basically playing into the hands of the people who want our liberties taken away. I will never agree with people who do that, and though I'm a lot calmer towards them than I used to be it's still an issue that direly needs addressing in the coming years because our spaces are gradually becoming more and more diluted the more this goes on.
I agree. it is a political position construed in bad faith.
Medicalization is necessary because it justifies us, it protects us, not because it is, or because our essences actually preceed us.
There are consequences to this though. Material, social, and existential consequences. And especially existential when this is the way by which trans people are ubiquitously understood.
I never said that suffering related to possessing a trans identity, such as extreme distress over the development of unwanted sex characteristics, isn't real. And as such childhood medical intervention can certainly still be justified by identifying that suffering.
do you have discord to talk more?
hornedchild
>YOUR POSITION STRENGTHENS RIGHT WING TALKING POINTS
It's worse than that. Shitheads like
and choob (who that may be) aren't just strengthening right wing/TERF talking points.
They're just saying the same thing and pretending that it's "progressive".
>you’re not a radical leftist you’re just a conservative in trendy clothes
?si=QIQDZ9bKB2H3iqgF
welcome to america, where the left isn't left, they're center (but relative to the right they're left). the further right they go, the further our left becomes the new right.
Gender dysphoria is real 🙂
Kill yourself, Abigail.
Shut up Sarte we are not in the 60s anymore, read sciences, neurosciences. And shut the fuck up again
Id be curious to know what you think neuroscience says.
Plenty of articles. Don't cherry pick thouh
> this to start
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/
>
Or this
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7197078/
>
You can find various analysis easily. Trannies should be more curious about themselves and stop critizing sciences when you dont know the method.
I respect neuroscience. And I still generally don't agree with the biological essentialist narrative that proposes brain sex mosaics as an underlying mechanism causal to gender dysphoria or even gender identity itself.
Could we possess brain variations, even prior to hrt, that are closer to an average for cis women? yes. but this doesn't prove much. Especially since there is no evidence that this relation is significant to gender dysphoria.
The study on self-identification is far more interesting, but it does not show an underlying mechanism either. It's at least as likely that the activation is secondary to having already formed an identity relation, rather than being indicative of some neural circuitry that is itself causal to the formation.
As an aside, I am not entirely opposed in anyway to searching for mechanisms related to gender identity or the physical perception aspects of gender dysphoria, but I am highly critical of how narratives about these possible mechanisms often bake in our assumptions about what gender is.
Also if I am missing something, I apologize. I'll spend time to read them more in depth.
missed opportunity to call them sharte
I don't personally like calling it the "trutrans" movement, It has the same ring as when trans people and allies began to call every single person who hates trannies a TERF which then backfired on the community as it pushed the narrative of people not having any tact when going to bat for us.
Transmedicalism in my view is the only valid way to see transsexual individuals, no hate for people who do not have dysphoria or do not claim to have it but when you start telling people who have suffered with their identity, both internally and externally, for several years that they don't need medicine to be themselves, that anyone can be seen as trans and it's just a way for people like us to gatekeep, you're failing to realise how this affects us on a systemic scale. It's all well and good saying that everyone is unaffected by these things when it is so unimportant to you, but what are we supposed to do when we are denied basic healthcare options because of your voices? What are we supposed to do when the sole safe spaces that we had are taken over by people who think they know better than individuals who have been suffering for years now? If anyone reading this seriously agrees with the assertion that you do not need dysphoria to be trans, please just take some time and actually read into issues affecting people who HAVE gender dysphoria. You might come out with a better idea as to why we are like this with some of you.
"trutrans" is what kids write. this shit we spread? it's nothing new, and it's not a movement. it's how it used to be.
nb people aren't trans. it's just repacked GNC.
dysphoria is a requirement, without dysphoria, why are you transitioning? kids are allowed to transition because it helps them. they have a condition out of their control. why are you getting chemo therapy, without having cancer? why are you on adderal without having adhd? because it's fun. that's why people pretend to be trans and transition. that's why they say people with dysphoria don't exist, or that it is because of society, even though we'd still have dysphoria if you threw us onto a fucking island in the middle of no where, with no one else.
There's nothing wrong with transitioning just because you want to
Many people seem to perceive "authenticity" and especially "authentic self" as something that exists below our wants and desires. That one's gender is a more essential nature that drives those wants. That gender dysphoria is more than a despair born from having a self, and forming wants in relation to gender, but rather a sort of imbalance between the body and some underlying "instinct" of gender, separate to one's conscious self, that drives an underlying discomfort.
Living authentically IS living in accordance to ones desires. You are trans because your existence denied you to be a boy or a girl, or something inbetween, and you desperately want to be. That is you. And it is enough.
>something inbetween
found the bad actor
But people don't relate to some natural category of "boy" or "girl". we relate to the social narratives placed on-top of these categories, many of which are non-exclusive and all of which are almost certainly described by mostly non-exclusive attributes. Trans identity is not authentic only when it is formed in relation to the most exclusive narrative available. The only collapse that occurs is when the artificial necessities of binary gender are enforced onto us.
You actually have the shittiest most pretentious writing style of all time. It’s in line with your opinions on dysphoria.
Jesus. Christ.
You are such a pretentious piece of shit.
You talk like an English rapist.
Please kill yourself for the good of the universe.
>artificial necessities of binary gender are enforced onto us
are you high right now?
the artificial necessisties of the gender binary?
sweety, are you trying to say that sexual dimorphism doesn't exist in humans? sexual variantation is certainly real amongst humans. it's not some performative act like gender abolitionists make it out to be. it's literally dick or vagina. there's no feeling of being a woman or feeling of being a man. there is a feeling of stress when you have gender dysphoria and look down at your crotch like oh my god my genitals fell out of my body like someone disemboweled me. there is a feeling of stress when they look down at their genitals with disappointment that nothing ever grew and the apples didn't fall down from the tree.
gender isn't:
an outfit
a performance
made up make believe
who does the dishes
a hair cut
gender is literally: what's in your pants and how the rest of you is a reflection of that.
the whole point of it is to attract a mate (a sexual partner). sometimes i can't stand humanity. they act like they're more than just monkeys.
What about the people that feel dysphoria over their male characteristics and take HRT for that, but don't have genital dysphoria?
assholes misappropriating gender dysphoria.
diagnostic criteria state "and", not "or".
they don't have gender dysphoria, but there's no way to objectively prove anything.
when they say things like feel like a woman, there is no feeling of being a woman. a woman isn't a feeling.
even then, feeling like something is an acknowledgement that you are not that thing. the whole reason transsexuals are considered delusional is they believe they're women through and through.
i just feel like the teacher giving you retards the answer key to last year's test for you to go regurgitate it inaccurately.
Yes, the only sexed characteristics are the genitals, there's nothing about being male or female other than that, you are so smart
because boy don't ever grow breasts. gynocomastia totally never happens. and when it does, they never feel distressed from what is perceived as a female secondary sex characteristic to the point that we perform a double masectomy with chest contouring.
primary sex characteristics are primary because they rigidly define us. secondary sex characteristics can vary based upon circumstances.
>i am confused
i thought you were just retarded.
No one that is not intersex will develop secondary characteristics to the point of looking like the opposite sex. You are retarded and should kill yourself.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gynecomastia/symptoms-causes/syc-20351793#:~:text=Retry-,Causes,or%20increase%20your%20estrogen%20level.
it's not even an intersex condition. men get it when they get old as their test productions starts to turn off. you act like you never seen a man with bigger moobs than a woman. we just call them fatasses.
Those are nothing like real breasts, which AMABs who take HRT develop, so it's entirely not the same thing
Idk I got gyno while basically underweight pre hrt and they hurt like gyno. NGL I was so scared I was developing male breast cancer or something. Because I didn't know it was possible.
Wait I mean they didn't hurt like gyno they hurt like when starting e. Literal breast buds
Lol just admit you got circles ran around you in the argument.
Nah I wasn't even OP I just haven't had my coffee yet and pre coffee I have trouble not typing the wrong words because my thoughts get all disorganized. TFW ADHD
But I did mean what I said my gyno hurt the same as e breast growth because theirs real breast tissue in that according to the doctor especially when it happens to skinny people.
um. anon.
the majority of tranners never get past tanner 2. that's about as far as gynecomastia goes.
>are you trying to say that sexual dimorphism doesn't exist in humans?
no? I am refering to the collapses that occurs when you are perceived and categorized by binary gender regardless of how you relate to it.
though I am confused.
do you think that all human gender construct is all some expression of sexual dimorphism itself? or rather that gender does not exist and that is only sex and relating to sexed bodies? if the later, to what extent would you attribute things I would call gender to that relation?
"it's just dicks and vaginas, and relating to that" is superficially far more essentialist than most trans medicalists would ever argue. you'll have to be more specific about what you are essentializing though.
Kill yourself, Abi.
The bodies are sexed not because we only infer arbitrary behaviours or characteristics but because they are here to start. The left have a problem with the idea of prior essence they believe everything is biased since it's perceived and conceptualized by humans. So everything's relative. I'm tired of the post modernists intentionnality bias and over the top/obscurantist deconstruction.
Agreed. And the left has a problem with fixating on edge cases as gotchas. We know that we are assuming the sex of other people every day through indirect means (gendered performances), and we know sex isn’t 100% binary and intersex people exist including those who don’t even know they are intersex. But if you put the naked body of the average man side by side the naked body of the average woman, anyone can tell the difference. And dysphoria (I honestly think it should be renamed from gender dysphoria to sex-based dysphoria) is when you have one of those bodies, but not the other. This is a simple plain fact, but the left indeed has a problem with any notion of essence, so they will hyperfixate on edge cases until they have an argument that falls just short of saying sex doesn’t even exist at all (which they want to, but even that would be too absurd for them).
It’s somewhat similar to the issue of race, they will point out all the ways that race is socially constructed, but they go so far, sometimes they act as if one could put the average African-American side by side the average American Caucasian, and we should not be able to tell any difference
Intersex people far from contradictng the idea that the sex is not binary. Reinforced the binarity by standing in between those very two sexes.
Being trans amab, is dysphoria over having a typical male-sexed body, while desiring either a typical female-sexed body (mtf) or an atypically sexed body (non-binary). This is aside from gender. There is also aside from the fact that there are exclusions to typically sexed bodies, everyone knows that sex cannot be strictly defined but it can be broadly defined.
>but you are focusing too much on sex and reducing too much to sex, we gender everyday people by how they perform gender, not even by sex
Yes I have read Butler. We gender every everyday people by how they perform gender, because we use their performances + their physical appearance, to make an inference about their sex, and proceed accordingly with the corresponding social dynamics.
Note that physical appearance is still important, if your face and body looks like a man’s, no amount of feminine gender performance including clothes and makeup and mannerisms will get people to fully see you as a woman. This is why sex still matters, because sexual dimorphism broadly exists.
The above does not detract from the point that MtFs still want a typical female-sexed physical bodies, and dysphoria is the distress of not having it.
If you line up a naked typical male body next to a naked typical female body, anyone with a pair of eyes and two working brain cells can tell the difference.
>but sex really doesn’t matter e.g. what about cis women who have no idea they are intersex
This is irrelevant. It’s one thing for a cis woman to be raised a woman, look like a typical woman, perform the female gender role, and then realize she is actually intersex all along with no practical consequence. Yes this existentially and technically calls in question the exact definitions of sex and gender, and you can write whole papers circlejerking about it.
But the above does not detract from the point that MtFs still want a typical female-sexed physical bodies, and dysphoria is the distress of not having it.
If there's no essence behind the performance of gender explain me why agp hons never pass or act like women even when they have the sugeries and money to? Explain to me why some trans give the vibe of their natal sex when they try to explain you something is it just a bias with their voices?
If there's no prior structure that leads to feeling feminine or being manly and it's just construction then why not forcing trans people to detrans and adjust to another gender? If it's all fluide you all believe we can be anything just by learning codes. So sex is purely normative codes arises from no where, ni priors?
You are taking away the exact opposite of what I’m saying.
Sex-based dysphoria in amabs, is the experience of having a male sexed physical body but desiring a female sexed physical body. Precisely because this is technically divorced from gender, this is exactly why you will see some trans women exhibit masculine traits, due to either their personality or prior masc socialisation or both.
Sex exists in the way that water exists and gravity exists. Gender roles are the normative codes placed on people according to the sex we perceive of them. This is why some trans women are male socialized, they grew up in bodies perceived as male, and thus they were corresponding taught the masc gender role.
However, imo gender is not entirely construction. It is possibly to be naturally feminine or naturally masculine by personality, and there are naturally masculine cis women for example (female sex and happy with it, but naturally masculine personality).
For most trans women, they have distress over not possessing the female sexed body, they are usually naturally feminine to some degree, and they usually have some level of trauma with having been forced into the masculine gender role, even though they come away from that masculine socialisation with some masc behavioral traits and hobbies that stick with them
The"masc socialisation traits" that is said to be retained in some mtfs are bullshit. Surprisingly only agp remains with them.
Returning to your previous point, I agree that there is something of essence to gender, but I don’t think that should be so relevant to the question of medical transition. On one hand, it is true that some people are naturally fem and some people are naturally masc, and it would be unnecessarily cruel and often ineffective to try training that out of them, thus we should not do so. On the other hand, medical transition is a different matter, meant to address sex-based dysphoria. As long as there is sufficient evidence that hrt improves the mental health and alleviates the dysphoria of even the masculine trans women, the fact that they are masc by gender should have no bearing on treating their sex-based dysphoria.
So if they couldn't bear the masc gender role it shows that there's something by essence particular with them. I was a femboy all my childhood it was impossible to put the masc gender role on me and everyone were resigned. The idea that every behaviour are arbitrary is absurd, how could wenhae elvoved and persist as a spiece if everything was a tabula rasa or if there were no ultimate evolutionary purpose to our categorizations.
I agree with that, although I see socialisation and gender roles and all this talk of normativity, as societal reinforcement exaggerating gendered differences. We police the gender of the kids we raise, which I’m sure you know even better than most. Maybe you were so persistently naturally hyper feminine, no amount of attempted conditioning could rub off on you. But it’s not a stretch to imagine masc conditioning rubbing off on and shaping someone with less strong of a baseline feminine personality.
There are broadly speaking two sexes, most females are naturally fem to some degree, and most males are naturally masc to some degree, but we societally try to condition them even further into their prescribed gender roles.
Therefore trans women are feminine males (not a surprise).
"Earth is not round she's rounded"
"Females bodies are sexed"
>an atypically sexed body (non-binary)
trender detected.
what are you the star of the meg 2? nobody cares. you're not matt damon.
I am fine with a definition of gender dysphoria that is strict to physical dysphoria concerning sex characteristics. Though I would argue that this dysphoria still exists though and secondary to a relationship with gender.
The generalization "MtFs want a typical female-sexed body" I disagree with. There are trans women who want all sorts of female bodies. Some want to be athletic tall muscular women, some want to be short and cute, some want to be skinny models with tiny boobs, some want to have giant hips and breasts.
You could restrict to just primary sex attributes, but even those many trans women disagree on what they want. For example, only a minority of trans women pursue grs, and alot of trans women don't have a strong physical dysphoria towards having a penis (probably due to there being gender narratives adjacent to or about trans-ness that can make this compatible with one's identity).
So having extreme genital dysphoria as a lot of early onset gd mtf have throughout they lives (I couldn't bear being touch by my bf down there before srs) is only due to categorization error and normativity? Maybe.
>>only a minority of trans women pursue grs
it's called srs
and we call the candidates that go through it transsexual.
nothing has changed to merit redefining it as gender reassignment surgery other than supposed allies exposing their own transphobia by denying someone their sex change.
>>don't have a strong physical dysphoria towards having a penis
then they don't fit the diagnostic criteria of gender dysphoria as described in the dsm-v, meaning anyone that categorizes them as having gender dysphoria is conducting malpractice and potentially insurance fraud.
the dsm-v literally states: primary and secondary.
if i had some non-op come into my office as a physician i would tell them to fuck off as i wouldn't willingly risk my license for some rando.
>if i had some non-op come into my office as a physician i would tell them to fuck off
this is so transphobic lol. you are all acting like ico is a reactionary boogeyman meanwhile despite accepting everyone meanwhile you are shitting on half the trans women on the board
not even close.
transphobia is thinking that non-op and that post-op are the same thing.
transphobia is denying that post-op their sex change by saying that the non-op is equally as valid as the post-op.
you're the type of person to say things like feminine penis (even though it's literally a primary male sex characteristic) unironically. a penis can never be feminine. i don't care if tie a bow on it or cover it in lace. it's a male primary sex characteristic. wanting to keep it means you identify as male (congruent in sex).
What about the pre-ops?
It's an arbitrary criteria not everyone can afford srs
>not everyone can afford srs
the wage cuck at mcdonald's got srs. what's your excuse?
>pre-ops
what about 'em? if they're seriously going through the process then they'll eventually get srs and it'll be resolved. if they're like: i'm trans; and then never do anything about it? fuck off. you should be in therapy during the process. when you have ones unwilling to go to therapy that think they should just be handed everything they can fuck off. the point of therapy is for neutral parties to vouch for you. if someone says the sky is green do you believe them? no, you believe it's blue because the majority of people will look at it and agree it's blue. spreading transvisibility makes it more difficult to objectively say the sky is blue when people can't even agree on what primary colors are.
I'm post btw. Thanks Chett but it's an heavy loan a lot of trannies will priorize having bbl or ffs (which I had too). To attract males
Gate keeping is conservatards, no one should try to control others freedom.
>transphobia is thinking that non-op and that post-op are the same thing.
do you think cis women and trans women are the same too? lol
>transphobia is denying that post-op their sex change by saying that the non-op is equally as valid as the post-op.
they don't really change sex but even so i'm not necessarily saying theyre equally valid (what does valid mean) but that they can at least be considered transgender in the sense of living out gender in a way opposite to what they were assigned at birth
>it's a male primary sex characteristic
it can be relatively feminine compared to other penises
>wanting to keep it means you identify as male
trans women are males who identify as women not as male
No but actually post op mtf tries and are convincing in their condition
>do you think cis women and trans women are the same too?
>lol
what does it mean to act in bad faith?
women are women. trans, cis, yt, azn, whatever. women are women. you saying /lol/ after asking implies you believe trans women are not women (which is why you're transphobic). even in how you identify trans women as males. literal transphobia.
women are women unless they don't hate their dick, then they are men in your view. you would say i'm not a woman to my face and call me transphobic about it. you're the bigot here
women don't have a dick.
if you were post-op i'd consider you a woman.
if you wanted and were seeking srs, i would consider you a woman.
you being so attached to your dick is what makes you a man instead. let it go.
there has to be a standard. you call it gatekeeping because you didn't meet the standard and feel left out. we raised an entire generation to believe that they are entitle to access to whatever they want and that standards don't need to be enforced to ensure functionality.
>you being so attached to your dick is what makes you a man instead. let it go.
it's not like it's my favourite body part but it's congruent with my idea of what a woman can be. genitals being determines being men or women is like level 0 conservative view so it's funny that you think others are being bigots
Yes trans women are males, surprise bitch
cool so chasers are gay and a penis can't be feminine. got it.
You're twisting things. Chasers are not gay but gynephiles in most part it had been proven. Though you're not a normal woman to their eyes while you become one when you're post op then you don't interest them anymore.
Sorry but the male category only applies to sex and chromosomes. If you're XY you're male that's the whole point of transitionning you idiot. Who cares about how you feel in your head
If an ftm is very masc, my eyes gives signals to my brain to be attracted to him/target because it is wired this way in a bayesian way there's signals that gives male or female vibe in physiology. Though the ftm is tricking my brain because he's really female. But you have to learn proximal vs ultimate concept applied to evolutionary psychology to understand what seems paradoxical.
I’m a post-op troon and I think you’re a fucking idiot lol. You don’t become more of a woman after your srs you just have an epic pussy now.
having a penis is a feminine trait
like why do you have that succulent cock bro to have it sucked by your bros?
>transphobia is denying that post-op their sex change by saying that the non-op is equally as valid as the post-op
They are, and we have the brain scan evidence to prove it. Dysphoria and its treatment through cross-sex hormone therapy are the objectively supported criteria for being trans, not SRS, which is highly limited by the current state of tech and should be reserved only for those with severe bottom dysphoria for now as as result.
>you're the type of person to say things like feminine penis (even though it's literally a primary male sex characteristic) unironically. a penis can never be feminine
I'm a bi/pan mtf and I can tell you from my direct first hand experience of having sex with people that trans women's penises are very different from those of cis men. Hormones matter, a lot, and have HUGE effects on what that area is like.
Same goes for testosterone's effects on vagina's, by the way. HUGE difference.
That said, you're clearly one of those people whos brain is wired to not be able to separate genitals from gender, so I understand why you feel the way you do. You just should recognize that not all of us perceive gender the same way you do. There are many people who literally, actually, really perceive gender on secondary sex characteristics and presentation, not primary. There are MANY bi/pan/queer people who perceive gender this way, in particualr (there seems to be a pretty noticeable correlation where most genitals = gender people are monosexuals, though not all monosexuals perceive gender that way).
>wanting to keep it means you identify as male (congruent in sex)
No, it means I don't have enough dysphoria about it to make the risks of SRS in its current state worth it to me, since the only part of my life it directly affects besides my limited dysphoria bout it is sex and I have no problem finding partners who perceive gender the way I do and where I don't have to worry that they won't see me as valid because of it.
Still a femininzed penis on a male body. + Being pan is an insult. There's two sexes the rest is mythology.
You don't understand the way people wired to perceive gender on secondary sex characteristics perceive gender. Primary sex characteristics just don't influence that perception for me the way that someone's secondary sex characteristics, hormones and presentation do.
As a personal example: Smell is a HUGE influence on my perception of gender in a way it doesn't seem to be for any genitals = gender person I've ever talked to. I've dated a couple of AFAB people with PCOS who smelled so strongly of testosterone that my lizard brain couldn't perceive them as women anymore. They went into an 'other/androgynous' category, ( my lizard brain perceives people as masculine, androgynous/other or feminine so I have 3 categories not two like you).
Conversely, the trans women I slept with smelled hormonally like cis women do, much moreso than the two with PCOS induced high T levels, actually.
I can't just shove people into two boxes because there are too many combinations of hormones + secondary sex characteristics + presentations that strike my brain differently than each other. There's no reason that *your* way of perceiving things should be treated like some divinely inspired universal truth while mine should be treated like it's inherently invalid. Stop trying to universalize your experiences.
That's unnatural to say the least. Tricking our brains are not healthy
It's not tricking, this is literally just how my brain perceives gender. It's not voluntary on my part. I actually ended up gently suggesting one of those AFAB people get tested for PCOS when they were having some health issues because I figured odds were decent they had it because they were a cis woman and smelled like a transmasc on T.
You do not understand biology
You cannot erase the right to some people to be gnc and have dysphoria but not only on their genitals the access to care. It's a spectrum of dysphoria and probably not one thing.
Though I agree with you
You make a good point, I think it would be more accurate to say “MtFs want a body that is more female-sexed than what they were born with” and this relates to various physical attributes like body curves and voice and breasts and sometimes genitals.
My apprehension with bringing in gender, has to do with easy sliding into the argument that MtFs essentially just want to be exhibit feminine behaviours and aesthetics, and that MtFs therefore arrived at the conclusion that it is necessary to possess a female sexed body to be feminine. The argument is usually employed to imply that if society accepted feminine men more, physical transition would not be pursued. We can already infer that this is unlikely to be true through a genderflipped example— in the most progressive areas nowadays, there are biologically females socially allowed to express masculinity as butch lesbians, but they choose to physically transition their bodies anyway.
The reason that I personally buy into medicalisation to an extent, is because I do see the persistent psychological distress over the possession of unwanted sex characteristics as a type of psychological/medical condition.
>My apprehension with bringing in gender, has to do with easy sliding into the argument that MtFs essentially just want to be exhibit feminine behaviors and aesthetics
I do think this is a large part of what gets amalgamated colloquially into "gender dysphoria" (specifically the despair and one's inability to access and express these behaviors and aesthetics). Though I think it goes beyond "just" a want to exhibit. Its an intense desire to portray oneself authentically in relation to one the most important components of social identity in human society.
>The argument is usually employed to imply that if society accepted feminine men more, physical transition would not be pursued
From my perspective, is it possible that physical transition would be pursued less? I think if anything, social transition would be less likely. gender is heavily about aesthetics around our physical bodies in relating to sex, and enforced by the performance of those aesthetics (including the possessing of physical characteristics).
For physical transition to be undesirable, would require a complete rewriting of how humans relate the aesthetics of gender and gendered narratives to their identities.
Imagine a world where aesthetics associated to "woman" or "girl" did not include "feminine" and "cute", or where "feminine" and "cute" implied nothing about, say, small frame and soft skin.
You could probably imagine that the way people form identities in relation to these things would change quite a bit. And people's desires to change themselves to portray identities in relation to these would shift to other things.
But its not the world we live in right? People are invested in how the gender and gendered narratives that we relate our identities to exist in our society, and how others perceive and treat us in relation to them (enforcement).
(1/2)
Those feminine traits reinforced by normative narratives are thus natural. You can see how ftm who gave birth are naturally feminine, maternity is an evolved thing, skin, softness etc we mammalians need a mother. Outside of their dysphoria ftm are for most feminine in there behaviours it's not a construct it's a essential trait. Same with some mtf though it seems that real gd is mostly a male phenomenon. We are all female by default.
>Its an intense desire to portray oneself authentically in relation to one the most important components of social identity in human society
The gotcha which is used against us, is saying that the true issue is the existence of heavy cultural stigma against the expression of femininity by male sexed bodies. The argument is that, if it were culturally permissible for males to express femininity, they would not physically transition “in order to be express femininity”, and “in order to be treated like a woman”.
That said, you are right that modifying one’s physical body through hrt is in itself also a possible way of expressing one’s femininity, so the dichotomy that gets drawn between behavioural/cultural femininity and the sexed body can get weird.
>and how others perceive and treat us in relation to them (enforcement)
I am on one hand aware of MtFs who said they did certain things in their transition “in order to be treated like a woman”, and on the other hand aware of people making the argument that if we could be capable of treating males in a feminine way some of them desire, those males would not have to medically transition.
Speaking as an ftm who was allowed when growing up to explore masculine aesthetics and display any amount of masculinity (in fact, many masc traits were rewarded in my immediate environment), I did not transition to express behavioural/aesthetic masculinity nor to be treated like a man. I transitioned because, despite having the behavioral and aesthetic masculinity I always allowed to express, and despite having no particular desire for cultural manhood and the treatment of men, I still hated my curvy, short, frail and soft female body.
If society is sexed and sexist terfs are right. You should not troon out because you have mysogynistic normative beliefs that you should try to deconstruct about yourself. If dysphoria is just based on sexed construct then an agender utopic world would prevent people to have dysphoria according to the Butler vision. So trans are just reinforcing gender prejudices and cosplaying to that view. That's why I hate your postmodern bullshit.
The body is sexed, and society is gendered.
>you should not troon out because you just have misogynistic normative beliefs
That’s indeed the terf argument of “you just think you need to take hrt in order to wear a skirt, why not let males wear skirts so we resolve this without hrt”. But the body is sexed, regardless of how society is gendered. What if I have a problem with the sex of my body?
>in an agender utopic world, people would have not dysphoria, according to the Butler vision
Butler’s best known works didn’t even consider trans people, it was just out of scope. Butler’s argument is not exactly that anyway, it is “you think that’s a woman on the street there, because she is performing Woman, and everyone is constantly performing Woman or Man, and we just make assumptions about what’s actually in their pants”. This is however about gender (the performance) and not sex (what’s actually in our pants).
Which only leads back to my previous point “But the body is sexed, regardless of how society is gendered. What if I have a problem with the sex of my body?”
All this said, I’m interested in what the other anon has to say about the relationship of gender to transness, because the argument I myself have is a simple easy defense against TERFs, but then it sacrifices talking about gender in favor of just a focus on sex-based dysphoria. I could be excising a lot of possible nuance.
You're so articulate. I want to rim you.
You're probably this type of ftm (like 99% of these deranged females) to get dicked down and fetichizing gays. Ew
Not sure why this board is so obsessed with sexual orientation, I literally have a gf anyway, but you act like me having a gf is making me an entirely different species from if I didn’t have one.
If I were fixated on being treated like a man, this would only lend fire to bad faith argument that I transitioned just out of internalized misogyny and not “actual physical dysphoria”, so this is a lose-lose situation either way.
>Speaking as an ftm who was allowed when growing up to explore masculine aesthetics and display any amount of masculinity (in fact, many masc traits were rewarded in my immediate environment), I did not transition to express behavioral/aesthetic masculinity nor to be treated like a man. I transitioned because, despite having the behavioral and aesthetic masculinity I always allowed to express, and despite having no particular desire for cultural manhood and the treatment of men, I still hated my curvy, short, frail and soft female body.
I think that these things still mean something to you through a relationship to gender, even if it is only away from the way that you physically relate to others and others relate to your by your physical characteristics. Though I do imagine there is some identity narrative you find yourself relating to.
That said, I imagine the desert island alot. Would I feel a discomfort if my body matured in complete isolation, without any gender to relate to? I think that in some ways, as the tactile physical things about me change: growing tall, feeling my body and face grow rough and course with hair, my voice growing deeper. i can imagine I would feel discomfort. But I think I would have a self that experienced the world differently, and existed in relation to myself in a fundamentally different way.
The deserted island argument is nothing but navel gazing. Growing up without human contact will fuck a child up in many ways, up to things like psychogenic dwarfism. Humans are social creatures and it doesn't make sense to imagine "what if I grew up with everything being equal but no people around".
Maybe a better scenario to consider would be "what if I grew up around only people of my birth sex". I think I might end up stuck thinking that there's something wrong with me, but would have no idea what
>The gotcha which is used against us, is saying that the true issue is the existence of heavy cultural stigma against the expression of femininity by male sexed bodies
as for the defeater.
I do think that this sort of gotcha is often based on a really uncharitable perception of MtFs, sometimes by universalizing those who carry a bad faith investment towards a stereotypical or exaggerated idea of womanhood out of ignorance or insecurity. Or misperceiving a want to experience some sort of unbiased external validation that proves their identity is being received by others as they intend. Construing attempts to communicate less personal reasons for transition, especially when it can be so difficult and turbulent, and personal, as an exemplary to the superficiality of it all.
To the extent that people are motivated to transition by having masculinity enforced unto them, or feeling that femininity is inaccessible, or longing to be treated like they are precious and fragile. I think the society proposed would result in proportionally more non-binary trans women and hrt femboys to binary trans women, and probably more trans people overall. Maybe less people would be seeking vaginoplasties? But the narratives that people relate to the other effects of HRT (soft skin, muscle loss, fat redistribution, body hair loss, etc) are all physical aesthetics that will still be fundamental to the identities that remain after. And people are still going to form investments in identities that are more sex exclusive.
Sorry my response isnt more organized. I really need a nap right now.
>My apprehension with bringing in gender, has to do with easy sliding into the argument that MtFs essentially just want to be exhibit feminine behaviours and aesthetics, and that MtFs therefore arrived at the conclusion that it is necessary to possess a female sexed body to be feminine.
Sorry to cut in to your discussion here, but people who make that kind of an argument about gender have a backwards understanding of how being trans works.
Gender identity is a hard wired involuntary property of human brains, like sexual orientation or handedness (and we have the brain scan evidence to prove this for gender identity), so in reality we gravitate towards feminine gender roles to whatever extent we do because we have the gender identity of a woman, we don't decide we have the gender identity of a woman because we gravitate towards feminine gender roles. This is why biochemical and physical dysphoria exist, not just social, and why gender affirming care can be shown to neurologically treat dysphoria with brain scans.
Agreed. You made my point I could have made, but in a more direct manner. The reason I’ve been structuring my criteria for transness around physical dysphoria, rather than anything more socially based, is because a. Masculine in aesthetic/behavior but physically dysphoric MtFs do exist, and b. “MtFs transition because they want to be feminine and treated like women” is trickier to defend against people therefore hawking all sorts of other culturally based solutions in order to discourage medical transition itself. Also, it easily lends itself to the response of cart-before-the-horse “MtFs just think they need a woman’s body in order to be feminine” flawed argument we are pointing out
That said, there’s enough complexities in the relationship of MtFs to femininity and gender, that I’m open to hearing what the other anon has to say, and how they work gender into their definition of transness. Plus, I am aware that physical and social dysphoria can bleed into each other, and when we say “expressing femininity”, physical body alternation can easily be a part of that too.
2/2
>The reason that I personally buy into medicalisation to an extent, is because I do see the persistent psychological distress over the possession of unwanted sex characteristics as a type of psychological/medical condition.
I think that as the possibilities of changing our bodies open up to us more and more, and access to different identity narratives become available, it is entirely reasonable to expect people to develop identities that become extremely incompatible with their bodies. The options we have to represent ourselves in online spaces has catalyzed this. I expect technologies like VR and AR to catalyze far more.
One of the biggest issues I have with relying on diagnosis through dysphoria, is that it ties the performance of distress as necessary to the deservedness and consideration that justifies medical access. we should express ourselves freely, explore our identities authentically, and be free to shape ourselves before we are tortured by the jail of our persona and the investment others have in it, and before we are tortured by the necessities of our form.
I certainly dont think the distress we experience is intentionally manufactured. But could be encouraged by the social expectation of it.
I still agree medicalization is probably a necessary framework to justify intervention before an age of medical consent like 16.
Technologies helped female emancipation from pregnancies. Though it's not because you can modify yourself (the body is not sacred, we are still evolving as any other thing) that you're still something else than males or females. There's no such thing as non binary soul and body. Everyone is non binary to that view.
I don't call myself trutrans but more like a classical trans. Even when my more nb trans friends see me as a transmedicalist or some others trans don't really like me but im like the straight not smart blonde that put in doubt their identity veracity.
I think we are all trans, but we are clearly not the same. I think the world will be more gender neutral and the engine to this will be this new movement of people. People are getting tired of gender roles and they need to identify with something in the meanwhile.
I think we can live together fine but we need to recognize our differences so our beliefs don't affect each other.
the main issue though is that the likes of the enby/femboy crowds are actively pushing to remove transmeds from the community out of some perceived threat we are to them. i'm seeing it more and more in the communities i frequent that people who have even remotely transmed views are seen as "like them", "gatekeepers" etc. i really wish they'd just leave us alone and stop making us look bad
>the main issue though is that the likes of the enby/femboy crowds are actively pushing to remove transmeds from the community out of some perceived threat we are to them.
... but transmeds are a threat to them. the enby/femboy crowd isn't valid. stop pretending like they are for kudos. that's the whole point of why they call us trutrans to try to shame us. they don't understand what gender dysphoria is as the children play telephone with the definitions of things. they're literally making a mockery of trans people. you know what nb really stands for? normalizing bigotry, because that's what they're doing.
>i am a threat to them
>but i am also giving them kudos
wat
the average trans person gives lip service to the enby/femboy crowd because they want to be a part of the "in" group. hence they give them praise and tell them they're valid without regard to how they're sabotaging themselves. if enby/femboy's are valid, then gender dysphoria isn't real, and all of transition is cosmetic. enby/femboy types make a mockery of transsexualism because they think it's an aesthetic preference (like an outfit or a hair style) rather than a congenital defect. they don't want to be seen as /crazy/ which is what having gender dysphoria is seen as. if you demedicalize transsexualism, then it becomes cosmetic.
basically, enby/femboy types think trans is a choice (much like homophobes think being gay is a choice). that's the core of what makes enby/femboy types bigots. the problem is the trans community is so desperate for support that they'll accept it in the form of bad actors to the point of their own detriment. tru trans people are like no we don't want their so called /support/. we don't want to be visibly trans. we don't identify as trans, we identify as a sex.
>it's bigoted to think that homosexuality and transgenderism should be accepted even if it was a choice
okay
Wtf
Gender dysphoria has a way of hiding itself from people who don't want to see it. I used to have moments where id space out in the shower and tear my body hair out in clumps, come out of it after a time, and think nothing of it. Was the same with weird feelings about women, thoughts of pregnancy, etc. I only ever felt comfortable with myself and happy when I was more fem in my presentation. In spite of this the notion of gender dysphoria felt alien to me. Toob is wrong on the "you don't need gender dysphoria to transition", but she's usefully wrong.
As for passing, I don't really care. So long as you're not making an abomination of yourself and display a sense for the aesthetic mode that's fine to me. Be whatever flavour of gay little rebis you like.
>Do we agree that gender dysphoria is a requirement to actually be trans
yes
>and do we think that passing and eventually going stealth is the only real desirable transition goal?
yes
Based. Should be the fucking norm
I’m starting to agree honestly
yeah I literally don't see how anyone can disagree with that
like if gender dysphoria isn't a requirement, then any random retard can just say they're a tranny and automatically it's true
and if passing / being stealth isn't the goal then you must be okay with features that would presumably be making you dysphoric, which doesn't add up, suggesting you don't really have dysphoria
>like if gender dysphoria isn't a requirement, then any random retard can just say they're a tranny and automatically it's true
Don't forget that it also means that cis "trans" people are "valid". (e.g. AFAB "trans" woman)
im somewhere in the middle. i dont give a fuck if some person decides to not really transition and live life as a hon or whatever, but i dont think they should be under the catagory of trans. i feel like trans people who make an effort to transition shouldnt be places in the same catagory as people eho couldnt give two shits
(and yeah i know, some people are fucked duo to genetics or cant afford the shit neccessary etc but some people clearly just couldnt give less of a fuck)
as for non-binary people, i dont know a lot about what that feeling is like, so i cant say for certain. although i do think binary tranny rights are more important, as there are cisgender men and women (unlike with non-binary people)
Gender dysphoria *is* a requirement to be trans. It's not a fucking fashion statement.
Nonbinaries seem to almost all be AFAB so whatever.
>Secondly if you are trutrans, what are your thoughts on non-binary people?
Valid only if they're valid.
It's hard to explain, but being able to have dysphoria and having that remedied by abstaining from binary gender makes sense.
Plus many of the old cultures has more than binary gender constructions.
But this whole "dysphoria isn't real" and "you can just transition for funsies" shit needs to end.
>"you can just transition for funsies" shit needs to end
Nah, everyone who desires to take HRT should be able to do it even if they don't have dysphoria if they are adults.
But they should be allowed to as minors if they have dysphoria. A dysphoria diagnosis should be necessary to get your HRT diagnosis insured as well. Same with other gender affirming procedures. Medicine and cosmetics shouldn’t be conflated.
Yes, I agree with that. Children are too retarded to make radical cosmetic decisions, but they should be allowed to receive medical treatment, so they should need a dysphoria diagnosis to receive HRT.
Why would you be trans if not dysphoric ? I thought that was the barely norm. This so called mouvement is fucked.
The idea of “trutrans” and “actual dysphoria” is entirely insecure, self hating, and jealous boymoders trying to justify their fears
This shit is so crazy to me. Like how the hell did our community develop such that people who don't believe dysphoria exists got in? What the fuck.
Like jesus fucking christ dude. I have no words to describe the deep revulsion I experience for any male feature of my body, and you just think that's not real? Like... This diagnosis has existed for a long time. Do you think we're faking it?? Or that it's all in our heads or something?
It can be all in your head without you faking it. You're a deranged dysphoric male it's ok.
>what are your thoughts on non-binary people?
They aren't people and are heckin' invalid.
>read entire thread
>zero mention of autism
autism often causes severe gender conceptualization damage. its one of the few gender schizo things that is like psychology today tier proven and documented. its also a medical condition, insofar as it is a normal and healthy material state of being inside people’s brains, particularly LULZ and tumblr posters. the synthesis of transmed and nontransitioning enby ideology (many of you are conflating transitioners with enby social interfaces and nontransitioning enbies) is that autism is a parallel path to gender nonconforming desire that more often results in an indeterminate or intersex gender goal or outcome. especially considering the fact that your version of autism may be limiting your theory of mind, i suggest reflecting on the possibility that there are multiple pathways to genderdesire that causes distress and wont go away and in a truly free society should be allowed to be realized. really wanting to be androgynous is literally based, like duh cmon. i think the partial dysphoria lens is true also but is neglecting the underlying causality that literally 99.9999% of these ppl are autists. i get that the stolen valor from people with easier or nonexistent dysphoria is really annoying like when they claim trans experience or whatever, probably due to having fucking autism and not understanding binaryshitters, but theres parallels there to how cis women think abt trans women, like “zomg how can you be a woman if we think differently on a fundamental level and have different experiences and you didnt go through [hard thing that was formative for me]”. obviously this is true of trans guys and shit too there is just a discursive asymmetry bc of misogyny and society and i dont wanna speak for yall but i love you.
I believe that you need gender dysphoria and such to be true trans. But that non dysphoria should still be allowed to transition even if it's a fundamentally different thing.
Passing is definitely the ideal and will let you live a mostly normal life like a real girl, but you also have to learn how to accept yourself if you don't pass and do the best with what you have. Instead of torturing yourself over it.
I think their are valid non binary's/ gender fluid who truly feel between genders and get dysphoria from being either gender but it's also the category with the most tenders due to the fact that it has the lowest barrier to entry.
me when the collapse occurs
>a number of medications can cause gynecomastia
>adhd meds
>anti-depressants
>anti-anxiety medications
>recreational drugs; alcohol, marijuana
/because no male ever grows breast tissue outside of trannies. ever./
Intersex so more “trans” then all of you and I’m a trans humanist, the body is meat, to be altered in all ways, psychologically through meditation and spiritual work, physiologically through exercise and dietary shifts, and aesthetically/ hormonally through modification.
It’s a catalyst for the conscious anything that makes it easier to live in should be pursued, also dysphoria is 100% real and anyone who say otherwise is projecting their individual experience as succinct and factually which is true ignorance.
Anyone who wants hormones should be able walk into a pharmacy and buy them no script, anyone who wants an orchi should be able to sign a consent paper and get it done the same day
also intersex and based. too little bodily autonomy here. who cares about what people profess to feel, people lie about gender dysphoria anyway (both having and not having it)
I always felt liking boys since I'm 2-3y old was correlated to my persistant dysphoria and my female identification (mental representation so on). Though I never felt like being a classic western gay boi was something I was, ever.
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the so called performance of gender is hardwire simply by instictve sexual behaviours, yes normativity exist yet a prior structure is the condition for it to exist. AGP are hardwire to act like there biological sex and their gynephilia. while hsts acts naturally feminine, walk like female not because they wanted it but because their brains are hardwire to be feminine and to imitate females like every other females. What we like tell us about the structure of our brain and its implicit preferences. no one act very feminine just not to be like everybody else. being fem is dangerous not acknowledging the naturality of our behaviours is dangerous and can lead to conversion therapies and so on.
On their*
https://4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/
*s
But real non ambiguious/fetichists straight men instead. That's called, being a normal woman.
The whole point of transitionning is to adapt your male physiology to a copy of the other. If you were female you wouldn't have to deal with all of that.
>How does /tttt/ feel about the trutrans movement?
That it's generally used as an excuse to bull some trans people instead of being approached neutrally as a way to exclude those acting in bad faith and to follow the science in understanding what makes the kind of trans people who need medical transition trans, and how that is different to non-binary people who only have social dysphoria.
>Do we agree that gender dysphoria is a requirement to actually be trans
Yes, but I think the actual problem here is that dysphoria is enormously under recognized, especially by people exploring their gender identity and/or in the early phases of transition and that our efforts would be better spent in trying help others recognize their dysphoria rather than trying to gatekeep people from pursuing transition if they feel it might help them. I am against medical gatekeeping of transition and I believe HRT itself can effectively filter out those who aren't actually trans by giving them reverse dysphoria that will make them want to go off HRT voluntarily.
>do we think that passing and eventually going stealth is the only real desirable transition goal?
I don't think trans people should *have to* pass or go stealth to be treated like our actual gender, in a perfect world, an obvious good faith effort at being read a certain way should be enough, and we shouldn't have people knowing that we are trans be a threat to how we are perceived.
That said, as a practical matter, passing to people's subconscious lizard brains and having them subconsciously automatically treat me like my actual gender is ENORMOUSLY important for my own dysphoria, and passing matters a lot to me personally, even if i recognize that it shouldn't have to.
>Secondly if you are trutrans, what are your thoughts on non-binary people?
There's nothing in our most modern neurological understanding of how being trans works that excludes the possibility that people can have non-binary gender identities and experience social, biochemical and body dysphoria as a result. There are plenty of non-binary people who pursue a custom tailored medical transition approach to meet their individual needs and benefit from it.
Non-binary people who have social dysphoria only are also real and valid in my eyes, as long as its something long lasting and important to their identity, I just think they are a slightly different kind of trans than trans people who need medical transition care. I know a bunch of non-binary people who have obvious real social dysphoria, and I don't doubt their experiences for a second, but their needs and experiences are not quite like mine, at best our experiences are cousins of each other.
They're often used that way, but that doesn't automatically mean they are so inherently. The best modern brain scan research we have pretty conclusively shows that dysphoria objectively exists in the brains of trans people and that HRT objectively does reduce that dysphoria, and that the gender identity congruence/incongruence model of being trans is right.
But like I said in my above post, I think most of the 'trutrans' and 'transmeds' misuse these facts to bully other trans people instead of trying to use that knowledge in a more productive way.
Non binaries are pre-troon mtfs. Afabs are never valid.
i'm sorry but you're wrong
what happens when someone transitions and stops feeling dysphoria because they're comfortable with their body?
also holy shit
you people fall for the same bullshit gender norms that are used against all of us by dumbass rightoids
Ftms*
Dysphoria is required to be trans but I also think non-trans people should be allowed to go on hormones if they wish. The problem is that this is difficult if you don't identify as trans, so non-dysphoric people have to just pretend to be trans to get hormone access.
The research we have so far pretty strongly suggests that most people cannot stay on cross-sex HRT long term without experiencing reverse dysphoria unless they are trans (or are one of the rare people born without any gender identity at all, in which case they are still non-cis by definition).
Sources?
Spill the tea
There are a few pools of evidence on this, some of which were used to support developing the informed consent standard for HRT. There's older stuff on intersex children and children assigned to another gender for other reasons (i.e. David Reimer) developing dyphoria when given HRT that didn't match their gender identity. There's reports from GAC providers of having people develop reverse dysphoria and desist taking HRT voluntarily, and there's modern brain scan evidence showing that trans people have structural differences from cis people in the self/body processing regions of the brain that correspond to gender dysphoria and that these differences shrink towards being like cis people with cross sex hormone therapy (suggesting that giving cis people cross sex hormone therapy would cause them to DEVELOP the structural brain differences associated with gender incongruence).
Thanks. Very interesting.
Interesting though
Unless we are training ourselves meeting aliens
Dysphoria is real and is present in almost everyone who medically transitions, but the idea of true transsexuality is a farce and was made to hurt and constrain transitioners (even those who live up to the ideal of true transexxuality). Transsexuals need a mad pride movement.
Not on hrt? You're not trans. That simple.
I only support the transsexual movement, which only includes people who medically transition, gender dysphoria or not, if you're not medically transitioning you aren't trans, it's that simple.
What are you so ? GD male? Before you take hrt ?
>Before you take hrt ?
Repper? Egg? "A guy who feels dysphoric"? We've plenty of words, even if they're not approved by wokescold theyfabs like "trans woman"
No you're already trans.
This opens the door to theyfabs speaking over us, and to cis men troll-id'ing as trans, which is then used to paint us as monsters.
And when a conservative asks "what is a (trans) woman" you come up with astrological "anyone who identifies as such" answers, like the most retarded 2010s tumblrinas.
I was a man with gender dysphoria. Now I'm an estrogenized man (a transsexual) who is perceived as a woman by the world.
You aren't if you haven't medically transitionedaren't medically transitioning, you're a male or female with gender dysphoria, is reality hurting your feelings? That's not healthy anon.
This.
I mean. You're already trans in term of "gender" identification/sex identification of course you're not medically. And no if you knew me you would have know that I dont care about being male since I look 0 like if I was. It's ok being male when you look like a woman 99% lol. I come to term with the tranny desillusion when I start looking cis and when dysphoria disolved. I was ready at that moment, to accept I'm male. But I could never live in any other form than one of a female.
Against. Truetrans advocates for gatekeeping, which means fewer (or later) people transitioning.
However, I agree that you shouldn't call yourself trans (or speak for us) if you're not on HRT. We're already overrun by too many enbies drowning out our voices.
Theyfabs/trenders/whatever calling themselves trans denies kids having hormones because you would need a test to prove you have dysphoria and their movement put themselves above us and fuck this up, those retards think everyone want to be "androgynous" fuckshit later in life.
Whoever came up with "being trans is about muh feelings" as a replacement for "being trans is about transitioning" created immense damage to our movement.
Blatant stuff like
is only the tip of the iceberg of such damage.
I believe in trutrans and enbycope regardless
anything but self-id just means gatekeeping even people dysphoric since they were in the womb. as much as i hate theyfabs who use he/ghost pronouns them being valid is a necessary evil
I used to be a "self-ID and nothing else matters" person but there have been so many grifters and bad people using trans to make us look bad, at the very least you need GD to be trans for me.
This is where I'm at as well. I don't care about theyfabs/trenders, I care about the pedophiles and detrans grifters using it against us.
What's wrong with gatekeeping transness based on actually transitioning, while making sure that anyone who wants, is allowed to transition (informed consent)?
- No trannies (incl. AGPs/eggs/HRT femboys) would be harmed by this process
- Only theyfabs would seethe
Sorry meant to reply to
(in )
why with theyfabs seethe over informed consent? which is the system we (america) currently have?
They wouldn't seethe about informed consent.
They would seethe about trans people calling them out as non trans (cis) whenever they start speaking on our behalf, like they always do (both online, and offline)
Unfortunately this. Too many awful people ruined self-id for me.
>gender dysphoria is a requirement to actually be trans
Why the hell does anyone transition if they don't have dysphoria.
>thoughts on non-binary people
They don't exist.
>movement
i think people can do literally whatever with their own bodies and identities
stealth straight trans people have my support with their medical condition but my lukewarm take is that they aren't really queer (and i get the strong vibe a lot of you don't see yourself that way, either)
it's disheartening to see the minimization of gender dysphoria in the trans community given that i am cripplingly dysphoric but to be fair that shit is perpetuated as much by babytrans as it is by theyfabs, and it would destroy the irl community to actively align ourselves against theyfabs especially since many "nondysphorics" seek access to medical care and other things that we associate with trutrans
i think the minimization of dysphoria is due to a genuine misunderstanding and not malice but i dont know how we are supposed to communicate how we feel to them. the best pr campaign we have is trying to worm the term transmisogyny into the mainstream, i guess
Trannies:
>Sure cis people, come to id as trans, like us!
Trans community, now mostly composed of theyfabs:
>Dysphoria doesn't exist! It's a colonial transphobic concept! You don't need HRT!
Babytranses who seek theyfabs' upvotes and retweets:
>OMG this! yes you're totally right
i support it but im too busy sucking dick to care
That's the job of a lifetime
>you need to have gd be trans
>HRT is an efficient treatment
>you transition and now your not dysphoric anymore
>you cease to be trans
>you're still not cis
transmedicalism is not adding up
>now your not dysphoric anymore
Yeah that's how not how that works. If I have AIDS and I take medication that effectively makes AIDS have no effect on me, that doesn't mean I don't have AIDS anymore. A treatment is not a cure.
why would you want to have something comparable to aids and cancer and diabetes just to be valid???????????
>WHY WOULD YOU WANT
I'm technically transmed but I hate that label because it seems like 90% of people who call themselves transmed are 14 year olds who can't fucking read
I don't want to have the gender AIDs, I just have it, retard
then why do you think you're better than other trans people because of it?
It's like how cancer can be in remission but not cured, or how diabetics have to manage their condition chronically. To be trans is either to be currently suffering dysphoria, or to have suffered from dysphoria but it was alleviated by medical means. Cis people don't have the experience of having suffered dysphoria which was alleviated by cross-sex medical interventions
Ofc there's no cure we cannot be reborn xx or in another sex but hormones saves lives. (Well I tend to be anti natalist but anyway). Hormones can mimick to perfection (when it's taken early) a physic of the other sex. Sugeries are also a great help but yes the only cure would have be to be born in the sex we always felt like we were meant to be born in.
S* started
The only cure to dysphoria is medical transition. From my experience it was also the reliver of accepting my biological nature. So idc what the trenders believes in, truetrans dysphoric people needs they life saving care for godsake.
Their*
I mean it would be weird to not call a non-dysphoric completely passing trans girl trans so like I dunno. But I definitely think there's a difference with non-dysphorics and a lot of them tend to be really weird and just seem kinda off, I don't vibe with them. I do think you have to want to pass to be trans though, people who like don't even try are fucking abominations. Stealth is questionable too because like that's a massive sacrifice to completely just like sever everyone from your old life to go completely stealth. Like for me I'm around people who are supportive that I love so I'm not cutting myself off from them. Anyone new though I don't tell that I'm trans, I'm not openly trans.
> Passing
> Non dysphoric
Doesn't exist. He will def give natal sex vibe in his behaviour
transition has always been for transsexuals. only recently have we been pushed out of the conversation regarding trans people and transition. the transgender movement has demedicalized us in the eyes of the masses which has been catastrophic for us. and theyve even started to push the transsexuals off this board in recent years, i bet most people in the replies to this post are gender abolitionists who only are here because of the twitter gimmick accounts. transsexuals need to regain control of our own advocacy, unfortunately we are vastly outnumbered.