Everyone knows about the influence black people had on the development of American music, but no one talks about the white influence. What is the influence that whites had on music and where is it most noticeable nowadays?
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Which style of music? Classical music in America remained very white until pretty recently. Bluegrass and country have influence from predominantly "white" Appalachian music but share some traits with very old "black" music.
>Bluegrass and country have influence from predominantly "white" Appalachian music but share some traits with very old "black" music.
That's because blacks adopted the culture of southern whites since they were left almost without a culture one generation after arrival in the new world.
Jazz actually had a lot of influence from french up beat music
Black music is just twisted white music, jazz can be called orchestral music played "incorrectly" on purpose. This inherently destructive philosophy manifests itself today in the form of having no music at all and beats and whistles making up the entire "musical" composition of the music.
Whites have been very influential in American music
Crosby, Goodman, Sinatra, Elvis, The Beach Boys, etc
>That was black music though
It's American music which is a synthesis of European and African Harmonies and Rhythms. The artists I mentioned all did something unique that influenced generations of music.
moronic. Jazz is rhythmically distinct from classical music. It may sound like nothing to you but the vast majority of jazz has rules and a form that you're just not used to. Improvisation is not the same as deconstruction.
This is the fault of the music industry trying to sell records to an increasingly musically illiterate market. Not black people.
>Jazz is rhythmically distinct
yeah, it doesn't have a rhythm at all
>t. thinks jazz is something he heard on a simpsons episode
I accept your concession
>Jazz is rhythmically distinct from classical music.
please write out on manuscript what are these 'distinct jazz rhythmns'
all the syncopations and dotted rhythms that you probably associate with jazz were already done in classical music and in more complex ways
That's moronic, swing 8ths had never been done in classical music until European composers started borrowing from jazz, which they did by the way, see ravel.
And even if they were done before it came to be separately in Africa as well. Jazz was a combination of styles to make a new style it's not a "deconstruction"
You don't know what rhythm is
>swing 8ths
I googled, is this what rhythm it is? basically just a a crotchet-quaver in triplet form. lmao this is such a basic rhythm and was used forever in classical music
>Pic
missing the accents
>lmao this is such a basic rhythm and was used forever in classical music
Show me one instance of this being used as rhythmic background in any classical piece
Just do even the most basic cursory search on something before you start rambling on shit you obviously don't know, dude. You think this is highschool and you can fool the teacher by pretending you read the book?
It's beyond well known that classical music and jazz are two different schools with different approaches, but that jazz musicians tend to have more autonomy to move between these realms. Classical musicians are famously limited in a lot of things that jazz musicians are proficient in, especially in regards to rhythm, harmony and improvisation, but that's not to say the opposite can't happen. Either way you're beyond unsalvageable.
exactly. anon is a pseud
>jazz can be called orchestral music played "incorrectly" on purpose
How can you play it incorrectly without knowing what it is first? I doubt the first jazz musicians (club entertainers in New Orleans a century ago) all had conservatory training.
>How can you play it incorrectly
Because all jazz is is playing simple music and substituting notes randomly, there's not special about it. At the core of black music is this "substitution" because black music doesn't adhere to music theory. This comes from blacks learning music either by themselves or incorrectly from others and not being very good musicians. The fact that unironically "not paying the music well on purpose" became a genre in of itself is a huge insight into the american black.
Another thing is R&B, which "jazz" people don't like. Why? Because it's the halfway point between jazz and white commercially successful music. It's not "black" or "incorrect" enough for purists. Then the next step is "blues" which is basically just country music.
Realistically there is nothing blacks contributed to music
Lol a lot of genres of music are just another genre with "wrong" notes added here and there. You could say that's how Common Practice period music (c. 1600-1900) emerged from Renaissance music. Composers experimented with what sounded good or came up with their own theories about what COULD sound good or at least new - that's how music has always been.
>black music doesn't adhere to music theory
What do you mean? Music theory is partially a survey of how music is traditionally written/read (if applicable), described, and categorized, and partially speculation about how it "works" and affects us emotionally. It's something that's evolved continuously since ancient times, adapting after the fact to analyze new innovations in music performance or its academic study. We describe 18th century music using theoretical terms developed decades later. In that sense no musical style entirely "follows" music theory. At most, it follows the musical conventions of the time and place in which it was written or in which the composer was taught, and such conventional, unoriginal music doesn't make much of an impression on anyone unless the composer finds some other way to distinguish his work.
>music changes so jazz is music
jazz is a devolution of already existing music. you can see this with everything blacks ever did, any time they were given some sort of technology when they attempted to reproduce it they made a vastly inferior often non-functional variant of it. Then blacks point at this "non functioning" "invention" as something original they created.
In music the only less functional music is the less impactful, profound, or original music. African-American music is, like most New World music, a synthesis of other musical traditions. That doesn't make it inferior to any of its predecessors, just different.
Nobody cares about originality, the best jazz was the less improvised jazz, that's why it sold better because it sounded better. The best jazz musicians used the same patterns when they were supposed to be improvising, jazz on its face is a complete failure of music.
Also there's nothing "african" about improvising. There's a reason why all the "true jazz" improvised shit isn't remembered, because it sucked. There's a difference between working at a bar strung out on heroin barely remembering how to play music so you wing it and being a successful musician
Jazz is still based on improvising. There's generally an underlying chord structure and some pointers for the melody, but the rest is up to the performer. Compare sheet music for a jazz piece to that for a classical piece if you want an illustration, and listen to recordings of both. Then compare two recordings of the same jazz piece. They're never exactly 1:1.
I don't know which African musical tradition contributed the practice of improvisation to jazz, but I know that jazz rhythms and tonality are distinct from those of "whiter" styles of music and older "black" styles. The difference is unmistakable.
Jazz is dead so there's no "jazz is", it's ""jazz was".
>I don't know which African musical tradition contributed the practice of improvisation to jazz
because there isn't one
>The difference is unmistakable.
who knew playing music incorrectly on purpose to sound different would sound different
I was literally at a jazz concert the other night. It's not as lucrative as pop but it's alive.
>there isn't one
Literally every culture on Earth has music. West African cultures are no exception.
>incorrectly
It's not incorrect if it's deliberate and you create something new out of it. Even within classical music, which is generally very by-the-book compared to other genres, artists may differ in some details, according to personal taste, the edition of the sheet music, and their value of fidelity to the written score. People will unironically debate about details like ornamentation, and there are so many takes that it's impossible to claim a single objective one; you have to personally take a look at the music and its context, listen to what different performers think, and judge for yourself what you prefer.
t. I actually study and play classical music and have seen this happen a million times
>blacks exist
>blacks play white music incorrectly on purpose for attention
>name it jazz
>basically the first rap music where "artists" try to "out music" other artists
>i-it's real music
Yeah it's music, it's white music, the only thing that sets it apart is the fake shit they add to it to try and make it unique. Jazz is like playing a piano normally and then smearing peanut butter all over the keys so that you slip and hit the wrong keys sometimes. On purpose. There's nothing special about it in the least. It's anti-intellectual and anybody that likes it is a pseud.
What are you smoking? Attention had nothing to do with it any more than any musician gets "attention." And jazz songs weren't just white songs - they include original compositions. The "white" elements were some aspects of functional tonality and most of the instrumentation.
Again "original" means shit all when talking about blacks
this is original to a black
That's just poor people engineering. I saw some Hispanic looking guy driving a van the other day which had a window mounted A/C unit in the back window and a generator was strapped to the bumper. I also had this friend growing up who was a poor white dude that had both his TV and radio antennas made out of wire hangers.
>That's just poor people
okay so black people, "rich" black don't do anything, you don't hear about well off blacks inventing anything. Hell if you really look into it blacks haven't invented anything ever.
Great composers stole all the time too.
jazz isn't stealing music, it's playing it incorrectly, like that picture of the car
I already said you can't really play music incorrectly if you make it your own.
>you can't really play music incorrectly
okay well you're a moron, and that explains why you like jazz
If you add spices and ingredients to a soup not in the original recipe, it can be called something new. That's how it is with music. Chopin was not a great imitator of Mozart's compositional style, but he was a great composer in his own right precisely because he developed his own style.
>spices
okay but most people would agree blacks weren't adding spice, they were adding shit
Who can objectively say that? Jazz music has some works that have become iconic and are recognized even abroad.
>Who can objectively say that
you can paly dumb but there's plenty of people from the height of jazz popularity that shit all over it
Source? Even if real it's not necessarily true. Some composers were intensely self-critical.
>source
>I still wont believe it if you show me one
okay
cant even post a fricking source sad. Its clear that a jazz musician fricked a girl you liked. Not your girl because you clearly couldnt get laid in vegas with 10k in a bag.
>lose argument
>starts talking about his dick
typical Black person
Cant post source, for his buttblasted statements, Decides that means he won because his mom told him.
Post source schizo, for anything you are saying
this dude doesn't like jazz yet actually thinks he understand music or is even qualified to give an opinion
someone spread some cheese on this fricking dry ass cracker.
jazz is the most hated music genera in the US, nobody likes jazz
I started chuckling to myself when he started going on about how jazz is just badly played white music with wrong notes.
>jazz is just badly played white music with wrong notes
you can't type into google right now and get the same answer for why nobody likes jazz
Here's the thing about music: a lot of what you hear people say about it is just their opinion, since a given piece affects people differently. What they say can have no objective basis or can even be incoherent. That's why it's important to approach the field with both a critical eye and a respect for individual preferences.
If a lot of people, and that's most people, think that jazz sounds like music played incorrectly then it doesn't really matter what they're really "going for" and that's why jazz is dead
>Pop music today is comprised of a monochordal riff consisting of a basic scale played on some sort of digital synthesizer, set to a 4/4 time at 120 bpm (thanks to Steve Chall for the correction.) with the bass and vocals so hot you can't hear that there's no other music behind it. There might be a string swell in there somewhere if you're lucky. And if it's not hip-hop, and it actually has a chord structure, then 9 times out of 10 it'll be a I-V-vi-IV structure over and over again; whether it's Taylor Swift, One Republic or Maroon 5. So sad and uncreative. But then again, it IS pop music; which caters to what the masses want to hear. I blame the masses for putting up with it. If these crappy songs didn't make millions, they wouldn't exist. The music industry has been allowed to get lazier due to the public not caring about what goes into their ears.
Black folk have ruined music
>Black folk have ruined music
So for 400 years?
>I blame the masses for putting up with it. If these crappy songs didn't make millions, they wouldn't exist. The music industry has been allowed to get lazier due to the public not caring about what goes into their ears.
>confused liberal observes that plebs are plebs
Rock n roll (and technically all forms of rock descending from it) is a melding of black blues and r&b with white country and western. Most electronic black genres (house, techno, electro and to some degree hip hop) wouldn't exist without Kraftwerk although they aren't American
>but no one talks about the white influence
yeah nah
>What is the influence that whites had on music and where is it most noticeable nowadays?
basically all of American 'black music' was influenced by whites.
Scot Joplin wouldn't have called himself a jazz or ragtime composer, he would just have called himself a composer because he studied western artmusic and harmony and all the basic musical tenants of jazz or blues in terms of instrumentation or rhythm or harmony were from European classical music
"Black" music (pre-cRap) was simply euro-american folk music.
>(pre-cRap)
Rap battles are literally just rhyming insults and roasts at each other to a beat, it's basically Bards and Skalds of old boasting about their exploits (fricking women and having shiny gold) while dissing their rivals lmao
Blondie invented rap. It was not invented by blacks.
>but no one talks about the white influence
You should consider yourself lucky that it's not illegal to be this stupid. I'm amazed people like you are allowed in society.
Don't even try to pretend like this was just a joke and you were just pretending to be moronic.
seeth more, white boi. blacks were not writing music in africa, whites were making masterpieces before we came to america.
For a humanities board the lack of knowledge of musical theory here is astounding.
Do you clowns spend your entire days reading about WW2 and haplogroups?
Music theory is genuinely very "inaccessible" and elitist. Very few schools around the world offer indepth and well taught music classes to kids, so unless your parents put you in private lessons or you study it in College, it's kinda hard to really know Music Theory well.
>t. Attended Portuguese and French schools
Yeah but I wouldn't expect just about anyone to end up on a humanities board, in a music thread, if they don't know at least some basic music theory.
Like, this is really basic shit. Boiling it down to its simplest, 'explain me like i'm 5' format, it'd be:
>Harmony (chords) are primarily a concept that was developed in European culture, primarily studied in depth by classical composers
>Mostly anywhere in the world, even some jazz schools, primarily teach the system of functional harmony invented by white europeans as THE system of functional harmony. Although this could be argued, no one really argues against it anyway.
>b-but why can't anyone talk about the whites!
OP is a literal moron. Anyone in this thread trying to defend him is relinquishing their intellectual status.
>Show me one instance of this being used as rhythmic background in any classical piece
a two to 1 rhythm? super common, basically any compound meter. The excerpt from The Beethoven piece contains the rhythm
. If you want it specifically in a triplet form in 4/4 I'm not really bothered to look rn but it's not that uncommon especially in the romantic period
>''do you research, chud''
>adam neely
lol
Do I have to explain what "basic cursory" means now? Plus, should be extra easy for you to deboonk that cringe and bluepilled berklee post-graduate youtuber, right?
Imagine unironically trying to defend some moronic boomer talking point like "jazz is just classical without the rhythm and all the wrong notes amirite" and thinking you're sounding smart. Holy mother of fricking cringeola.
I'm not really sure what to debunk because the video was so moronic from start to finish. Classical performance may be different to other genres in that it is not autistic about slavishly sticking to a strict tempo the whole way through. Most of his observations are pseudo science and cherry picking
You sound buttblasted. There's a reason jazz is dead
Considerably less dead than classical music.
There are huge jazz shows all over the country, much larger than classical. and outside the US, Jazz is very popular in japan and the UK. I listen to modern jazz all the time and go to shows. They are usually sold out.
Jazz is the LEAST popular music in the US
woah I thought it was dead buddy?
post your fricking data moron. And just because someone goes and sees les mis at the local theatre because their cousin is in it doesnt meant they like classical music
>I thought it was dead
can't get much more dead than a bloated rotting corpse, what is your agenda here?
"pop" has always been an extension of Anglo culture, even high Anglo culture as from the English Renaissance onwards they've produced a great number of dance-themed or tragic pieces and fragments that have survived. But compared to continentals, Anglos have produced very few composers or pieces of great importance.
Even per Capita over time Brits produced most of the famous popular musicians by far, followed by Anglo and Irish burgers and blacks. Compare Joaquin Des Pres with some of Henry VIII's pieces (he was a really talented composer fr no cap) and you'll see what I mean.
Black influence on music is instinctual. That's how jazz and blues even developed. It's mostly Euro instruments and structure and everything, however it is intentionally void of harmony and rich with polyrhythm, as is most equivalent SSA music.
Many genres are a complete blend of Anglo or Scots-irish and black. If you take a genre like country music (not so much contemporary necessarily as it is easily more "black" in many ways) many of the songs are sad. It is intentional because those smaller tragic tunes are meant to see through the catharsis of the depressive emotion. But going back to Hank Williams, he used that lyrical style but combined it with a black style of guitar playing, which he famously learned from a blues guitarist.
Whereas black American music takes a different approach, one of defiance of the emotional state of even aggression towards it or something external and pride in that defiance, this became various genres such as soul and blues but the lyrical tradition often stems from hymnal and choir music (Anglo) or folk tunes that inspired black American kino.
White people in America made a shitload of metal after it was invented in the UK. Don't think you'd have most metal if white people weren't around, although Latinos make some good metal too
honestly? as far as American music goes, whites have had little real influence. I'm not even saying this to be contrarian or anything. Any music considered uniquely "American" is usually just something with jazz/rock roots which both are objectively "black" genres even though they were often popularized by whites who took them and developed them further and/or made them accessible to white listeners.
i wish i could give you an answer but any time you think you've found a white person making an original musical contribution in American there is usually a black musician who they were copying