Ethics of torture


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What's your opinion on torture?

Useful information/correctional tool or an example of evil behavior?

  1. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    Not useful for information retrieval, they just tell you what they think you want to hear regardless of whether it's true or not.
    For behaviour correction? Great. And the only thing simple people (criminals dumb enough to get caught) will respond to.

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      >For behaviour correction? Great. And the only thing simple people (criminals dumb enough to get caught) will respond to.
      It's "great" if you want to create another monster.

      Evil. Anybody that tortures is my enemy. Absolute red line you do not cross and remain a human.

      This

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        >torture criminals
        >they go full schizo and are now even more dangerous

        Even the death penalty is less harmful to society than torture.

        That's if you're retarded about it and torture for no reason, if you do it in response to specific behaviors you want to minimalize it works like a Pavlovian response.

        >if you attack other inmates you get tortured
        >inter-inmate attacks reduce to 0%

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          In theory yeah, but in reality you end up with people who are even more violent and unpredictable and harder to handle.

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          >if you do X, you get Y
          >X rates drop to zero

          Not how the world works.

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      >torture criminals
      >they go full schizo and are now even more dangerous

      Even the death penalty is less harmful to society than torture.

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      > Not useful for information retrieval, they just tell you what they think you want to hear regardless of whether it's true or not.
      Might be true for yes or no questions, but what about stuff only they could possibly know and that you know they know? I think most people who do crack under torture crack very quickly and those who stick it out do so until the very end

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        >what about stuff only they could possibly know and that you know they know?
        The info may not be exactly accurate. If there's stuff that they are not 100% sure is true or ambitious they'll say it is just to avoid further torture.

        In a lot of countries the use of interrogation to harass and sleep drive the target is used to get a confession out of them.

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      The normie opinion is unironically correct on this one. Confessions given under duress are extremely unreliable and it's pretty reprehensible anyway.

      Hans Scharff demonstrated how unnecessary it is

      >if you torture somebody for information, they'll just tell you any bullshit to make it stop
      >if you torture somebody as punishment, you just make them even more pissed off or you cripple them for life

      Torture apologists are just sadists and psychopaths.

      This is plain not true though, torture does work in certain situations. If someone put bamboo splinters under my fingernails I would tell them the password to my computer in a heartbeat and so would you unless you happen to be gigachad rambo with 300 tours of duty in the navy seals. If the interrogator understands psychology and goes about it logically, torture can be a useful tool.

      Hanns Scharff used the threat of gestapo torture to ask menial questions to downed pilots who had little useful information, it does not discount the use of torture in different situations.

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        What if they didn't want your password and jsut wnted someone to torture? A lot of torture secession actually are just sadists getting off on it, conjuring up meme reasons why torturing some random dude is needed and to generate fear.

        AFAIK the battle of Algiers was won by relying upon torture, now let's not pretend that the Algerian war was the cleanest conflict ever

        The use of torture among other things basically fucked France up. It basically meant that for all people in the colonies torture as a tool was on the table.

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          >What if they didn't want your password and jsut wnted someone to torture? A lot of torture secession actually are just sadists getting off on it
          You're thinking of hollywood movie torture or pre-murder torture like Mexican cartels do to their victims. Actual torture for information conducted by intelligence agencies doesn't work like that. There's not much sadism to be had and it's a much longer process than just mutilating some guy in a room for a couple of hours.

          • 7 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Actual torture for information conducted by intelligence agencies doesn't work like that
            A lot of it do or come clsoe to it. Several polcie departments in many parts of the world basically use sleep deprivation to force confessions like in Japan.

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          >It basically meant that for all people in the colonies torture as a tool was on the table.
          Algeria was the colony to which France would cling the most, notably for the reason there it was basically France (3 departments) and there was a significant European population.

          • 7 months ago
            Anonymous

            >there was a significant European population.
            A ton of them weren't French.

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        >If someone put bamboo splinters under my fingernails I would tell them the password to my computer in a heartbeat
        You would also say that if they just pointed a gun to your head.
        Also it doesn't contradict what the anon said, the password and other shit like that is what you thought they wanted.

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        The problem is that you're muddying the waters with a bunch of potential bullshit.

        The easier path is to go "hey, you can cooperate with us and we'll just let you go, or you can fuck with us and go to a POW camp forever"

  2. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    The normie opinion is unironically correct on this one. Confessions given under duress are extremely unreliable and it's pretty reprehensible anyway.

  3. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    Evil. Anybody that tortures is my enemy. Absolute red line you do not cross and remain a human.

  4. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    Hans Scharff demonstrated how unnecessary it is

  5. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    >if you torture somebody for information, they'll just tell you any bullshit to make it stop
    >if you torture somebody as punishment, you just make them even more pissed off or you cripple them for life

    Torture apologists are just sadists and psychopaths.

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      >if you torture somebody for information, they'll just tell you any bullshit to make it stop
      So you keep going until they tell you everything.

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      >>if you torture somebody for information, they'll just tell you any bullshit to make it stop
      interrogators already know this. they punish this behavior very harshly. they basically keep pressing with torture and punishing lies until the person's will is completely broken.
      >>if you torture somebody as punishment, you just make them even more pissed off or you cripple them for life
      you underestimate what torture does to a person's psyche, they won't get revenge. also it functions as a preventative measure. less people are going to commit crime when they know they will be skinned alive if caught

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        >less people are going to commit crime when they know they will be skinned alive if caught
        Didn't seem to work in the middle ages. London used to be as dangerous as some of the bad cities in America are today.

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      >if you torture somebody for information, they'll just tell you any bullshit to make it stop
      That's why you'd "interrogate" 2-4 guys separately, to corroborate their stories.

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        You think Osama Bin Laden and some goat fucker with an AK share information?

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          Who said anything about finding bin laden? Sometimes you just need to find the position of this explosives factory or that safehouse. Grunts know plenty of things.

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        that makes it worse, especially when stress causes accounts to be extremely variable.

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        >animeposter is a retard
        Can't even act like I am surprised

  6. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    >GTA is about robbing and killing people
    >but torture is bad m'kay even if you use it stop a terrorist

    That mission was nothing but liberal propaganda

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      I legitimately can't tell if this mission was supposed to be a satire on torture or if just a joke since Trevor is violent individual therefore it's supposed to be funny that he's against torture

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        It's a weird mix of both.
        Torture used to be a hot button issue back then and Rockstar decided to take the piss on it with Trevor.

        >FBI and CIA are fighting to kill terrorists for funding
        >FBI kidnaps a CIA assets and tortures him for info to get the terrorist and they employ 3 criminals to help them
        >Trevor may be a sociopath but he's somehow sane enough to see torture is futile

        The main message is that torture is useless and government is corrupt.

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          >Rockstar criticizing torture when they created Manhunt which got an 18+ and is considered one of the most violent games ever made along side Postal and Hatred

          • 7 months ago
            Anonymous

            >company that makes violent vidya can't satirize real world torture
            huh?

            • 7 months ago
              Anonymous

              Because it's a violent video game where you can mow down random pedestrians so it's seems very jarring to have a mission criticizing torture by having you torture a guy. The character you play in said mission is a psychopath who goes on a rant about the evils of torture with the guy he just tortured. This character mind will later kill a man and shove his body parts in a fridge as a comedic joke. So I'm sorry some people find it weird way to do satire.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                It's a violent video where you can murder random people in the street and go on shooting rampages against innocent bystanders and the main characters are criminals so having satire criticizing just seems weird.

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          >Torture used to be a hot button issue back then
          >2015

          • 7 months ago
            Anonymous

            Member when people were worried about Muslims taking over Europe during the refugee crisis?

            Member Trump?

            Member Assad?

            Member Gamergate?

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        I figured that Trevor was just a hypocrite. He sees his violence as justified because either they offended him or had something that he wanted. State sanctioned violence is not ever justified under his sense of "justice"

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      It's Rockstar dude, they are some of the most pozzed homosexuals there are.

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        It was satire.

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          If it was an isolated context perhaps but you need only look at other examples in their games to see that there is an overarching bias.

          • 7 months ago
            Anonymous

            What overarching bias? they shit on both sides.

            • 7 months ago
              Anonymous

              Take any number of examples from RDR2

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      >GTA is about open-world missions
      >now press X to trigger the animation to torture the guy
      >press Y to torture him differently and watch the animation
      >tap X rapidly to torture him some more and listen to the dialogue
      >Mission Complete

  7. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    Sometimes justified, but the government shouldn't be allowed to do it ever, for any reason, because the government can not be trusted to only do it when it's justified.

  8. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    I feel like modern interrogators have pretty stupid ideas regarding torture because they're detached from the OG torturers of the past.

    If you look up ancient & medieval tortures, they were really only done:
    1) As a form of punishment, especially to those who have been condemned to death as a form of retributive "justice and
    2) Upon those who are already confirmed to guilty by either being caught in the act or initial investigation, where torture is used to extract details on the crime, not confessions of guilt.

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      Most of the time, especially in dictatorships, they simply torture people they don't like to get them to confess to "crimes" which would justify killing them.

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        This was the modus operandi of Stalin's NKVD. They'd kidnap rival politicians or just random people and usually either deprived them of sleep for days or tied them to a chair and beat the ever loving shit out of them. Once they confessed to sabotage or espionage or whatever they were shot.

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      Torture is good, just not for information gathering. We need more torture in our penal system imo.

      This anon gets it.

      It's ironic that so many homosexuals are against torture but make 'don't drop the soap' jokes about prisons and are practically giddy over the rape and monstrous conditions of the penal system. I really don't understand the contradiction.

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      Citation needed.

  9. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    "Traditional" torture is more likely to get you harmfully false information than truth. It can be very useful, however, in the rare situation that you're not time-constrained and able to verify or falsify the information without detriment. If the information turns out to be false, you simply resume the torture, and repeat as many times as necessary.
    More effective, if you have access to a spouse or other loved one of the subject, is to threaten torture or actually inflict it on them, and leave the subject unharmed during questioning. Familial and romantic bonds frequently override a subject's other commitments under duress. This is much less likely to be productive with a psychopathic subject though, and you're unlikely to be able to determine that reliably, so caveat emptor.
    Like any tool, its use is situational. Definitely very evil though.

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      >you simply resume the torture, and repeat as many times as necessary.
      Then you end up breaking the guy. either that or if they die the other side kills one of your men in retaliation or tortures them.

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        You're considering a very limited scope of situations where torture can be used.
        >Then you end up breaking the guy
        Man, you would suck at torture

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          A lot of the torture people have done ended up doing long term or permanent damage to the physical and mental health of the target in question.

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          underage larp, go read a book

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      Like the other guy said people are psychologically flawed and would have a good chance of just breaking down completely under repeated torture like that.

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      based.

  10. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    So torture doesn't work, how do you extract vital information from someone?

  11. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    When people tell me the death penalty doesn’t reduce crime I’m like yeah bro no shit. You’re not trying hard enough

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      The periods where public torture was legal were also the most crime ridden of any in European history

  12. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    AFAIK the battle of Algiers was won by relying upon torture, now let's not pretend that the Algerian war was the cleanest conflict ever

  13. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    I don't know why people believe that torture doesn't work. Of course it works. That's why people have used it for thousands of years. The trope that "people will say anything" assumes you have no other intel to cross-reference and holes can't be found in someone's story. The commander of the French forces in Algeria during the revolt said torture absolutely does work and everyone cracks. No this doesn't mean it is ethical and that the state should have the right to do it. But the idea that it doesn't work is a baseless meme.

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      You completely don't get it. They'll give you bad/false info or make up stuff to avoid pain. that's why info gained off torture is shitty in general. If you were tortured you'd say anything to escape it.

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      You are referencing one of the only verifiable times that it has worked out so well. Most of the time you don't have the time or ability to cross reference information, and false information given my a tortured prisoner is 10x worse than no information at all in almost every case. I feel like you just want to be contrary to a prevailing opinion and act like you know something most people don't, when in fact you are only tangentially familiar with the argument.

  14. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    Unless you can easily verify what the subject is saying it's not even close to the best way to gather information. Putting captives together in discretely bugged rooms is better for gathering general purpose information, having the subject try to justify themselves to a "friendly" interviewer is better for getting confessions from most people, and projecting total control over the subject's future is better for flipping subjects. Nor is it very good as a deterrent, to the extent long term consequences can influence criminal decision making the perceived likelihood of punishment is much more important than the severity of the punishment (beyond a certain low bar).

  15. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    Mostly pointless.
    But it's a lot of fun

  16. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    Even not entering the moral discussion, it's unnecessary and unreliable

    There are better ways to gather information and psychological warfare is way better at fucking with someone's head

  17. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    Sometimes punishment in the next life isnt enough.

  18. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    Torturers and their supporters belong on a watchlist or in a psychiatrist's office.

  19. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    The problem with torture is the same as life in prison. Both are excessively cruel to innocent people when wrongful convictions happen. This is why the death penalty is the better punishment for crimes.

  20. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    It's only practical use is as a terror tactic.

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