Economists: stupid, or liars?


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> “The way you combat inflation is by either increasing supply relative to demand or…reducing demand relative to supply” says Michael Pettis, finance professor at Peking University and coauthor of Trade Wars Are Class Wars. “Imposing tariffs and removing tariffs do neither.”

Sometimes you see someone say something in a respectable publication that just pisses you off. How do economists keep getting away with this kind of cretinous behavior? Real sciences try earnestly to convey their knowledge clearly to the layman. Economists obfuscate simple things to trick the public into accepting political outcomes they prefer.

  1. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    >finance professor at Peking University

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      >not an argument you retarded nagger

  2. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    Inflation means there's too much money relative to goods and services. The exchange value of money therefore drops, which messes with people who have saved money, or work for a set wage.
    You "correct" the ratio by either reducing the amount of money circulating (by increasing inerest rates, convincing people to keep their money hostage at a bank) or by increasing production.
    Production is already increasing, since we left the COVID-19 lockdown period. However, China decided to have another lockdown, and fucked production. When they grow out of it, inflaiton will drop.
    Another temporary source of inflation is the ridiculus price of fuels, and speculation on the price of wheat, due to the invasion of Ukraine and the embargo on Russia. These are both temporary and economies will adjust. It takes 1 year to adjust to wheat, you just plant more instead of cotton or whatever.
    Also economy is not a science, its literally people making shit up to fit what they are observing. It has near zero predictive value. Its astrology for rich people.

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      Also we increased the money supply drastically in the past two years

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        >Also we increased the money supply drastically in the past two years
        And we reduced the supply of goods drastically during the last six months, with China locking down again, and Russia invading Ukraine. Its not just le fed print le mone brrrrrr

  3. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    The way you combat inflation is by printing less money. Any other answer is dishonest and politically motivated.

  4. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    >“The way you combat inflation is by either increasing supply relative to demand or…reducing demand relative to supply”
    anon... that's basic economics.

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      That's how you lower prices. Not inflation. They are different things. Conflating "rising prices" with "inflation" is how they've gotten away with dishonesty for so long.

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        How the fuck do you think inflation is calculated? What do you think the consumer price index is?

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          >the tool used to measure something is the thing itself!
          u dumb

          • 7 months ago
            Anonymous

            >In economics, inflation is a general increase in the prices of goods and services in an economy.[3] When the general price level rises, each unit of currency buys fewer goods and services; consequently, inflation corresponds to a reduction in the purchasing power of money.[4][5] The opposite of inflation is deflation, a sustained decrease in the general price level of goods and services. The common measure of inflation is the inflation rate, the annualized percentage change in a general price index.[6] As prices do not all increase at the same rate, the consumer price index (CPI) is often used for this purpose. The employment cost index is also used for wages in the United States.
            So yes, if you're lowering prices then you're combating inflation.

            • 7 months ago
              Anonymous

              Inflation is the growth of the money supply. That is it. Increases in prices are a result of that, but they are not inflation itself. No, I don't care what wikipedia says.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Inflation is the growth of the money supply. That is it.
                No, retard. Inflation is the growth of money supply IN RELATION to the supply of goods. You can get inflation with the same volume of money, if the production of goods is lowered.
                Inflation is a reduction of the purchasing power of money, that is the exchange value of currency against goods in a given economy, that is PRICES OF STUFF.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                Inflation is the growth of the money supply. Nothing more. The rest of that is bullshit that retards like you have been fed.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                It contributed to rising prices. Not inflation. Prices can change due to factors other than inflation.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                Meant for

                That is simply not correct. One of the biggest causes of inflation in America in the past few decades is the shift from blue collar to white collar -and thus higher paying- jobs. This increase in income contributes to inflation because prices tend to orbit medium incomes because that's where money has the highest velocity. This happens even if no money is being printed.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                Meant for [...]

                You have it backwards, inflation doesn't cause prices to go up, prices going up causes inflation.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                Prices going up doesn't cause inflation, it IS inflation. That's what inflation means.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                >wet roads cause rain!

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                Yes that's basically what you're saying.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                >if the production of goods is lowered.
                Shortages == inflation?

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                Least retarded libertarian.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                That is simply not correct. One of the biggest causes of inflation in America in the past few decades is the shift from blue collar to white collar -and thus higher paying- jobs. This increase in income contributes to inflation because prices tend to orbit medium incomes because that's where money has the highest velocity. This happens even if no money is being printed.

          • 7 months ago
            Anonymous

            bait

          • 7 months ago
            Anonymous

            Inflation == the difference in cost of some preselected list of goods and services. That is, inflation is a graph of prices. So your comment

            That's how you lower prices. Not inflation. They are different things. Conflating "rising prices" with "inflation" is how they've gotten away with dishonesty for so long.

            >That's how you lower prices. Not inflation. They are different things.
            is retarded. Retard.

            • 7 months ago
              Anonymous

              No, retard that's a tool for measuring inflation. It is not inflation itself.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                Imagine a colony on Mars. They have a currency, called the Mars Credit. There is a set amount of credits, and it doesn't change.
                Most of their food and fuel comes from Earth. A hamburger costs 20 credits. A bottle of water costs 10 credits.
                But oh no! There has been a solar flare, and the shipment from Earth will be delayed! Our supply of goods is not being replenished.
                So now that the amount of hamburgers and waters goes down, their price goes up. This happens even though the supply of money remains the same.
                And that's called.... inflation! The value of hamburgers inflates (increases) relative to the value of credits.

                Or now imagine if some contraction in production happened on Earth, like a COVID-19 lockdown of factories. And imagine some contraction in the trade of raw resources happened, like the two big fuel/wheat producers fighting each other. And now imagine if the world's workship decided to do a Zero COVID policy, and shut down the single most productive mega-city on the planet. Would this not also affect the rising prices of goods? Or is it just LOL FED PRINT MONAY

                >if the production of goods is lowered.
                Shortages == inflation?

                Shortage in the supply of X, while demand for X is the same or grows, will raise (inflate) the price of X. This is economics 101.
                Inflation means something growing in value against the value of money. This can be because money gets cheaper, or because stuff gets more valuable. Abundance of money, or scarcity of goods.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                Prices can change due to things other than inflation, that doesn't make those things inflation.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                Inflation means that the supply of money exceed the demand for money. You insist this must be because the supply increased. But it could be because the demand fell. Because there's less stuff to buy. Or fewer people. Or the government pays you to keep your money hostage in some account, therefore its not in demand on the market.
                You just insist that one kind of inflation is all of inflation.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                See

                Prices can change due to things other than inflation, that doesn't make those things inflation.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Shortage in the supply of X, while demand for X is the same or grows, will raise (inflate) the price of X. This is economics 101.
                Ok, it's fine for me, so in this case inflation is a phenomenon caused by scarce resources with high demand.

                Now the question is, is it created by the decrease of supply, or the increase of demand caused? What caused the demand/supply to increase or decrease?

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                Either, or both.
                But the person I'm arguing with (is it you?) insists that it MUST be an increase in the supply. This isn't the case, it could be a reduction of demand, as per

                Inflation means that the supply of money exceed the demand for money. You insist this must be because the supply increased. But it could be because the demand fell. Because there's less stuff to buy. Or fewer people. Or the government pays you to keep your money hostage in some account, therefore its not in demand on the market.
                You just insist that one kind of inflation is all of inflation.

                See [...]

                see

                Least retarded libertarian.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                >is it you?
                No, i'm just following the discussion, sorry to pop in :3

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                >What caused the demand/supply to increase or decrease?
                While there are any number of circumstantial causes that could happen, the only consistent cause of increased demand is rising population and the only consistent cause of rising supply is rising production.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                >the only consistent cause of increased demand is rising population and the only consistent cause of rising supply is rising production.
                I think it's very reductive, the price of produced good can go down if businesses find new ways to produce stuff in more efficient ways, so it's more about productive capacity in this case and not making more stuff (unless we're talking about economies of scale).
                Rising population as well it means inflation of food, but economy is not just food.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                >the price of produced good can go down if businesses find new ways to produce stuff in more efficient ways, so it's more about productive capacity in this case and not making more stuff
                Sure but unless there's competition then there's no reason to lower prices instead of just improving your margins. That's what I mean by circumstantial.
                >Rising population as well it means inflation of food, but economy is not just food.
                The demand of just about everything on the consumer price index will go up with population.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Sure but unless there's competition then there's no reason to lower prices instead of just improving your margins
                Except there is competition, unless you have some way to refrain competitors from entering the market. Improving your margins makes people buy less and it's going to attract competition, technological and social innovation proved this countless of times.
                >The demand of just about everything on the consumer price index will go up with population.
                It's not always the case, take the graphic cards market, a good chunk of demand comes from crypto mining industries. The last three months bitcoin crashed and miners started selling their graphic cards because it's less convenient consuming electricity to mine 1 btc and sell it at 20k, crashing the prices of graphic cards as well, and this despite the growing gaming industry creating demand for that stuff.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                Can there be competition though if they are a monopoly or duopoly that uses advanced technology, legal fuckery, and plain old mafiaism to stifle competition?

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                >plain old mafiaism
                Yes, it requires the use of force, at this point the company can take the role of the state and even get taxes like any state because of that.
                >legal fuckery
                Yes, you need to find a way to take advantage of some regulation.
                >Can there be competition though if they are a monopoly or duopoly that uses advanced technology
                If you have advanced technology and charge high prices, any company without such technology can steal your customers anyways because they can charge lower prices than your. You're forced to keep prices lower than that.

                You can also try with a cartel (bunch of existing companies of the same sector in agreement to keep the price high), but cartels are not very stable and they usually devolve in price wars to steal customers from each others.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                >competition
                If there are 5 phone operators in a country, they would all lose from a price war, forcing the price down. So they come to an agreement on what the price will be. And the government doesn't mind it, because it doesn't want to deal with one company being outcompeted so hard they leave the market, and suddenly a million people bitch and moan about how their phone numbers became invalid and they lost their social network.
                The big guys like the cartel and form a sort of federation to be monopolists together, and the state doesn't break it because it likes the stability it brings. And we call this the ~free market~. Which is very different compared to if the state had a Ministry of Phones and did the same thing, except without the need for growing profits, so lower prices. That's disgusting ugly socialist communism, and probably European too.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                Cartels like i said previously are not very stable, forcing high prices is going to incentivize companies outside that cartel to provide stuff at lower costs, and in a globalized economy it's even more difficult to maintain that.
                AND they are incentivized to fuck each others as well despite being an oligopoly.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                The phone example is based on a true story. Power supply and cable TV also work similarly. This has lasted ~15 years now.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                >The phone example is based on a true story. Power supply and cable TV also work similarly
                Link?
                Also we should take into account if there are any regulations refraining competitors from starting new phone companies.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Link?
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria

                >Also we should take into account if there are any regulations refraining competitors from starting new phone companies.
                There is, the cooperation of the mafia with the government. Stability over efficiency, and each get their cut. Investors don't want to enter, because the government supports the established players over them.
                I am sure the same is similar in Greece, Romania, etc, in the same or different economic sectors where you need a huge investment and government support to operate (like installing antennas, power cables, etc). And I know for a fact cable TV and internet providers in the USA are even worse about this stuff, to the point where they have an understanding of which cities are who's territory, and permit full monopolies.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                >There is, the cooperation of the mafia with the government
                Ok, so we have a problem of cronyism and corruption, like where i live.

                [...]
                Oh, whoops, "mafia" is local slang for organized crime, not sure it has the same meaning in english. I am not referring to drug trafficking or anything like that, just cartels.

                >"mafia" is local slang for organized crime, not sure it has the same meaning in english
                I understand, i'm southern european.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Link?
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria

                >Also we should take into account if there are any regulations refraining competitors from starting new phone companies.
                There is, the cooperation of the mafia with the government. Stability over efficiency, and each get their cut. Investors don't want to enter, because the government supports the established players over them.
                I am sure the same is similar in Greece, Romania, etc, in the same or different economic sectors where you need a huge investment and government support to operate (like installing antennas, power cables, etc). And I know for a fact cable TV and internet providers in the USA are even worse about this stuff, to the point where they have an understanding of which cities are who's territory, and permit full monopolies.

                Oh, whoops, "mafia" is local slang for organized crime, not sure it has the same meaning in english. I am not referring to drug trafficking or anything like that, just cartels.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                >It's not always the case, take the graphic cards market, a good chunk of demand comes from crypto mining industries
                Yes but that is also circumstantial, I said the only consistent force increasing demand is rising population.
                >The last three months bitcoin crashed and miners started selling their graphic cards because it's less convenient consuming electricity to mine 1 btc and sell it at 20k, crashing the prices of graphic cards as well, and this despite the growing gaming industry creating demand for that stuff.
                That's an increase in supply and a decrease in demand.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                >I said the only consistent force increasing demand is rising population.
                Fine.
                >That's an increase in supply and a decrease in demand.
                True, that is an increase in supply of USED cards, if companies are willing to recycle it's going to decrease rare metals prices to make new cards.

                Not that used cards are not useful, i have a refurbished graphic card costing me less money and it works very well after 1 year.

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      It is a factor, but it wouldn't work in Germany during the hyperinflation, in Venezuela or Zimbabwe.

      Quantitative easing, stimulus spending and so on does increase inflation and denialism just outs you as some kind of shill.

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        If you reduce the money supply, you WILL reduce inflation. The issue is that you will also reduce your economy to ruin. All the businesses that are short on capital (for example due to the COVID-19 lockdown) will go bankrupt if interest rates are raised. They need the loose money. And if they go, unemployment shoots up. And you get people in the streets, rioting.
        So people in power prefer dealing with inflation, to dealing with revolution.

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          Nothing new under the sun. Look at economic crashes in the West last century. People picked up the pieces and built it back up. Never ending printing on the other hand has many much more interesting historical examples

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          >So people in power prefer dealing with inflation, to dealing with revolution.
          But it's retarded behavior, you're forced to rise rates to not kill your currency afterward, like the ECB and the fed is doing right now.

          • 7 months ago
            Anonymous

            Okay, lets roleplay the opposite variant.
            >your party in power increases interest rates
            >businesses in debt go bankrupt due to expensive loans
            >people put their money in banks, rather than spend or invest
            >unemployment shoots up
            >opposition party capitalizes with populist rhetoric about fixing this
            >they win next elections in a landslide
            >interest rates lowered, inflation back on he rise
            >same outcome, only difference is you lost your power
            And this isn't even calculating the negative impact, economically and culturally, of constant rioting and antisocial behavior, as people question the legitimacy of the state.

            • 7 months ago
              Anonymous

              Fantastic, i'm stuck in a world where the economy works until people get mad and start asking for solutions based on emotions that nobody knows the effects, since the only incentive politicians have is to get votes.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                Welcome to Earth

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                I think i already knew that, and every single ideologue deep down knows that, but we keep hiding it due to the obsession of improving things.

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          True, but also running up debts and inflation makes the economy inefficient and reduces everyone's prosperity in the long run. It's a balancing act, like an engineer you look at both the advantages and disadvantages of different policies, the problem is in politics they only give one side of the story.

          It is that way by design, the government is a pile of shit and all your favorite politicians are like German scat fetishists who delight in taking a dip in the septic tank, Biden is literally the same as Trump, they are both psychopaths who view the American public as chattel. If they could they would turn the US into a self-destructive Slaaneshi orgy carefully designed so that the country only collapses shortly after their tenure is over and they don't have to deal with the consequences.

          It is up to the public to rein in politicians, they are not your friends just because they smile and tell you what you want to hear, they are your enemy.

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          >If you reduce the money supply, you WILL reduce inflation. The issue is that you will also reduce your economy to ruin
          Firstly, no one is proposing reducing it, they should just stop printing. Secondly, nonsense, the _efficient_ companies in the industries will survive and only wealth-destroying Leviathans which are being artificially sustained by robbing the wealth of the productive members of the society would go under. The economy would _improve_ after this purging.

          • 7 months ago
            Anonymous

            >The economy would _improve_ after this purging.
            I already know how this is going to end despite my pro-market beliefs, they're going to beg the government for bailouts sustained by investors and workers of the companies.

  5. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    They're both. They lie to cover up their stupidity. All their knowledge comes from regurgitating the shit they learned in school which was already outdated by like 20 years when they were there. Kinda like the idiot communists who think basing an economic government system on labor as the driving force, works in this day and age, when automation exists. Fucking retards.

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Thinks no automation existed in Marx's time

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Thinks no automation existed in Marx's time

      Automation, specifically factory killing craftmanship, is the entire thesis of Marx. Its the entire reason for his writing.
      Instead of having 1-2 carpenters in every settlement, being self employed and working for themselves, a factory drove them out of business and they were forced to go work at that factory. That's the whole point. Automation is the keystone holding it together.
      And the entirety of neo-Marxism is that in a market economy we are afraid, and dread the day when robots will take over jobs, how horrible, how will we live! When we should celebrate it, since we wouldn't have to do anything, and we'll all live in abundance without working. That's the contradiction.

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        This is true if you don't take into account people can reduce themselves in number or relocate themselves in new industries, which is what is happening right now despite immigration.

  6. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    economics is a religion. it should be obvious that the whole thing is a cargo cult. the economy does a thing and the economists throw somes bones and tell politicians what it means. they will gaslight you if you point how flimsy their subscriptions are. not even 6 months ago economists were calling people warning of inflation schizos. and now they have a laundry list of ideas? they have no idea what they're doing. the root of the issue i find is that economists fall prey to a fundamental flaw in our paradigm, that of rationalist materialism. the paradigm simply does not reflect reality. things go beyond a newtonian universe. we need to start acknowledging that. these cargo cults are doing a lot of harm to humanity's future. our society needs to reach the next step of evolution. a start would be to do a an autopsy on all these failings and ask 'why'? we need to evolve beyond a 19th century mode of organization. knowledge cannot be silo'd off from each other. economists' 'kick the can down the road' is just a balm for political circus. when was the last time an economist made a good decision for the economy? they are just 21st century court magicians

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        >When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all
        cargo cult

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        >The weather is nice and the harvest is good, because we haven't been sinning. The Gods made it so, due to our good behavior!

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      >when was the last time an economist made a good decision for the economy?
      Chilean economic wonder, when Pinochet invited a bunch of big headed Chicago boys to unfuck hic country.

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        >when Pinochet invited a bunch of big headed Chicago boys to unfuck hic country.
        meme

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          You are meme

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      >economics is a religion
      so, what, the law of supply and demand is a superstition like baal demanding human sacrifice?

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        basic stuff is obviously alright, but once they move beyond that it becomes more and more superstitious

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        Youd be surprised how many things boil down to magic rituals.
        Competence is a meme.
        Im a chemistry masters student in a well respected central european technical university.
        There is one reaction that only works with one specific magnetic stir bar.
        Oh they have theories as to why that is. But to prove them theyd have to destroy the bar.
        So they just keep doing it with the magic stirring bar.
        It could be complete coincidence. It’s unlikely but ultimately we dont know.
        Maybe slaughtering a goat would work too.
        Who knows at this point.
        And thats only one example

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          To reiterate: magic is not make belief.
          Magic is when you complete s ritual because you think, but dont know, itwill have a desired effect, and you cannot prove it but keep doing it anyway
          Its btw actually a very good system for stuff like herbal medicine and early farming.
          Just not for homogeneous catalysis or economic predictions…

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          >slaughtering a goat would work too
          Excellent!

  7. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    >stupid
    Not necessarily by birth, but selection of career is an indicator of greed and dishonesty. Also you are what you eat, economists listen to economists and want to believe -- therefore they believe the lies
    >liars
    Yes, it's their job
    >getting away
    They are worshipped court magicians as the other anons said, everyone wants to feel like someone's in control
    >not conveying clearly
    If you can't explain something to a 4-year-old, you don't inow the subject. Indication of bullshitting their way with magic words because they are not confident themselves
    >trick the public
    That's their job

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      Court magician is such a good analogy
      >captcha: NTR4Y

  8. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    There's always an economist to blow a lot of hot air while saying something obvious

    >The way to reduce prices is to make more stuff or to make people buy less

    No shit, what's next? "Only way to make a profit is to spend less money producing something than what you sell it for"?

  9. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    >Economists obfuscate simple things to trick the public into accepting political outcomes they prefer

    Economists treat their field as if it wasn't a social science and more akin to physics, chemistry or math, then they create models of human behaviour and apply the economic laws to these behaviours to see the outcome

    However, since they see themselves as physicists, they can't understand when the problem is their own models, not reality

    This makes their proposals to just make reality fit into the models, not the inverse

    That's why we see so many economist come up with idiotic or obvious statements as if they were revelations from the divine such as that one

  10. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    Why does this thread read like schizo posts?

  11. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    I want to finger her pink butthole so deep I tickle her next poo

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      Most insightful post in this thread.

  12. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    Ever since Zeitgeist released 20 years ago or whatever, and since Ron Paul ran for president talking about "fiat currency" and "the fed printing money", the understanding of inflation has gone extinct among the masses. Most people have no idea what they are talking about, and have no idea that they have no idea what they are talking about.
    And of course the latest fad is crypto currency, where you find a hyper inflated good, and hope it becomes hyper deflated, so that you can sell it before it hyper inflates again, and we call that "investment".

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      The whole "it's a piece of paper, it's arbitrary man" shit makes me want to punch a fucking hole through my screen.

  13. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    ITT: a bunch of normal people and one hilarious schizo

  14. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    There's a very simple solution to inflation. It's called deflation. We can't have that though because all the investments and assets the boomers have would lose all their value.

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      And you'd get your home and car repo'd. And you'd lose your job when the Starbucks closes.
      Your dad isn't the only entity in the country reliant on cheap debt to function.

  15. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    Well if they're smart, they're definitely liars. You'll never hear a mainstream economist argue against the sacred 'growth at all costs' axiom of our myopic economic paradigm.

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