Did God create from nothing or did he arrange preexisting matter?

Did God create from nothing or did he arrange preexisting matter?

  1. 2 weeks ago
    Dirk

    Ex nihilo

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Genesis 1 would beg to differ

      • 2 weeks ago
        Dirk

        How so

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

          The primordial waters were pre-existent with God. God formed the heavens and the earth from them.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Dirk

            You don't think the waters are themselves part of the earth which God created? Even looking just at this passage and not attempting to synthesize with John 1?

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >You don't think the waters are themselves part of the earth which God created?
              That's not what the text says. This was a common conception that the Bible shares with other Near Eastern texts about creation such as the Enuma Elish. The innovation of Genesis 1 on this tradition is not ex nihilo, but removing agency from the primordial waters and conflict between the creator god and the waters.

              >Even looking just at this passage and not attempting to synthesize with John 1?
              I'm not sure what John has to do with Genesis. They were made in two completely different time periods and had different conceptions of the world. My explanation isn't a theological explanation that tries to harmonize two completely different texts without good reason.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Dirk

                How do you know "now" in verse 2 is before creation, and not after creation has begun? It can go either way

                >This is a story about Joe in the war. Now Joe was 20 years old and 6 foot 2.
                Is "now" before or after Joe enters the war?

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                "now" is not in the hebrew. literally it says "and the earth was unformed and void"
                But that's mainly nitpicking. The verse in isolation is actually ambiguous, either reading is possible on a plain reading. However, because of context such as day two and Near Eastern tradition such as the Enuma Elish that influenced the development of Genesis 1, it's clear that verse 1 is not an act of creation that occurs before verse 2.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Dirk

                Wouldn't that context support what I'm saying? That the story there begins after the existence of the waters and so doesn't disagree with ex nihilo? Because it sounds like you're backpedaling

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Wouldn't that context support what I'm saying? That the story there begins after the existence of the waters and so doesn't disagree with ex nihilo?
                I don't think I understand your point. Day two shows that the heavens and the earth did not exist as independent entities right after verse one. This means that the primordial waters already existed before God speaks creation into being. It's pre-existent "stuff", or at the very least it simply just does not show God creating it.
                The Enuma Elish simlarly has the Heavens and the Earth created by the gods from the primordial waters, except that they are personified in the gods Apsu and Tiamat.

                I don't see how this supports your reading of ex nihilo

              • 2 weeks ago
                Dirk

                I'm not saying it teaches ex nihilo, I'm saying this is a story which either begins with the creation of the primordial waters or begins with the waters already in existence, either way not condemning ex nihilo. If John 1 or some other passage establishes ex nihilo and if we suppose a continuity between the stories then we're free to affirm it without conflict with Genesis 1

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                If the waters are already in existence, how does that not run directly contrary to ex nihilo? That would mean the world was not created from nothing, but formed from something that already existed. That's exactly the opposite of ex nihilo.

                > If John 1 or some other passage establishes ex nihilo and if we suppose a continuity between the stories then we're free to affirm it without conflict with Genesis 1
                That's fine if you want to harmonize them theologically, but if we're going to read the texts in their historical and cultural context John has no bearing on Genesis.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Dirk

                They're possibly created prior to this story

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                ok, but Genesis does not say that. It's just speculation on your part. Given the cultural context I laid out which undoubtably influenced Genesis 1, I'd say the waters being totally pre-existent is more favourable. I see no reason why Genesis would leave out that detail if the authors believed that to be the case.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Dirk

                I would say perhaps they left that part out because its not important to the purpose of the creation story, which is not really a scientific explanation and precise timeline but a narrative establishing Yahweh as sovereign and Adam as something like chief priest

                It sounds like you're willing to say gen 1 at least possibly allows for ex nihilo even though you don't think that's the more likely view of the author, traditionally Moses. That's fair

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >I would say perhaps they left that part out because its not important to the purpose of the creation story, which is not really a scientific explanation and precise timeline but a narrative establishing Yahweh as sovereign and Adam as something like chief priest
                broadly speaking, I agree. However, that rationale would actually give the authors reason to show God creating the primordial waters. The texts demonstrates his power by having him shape the world from the waters by his mere word, and without conflict like in contemporary foreign creation accounts. Wouldn't it show him as even more powerful and soveirgn over the world if it shows him not only shaping the world from the waters, but explicitly says he created the primordial waters?
                I don't see any reason to leave it out.

                Ultimately, either reading is possible, but I think mine is far more likely, and it follows Occam's razor, rather than adding an act of creation not found in the text.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Dirk

                I don't think your view is simpler than either of the other two. I take ex nihilo because it's philosophically preferable and I think it's found in John. I also take Paul's doctrine of inspiration.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            The act of creation in verse 1 obviously includes the creation of the waters mentioned in verse 2.

            Creation ex nihilo is also consistent with many other Bible passages:

            Isaiah 44:24: “I am the LORD, who made all things...“

            Ephesians 3:9: God who created all things;

            Colossians 1:16: for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities — all things were created through him and for him.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

        The primordial waters were pre-existent with God. God formed the heavens and the earth from them.

        Sounds like the heavens and earth precede the waters

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Read it closer, "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" is not an action that precedes God hovering over the waters, it's an introduction to what is to follow, a summary.
          This is clear because the heavens and the earth do not exist per se before day two, when God separates the primordial waters and calls one the earth and one the heavens:

          >6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second da

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      How?

  2. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    If god is a wizard with magic powers then those magic powers must have come from somewhere.

  3. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    He created Timothy and he got a boner when he created Timothy because he liked Timothys chest area.

  4. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Nothing in the Bible, Old or New Testaments indicates that Yahweh created anything ex nihilo.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Dirk

      “All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.” (John 1:3, NASB)

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >taking literally obvious metaphorical concepts like logos and such
        wow, excellent post. you sure need that tripcode for such posts. no wonder you spend all day every day posting every time the bible is mentioned just to say nothing, you know a lot!

        • 2 weeks ago
          Dirk

          Make an argument why the plain reading is deficient here

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            This is my premise.
            The conclusion is that you're a fucking idiot.
            It logically follows because this is a deductive argument, you're logically a fucking idiot.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Dirk

              hehe

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        John 1:3, is actually about things being crafted, not brought into being. More accurate translations render it so, nametard.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Dirk

          >More accurate
          Such as?

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            KJV

            • 2 weeks ago
              Dirk

              KJVA
              3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Yes, and? Thats exactly what I was saying. Nothing there talks about stuff being brought into being. Only stuff being crafted or "made". Yahweh did not "make" the waters. They were just there.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Dirk

                https://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/make

  5. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    There is a meta-universe with meta-rules where god comes from. He created the material universe with its logical rules.

  6. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Who made the preexisting matter?

  7. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Gravity electromagnetism and nuclear force arranged the matter. It wasn’t Jesus you cave dwelling dickheads

  8. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Satan creates. God destroys. Hail Satan.

  9. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    From nothing.

    But Genesis doesn't cover that, its not talking about the very beginning. It talks about his later arrangement of pre-existing matter.

  10. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Goddess created God from her egg. Matter and energy.

  11. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    In the beginning, there was nothing man would know of, but chaos all over the universe, god first separated infinite good, light and heat, from infinite evil, darkness, and cold, so he could see clearly what was before him, this then gave birth to the first man and his twin, god gave them bodies to separate them from both good and evil, then god created the first cattle in the image of man, so it could nourish them with its milk, when man and his twin reached adulthood, they wanted to organize the good and the evil, and agreed to sacrifice the first cattle, so from it, god and his siblings could create a world within the universe according to man, each cut of the cattle was turned into a different part of the world, and after this was done, finally god made celestial bodies to contain good and evil all over the universe so it would not destroy the order of the world of man, and so it begun.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Schizo

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        thanks

  12. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    So like, if God want to create something
    it just appears?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Goddess creates doofus. God is just her kid.

  13. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Why do y'all hate your mothers? For creating y'all? Ungrateful little rodents.

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