Could the mongols have taken Significant parts of Eastern Europe if the khan at the time Decided to focus on then.

Could the mongols have taken Significant parts of Eastern Europe if the khan at the time Decided to focus on then.

  1. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    Yeah, i think they would keep pushing into Eastern Europe until they got in conflict with central europe, after that they would prably slowdown a bit but enough for them to turn into the Holy Khanate of Christ

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      https://i.imgur.com/aNH28Sp.jpg

      Could the mongols have taken Significant parts of Eastern Europe if the khan at the time Decided to focus on then.

      No they cant
      Once europeans learned how to fight them, mongols got BTFO
      See second invasion of hungary

      Besides europeans castles, harsh terrain, ambushes and knights would have BTFO them

      >ibn4 legnica
      There was only 60 knights there and only one of them died

      European medieval armies were diverse, they werent only comprised of knights

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        The 2nd invasions of Poland and Hungary ARE the result of Mongols not giving a shit about Europe. The first invasion efforts were halted by successions issues that needed the attention of all the Khans so they went home for a kurultaj. By the time the second invasions happened the Mongol Empire was breaking up and you had peripheral Khans attacking Europe after failing to get a slice of the Asian pie.

        OP was talking of the time before that.

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          > The 2nd invasions of Poland and Hungary ARE the result of Mongols not giving a shit about Europe.

          They literally fielded a larger army the second time lol

          the cope to cope ratio of all is truly lemolie

          • 7 months ago
            Anonymous

            >They literally fielded a larger army the second time lol

            Irrelevant, the first invasion was stronger and competently led. The second invasion was done by the Golden Horde as the Unified Mong Empire now breaking up by this point. It's a Mongol successor state that only had Russia in its possession hence it felt the need to invade Europe. The poorest and the weakest of the 4 breakaway states (Golden Horde, Chaghatai Khanate, Il-Khan Dynasty Persia, Yuan Dynasty China).

            Its forces were also mostly made up mostly by Mongols. It didn't have access to skilled engineers like Khubilai's Yuan China or Hulagu's Persians. In fact its siege engineers were local Europeans (the Galicians and Slavs) lmao.

            • 7 months ago
              Anonymous

              > second time they also had a massive army
              > Irrelevant

              the level of cope broke the fucking ceiling

              > The second invasion was done by the Golden Horde

              that's not the point dumb fuck, the reply was about the notion of them not giving a shit about Europe, not that the Golden Horde was in any way comparable to the juggernaut that was the Mongol Empire united.

              Of course it wasn't the same.
              But the notion that they didn't care about conquering westwards anymore is retarded

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                Dude, the European Campaign by the Unified Empire was so fucking peripheral compared to their struggle with the likes of the Mamluks, it was already far away from the Silk Road. When the Kurultaj happened the commanders South simply sent representatives while the Khans in Europe all left.

                Only the Golden Horde wanted the area thanks to getting cucked by their rivals anywhere else.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                > Dude, the European Campaign by the Unified Empire was so fucking peripheral compared to their struggle with the likes of the Mamluks

                You utter pop history fuck,
                that is a meme and myth, stemmed from retards confusing the 1237 campaign with the earlier 1227 raid.

                The reality is that the army that invaded Europe is possibly the strongest fucking Mongol army ever assembled at one point.

                We are talking about fucking Batu and Subotai in the same fucking army.

                Fucking Berke, Shiban and the rest,

                we are talking about as much as 80 000 Mongol warriors with god knows how many auxiliaries.

                Whereas against Mamlukes they sent a few tumens led by literal whoswho fuckfaces,
                not even all the same dudes who led against the Abbadids and took Bagdad.

                It wasn't even fucking comparable

                Learn fucking history you wikipedia youtube watching cumstain.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                >invaded Europe is possibly the strongest fucking Mongol army ever assembled at one point.
                And they still couldn't even take the two Western built stone fortifications in Hungary lmao

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                Pop history thinks the Mongol Empire was still a thing when they tried a second time, sorry.

              • 7 months ago
                Anonymous

                >The reality is that the army that invaded Europe is possibly the strongest fucking Mongol army ever assembled at one point.
                nagger it was nowhere close to armies that invaded Quing, Song and Khwarezm, and this army was already tired up of subjucating Russian principalities, Kipchak steppe (take them few years), Volga Bulgaria (only after 5th invasion it was completely conquered). And half of the nobles with their forces already left Batu's army.
                >we are talking about as much as 80 000 Mongol warriors with god knows how many auxiliaries.
                At very beggining of the Kipchak campaign they had 30-40k.
                Batu army: 1k siege engineers
                Hulagu army: 6k siege engineers

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        >There was only 60 knights there and only one of them died
        Untrue, only one Teutonic Knight died. Teutonic Knights just did not consider Slavs to be human, even when they were Catholic.

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          In your incel fantasy

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        That is the point of this what if scenario tho, or at least as far as OP detailed, if the mongols focused on Eastern Europe instead of China or if they never withdrew from the first invasion or if the never waited for a 40 years to come back, the results of the second invasions are only relevant for a comparison with central and west europe, the mongols were absolutely dominiating Eastern Europe until they decided to fuck off. I dont see why they wouldnt be able to keep most of Eastern Europe in this "what if"

        >europeans castles
        Only valid point but not much relevant to Eastern Europe

        >harsh terrain
        Low IQ and meme point
        >ambushes
        Low IQ and meme point

        >knights would have BTFO them
        Again really relevant unless we change the topic to central and west europe. And they probably would end up christianized and became no diferent from the other european states, fielding either their own equaly equiped knights or from any other vassal/alied states that would have sought them for political support in against other christian states, so basicaly a Hungary 2: electric boogaloo

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        >second invasion of hungary
        >if the khan at the time Decided to focus on then.
        Lol LMAO
        Medieval Europe literally had nothing to put against Mongols because the entire idea of united and organised army was alien for European military doctrine, which still was within "feudal bands and militia" paradigm (and it will reamin the same later at Nicopolis and Varna)
        Fun fact, but Golden Horde (Jochi Ulus) launched a huge slave trade because trasuries they gain in Russian principalities, Hungary, Poland, Czechia, Serbia and Bulgary was too low by mongolian standarts (comparing to what they got in China and Khwarezm)

  2. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    Yeah they could have buck broken Europe the Huns already did it before

  3. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    They couldn't even take Eastern Europe irl so no.

    There's also the fact that they were unable to take Western fortifications, unlike Hungary and Poland. Western Europe did have far larger and far stronger fortifications. Tellingly, the two fortifications built in a Western European style in Hungary were never taken by the Mongols when they overran their country. Neither were Mongol tactics even new to Western Europe. The Crusaders had to deal with that kind of fighting for well over 100 years and they well understood how to fight nomadic armies, this knowledge was transmitted to the West, and even new Crusading armies which have never been East took up precautions used against the nomadic Turks.

  4. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    Absolutely.

    If they could have taken China, which was 10x harder to crack than all of Europe, then they could have easily taken Eastern Europe. But it's a question of why would they? Europe was relatively poor compared to most of Asia and the initial Mongol invasion had pushed the Mongols to the limits of their logistical capabilities, hence the withdrawal after achieving few gains.

  5. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    Not enough grassland to feed their horses. So they would have to change their army composition and tactics. Also by the 2nd invasion the golden horde had lost access to Persian and Chinese siege engineers. But, to answer the question, who the fuck knows

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      >So they would have to change their army composition and tactics.
      Or just attack at winter when most of the food gathered within the settlements

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        And then face attrition besieging castles? Or bypass the castles and have to deal with enemies behind you? One lost battle and they could've been scattered and ran down by the garrisons.

  6. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    There's arguments that the mongols in europe did not actually know about the succession when they retreated. That said, they weren't a large force and were legitimately getting worn down. How it would go if the mongols actually came in force is another matter.

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      >How it would go if the mongols actually came in force is another matter.
      That's the reason made this thread in the first place, it's to make people think of what it would look like if the Mongols actually focused on conquering Europe.

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        Yeah, just pointing that out.
        I think they would have struggled past poland and hungary. The dense and numerous fortifications are a substantial obstacle. Where the mongols captured fortresses quickly in the east, they were mostly either earth and wood (reducible by their siege engines) not stone. Mongol siegecraft was always inferior to western one, and europeans weren't able to quickly take european fortresses either. It's not a matter of numbers either. If you storm a castle, you will take heavy casualties corresponding to the number of defenders - and europeans were more numerous in total than the mongols, and in sieges the civilians can fight as well. They would have bled out trying to take them all.
        If they raid and besiege on the other hand, it depends on proper preparation of the defenders. If they hole up food in the castles and burn the rest, at best scorch the rest of the place as well, the mongols have nothing to eat. Their vast herds have little to eat either way, so that's extra bad. This all adds up to a lot of attrittion and slow gains.
        Where it becomes interesting is if local lords decide to surrender and throw in their lot with the mongols instead. This happened a lot in china and central asia. However the culture in europe is a lot less conducive to that, and this is the height of the crusades were talking of. Collaboration with the heathens against fellow christians would have weighed heavily on any lords and soldiers conscience - I wouldn't be surprised if the lord about to go over would have been murdered by some underling. But it's obviously impossible to tell for certain.

  7. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    >if the khan at the time Decided to focus on then.
    Lol easily. If they gathered simmiliar kurultaj like they did after Genghis Khan death
    Especially if they called to thei european allies

  8. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    It took 80 years for the Mongols to bring down the Song dynasty, which had far less massive and small stone fortifications than Western Europe. So unless you give the Mongols a literal century to wrangle with Western Europe, which was more mobilized than China, and gave them the same concentration of power, with the ability to cater to a large cavalry force (which Western Europe didn't have, the nearest being Hungary, which was tiny compared to Mongolia and Northern China). There was no way in hell they were going to do it.

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      >It took 80 years for the Mongols to bring down the Song dynasty, which had far less massive and small stone fortifications than Western Europe.

      Lmao almost every Chinese city had city walls (the Chinese word for city- Cheng- means "walled off settlement") and was more mobilized than Europe considering how the late Song fucking recruited for the war. It only took 80 years thanks to the traditional Mongol armies failing to conquer the more fortified and mountainous South until they finally figured out Chinese siege warfare & Naval warfare by the time Khubilai declared his Yuan Dynasty and likewise mobilized all of Northern China after giving up trying to reunite his grandpa's empire after the Toluid Civil War.

      Mongs simply won't succeed in Europe a second time because 1) their empire had crumbled and 2) the Golden Horde- the Mongs who were the ones interested with Europe- didn't have skilled engineers anymore, pure and simple.

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        >Lmao almost every Chinese city had city walls
        And so did nearly every city in Western Europe? Missing the point of every other fortification in Western Europe as well, even the Mongols first incursion into Europe failed to take the Western stone fortifications in Hungary when they had free reign in the country. Fortifications were more numerous, literally spotting every part of the countryside.
        >and was more mobilized than Europe considering how the late Song fucking recruited for the war.
        I won't deny that the Late Song were highly mobilized and monetized but by this time the latter was the norm in all of Western Europe besides Scandinavia and mobilization was still extremely high. Obviously not as high as the Mongols, or any nomadic people since only Republican Central Italy could match that for a sedentary people but it was still high, especially compared to places like the (native) Middle East. England for example had decrees allowing the mobilization of the majority of the able male population when Parliament deemed that the country could be under foreign invasion. Germany was stuck in an eternal small war within its borders precipitating high mobilization.
        >the Mongs who were the ones interested with Europe- didn't have skilled engineers anymore, pure and simple.
        They would also have to travel over 100 kilometres from the nearest large pasture in Hungary to even get into Western Europe with no hope of any similar pasture in the entire region. The Mongol armies simply could not exist deep in Western Europe in any meaningful way.

  9. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    >Mongols failed to conquer Central Europe
    What the fuck are they teaching you retards in school?

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      Hero of the Soviet Union
      100% Russian

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      they did that with the help of the chechens, turks a Ossetians

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