Would Poland have been better off if it were Orthodox?

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    • #102667
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Would Poland have been better off if it were Orthodox?

    • #102669
      Anonymous
      Guest

      No. It would have been Bashkortostan tier

    • #102670
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Hell no.
      Catholics are certainly no Protestants when it comes to work ethic, but unlike orthodox, they are nowhere near as corrupt.

      • #102673
        Anonymous
        Guest

        I don’t understand what is being said here, after reading this post 4x.

        • #102674
          Dirk
          Guest

          >Catholics are nowhere near as corrupt as orthodox. They also do not have the protestant work ethic
          My take

      • #102695
        Anonymous
        Guest

        Protestant work ethic doesnt exist. When people say this they just mean capitalism unknowingly or not.

        • #102697
          Anonymous
          Guest

          Oh yeah? Well explain this then Mr.
          This is where dwelling in non-protestant darkness gets you

          • #102858
            Anonymous
            Guest

            Work in preindustrial times usually meant back breaking labour that killed you at 50, not dancing naked to your viewers on webcam shows for a fortune.

      • #102702
        Svetovid
        Guest

        The Western world is the most corrupt part of the globe.

    • #102671
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Polackland would have been a shithole no matter what sort of cult they followed there.

    • #102672
      Dirk
      Guest

      What if Poland joined the moravian church

    • #102675
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Catholic slavs are cringe

    • #102676
      Anonymous
      Guest

      No

    • #102677
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Yes because Balkanic countries aren’t shit holes, amirite?

    • #102698
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Far worse, it would be significantly more isolated from the west and the Byzantines were a far worse influence than the Latins.

      • #102712
        Anonymous
        Guest

        I don’t think that’s true

        • #102713
          Anonymous
          Guest

          How is that not true? How would the Byzantines possibly be a better influence on the Poles than the Roman Catholics – in terms of a successful, functional society. All we can look at for Byzantine-influenced societies are the Rus, Bulgarians, and Serbians, who have objectively fared far worse.

          • #102715
            Svetovid
            Guest

            1. Serbia was quite literally bombed to the Stone Age several times over in the 20th century, whereas Bulgaria was absolutely raped by post-war restitution, and both endured a turbulent, sapping Ottoman subjugation, that has nothing to do with the ERE.

            2. While we’re at it, both Bulgaria and Serbia founded the earliest Slavic empires, and were the preeminent Slavic powers during the better part of the Middle Ages, Poland and Russia would supersede them only after their fall to the Ottoman Empire, there’s more to history than the Yugoslav wars, Redditor.

            • #102721
              Anonymous
              Guest

              I’m talking about medieval Europe baby boy…

          • #102717
            Anonymous
            Guest
            • #102718
              Anonymous
              Guest

              I’m talking about the pre-Ottoman Balkans and the pre-Mongol Kievan Rus.

              • #102719
                Svetovid
                Guest

                So you’re talking about the period when Serbia was the Serbian Empire, and when Bulgaria was the SECOND Bulgarian Empire? Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t Poland just a mere kingdom at that time?

                And as I recall, both Serbia and Bulgaria were exporting their influence abroad, economically and culturally.

                • #102720
                  Anonymous
                  Guest

                  Unless you are some Serbian/Bulgarian nationalist, I cannot understand how you could come to the conclusion that either were on the same level to the west. The extent of their influence abroad primarily contained to their immediate (Orthodox) neighbors, including meddling in Byzantine affairs. The title of "empire" vs "kingdom" is irrelevant, what is relevant is the quality and state of their societies. Empty titles do not give any indication on that.

                  Also, if Poland was Orthodox, it would just be another insular Orthodox society like the Kievan Rus, devoid of the same benefits which Bulgaria/Serbia obtained from their proximity to the Byzantine Empire. Following the model of the Kievan Rus, it is likely that Poland would have been a backwards proto-feudal society, deprived of Roman influences and with a significantly weaker Christianization/clerical presence.

                  • #102726
                    Svetovid
                    Guest

                    >unless you’re "X nationality"
                    Accusing me of harboring nationalist delusions is a giveaway that your own thinking patterns are defined by such phenomena, which you’ve expressed clearly.

                    >The extent of their influence abroad primarily contained to their immediate neighbors
                    The furthest extent of both Serbia’s and Bulgaria’s influence was Muscovy, Wallachia, and Moldavia, not including the non-Orthodox states like Bosnia, Croatian Dalmatia, Dubrovnik, and southern Hungary, and prior to the age of Discovery, all European empires were limited to their immediate neighbors, therefore a moot point, and by the time both empires were formed, the ERE was no longer strong enough to compete with them and was consistently losing ground, politically, culturally, and territorially, to the point where emperor Dusan was just five days away from besieging and seizing Constantinople, which is why the Greek priesthood had him poisoned to prevent it, this is not interfering with one’s affairs, but threatening their very existence. During its 40-years of existence, the Serbian Empire was among the most powerful and one of the largest states in Late Medieval Europe, whereas Piast Poland was, at best, only a sovereign nation, and was never strong enough to challenge the Holy Roman Empire, a state vastly more decentralized and less efficient than the ERE (Yet still superior to Poland), Serbia, or any of the Bulgarian Empires ever were, even though they were an immediate repository of Latin/Catholic teachings. During the existence of said states, and even during the existence of the Despotate of Serbia, the only state in the West that came close in quality and state of society was Medieval France, and titles are, in fact, important, because they’re an expression of the state’s power and prestige. On top of that, both Serbia and Bulgaria were among the major centers of literacy and spirituality in Europe, whereas Poland was but a recipient of foreign influence. (1/2).

                    • #102728
                      Anonymous
                      Guest

                      Yes I mentioned that the Serbians, as a society which mimicked the Byzantines, got involved in their politics. The Serbian Empire claimed to be essentially a new Byzantine Empire. The Serbians and Bulgarians copied foreign culture more so than the Poles, as they become far more Hellenic than however Latin/German Poland ever became. Also the Byzantines were constantly mogging the Serbians/Bulgarians lel. Empty titles aren’t important, the Serbians/Bulgarians adopted the same imperial presuppositions as the Byzantines, but that didn’t translate to tangible power.

                      >muh centers of literacy
                      >muh centers of spirituality

                      Like… virtually everyone semi-relevant?

                      • #102759
                        Svetovid
                        Guest

                        What you did is the following, you moved goalposts in some vain hope of damage-control because you’ve realized how disastrously shit your argument’s premise is, and the only thing Serbian and Bulgarian states emulated from the ERE is the title of emperor.

                        >The Serbian Empire claimed to be essentially a new Byzantine Empire
                        No, the Serbian emperor claimed to be the emperor of Serbs, Greeks, and Albanians, and it was never the "Byzantine" empire, but the ERE, or specifically, the ROMAN Empire.

                        >as they become far more Hellenic
                        Categorically false, thanks to the development of literary Serbian and Bulgarian tongues and writing systems, and their own seats of imperial and spiritual power, both developed as separate, Slavic Orthodox medieval states. Matter of fact, the First Bulgarian Empire was founded on the basis of Slavic culture, literacy, and Eastern Christianity, and to prevent Hellenization, Old Church Slavonic was invented at Boris’ and Simeon’s request (both patrons of Slavic culture), whereas in Poland, all the leading institutions of power, and even noble titles, with the exception of "Pan" and "Krol", were of German origin. Your grasp of history is laughable.

                        >Byzantines were constantly mogging the Serbians/Bulgarians
                        Since the 11th century, the Romans, not the Byzantines, were suffering consecutive defeats against both, even post-Velbazd Bulgaria defeated a superior Roman army while suffering minimal losses.

                        >didn’t translate to tangible power
                        They bore the title, and none dared to challenge them, that is, unfortunately for you, supreme power, and while we’re on the matter, during the last few Roman civil wars, the Bulgarians and Serbs, and the Ottomans, were using the rival factions as peons in their own expansions, so moot point.

                        >virtually everyone semi-relevant
                        The only equivalents in Europe back then were Rome itself and France, so yes, the other relevant entities. Remember, you chose to die on this hill, WASPie.

                • #102722
                  Anonymous
                  Guest

                  Also, it is worth mentioning that it was the Catholicism of Poland which preserved it at all. The prospect of an Orthodox Poland surrounded by the HRE, Hungary, the myriad of Rus principalities, and Baltic tribal apes is horrible. They would just become bulldozed by Germans, becoming subordinate to them and gradually assimilated, just like their western Slavic kin.

                  >aha but what if the kievan princes who were constantly fighting each other and nomads (and who fought with the polish and would still fight them, orthodox or not) amassed a doom stack and crushed the forces of the HRE and hungary!

                  • #102747
                    Svetovid
                    Guest

                    You moved the goalpost at least half a dozen times in just a span of several statements, talk about a weak argument. During the entirety of the Middle Ages, Piast Poland, barring the period of the reign of Casimir the Great, was a recipient, not an exporter of influence, specifically of Germano-Latin influence, whereas Serbia and Bulgaria began rapidly exporting their own influence the moment they’ve developed their own patriarchates and literary languages, and that’s centuries before the aforementioned timeline. Your original point was that Poland was objectively better off than Bulgaria and Serbia because of Catholicism, and when that was proven to be false, you’ve gone on about hypotheticals of Orthodox Poland being surrounded and defeated, as if Bulgaria and Serbia weren’t surrounded by neighbors of far superior caliber than the Germans, Baltoids and the Danes, like the Hungarians, Venetians, the Golden Horde, and the ERE? Barring France, the rest of Western Europe was categorically behind Southeastern Europe for the better part of the Middle Ages. Your entire knowledge of Serbia and Bulgaria stems from /poo/ and Wikipedia, and even that is questionable since you’re POV is anachronistic. Since we both know you’re gonna pull the MY ECONOMY AND SHIT, you should know that Serbia was the largest producer and manufacturer of silver in Europe throughout the 14th and early 15th centuries, and even in its twilight, boasted a state-owned printing house (Crnojevic), with a printing quality which surpassed that of Gutenberg’s, or any other, for that matter, and yet again, in Serbian, not Greek and Latin. Bulgaria had several Early Medieval literary schools the size of early Medieval universities, when did Poland boast any of this?

                • #102799
                  Anonymous
                  Guest

                  Imagine being proud of being an empire that is the same size as a Kingdom.

                  • #102813
                    Svetovid
                    Guest

                    Size of several kingdoms*, and I prefer having the history of having an empire than the opposite.

          • #102727
            Anonymous
            Guest

            Serbs and Bulgars wernt "inferior" to Poles in the medieval ages as far as I know. Even the Serbian Despotate that was turned into a war zone for decades until its collapse was considered extremely rich for its size (novo brdo mines made up a substantial amount of europes silver) with formidable knights. It wasn’t until Ottoman conquest and when the Christians because a sort of peasentry class that the balkans because a backwater.

            • #102729
              Anonymous
              Guest

              The Byzantines were a worse influence and, taking that aside, an Orthodox Poland would be doomed from the start; furthermore, the point of this thread is to discuss how an Orthodox Poland would fare.

              • #102793
                Anonymous
                Guest

                Yeah wtf is all this Balkan shit I made this thread to discuss Poland

    • #102760
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Maybe. Being Orthodox would bring them into the Russian field of influence, which historically was better than German influence. It would also curb German influence much earlier on (prussia would basically be under constant threat of polish/russian expansionism).
      Who knows, we could have never had Napoleon, and the Ancien Regime would slowly mold into constitutionalism? We could only hope.

      On the other side, it’s important to understand that RCC was the natural choice for Poland. Unlike russia/serbia/bulgaria, Poland actually a "western-style" development cycle with feudalism -> kingdom. This would probably classify Poland as the most eastern European nation in terms of national history/culture development. It’s also the reason why polish culture is so much more liberal than russian or serbian cultures.

      One interesting option is exploring the Kurland scenario but for Poland. Integrating Polish elites into Russian service like the way that the (catholic/lutheran!!!) Kurland nobility was integrated into Russian upper class would be very great for both parties imo if it actually worked.

      • #102771
        Svetovid
        Guest

        Given the sheer number of royal marriages between Piasts and Rurikids, they would’ve sooner merged into a massive state ruled by a Piast-Rurikid dynasty, and barring Orthodoxy, Serbia and Bulgaria were almost like Hungary in outward looks and setting. Matter of fact, barring the rule of that one particular Hungarian king with subversive policies towards SE Europe (granted, he was a Westerner), Serbia and Bulgaria had admirably positive relations with Hungary.

    • #102795
      Anonymous
      Guest

      >starts thread about orthodox poland
      >it devolves into schizo rants about serbia
      What is wrong with you people?

    • #102797
      Anonymous
      Guest

      >would Satanic pagan Mary worshipers with a pope be better off if they were Satanic pagan Mary worshipers without a pope
      Yes, at least by that much.

      • #102839
        Anonymous
        Guest

        neo-gnostic cultist says what?

        • #102842
          Anonymous
          Guest

          Wrong, you are obviously ignorant of the Isaiah code which internally proves the 66 books with Malachi being specifically 39, Matthew 40, and Revelation 66. Too bad that your dung heap of "Tradition™" with it’s one and only monopoly on the "Fullness of Truth™" let (You) down. God is the primary partner in the authoring of Scripture and determiner of canon, not men, atheist.

          • #102843
            Anonymous
            Guest

            Not wrong, you have no idea what you’re talking about. There is no "Isaiah code", schizo.
            You are part of a man-made cult. Your cult has zero connection, none whatsoever, to the original ministry of Christ. You can never escape from this indisputable fact.

            • #102844
              Anonymous
              Guest

              >I don’t know it so it doesn’t exist even though it is absolutely real and astounding
              Enjoy worshiping your cult, Mary, alleged saints, and yourself instead of Christ.

              • #102845
                Anonymous
                Guest

                >You are part of a man-made cult. Your cult has zero connection, none whatsoever, to the original ministry of Christ. You can never escape from this indisputable fact.
                Stop larping as a Christian.

                • #102846
                  Anonymous
                  Guest

                  I am rubber and (Thou) art glue, it bounces off of me and sticks unto thine self.

                  • #102855
                    Anonymous
                    Guest

                    >dude Jesus’s apostles immediately failed and then the Church randomly re-appeared in western Europe 1500 years later
                    >also the Orthodox are a bunch of demon-worshiping pagans but we still use the scripture they compiled and consider it infallible
                    derp

                    • #102860
                      Anonymous
                      Guest

                      Paul:
                      >For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
                      Peter:
                      >But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
                      Examine your feelings of smugness and remember that by the time of Jesus the Pharisees felt exactly as (You) do with their faith in "Tradition™" that was outside of the Hebrew Scriptures and contrary to the actual living God. "Leaders" in the post Apostolic church were duped, you’ve been duped. Wrongness doesn’t turn into rightness no matter how many thousands of years it is maintained.

                    • #102864
                      Anonymous
                      Guest

                      >randomly
                      Also, there were obvious forces at work, it wasn’t "random". The Scriptures were beginning to be accessed by those outside of a very small, mob like cabal, who in fact killed many people in the attempt to stop that from occurring, knowing full well that reading the Scriptures directly would quickly expose their house of lies.

    • #102822
      Svetovid
      Guest

      […]

      South Slavs have no Turkish DNA, whereas Slovenes are heavily Germanized, effeminate maggots, therefore everything but Slavs.

    • #102824
      Anonymous
      Guest

      sfatovid.jpg

      • #102841
        Svetovid
        Guest

        Bankstown, Fairfield, Blacktown, Bull’s address.

    • #102830
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Of course.

    • #102863
      Anonymous
      Guest

      […]

      W*stoid mad lmao.

    • #102882
      Anonymous
      Guest

      …I just wanted to talk about Orthodox stuff in Poland…

      • #102883
        Anonymous
        Guest

        Actual question. About John Paul and how his papacy affected Poland as well relations with the other churches during the cold war

    • #102884
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Not gonna read this thread yet, let’s make some bets for thread composition:

      > 30% ironic sectarian flamewars
      > 20-25% exchanges of kraut-polack insults
      > 5% haploautism
      > the rest actual historical discussion

      Placed ‘em, let’s see it now…

    • #102885
      Anonymous
      Guest

      The Baltic crusade wouldn’t have circumvented them then. Germans would’ve steamrolled the Poles just as they had the pommeranians before them and there would’ve been no need for some Austrian art school reject to nitch about lebensraum hundreds of years after.

      • #102894
        Svetovid
        Guest

        It took Germans (wasn’t just them, but Danes, Poles, and even Norwegians) several hundred years to reverse Slavic conquest and colonization of Eastern Germany, that’s the opposite of steamrolling, and Poland has developed a tradition of defeating German invasions throughout the Early and High Middle Ages.

        • #102897
          Anonymous
          Guest

          Everyone knows you are a bitch mod or suck a bitch mod now

      • #102896
        Anonymous
        Guest

        It is Catholicism in Poland which provided a peaceful outlet for the ever-present German urge for colonialism. The Poles allowed the Germans to migrate into their lands, if they were Orthodox, they would simply be conquered.

    • #102895
      Anonymous
      Guest

      >Would literally any country be better off if it were more sl*vic
      Absolutely not.

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