- This topic has 59 replies, 1 voice, and was last updated 7 months, 4 weeks ago by
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Why didn’t he force Serbs to accept the ultimatum? What was so hard about it?
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>AU police conducts investigation
>all ties lead to the highest echelons of the serb military
>still leads to war
>serbia can’t play the victim anymoreReal question is why Russia thought it was a good idea to stand up for Serbia in 1914 instead of for Bulgaria in 1913.
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>instead of for Bulgaria in 1913.
Bratushki… say why should Russia support country that betrayed it every time?-
Geopolitical interests? They had nothing to win with Serbia on the other hand.
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So they were going to step in and save Bulgaria from 4 invading armies for geopolitical autism despite the fact Bulgars wanted Tsargrad?
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Obviously there would be a price to pay for the help.
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I see, but in that case Russia already had Serbia and Montenegro as effective proxys fighting for them, and the Bulgarians foreign policy already pissed the Russians off. Russia supporting Bulgaria suddenly would see out of character and alienate the rest of the balkans. Idk dosent really seem worth it unless they managed to get Tsargrad out of it.
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Tsargrad was obviously the objective. Bulgaria could ‘have’ if they were turned into a satellite state.
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Serbs would have told him to shove it and then he would have to invade the Central powers (minus Italy) anyway because there’s no way he would allow the Austrians to expand in the Balkans.
that would mean declaring war on Serbia, Greece, Romania, etc all potential client states Russia wanted improve relations with not to mention it would drag Austria-Hungary and therefore the rest of Europe into the war. Bulgaria might want to have good relations with Russia again, but that’s a heavy price to pay and at that point it seemed like Russia would have been happier to invade Bulgaria than defend it.
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>there’s no way he would allow the Austrians to expand in the Balkans.
What’s so special about that area? There is no resources there, no industry, no economy, no trade, no educated class.
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It was poor but it was the key to taking Tsargrad and accessing the Mediterranean.
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Panslavism
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>Serbs to accept goddamn ultimata?
Sebs accepted all but one point. That shows how little germans cared about peace and it was all just excuse for war-
Furthermore the Serbian government at the time (1903-1914) was overwhelmingly pro-Russian, while the government before it (1858-1903) was pro-Austrian, hell, Austria even support Serbia’s aggressive attack on Bulgaria in 1885 and even threatened Bulgaria with war if they didn’t stop btfo’ing Serbia.
No matter what happened, no matter what Serbia did, it would have lead to war anyway. Austria had been hostile to Serbia since 1903 and would have continued it’s hostility until the pro-Russian government was crushed. It was never about assassination or terrorism, it was imperialist autism.-
>Austria had been hostile to Serbia since 1903
Why do you think they became hostile?
Serbia had grabbed all the land it could off of Bulgaria and had been blocked from annexing Albania by France. The only direction they had to expand was West and they wanted war.
Austria did not want to expand in to Serbia.-
>Austria did not want to expand in to Serbia.
Completely and utterly wrong-
Completely and utterly true.
They planned on gifting Serb land to Bulgaria and Albania, hardly taking any for themselves in case of war. All Austria wanted was peace and stability. Serbia was the hostile, expansionist power.-
Ok this is some serious autism lol I get you dont like Serbs but acting like Austria is le good peaceful boy, just lol
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This really they brought most of it on themselves. Them and those freaking Magyars cunts.
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They were antagonistic against a hostile country that had ambitions on their territory and was actively trying to provoke a war.
Who wouldn’t be?
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>Ignores Austrias role in stopping southern serb expansion in albania
ok your baiting
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That’s false.
>It is a tribute to its quality that even a hundred years later authoritative accounts of the July crisis refer to the Serbs accepting ‘all but one point of the Austrian ultimatum’.50 But a careful perusal of the Serbian reply shows it did no such thing. It rejected outright point 6. It only partially accepted points 1, 2 and 3 and offered a wholly unsatisfactory if not downright dishonest reply to point 8. It was evasive on points 4, 5 and 9. Yet all this was clothed in such conciliatory language, it fooled many a diplomat.
The promise of Russian military support in the worst-case scenario enabled the Serbs to reply in the manner they did, a manner in which they avoided admitting to any wrongdoing and largely dismissed the Austrian demands.
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If Serbia didn’t want a war their government and military wouldn’t be assassinating foreign leaders
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That one point was the only one that really mattered. The Servs wanted to investigate themselves with no oversite.
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ie cover it up
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ultimatium was unacceptable. Prepared to be declined
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Have you ever tried talking with a Serb?
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The serbs accepted 7 of the 10 ultimatums and said they were open to negotiation for the last three. Kaiser Wilhelm and Nikolai thought there’d be no war until Austria Hungary jumped the gun and invaded.
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Do you know what an ultimatum is? It’s not a call to negotiate.
Look at what the demands were too. For Serbia to close down newspapers that were openly warmongering. Wow! What injustice! How dare Austria!
They murdered Franz Ferdinand because they wanted war and that’s what they got.-
They agreed to shutting down the papers big brain. They just didn’t agree to the last 3 concessions because they’d be near impossible the accomplish without outside intervention.
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They never intended on following any of the demands. By claiming to only refuse one of them they were stalling and trying to come out as the good guy. A numbnuts like you actually fall for it.
Serbia was a full blown warmongering, terrorist funding little bandit country and 100 years later people still try to whitewash them because they were on the side of the allies.
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Thats why Austria and Germany foiled all diplomatic efforts from the allies that would of solved it
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Diplomatic efforts get Serbia off the hook when it had established itself as a clear and vicious security threat to Austria and had set an absolutely unacceptable precedent of the kind that other country would’ve accepted.
Ok.-
If the assassination of a dead-end line of inheritance by Serbs is evidence of a "clear and vicious security threat" to the Austrians, then Russians were a clear and vicious security threat to the Russian Empire. And that’s not even considering that every major power at the time save France was a monarchy, and none wanted to set the precedent of saying "regicide is ok".
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What point are you trying to make?
No country would be okay with a neighboring one organizing terrorism against them. But the Austrian should’ve been?-
My point is that there would be no diplomatic efforts to get Serbia "off the hook". It was far from the first time somebody in line for a throne had been assassinated, it was nothing new in Europe. But nobody, absolutely freaking nobody, wanted to make regicide ok. There is no conceivable way Serbia would get off scot-free. The rest of Europe wanted to prevent a disastrous war over a diplomatic incident that really didn’t require a war declaration. Austrian autism ensured that war would occur, and German autism ensured that it would involve all of Europe instead of staying contained to just the Balkans.
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Yeah, there was going to be a war. There was a legitimate casus belli and tensions had reached a boiling point. Once the war was finished Russia and France could’ve applied pressure on Austria to give Serbia an easy peace (which would’ve been super easy). Instead Russia chose to give full military support for Serbia and to mobilize.
No one had to stick their necks out for Serbia and escalate the situation, but they chose to do so. -
>just abandon your ally let them fight an overwhelmingly stronger foe whos consistently been hostile towards you and them for a decade
sounds pretty cuck to me
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>having a dead weight ally that keeps dragging you into wars and gives nothing back
It’s almost like Serbia was to Russia what Israel is to America. -
Russians wernt in position for great allies after getting bonked by japs, pissing off bulgars, and consistently getting diplomatically cucked by austria and germany
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Russia’s humiliating defeat to Japan and lackluster response to the outcome of the Austrian annexation of Bosnia ensured that Russia could not back down in a subsequent crisis. To do so would mean the destruction of Russian influence in the Balkans, the only real region where Russia could exert its influence in full as a result of its negotiation with Great Britain and settlement with Japan concerning separate swathes of Asia, with the nations’ satellites losing faith in the country and Austrian influence being allowed to flourish in turn. The same Pan-Slavic that turned Austria’s annexation of Bosnia into the crisis it was would also have been enraged at Russia abandoning Serbia to Austrian domination, whether that domination came about as a result of diplomacy or warfare.
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He should have just pulled a cold war and made the Serbian war a Vietnam for AH.
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That doesn’t work when the people planing to invade most likely on just annexing Serbia after the war like they did with Bosnia.
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That wouldn’t have worked in that era. The only way vietnamese style wars work is if the attacker doesn’t want to destroy economy / doesn’t annihilate opposition.
Austria Hungary was fully prepared to lose battalions of men and to destroy most if not all of Serbia. Which they basically did.
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>Causes Germany and AH to fight two front war in europe
>Causes Germany to activate Ottoman empire into declaring war on russia
>Unlike previous century, British and French allow their allie Russia to retake ConstantinopleIt could have been the greatest power move ever, but for Lenin
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Russia was collapsing anyway my mans, regardless of the communists
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Austria-Hungary wanted a war with Serbia. Why are there so many of these "dude just let another country fuck up you or your ally" threads lately? This board really is filled with edgelords with no backbone.
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People who berate Serbia for rejecting three ultimatums that would cause them to forfeit their government are either tone deaf or unfamiliar with Austrian Hungarian aggression.
Serves Austria Hungary right though. They lost their empire, had nearly no capitol gain from the conflict, and modernized their army last.
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This. In the decade leading up to the July Crisis of 1914, there had been plenty of diplomatic incidents that could have touched off a major European war. Agadir, Severn, Fashoda, the list goes on. In every one of these incidents, cooler heads prevailed and the respective governments spent months smoothing things over with neutral intermediaries. The July Crisis was the exception. The Austro-Hungarian Empire, emboldened by Germany’s blank check and determined to get their short victorious war, used an ultimatum designed from the outset to be unacceptable to another sovereign nation as a casus belli in order to get their war before the diplomatic process could work things out. The end result was a disaster for humanity and Europe.
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>The end result was a disaster for humanity and Europe.
because of Russian involvementclearly the AH authorities needed a win due to the loss of the crown prince, his assassin was supported by key members of the Serbian government
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It takes two to tango. Serbia wasn’t exactly a dove either.
>Serves Austria Hungary right though.
Serves Serbia right too. They lost a quarter of their population and established a completely unsustainable empire where the different ethnicities hated each other more than under Habsburg rule.
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he was already walking on thin ice and refusing to appease the pan-slavic autism of the upper classes would not help his popularity
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Because Serbia obviously did order the archduke’s assassination and the Austro-Hungarian police would have found out about it.
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He’s has autism, pls be patient with him
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Despite the demands being unreasonable most of them were accepted, and the Germanoid warmongers still declared war. If Serbia accepted any more of the Austrian demands Serbia wouldnt be anything more than a Austrian satellite
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Read through their actual reply if you can, it’s so vague and full of bullshit you will probably start skimming through it.
Serbia didn’t agree to jack shit.
https://wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/The_Serbian_Response_to_the_Austro-Hungarian_Ultimatum_(English_translation)
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This is like the WW1 version of "dindu Germany only wanted Danzig!?". Fuck off, the Germans wanted war.
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Everyone wanted war
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He couldn’t even retaliate when a Japanese dude sliced him with a Katana.
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He wanted Constantinople.
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