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Where in the bible does it say that God is omnibenevolent?
This is the biggest strawman of atheists. God loves us yes, but he’s not omnibenevolent. What is fair and just in heaven is not necessarily fair and just on earth.
When epicurus came with his statement about an "omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God, therefore how there is evil" he wasn’t talking about God as we know him, he lived in 300 B.C for christ sake
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You don’t even know what "omnibenevolent" means,do you?
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Englighten us then
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Omnibenevolence is simply the doctrine that all of God’s actions, words, thoughts and commands are directed towards ultimate good, meaning that God never does anything for the sake of pure evil, but everything is a pathway towards good.
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That is how Aquinas framed it, and how catholics perceive it. But omnibenevolent just means all-good, perfectly moral. Atheists frame it as the All-good. There is not a single verse that support that God is omnibenevolent
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>omnibenevolent just all-good, perfectly moral. There is not a single verse that support that God is omnibenevolent
God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
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>love
Nice buzzword
can you define it in a non-circular way?-
Paul went with this one in his letters, one of the most common chosen as the one the reading at weddings
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before that, he wrote:
>If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. -
That seems unrelated to the actual emotion of love. Perhaps a different word for this concept is required.
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>He doesn’t know most of the New Testament was written in Greek originally.
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Paul was inspired by the Holy spirit. A beautiful quote made by him, who was not a rich philospher like plato or a patrician, but a leatherworker.
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fpbp
seething athiest btfo
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Imagine knowing so little about your own religion, your imaginary enemies need to teach you about it so you can start discussing anything. This is some notable Napoleonic complex.
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>When epicurus came with his statement about an "omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God, therefore how there is evil" he wasn’t talking about God as we know him, he lived in 300 B.C for christ sake
Thanks for confirming your god didn’t exist before ~30AD -
God isn’t benevolent at all, he only "loves" us like a rapist loves his rape victim. God literally has explicitly told me that the only reason a person should be allowed to be attractive is so that they can be a rapeslave of the rich and powerful, and he threatens to mutilate me if I start to become attractive. God is a completely evil piece of shit. There is literally nothing good about him. Good things literally only exist to magnify suffering. This world is literally a torture chamber created by a sadistic scrotebrain.
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Unironically have sex buddy
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The demiurge will literally rape me if I have sex because "karma" in his scrotebrained evil chud scrotebrain brain means that having consensual sex with a woman means someone gets to rape you.
>you penetrated someone now someone has to penetrate you!!!!
God is a scrotebrained chud and this world is literally hell
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This sounds like you are warning people of a conspiracy theory. That isn’t from the Bible btw.
The Bible says glory of the flesh is reserved for when Jesus comes back if you are a Christian. So yes, God does allow the devil to reign here, and we are all suffering in the flesh as Christians. The suffering tells us what the truth is. If you weren’t suffering then you wouldn’t know what is really being endured here.
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Yes well that is why we should just use the Scriptures for God. Not use theology. If you want to use theological sounding words, then you can go throighnScripture first, and define it yourself, or get help from a Christian theologian who does exactly that with his job with a college degree in Bible Academy somewhere probably only offered in America. If it anywhere else it would be surprising.
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It’s literally not a straw man, it’s doctrine in multiple denominations
and a point specially brought up by Christian "thinkers" and apologizers, or whatever they are calledIf you want to claim every other Christian (or at least a bunch of them) are wrong, go ahead!
I think you would be smart to do so. Claiming that God is not all-good, just pretty good, but also wrathful and pissy, it fixes most of the outright contradiction that contemporary Christians struggles with defending -
Omnibenevolent means all-good. Good is defined by God, so he is by default omnibenevolent. When he causes Down Syndrome, that is also omnibenevolence.
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Golden Rule
>A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” -
Paul also wrote this to the community in Rome
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Gimli looks a bit like Jesus in the early 2000s LOTR franchise, available on Netflix, just with more ornaments
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maybe had he lived to 60, but Jesus died in his early 30s. Of course various cultures depict Jesus in art looking like someone from their culture, but it would be interesting to know what the actual Jesus looked like. Richard Neave, a British expert in forensic facial reconstruction. came up pic related in 2001
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Thats a reconstruction with an agenda behind it. It’s a "gotcha" to american christians, that doesn’t say anything about what Jesus looked like. Google search "iraqi garden gnomes", the most genetically close to israelis in 2000 years ago. Look at Josephus bust, Herod bust. garden gnomes did not look like your pic
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not the best example, lol
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Yup, does josephus look like the pic you posted?
That "reconstruction" seems more like a hobo than garden gnomes 2000 years ago-
Jesus was a hobo though. At least the 2001 version makes him look a bit more rugged and masculine than Josephus the gay nerd.
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careful with that edge son
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Christian apologetics peaked with 2004 memes, huh?
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its noot like you’re bringing any good takes to the table yourself
>that says nothing about omnibenevolence to all, just an individual beloved by god.
The whole concept of the bible is that we are create in God’s image and likeness, that we are God’s children.
Western civilization is woke af on Judeo-Christian values. The principles of democracy, for example, stem from the biblical principle that everybody is created equal (all children of God, all created in God’s image)
I accept that, I am trying to ascertain the clame of omnibenevolence, a claim that wasn’t raised in the bible. Do you understand my point? Saying that we were created in God’s image is actually an argument against this infinite benevolence
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> I am trying to ascertain the clame of omnibenevolence, a claim that wasn’t raised in the bible.
when it comes to main concepts that you don’t understand why they are accepted by Christianity (and there is more vigorous debate by Christians over the bible than there is by anyone over anything in history), I was like you, I didn’t think that Jesus actually claimed he was the Son of God, I thought that Jesus himself didn’t say that. Then I ended up reading a lot of books on Christianity and was like oh derp I’m scrotebrained, he actually straight out said it right there in the bible, I just didn’t understand it. I imagine its the same for you
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Jesus never said he was the son of God
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He referred to God as his daddy.
Do the math. -
Jesus was trans, she was the daughter of god.
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he also said "your Father that is in the sky"
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yes, I didn’t think so either, pretty much all my college years and in to grad school I felt that way. I knew Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me," and so the fact (in my head, that he didn’t actually say he was God wasn’t a big deal to me, just an interesting side-note I believed at the time)
But when scribes and the Pharisees where testing him, asking him who he was, on what authority he spoke etc, Jesus told tham he was "I AM." I never got that because I never read the footnotes
> [8:24, 28] I AM: an expression that late gnomish tradition understood as Yahweh’s own self-designationBut Jesus was straight up saying to them "I am God" (Yahweh, I AM, etc)
also note Jesus didn’t write anything, so we don’t lnow what he said. The earliest Christian writings we have are the letters of Paul, who went around Europe foundind Christian communities and visiting and writing letters to them
Of those communities, generations later, they started writing Gospels woke af on what was passed down to them, but none of those Christian communities knew Jesus as well as Paul did, as they were generations after Paul, and founded by Paul, and Paul is clear throught all this writing that Jesus is the Son of God
As for the Gospels, they contradict each other one the basic timeline of Jesus’s life, which is why Christians don’t believe in Scriputure like the Muslims believe in the Quran (which they believe was dictated straight from God).
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he asked them a question to answer that and they never delivered
Jesus never said he was God or was the son of God
if you keep saying he did at least post the verses
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why am I have to do your work for you?
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You’re misinterpreting the Mark and Matthew quotes. If you remove your modern christian bias and think as a 1st century convert, he’s claiming an elevated status but not that he’s God himself.
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What about John, you know, the gospel with the highest christology: "Before Abraham was, I Am"?
Thats pretty clear
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>with the highest christology
Read: most recent and inauthentic. -
>If you remove your modern christian bias and think as a 1st century convert,
for that, look to Paul, who even got called to trial in Jerusalem because he was teaching that Christians not longer have to follow gnomish Law, just Christ. Go read any of Paul letters and all of them are about Christ as the Son of God
Paul to the the community in Rome
>Starts with "Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus," who a few words later he calls "his Son" (Son of God), then continues: " established as Son of God in power according to the spirit of holiness through resurrection…Through him (the Son of God) we have received the grace of apostleship, to bring about the obedience of faith, for the sake of his name, among all the Gentiles, among whom are you also, who are called to belong to Jesus Christ, to all the beloved of God in Rome, called to be holy.* Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.all of his writings are like this
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he continues:
>First, I give thanks* to my God through Jesus Christ. … God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in proclaiming the gospel of his Sonthen going to the end of his letter, it is
>* I urge you, siss, to watch out for those who create dissensions and obstacles, in opposition to the teaching that you learned; avoid them. For such people do not serve our Lord Christ … The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you. -
Son of God does not mean that Jesus IS God. What he did believe was that Jesus had an elevated status. Ask yourself why Paul never explicitly says Jesus = God or why the Corinthian creed lacks that idea.
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I’ve read several books on all the conflicting views of who Jesus was in the first few centuries of Christianity, it was interesting to see how many different views there were. But they all got together at the First Council of Nicaea (AD 325) and hammered it out
As for the New Testament, and the Gospel, remember, this was all writing by Christian leaders at various times, no different than the Christian leaders at the First Council of Nicaea, and Christian leaders from the time of Jesus until today, they all all inspired by the Holy Spirit the same
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I mean it’s a little odd that it took the Holy Spirit three centuries to gift us our version of the trinity. Why didn’t the resurrected Christ bother to tell his twelve disciples, the 500 witnesses or Paul about this? Why add in confusing verses to scripture like "The Father is greater than I" in John?
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>I mean it’s a little odd that it took the Holy Spirit three centuries to gift us our version of the trinity.
by that logic, then what should be a little odd to you that it took until 2,000 years ago for God to send us Jesus
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It is pretty odd. What I mean is if Jesus rose from the dead and conversed with his disciples in Galilee, he surely would have said "I’m actually God" or just given them the future Athanasian creed to recite. It’s just weird is all.
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another note to you (and everyone in this thread confused with their little 3rd-grade-tier knowledge of Christianity), one great read is On Being a Christian by Hans Kung, who I’m sure you will find to be a brilliant/sharp mind
In his part of the concept of how God had to have his Son die for our sins, which is a concept that seems pretty silly to a lot of people understandably, he sympathize and pretty much much straight-up writes to feel free to not worry about that idea or other such ideas that confuse your or keep you from Christ, as the whole point of being a Christian is being centered on Christ, much like being a Buddhism is to be centered on Buddha, regardless if the theological details confuse you. I wish I was as sharp or smart or eloquent as Kung was, but I am not. I strongly recommend his book though, you’ll love it, at least the parts you are interested in on the Table of Contents (as it is a long book)
Definitely must-read for those interesting in Christianity
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(I think I added that right)
Yes, Jesus is constantly called "the Son OF God" and never (in a properly translated bible) called "God the Son." There are plenty of individual verses… but also full chapters that hammer down that Jesus is, was, and always will be subservient to "his God." John 5, John 17, 1 Corinthians 15 are about as explicit as you can get. One of my favorites (because translators have to butcher it SO bad to try to obscure what it says) is Hebrews chapter 1. Here’s a full verse by verse breakdown:
(presuming I can post youtube links)
https://youtu.be/UnZJiRVIJls -
as for your (and everyone ITT) confusion over theology, note that I hear ministers with doctorates in theology say that your average Christian has a 3rd grade tier knowledge of Christianity, so note that is what you are working with yourself
As for me, I have my doctorate (Juris Doctorate) and it’s wild when I see people on here having legal discussions, discussing law and acting like they know what they are talking about, when in reality they actually have a 3rd-grade tier knowledge of it, so I understand what those ministers feel like when they say that
Note, all this has been vigorously debated for 2,000 years by some minds more educated and wise than we will ever be, so it’s kinda dumb to show up and act like they don’t know what they were talking about, but thinking that you do
What you should do is go read up all this and educate yourself, it’s actually fascinating stuff you will love if you enjoy the topic of Christianity
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he is not saying he is God, but the messiah
the messiah never was ment to be God
and he always refers God as his Father
and tell us God is our Father too -
Jesus only claims to be God in John, which is fanfiction from the 2nd century. The earliest Christians don’t seem to be aware that Jesus is God either. I guess he never bothered to tell them after his flesh rose from the dead.
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I’m the OP and the anon you replied to, I’m a christian as well sis, what I am trying to ascertain and the point i’m raising is that the the omnibenevolence, and in fact all platonic qualities that are attributed to God are in fact not corroborated by scripture, and are a strawman that atheists love to raise when debating with christians. I also was struggling with faith some months ago and read some books about it, Christ is King and thanks for your input. 🙂
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No, Jesus resurrected and he didn’t look like he lived under the effects of sin as depicted there.
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Goodness is a great making property entailed in His perfection
Love follows from that goodness
how is this hard? -
God to Jeremiah, one of the major prophets in the Old Testament
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that says nothing about omnibenevolence to all, just an individual beloved by god.
Paul also wrote this to the community in Rome
Love one another who are christians, read John about the love between those Elect.
Again, love one another who are christians. Read the full chapter in John where this quote comes from, its clear as water
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>that says nothing about omnibenevolence to all, just an individual beloved by god.
The whole concept of the bible is that we are create in God’s image and likeness, that we are God’s children.
Western civilization is woke af on Judeo-Christian values. The principles of democracy, for example, stem from the biblical principle that everybody is created equal (all children of God, all created in God’s image)
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>The principles of democracy, for example, stem from the biblical principle
what about the Greeks?
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God to Isaiah. Who was the greatest of the Old Testament prophets? Elijah, Jeremiah, Isaiah? Some will say Elijah, some will say Jeremiah, some will say Isaiah
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> neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God
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Where is the all-good omnibenevolent part?
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dude good point
also love is painful sometimes, love hurts, love is hard
LIKE MY PEEENIS haha no jk but you are onto something -
>we are the temple of the living God; as God said
>(quote scripture:) and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.”-
My father loves me but he is stern, sometimes though and sometimes lets me fuck myself so I can learn a lesson. Thats not omnibenevolence
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The idea of strictly omnibenevolent God is a Zoroastrian idea, which is why, when God used the Zoroastrian Persian king Cyrus (See Isaiah 45:1) as his anointed (messiah), to save the gnomish people from the Babylonian captivity (which was their discipline for their actions in Jeremiah and Ezekiel), he says
Isaiah 45:7 (ASV) I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
To be fair, the word there translated as "evil" is more of "the opposite of comfort" … disaster/calamity… "unpleasant stuff," rather than "evil" as in a binary opposite to "good."
God isn’t micromanaging the universe, and is not responsible for every time you stub your toe… but for the greater, long term good, we have to go through some trials. Just like a loving parent may discipline their child, and that discipline is unpleasant at the moment… but still necessary, and out of love.
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God sounds like an economist
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The economical trinity is just as unbiblical as any other attempted definition of the trinity.
5:30 ““I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”
12:49 “I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it.”
17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”
So, is there a contradiction in the bible, or a problem with interpretation?
Yes, “the word became flesh,” the same “word” that was WITH God… not the God the word was with.
Yes, 20:28 shows thomas’ declaration… in response to 9 verses earlier where Jesus himself said “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my siss and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
Which is a repetition of what he calls the GREATEST commandment in Mark 12:28-34 where he declares “Ἄκουε, Ἰσραήλ, Κύριος ὁ Θεὸς ἡμῶν Κύριος εἷς ἐστιν” notice “ho theos hemon” OUR God, 1st person plural, including himself in who God is “the God of” which is a recitation of the sh’ma from Deuteronomy 6:4
“שְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה | אֶחָֽד”
Yehovah Eloheinu (“Jehovah is the God of US”)
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Zoroastrians have a different god for darkness and evil though, Angra Mainyu.
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I’m pretty sure this is heresy Anon
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