Where does free will come from?

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    • #121679
      Anonymous
      Guest

      >you don’t choose your instincts
      >you don’t choose your past experiences
      >you don’t choose the neurons you have or the way they interact
      >you don’t choose your soul (if you believe in that)
      >you don’t choose the results of random events
      So where does free will get created?

    • #121683
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Does it matter?

    • #121686
      Anonymous
      Guest

      >still thinking free will doesnt exist
      tell your puppeteer he’s a moron

    • #121688
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Free will is impossible on MANY grounds. People only refuse to accept it because it disturbs them too much. Srs.

      Nobody who impartially considers the topic could ever possibly believe in free will… Look at the desperate grasping known as "compatabilism" lmfao… "Yeah you have choice, just you were always gonna make that choice", any cope to avoid the truth that if you "decide" to kill someone you were ALWAYS going to decide it.

    • #121691
      Anonymous
      Guest

      hard determinism is the midwit trap

      soft determinism is more likely

    • #121693
      Anonymous
      Guest

      You’re using a definition of choice that nobody uses

      • #121700
        Anonymous
        Guest

        >if we define free will to mean that everything you done is controlled by factors outside your control, then you do have free will!

    • #121704
      Anonymous
      Guest

      If I don’t have free will then what’s the point in trying to convince me that I don’t have free will? I’m forced to believe in free will and not be convinced by your arguments, right? Even people who deny free will intuitively act as if they and others have it.

      • #121708
        Anonymous
        Guest

        >If I don’t have free will then what’s the point in trying to convince me that I don’t have free will?
        Because I don’t have a choice to not try and convince you, since thoughts are memetic and also subject to selection pressures.

        Also thoughts are rarely binary. You may not be convinced now, but it may influence you to be convinced in the future.

        • #121709
          Anonymous
          Guest

          >selection pressures
          the word ‘selection’ doesn’t make any sense if there’s no free will

          • #121713
            Anonymous
            Guest

            ?????????
            do you think viruses have free will?

            • #121716
              Anonymous
              Guest

              Not him but comparing viruses (things that aren’t alive) to humans is pretty dumb

              • #121736
                Anonymous
                Guest

                viruses have selection pressures
                bacteria also has selection pressures

                life isn’t required to have selection pressures

                probably not
                but that’s not really what i’m saying

                people say "there’s no sense in which free will exists"
                so they don’t even want a casual, metaphorical sense of it to be accepted
                but they still go about their lives using words like selection and choice, even if just in metaphorical senses.

                >probably not
                but they have selection pressures
                >but they still go about their lives using words like selection and choice, even if just in metaphorical senses.
                selection in this case doesn’t mean somebody is consciously making a choice. it means the better adapted construct will survive/propagate itself better than other constructs that aren’t as well adapted

                this could apply to organisms, chemical compounds, and even ideas

                • #121737
                  Anonymous
                  Guest

                  >selection in this case doesn’t mean somebody is consciously making a choice. it means the better adapted construct will survive/propagate itself better than other constructs that aren’t as well adapted
                  so it’s valid to come up with an idea that is named after the idea of choosing, and works quite a bit like it, but slightly more concepts like deciding how many beers to have don’t actually exist, and all moral theory around them can be thrown out

                  • #121738
                    Anonymous
                    Guest

                    >slightly more complicated* concepts

                  • #121739
                    Anonymous
                    Guest

                    It’s just the word used to describe it. It has never meant some all-seeing evolution organism that has free will to choose which organisms succeed or fail
                    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/natural%20selection

                    • #121747
                      Anonymous
                      Guest

                      you’re saying it’s just a coincidence that they used the same letters and pronunciation?

                    • #121776
                      Anonymous
                      Guest

                      >It has never meant some all-seeing evolution organism that has free will to choose which organisms succeed or fail
                      It basically means the environment and it imposes its own sets of pressures.

                  • #121830
                    Anonymous
                    Guest

                    Darwin himself didn’t like the terms selection pressure and survival of the fittest because he realised that they implied the wrong ideas about his theories, this is just what happens when you dumb down science for the masses to get a general understanding

                • #121754
                  Anonymous
                  Guest

                  >selection pressures
                  Doesn’t exist, Quantum indeterminacy (Free Will) > Biology.

            • #121719
              Anonymous
              Guest

              probably not
              but that’s not really what i’m saying

              people say "there’s no sense in which free will exists"
              so they don’t even want a casual, metaphorical sense of it to be accepted
              but they still go about their lives using words like selection and choice, even if just in metaphorical senses.

          • #121774
            Anonymous
            Guest

            >the word ‘selection’ doesn’t make any sense if there’s no free will
            Yes it does, the word pressure wouldn’t make sense if you could just freely select anything, you can’t because your choices are limited and some of those limits are selection pressures whether from the environment or as a result of your own internal brain chemistry and neuron competition.

        • #121760
          Anonymous
          Guest

          Well I think your arguments are dogshit and I still believe in free will. But I was forced to write that so you can’t blame me. Though you could always say you’re forced to blame me and then we’d go in circles.

          >if everything is predetermined then people can never change and events can never happen
          kek what did he mean by this

          When did I say any of that? Obviously people and events can change. My point is when you try to convince someone of your position, you assume they have the free will to change their minds, otherwise why bother? Assuming I’m never going to be convinced by your arguments then I was always pre-determined not to be convinced. Just let things be. But I guess you could say you were pre-determined to try to convince me so I don’t see a point to this discussion. By responding to my comments and writing rebuttals you’re acting as if we have free will right now.

          • #121763
            Anonymous
            Guest

            Your line of argument is completely scrotebrained.

            • #121765
              Anonymous
              Guest

              How is my argument scrotebrained? I think it’s pretty clear and straightforward. But even if it is scrotebrained, no free will meant I was forced to write scrotebrained arguments therefore it’s not my fault.

          • #121778
            Anonymous
            Guest

            >By responding to my comments and writing rebuttals you’re acting as if we have free will right now.
            No they are acting like you don’t have a complete information set in reference to them and is trying to fill in the blanks so that your brain chemistry undergoes a similar response as they once had which compels you to come to similar conclusions as they arrived at.

            If they assumed you could just freely pick and choose what was true, there would be no point in trying to offer up new unsolicited information to you after you have already appeared to reject it.

      • #121711
        Anonymous
        Guest

        >if everything is predetermined then people can never change and events can never happen
        kek what did he mean by this

    • #121705
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Uncertainty principle

    • #121735
      Anonymous
      Guest

      >tfw literally DESTINED to be a mediocre mathematician
      What did God mean by this?

    • #121745
      Anonymous
      Guest

      https://i.imgur.com/hsktPPi.gif

      >D-d-d-did somebody way… FREE WILL????

      DUDE I FRIGGIN LOVE PHILOSOPHY

    • #121750
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Free will is the choices we have and decisions we make to pick from the possible outcomes in each situation (learning lessons) we set for ourselves before being born but no matter what our life will typically have a common theme/purpose no matter what free will decisions we make. If this lifetime for you is about learning discipline or suffering by being a homeless drug addict or a criminal no matter what free will decisions you make your never gonna end up being a doctor or a college professor because that’s not your role/purpose this lifetime or the lessons your learning in this incarnation, were all playing the roles we wanted to come in an play for whatever reason, we think we have free will and we do but in a way we don’t it just looks that way. Free will is the choice to rebel from your life plan and create karma or stick to it and learn the lesson and get out of the reincarnation cycle, you don’t have to reincarnate but you can’t ascend to the upper dimensions with unreleased karma

      • #121870
        Anonymous
        Guest

        That’s just will, doesn’t mean you are FREE to choose the will

    • #121755
      Anonymous
      Guest

      free will only exists when we realize that we dont have it

      only by understanding that our entire character is just a domino in a giant web of sprawling madness. to the point where everything we are can be attributed to luck and the life we were born into by chance nobody has free will over their personal prefernces, no straight men force themselves to be gay suddenly for no reason, you cant force yourself to like the taste of coffee or liquor if your biology just genuinely doesnt like it.

      but people often become a victim of subconscious because you can actually trick yourself to like things. People can build a tolerance for anything, even malort, but they have to choose to do it. What happens though is that some people build a tolerance for cruelty or perversion or hurting others. And cuz they don’t know that free will doesn’t exist, they can’t realize that tolerance for things, good and bad, can be changed. Depression is literally a diseases where people believe they have less choice than they actually do, imagine how bad that is when you don’t even realize you’re completely a slave to your initial conditions.

    • #121757
      Anonymous
      Guest

      maybe a more salient point would be when and how did it supposedly evolve?

      I don’t think most people who believe in free will would say the inorganic atoms on Earth have free will.

      nor did organic compounds like amino acids
      so where did it evolve? bacteria? vertebrates? invertebrates? mammals? primates? humans?

    • #121766
      Anonymous
      Guest

      You do. Absolute free will makes no freaking sense, as you’d be a walking cartoon character "free" to do any number of absurd things. Freedom of choice only makes sense within parameters, which is how most serious philosophers and scientsts frame it.

      • #121767
        Anonymous
        Guest

        >you have free will but only to do 1 action
        cool

      • #121843
        Anonymous
        Guest

        What is considered absurd here? Running through walls? Or if it’s realism bound, why wouldn’t you be able to do absolutely anything you want, even absurd things? Are you made of clay or something?

    • #121769
      Anonymous
      Guest

      >you don’t choose your instincts
      That isn’t the only thing that goes into one’s behavior and you do get to choose your behavior for the most part.

      >you don’t choose your past experiences
      You made the choices while the past was actively happening when it was still the present.

      >you don’t choose the neurons you have or the way they interact
      Yes, you can control some of them and affect your own brain plasticity through mindfulness, repetition, and concentration.

      >you don’t choose your soul (if you believe in that)
      You have free will that allows you to control the purity of your soul (if you believe in that lol).

      >you don’t choose the results of random events
      You get to choose how to react to them.

      • #122054
        Anonymous
        Guest

        >That isn’t the only thing that goes into one’s behavior and you do get to choose your behavior for the most part.
        yeah im sure you decide when you’re hungry or when your eyes need rubbed

        • #122100
          Anonymous
          Guest

          Yes, I do. With enough concentration, I can decide to ignore those feelings and focus instead on thinking. Thinking about tity

    • #121771
      Anonymous
      Guest

      I haven’t believed in free will since I was a teenager, and nothing has changed my mind since then.

    • #121780
      sagium
      Guest

      Chris Langan’s CTMU and Penrose’s Orch OR(starting with Emperor’s New Mind). If you don’t *at least* read them then you are no more than a woke afjak pretending to ask something but in reality forcing his uneducated ideology here.

    • #121800
      Anonymous
      Guest

      You are nothing but a self-observing entity of the automaton that is your flesh prison.

      Free will doesn’t exist but complicated enough animals, as agents with goals, decide on their actions. We happen have the most complicated decision-making skills. Sentience is nothing but your ability to self-simulate yourself including your feelings.

      If you could exactly simulate the nervous system including the whole body, you could predict all the decisions. Such a system would be very complex and nonlinear so due to chaos it’ll probably be nonperiodic (basically random) despite being deterministic. Indeterministic quantum effects (if they exist) are irrelevant because biology functions at a much larger scale, which is deterministic as far as we can tell. Even if it was truly random (i.e. even God couldn’t tell), there’s no reason to suggest (You) could control it woke af on your "will".

      It’s fine if people want to call it the "free will". When people are told they don’t have one, they become more cruel because their decisions are affected by what they know. If the relative weight of "responsibility against society" decreases when decision-making, then they tend make worse decisions for the society.

    • #121804
      Anonymous
      Guest

      >it’s another episode of NPCs refuting their own nonsensical notion of free will

    • #121827
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Unlike believers in determinism, believers in free will don’t believe the mind is some magical disembodied incorporeal unphysical entity (they may don’t actively believe that, but they are needlessly begging the question that a mind must be like that to be compatible with free will). The decisions one makes are the result of its decision making process, and are fully embedded within the underlying framework of physics, the same way how randomness and causality can exist side by side. Or how the ontological difference in substance between math and physics doesn’t mean they are not related. Just because there is no "physical" number "3" in the world, doesn’t mean I can’t subtract 2 apples from 5 to get, truly, 3 apples.
      >>you don’t choose your soul (if you believe in that)
      >etc.
      How does that conflict with free will? Once again, these are the absolutely worst, bottom-tier, disgraceful brainlet tier arguments the determinists can bring. Absolutely no one that believes in free will is some blank slate extremist. We are the anti-absolutist camp: the determinist one of the absolutist one.

    • #121831
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Anton syndrome is good evidence that the brain simply convinces itself of things like free will.

      People with the condition are totally blind but the part of their brain that processes and confirms sight is damaged, these people despite being blind and utterly convinced that they can see despite all the evidence proving that they can’t see.

      In experiments researchers will do things like ask how many fingers they are holding up, the subjects who can’t see will just guess at a number and if they get it wrong there brains will come up with random ellababorate excuses as to why they were wrong, because they are literally incapable of accepting that they are blind.

      It is much the same way with free will, the entire universe is the product of cause and effect and our brains exist within the universe so they are subject to it aswell, sure the outcomes are incredibly complicated so understanding why a certain outcome in a particular person occured is impossible to determine in most cases.

      The brain much like in Anton’s syndrome will convince you that your decision was one in which you chose willingly but it wasn’t, easier examples to grasp are things like when you do something you know you really shouldn’t like procrastinate doing work, you’ll often convince yourself that it’s fine, you’ll do it later, or you deserve to relax right now ect. But deep down you know you should just be getting on with the work.

      The brain is very good at convincing us of things because we are our brains and what they say, is what goes

      • #121842
        Anonymous
        Guest

        >it’s not real because i said so
        Very new and original. I’m sure someone will be convinced. I’m confused as to the purpose of the other drivel in your post.

        • #121844
          Anonymous
          Guest

          It’s an example of how our brains convince us of things which aren’t true, such as free will, did you even read it?

          • #121845
            Anonymous
            Guest

            >It’s an example of how our brains convince us of things which aren’t true
            It’s an example of some people being delusional, which illustrates exactly nothing unless you already accept the premise that free will is delusional, so what’s the purpose of that drivel, again? To pad your standardized rhetoric and make you seem more intelligent in front of other NPCs?

            • #121846
              Anonymous
              Guest

              Someone’s a little angry, did your free will choose to be angry or was the post the cause, the outcome being, your aggression

              • #121847
                Anonymous
                Guest

                Point still stands that your drivel has zero persuasive value, and zero explanatory value even if one believes in determinism.

                • #121849
                  Anonymous
                  Guest

                  Of course it has value, you just don’t understand it, the best way to study and understand the brain is to study those with brain damage, the healthy parts of the brain of people with Anton syndrome convince themselves that they can see, even tho they can’t, it’s an example of how are brains convince us of things which aren’t true, saying I know I have free will isn’t an argument because your brain is not a reliable source when it comes to monitoring itself

                  • #121851
                    Anonymous
                    Guest

                    >it’s an example of how are brains convince us of things which aren’t true
                    It’s an example of delusional people. Why do you think screeching that those who disagree with you are delusional, is an intelligent point to make?

                    • #121852
                      Anonymous
                      Guest

                      Hardly screeching, just giving valid points that are evidence against free will, I can think of evidence that supports the idea of free will,vi just think it’s funnier to argue against people online.

                      By all means give a valid counter argument beyond saying my point doesn’t make sense, I’d be happy to discuss it

                      • #121853
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >giving valid points that are evidence against free will
                        The existence of delusional people is evidence against free will? In what way?

                      • #121855
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        I literally can’t explain my point in a more basic way, I guess you can’t argue with stupid

                      • #121858
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        You can’t explain why the existence of delusional people is evidence against free will?

                      • #121862
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        I’ve already explained my point, you’re not getting it, in the case of Anton syndrome the parts of the brain that come up with the dillusion that they can see are perfectly functional, they are operating in the way they are supposed to, just lacking the input from the parts of the brain which tell them they can’t see because it’s that part which is damaged.

                        If the area of the brain that makes up the excuses for being blind is functioning properly then it’s just doing what it’s designed to do, the best our brains can do is just make guesses as to what’s really going on, that’s why things like visual illusions work, they are tricking the brain into believing something which is false.

                        Therefore the argument that I have free will because I think I do is not a valid one, because our brains are not reliable

                        That was a point

                      • #121868
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >in the case of Anton syndrome…
                        Yes, delusional people do exist. How is that an argument against free will?

                        >the argument that I have free will because I think I do is not a valid one
                        The argument that chairs are real because I perceive them, is not a valid one, either. Who was even making that argument in the first place, though?

                      • #121875
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        Because the parts of the brain that come up with the delusion are functioning properly, its evidence that a properly functioning brain makes up delusions

                      • #121878
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >the parts of the brain that come up with the delusion are functioning properly
                        They’re clearly not functioning properly if they come up with delusions in situations where the vast majority of people are able to adequately assess the situation. Either way, how does the existence of delusional people serve as evidence against free will?

                      • #121880
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >how does the existence of delusional people serve as evidence against free will?
                        It means you can’t use "i feel free will" as evidence of free will since you have no way of separating delusion from reality without evidence other than your own internal feelings.

                      • #121882
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >It means you can’t use "i feel free will" as evidence of free will
                        By that logic, you also can’t use "my senses tell me there’s a chair" as evidence for a chair, but who was even making that argument? Are you schizophrenic by any chance?

                      • #121886
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        No because a chair is something anyone else can validate, its not something inside of you.
                        It would be more like saying you can’t use your senses to tell me that the color of dreams is yellow.

                      • #121888
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >a chair is something anyone else can validate
                        "Anyone else" would be as real or as imaginary as that chair.

                      • #122060
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        You’re freaking stupid if your next train of thought after "you can’t trust that your feelings are 100% accurate" is "therefore senses can’t be trusted at all to know if something tangible is real".
                        Empty rhetoric because you don’t actually believe this or act as if this is true outside of scrotebrained theological debates.
                        If you had a hallucination you know full damn well you wouldn’t come to the conclusion "that must have been objective reality", you would freak out and get a doctor.

                      • #122061
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        It follows from your train of thought, not from mine. It’s not my fault that you’re so simple-minded.

                      • #121884
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        As I explained already they aren’t recieving the signal that there is no visual data, so they make stuff up, and as I said originally the brain and the external forces acting upon it is an incredibly complicated system and can’t be easily recorded and understood, they can’t be fully comprehended by a single person making a particular descion,

                        So the brain lacking the data needed to fully comprehend why it’s making a particular descion instead makes one up, it makes the delusion that it’s actually their own free will that brought about that decision

                      • #121887
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        They’re simply delusional, and there’s clearly some kind of malfunction going on, because the vast majority of blind people understand that they can’t see. How does the existence of delusional people serve as evidence against free will, though?

                      • #121890
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        What evidence of free will are you talking about?

                      • #121893
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        I didn’t mention any evidence of free will. Take your pills.

                      • #121902
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        Agreed, there is no evidence of free will other than a few people who say they feel like they have it and delusion is evidence against that kind of anecdote.

                      • #121909
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >there is no evidence of free will
                        Prove it, scrote. There is no evidence that you’re anything more than an NPC, either.

                      • #121913
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        The burden of proof is not on those that believe free doesn’t exist it’s those that believe it does.

                        Just as the burden of proof as to whether god exists is on those who believe it and not on those who dont

                      • #121914
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        The burden of proof is on the guy making a claim, and that happens to be you.

                      • #121918
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        You have the burden of proof to claim something exists, you don’t if you claim it doesn’t and there currently isn’t evidence to suggest that it does

                      • #121922
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >You have the burden of proof to claim something exists
                        I didn’t make any claims about something existing. You did make some claims, though. Why don’t you want to prove them?

                      • #121928
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        No I have evidence to suggest why free will may not exist, there currently isn’t any solid proof that free will does exist, if you want to prove the existence of something you need evidence

                      • #121932
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >I have evidence to suggest why free will may not exist
                        >may not
                        That’s cool. Do you have evidence to suggest that it DOES NOT exist, though?

                      • #121936
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        Yes read the posts on Anton syndrome, lots of people really not getting it, personallyvim not convinced fully either way, it’s just interested to put forward evidence to a side and see how many people simply argue points poorly

                      • #121937
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >Yes read the posts on Anton syndrome
                        How does the existence of delusional people with brain damage refute free will?

                      • #121949
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        The only evidence for free will is personal feelings and a person’s feelings are prone to delusion.
                        Why is that so hard for you to understand?

                      • #121954
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >The only evidence for free will is personal feelings
                        Prove it, scrote.

                      • #121960
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        Well I don’t have those feelings and the following is all my evidence for the existence of free will:

                      • #121964
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >I don’t have those feelings
                        Who cares?

                        >the following is all my evidence
                        >all the evidence
                        >all MY evidence
                        Oh.

                      • #121969
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        It is all My evidence and all the evidence presented by your and all the evidence available in this thread, feel free to contribute evidence if you have it, until then, there is none available to us in this thread.

                      • #121971
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >It is all My evidence
                        Who cares? You said that there is no evidence at all.

                        >feel free to contribute evidence if you have it
                        You too.

                      • #121986
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >You said that there is no evidence at all.
                        If there is evidence I am not aware of, then where is it, why are you holding out?

                      • #121994
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >why are you holding out?
                        Because I have no interest in having such discussions with self-admitted NPCs.

                      • #121953
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        It has been explained several times on this thread, if you still don’t get it, you never will

                      • #121958
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >It has been explained several times on this thread
                        Mentally ill drones simply keep reiterating that delusional people are evidence against free will because they exist. It has not been explained, and will not be explained, because it’s a complete nonsequitur from the get go.

                      • #121916
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle
                        >Some scientists including Arthur Compton[96] and Martin Heisenberg[97] have suggested that the uncertainty principle, or at least the general probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics, could be evidence for the two-stage model of free will. One critique, however, is that apart from the basic role of quantum mechanics as a foundation for chemistry, nontrivial biological mechanisms requiring quantum mechanics are unlikely, due to the rapid decoherence time of quantum systems at room temperature.[98] Proponents of this theory commonly say that this decoherence is overcome by both screening and decoherence-free subspaces found in biological cells.[98]
                        Free Will is a fact, since determinism is not an absolute.

                      • #121924
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        We don’t know wether it is absolute or not, the quantum world appears to random, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t some cause we simply don’t understand yet

                      • #121933
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        If you already know determinism is not absolute why do you choose to believe there is no evidence for free will? All free will is saying is that determinism is not the ultimate rule of our decision making process

                      • #121943
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        We don’t know determinism is not absolute, it appears that way in the quantum world, but as the common saying goes, if you think you understand quantum physics, then you really don’t understand quantum physics, it’s still entirely possible that there is cause and effect in the quantum world we just haven’t discovered it yet

                      • #121975
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        > it’s still entirely possible that there is cause and effect in the quantum world
                        There is already cause and effect in quantum world, since the core quantum equation is the Schrödinger equation, and the Schrödinger equation is Time dependant therefore qm even if it taken by its indeterministic interpretation does not deny causality.

                      • #121977
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        Evidence for my point thanks haha

                      • #121979
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        No, that’s evidence for Compatibilism, since determinism is not absolute, determinism =/= causality.

                      • #121934
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        This is good argument towards free will existing, the first one I think on this thread, most other people simply not providing evidence to there arguments

                      • #121939
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        No, that make free will an uncertainty at best.

                      • #122046
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        Not only is the Uncertaintly Principle a direct consequence of determinism, but even if it weren’t, it would still say absolutely nothing about Free Will

                      • #121896
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        Jesus dude i just explained why

                        and I told you the malfunction the part of their brain that monitors if there is any visual information is broken so it can’t tell other parts of the brain that there is no visual data so the brains carries on like there is

                      • #121900
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >the malfunction the part of their brain that monitors if there is any visual information is broken
                        But you said they don’t actually perceive anything, and simply make shit up.

                      • #121911
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        Yes they are blind but the part of the brain that tells other parts of the brain that they are blind is damaged, so the other parts of the brain don’t know they are blind and instead make stuff up.

                        These same parts of the brains are the ones that come up with the idea of free will, they are unable to receive all the data needed to comprehend why they made a particular descion because it is too complex to understand and in evolutionary terms is not something that is needed to understand in order to survive, the lack of such data cause the brain to make up reasons as to why it’s made a particular decision, reasons such as free will

                      • #121912
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        So they’re experiencing delusions because they have brain damage. Nice. How does the existence of delusional people disprove free will?

                      • #121917
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        The parts of the brain that come up with the dillusions are not damaged, they simply aren’t recieving all the data needed to understand that they are blind,

                        In much the same way when making a decision your brain isn’t receiving all of the data, the factors that cause the decision so they come up with the delusion that it’s free will

                      • #121919
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >The parts of the brain that come up with the dillusions are not damaged
                        They come up with delusions because they have brain damage. I guess what you’re really trying to say (and miserably failing, due to your poor example) is that people with normal brains can also suffer from delusions. Cool. How does the existence of delusional people refute free will, though?

                      • #121920
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >if i kill i you, you stop moving therefore no free will
                        scrotebrain

                      • #121898
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >How does the existence of delusional people serve as evidence against free will, though?
                        It is evidence that free will is potentially a delusion.

                      • #121904
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >the existence of delusional people proves that things i don’t believe in are more likely to be delusions
                        Solid argument.

                      • #121908
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >i don’t believe in
                        and nobody can provide evidence of

                      • #121910
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        Now you’re just reinforcing the original dogshit argument with another layer of dogshit, though, and pretending that the original was solid.

                      • #121926
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        Then feel free to give evidence until then I have none.

                      • #121930
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        > feel free to give evidence
                        I don’t care to convince you of anything, though. I’m just questioning your beliefs.

                      • #121945
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        This is LULZ we have measurements, not beliefs.

                      • #121947
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >we have measurements
                        Show me the "measurement" that confirms your belief.

                      • #121957
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        I have no measurements and you can’t measure something that doesn’t exist. Do you have any measurement of free will metrics?

                      • #121962
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >I have no measurements
                        Then why do you keep vomiting your opinions and getting assblasted when they’re questioned?

                      • #121965
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        Because you don’t have any measurements either, but you keep claiming something that has no evidence exists.

                      • #121967
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >you keep claiming something that has no evidence exists
                        I do? Quote it.

                      • #121959
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        * Show me the measurements that confirm your hypothesis

                        Let’s get the terminology correct

                      • #121906
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        Exactly are brains inability to comprehend all the external and internal factors that lead to a particular decision, means our brains instead make up a reason, that reason being the illusion of free will

                      • #121866
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        Yes it proves that it is more likely that free will is just another one of many, delusions people can suffer.

                      • #121872
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >the existence of delusional people proves that things i don’t believe in are more likely to be delusions

                      • #121874
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >things i don’t believe
                        Things with no evidence that can not be demonstrated and have to be felt somehow.

                      • #121876
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >Things with no evidence that can not be demonstrated and have to be felt somehow
                        Like the claim that you’re actually conscious, and not an NPC lacking any sort of internal experience?

                      • #121877
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        No, you can demonstrate awareness with things like telling someone how many fingers they are holding up or just reacting to stimuli in your environment in general.

                      • #121879
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >autonomous cars are conscious, just like me

                      • #121881
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        How many autonomous cars have you had a detailed conversation with where you attempted the the finger test on?

                      • #121883
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >telling someone how many fingers they are holding up
                        >How many autonomous cars have you had a detailed conversation with
                        Nice goalpost moving. Ignoring any further posts from you.

                      • #121885
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        No, the finger test requires detailed conversation ability and a meeting of the minds to recognize that a test is taking place, learn the rules, and perform accordingly.

              • #121935
                Anonymous
                Guest

                Do not feed the scrotebrain, anon.

    • #121848
      Anonymous
      Guest

      from this i see:
      >the past happened
      >the future will happen
      >you have a mental illness whether you want to or not
      >therefore free will doesnt exist
      weakest argument i have seen yet. its literally saying "if you command your broken arm to regenerate instantly and it doesnt you dont have free will".

    • #121850
      Anonymous
      Guest

      So many brainlets ITT who’ve never thought deeply about the issue. If your IQ is above 120 and if you think about it just a little bit you will quickly realize that you have free will.

      • #121864
        Anonymous
        Guest

        You must have thought about it so hard, you are at a total loss for words about the actual issue of free will.

    • #121856
      Anonymous
      Guest

      My perspective on free will is this:
      If you define free will as complete control over your actions and reactions to things, then free will is an illusion. Things like instinct and emotions get in the way of this quite often.
      If you define free will as the ability to have a conscious input in your decision making however, then it does exist within humans at least.

    • #121860
      Anonymous
      Guest

      "Free will" doesn’t mean the actions you take magically appear out of nowhere, it means it’s impossible to predict which action will you take using a model that’s significantly less complex than your brain. So any model that is capable of predicting your actions will inevitably contain a copy of you inside it. I am the author of my actions to the extent that in order to change my choices you would also have to essentially change who I am on the deepest level. A murderer has free will because if you adjusted something inside him to prevent him from committing his crime you would have to adjust it so far that the result would be, in some essential sense, not him any more. This also explains how some actions that we take are not free, like my knee-jerk reaction when someone hits a nerve under my kneecap. If someone were to rewire my body in order for me not to have this reaction, I would still consider that I am fundamentally the same person as before, therefore that reaction need not be considered a result of free will. Your confusion comes from believing that free will must come from some tiny man inside your head being free to do whatever he wants regardless of the laws of cause and effect, but that’s simply not how free will works in the first place. It’s the entire system that has free will, not any particular part of it.

      • #121938
        Anonymous
        Guest

        so your definition of free will is basically computational irreducibility, which is strict determinism. Interesting.

    • #121915
      Anonymous
      Guest

      The decisions I make are my own.
      I have free will. Simple as.

      Now return to LULZ

    • #121973
      Anonymous
      Guest

      […]

      >delusional people with brain damage exist
      >i don’t know of any evidence for my personal, unspecified notion of "free will"
      >therefore delusional people disprove free will
      You have a mental illness.

      • #121980
        Anonymous
        Guest

        > People with damage to the brain that tells the healthy parts of the brain that they are blind is no functioning
        >Healthy parts of the brain unaware that they are blind as they aren’t receive the replvent data
        > Healthy parts of brain make up excuses why they can’t answer questions that require sight to answer

        Therefore

        >Those same areas of the brain in people without brain damage also come up with dillusions
        >Those parts of the brain are unable to receive and comprehend all the data and factors that influenced a decision, because it is impossible even in healthy brains, there is just too much information
        >Therefore the brain makes up delusion as to why it came to a decision
        >Delusion such as free will

        I’m struggling to understand what exactly your not getting about that

        • #121981
          Anonymous
          Guest

          >healthy parts of the brain
          >damaged parts of the brain
          Invalid.

          >

        • #121984
          Anonymous
          Guest

          >delusional people with brain damage exist, therefore things i disagree with are delusions
          Not a logical conclusion. Sorry. You are clearly mentally deficient.

          • #121990
            Anonymous
            Guest

            No your an idiot it’s very clear
            >If the brain does not received the data needed to come to the correct conclusion, it makes one up
            >Your brain like everyone else’s is incapable of recieving all the data regarding every factor that affects a particular decision, therefore it’s incapable of coming to the correct conclusion as to why it made that decision

            • #121992
              Anonymous
              Guest

              >If the brain does not received the data needed to come to the correct conclusion, it makes one up
              That’s neither a logical conclusion, nor one that is supported by empirical evidence: there’s a fuckton of things that my brain is not receiving any data on, and I simply recognize that I have no data on them. You are mentally deficient.

              • #121996
                Anonymous
                Guest

                The empirical evidence is from the study of those with Anton syndrome, what are you not getting, the best way to determine how the brain works is by studying those with brain damage, the argument oh they have brain damage there none of the data is relevant is a stupid one, it’s about understanding what has gone wrong and why and then relating that to healthy brains

                • #122006
                  Anonymous
                  Guest

                  >The empirical evidence is from the study of those with Anton syndrome
                  It’s empirical evidence that some people with brain damage begin to suffer from delusions. It’s certainly not empirical evidence for the mentally ill idea that if a normal brain has no data on something, it will hallucinate it.

                  • #122007
                    Anonymous
                    Guest

                    yes it does because the part of the brain making up the delusion isnt damaged, it simply isnt recieving all the data

                    • #122009
                      Anonymous
                      Guest

                      >the part of the brain making up the delusion isnt damaged
                      Even if this dubious claim were true, it would signify, at most, that parts of the brain may start hallucinating data if you cut them off from the constant flow of data they’re designed to process, which limits the validity of your speculations to cases involving some kind of brain damage.

            • #122005
              Anonymous
              Guest

              >If the brain does not received the data needed to come to the correct conclusion, it makes one up
              Literally sounds like GPT-3’s attempt at self-reflection. Are you sure you’re human?

              • #122012
                Anonymous
                Guest

                https://youtu.be/lfGwsAdS9Dc

                educate yourself scrote, the brain actually makes up and believes most of what you think you know

                • #122015
                  Anonymous
                  Guest

                  >the brain actually makes up and believes most of what you think you know
                  I’m sure that applies to deluded nonhumans like you.

                  • #122022
                    Anonymous
                    Guest

                    cope: the post

                    • #122025
                      Anonymous
                      Guest

                      You’re literally just projecting your lack of self-reflection onto normal people, woke af on videos from the 70s about people with literal brain damage.

                      • #122048
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >woke af on videos from the 70s about people with literal brain damage.
                        its a study of a patient who had brain surgery to stop seizures. Without the halves of his brain being able to communicate he is still able to function perfectly fine. However if the brain is arbitrarily forced to work one half at a time, the guy literally see or thinks things without having a clue as to why he has those thoughts, and instead comes up with a good enough reason.

                        If science is too hard for you, I recommend trying a different website

                      • #122049
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >Without the halves of his brain being able to communicate
                        Yes, that’s brain damage.

                        >the guy literally see or thinks things without having a clue as to why he has those thoughts
                        May or may not be a consequence of brain damage. Not knowing why you’re having certain thought is normal.

                        >instead comes up with a good enough reason.
                        Brain damage and/or NPC, just like you. What does it have to do with free will?

                      • #122052
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >makes post saying the brain makes stuff up
                        >argues about it
                        >agrees and says the brain makes stuff up
                        its funny being asked by an NPC troll about free will, you’re literally running a method right now in an attempt to garner responses from me. The existence of free will aside, your behavior right now is completely autonomous. you’re likely a child

                      • #122053
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        That’s not even a coherent response…

                      • #122055
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        not a single one of your posts is genuine, have a nice day. for you to disagree

                        >If the brain does not received the data needed to come to the correct conclusion, it makes one up
                        Literally sounds like GPT-3’s attempt at self-reflection. Are you sure you’re human?

                        here and then say >Not knowing why you’re having certain thought is normal. is trolling, plain and simple. You’re a robot trying to get a rise out of me

                      • #122056
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        What does knowing why a certain thought occur, have to do with free will? What does being a dumb NPC like you, who rationalizes his scrotebrained "thoughts", have to do with free will, and what does it have to do with how intelligent, reflective people behave?

    • #121988
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Everyone in this thread is scrotebrained. Of course we have free will, you just have to believe yourselves and harness the power inside.

    • #122017
      Anonymous
      Guest

      >redefine free will in a way that requires something physically impossible
      >conclude that free will doesn’t exist
      Free will is the ability to make conscious choices woke af on reasoning.

    • #122019
      Anonymous
      Guest

      right now I used my free will and rejected the need of going to the toilet
      I may shit my pants but my free will will not be broken

      • #122050
        Anonymous
        Guest

        Hahah go poop anon, the clean up is much easier trust

    • #122027
      Anonymous
      Guest

      I assume if free will exists, it’s probably the same amount of freedom trains do. Sure you can’t go anywhere, but at the very least you can be on time.

    • #122043
      Anonymous
      Guest

      >be soulless determinitard
      >start yet another thread seething about "free will"
      >regurgitate the same talking points refuting the same strawman yet again
      Why are they like this? Why can’t they let it go?

    • #122051
      Anonymous
      Guest

      >So where does free will get created?
      It doesn’t, but I’m not convinced its a good idea to tell everybody that

    • #122057
      Anonymous
      Guest

      If by free will, you mean that the laws of physics don’t completely determine your decisions, then clearly such a free will can’t exist.

    • #122064
      Anonymous
      Guest

      "Free will" is the excuse society tells itself to justify systematic eugenics.

      • #122083
        Anonymous
        Guest

        >"Free will" is the excuse society tells itself to justify systematic eugenics.
        WTF? I love free will now.

    • #122067
      Anonymous
      Guest

      >(You)

      A code word for spooky alien ghost trapped inside the skeleton cage that is not limited by physics and cannot be detected my machines

    • #122086
      Anonymous
      Guest

      I chose to have lasagne yesterday, checkmate scrotebrain

    • #122089
      Anonymous
      Guest

      quantitatively free will does not exist

    • #122092
      Anonymous
      Guest

      >>what do you want for dinner?
      >let’s have lobster
      >>it’s out of season
      >let’s have swordish
      >>it’s too expensive
      >let’s have steak
      >>I ate steak yesterday
      >let’s have chicken
      >>I don’t like chicken
      >let’s have chinese food
      >>too greasy
      >let’s have mexican
      >>too spicy
      >[repeat ad nauseum]
      >let’s have chicken
      >>fine
      sure sounds like free will to me

    • #122095
      Anonymous
      Guest

      This thread is the reason why LULZ is a 1000x more intelligent than this board.

    • #122098
      Anonymous
      Guest

      >Emotions tell you to act a certain way.
      >DECIDE to do the complete opposite.
      Do you need depression to think free will doesn’t exist?

    • #122102
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Your capacity to know more (intellectual sophistication) draws you closer to the Good

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