Is college outdated or is its existence still justified?

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    • #55443
      Anonymous
      Guest

      It seems like college makes little sense. Some say college is all about education, but if thats so, people could easily learn everything just on their own. Its not as if we are in the past where books are incredibly expensive and so attending lectures is the only way to learn something.

      Others say that education is about job signaling. If so, its a waste of time and money. Instead of 4 years of mild difficulty, it could easily be changed to where it is one year of incredibly stressful course work similar to the 1st year of law school.

      But when it comes to education it seems to me that college serves little purpose at all. For a bachelors degree level of education, this is very easy to replicate on your own. All the textbooks area available for sale that the university uses and so the vast majority of the information a student would learn in college can just be learned from buying the textbooks.

      Some may say that labs are not able to be replicated, but with covid, schools have switched to doing online labs. So its quite obvious that actually being in the lab isnt really all that important if colleges are giving credit for online labs.

      Writing papers might be something that is thought to not be able to be replicated. But I disagree. While you wont get any feedback on writing on your own, if you read enough, you will learn how to write properly by the style of what you read. Which is really how most people learn how to write properly and is how I learned how to write law briefs. While I had some time where my professor would tell me what to do right, it was reading other cases and briefs that I learned how to write a good brief. So I dont think that you will be stuck at a preschool level of writing if you never get any professional feedback.

      Another thing, grad school, is this something that cannot be replicated on your own? Ive not gotten a phd before so I dont know exactly what it is like, but from what Ive heard, most people consider it hard because you have to do all of your work on your own. Its not like you have a bunch of classes you have to pass, but you have to work on your thesis on your own for a few years or so. To me it sounds like a project that you do under limited supervision and so this could be done on your own pretty easily. You just wouldnt have anyone tell you if your project is any good once youve finished.

      So, what do you think, is college just something that we have to stick with based on how society is structured, or is there something that college offers that justifies its price.

    • #55445
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Maybe school is correct but the goverment is shitty/. Then thy. Just obey.

    • #55446
      Anonymous
      Guest

      its crap, civilization was a mistake

    • #55447
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Yes, modern college is nothing more than money laundering and Marxist propaganda centers. imho

      • #55509
        Anonymous
        Guest

        This. At one point in time it could be argued that they were diploma and wagecuck mills but even that isn’t true anymore and has degenerated purely into what you’ve pointed out. Everything I learned during my time as an undergrad was absolute gently caressing bullshit nonsense that I ended up learning on my own but wasted 4 years of my life waiting on everyone else just so I can get a diploma. It turned me off to academia and dreams of grad school research. I ended up chasing money instead. I’ve learned everything I wanted since. University hasn’t been what it was once was at the turn of the 20th century

    • #55448
      Anonymous
      Guest

      It is about signaling, and it is a very inefficient signal. The problem is really that most people forget most of what they learn in college unless they are constantly renewing it. The real value of the degree is that it shows you are smart enough to pass a bunch of tests (including getting a high score on SATs and other admissions requirements). Basically a college degree is only a marginally better signal than tests employers might make themselves for prospective employees. If they were forced to make these tests instead, then everyone would save 4+ years and a lot of money. The reason individual companies don’t implement this policy is that being the lone defector from the current system will attract all the people who are too lazy to get a college degree, and so you’ll end up getting a bunch of smart but lazy applicants who pass your test. But if we could force everyone to defect at once, tests would be much more efficient than college degrees.

      • #55449
        Anonymous
        Guest

        That sounds like what Bryan Caplan says about signaling. That one thing that college signals is not only smarts and work ethic, but also conformity. So a company had a test that didnt need college, they would end up getting a bunch of non conformists.

        • #55451
          Anonymous
          Guest

          Yeah, I haven’t read much of Caplan but I’m broadly sympathetic to his position on this.

          • #55453
            Anonymous
            Guest

            I havent read his book either but Ive listened to him talk about education enough to where I think I understand what he has to say on the topic.

    • #55450
      Anonymous
      Guest

      College is basically an expensive gym membership for your brain. Sure, you could work out in your basement by yourself and theoretically get the same results.

      • #55452
        Anonymous
        Guest

        Imagine paying 50k a year for a gym membership.

        • #55454
          Anonymous
          Guest

          College being expensive is a meme. Community college is nearly free if you use the Pell Grant and most state schools are pretty cheap for residents.

          Kids rack up debt in college because they want the “experience” of going to a private university for the full 4 years AND they do stupid shit like taking $5k courses abroad (Vacations) over the summer.

          • #55455
            Anonymous
            Guest

            Going to a good private school will look better on a resume than a something like Arizona state

            • #55458
              Anonymous
              Guest

              That doesn’t mean that private schools are the only ones worth going to or that secondary education is as expensive as people whinge about. There are dozens of different ways to beat down the costs of education. My favorite thing to do is ask people who bitch about tuition how many scholarship applications they filled out. I always get one of two answers;

              >my GPA is dogshit, i don’t qualify

              Or

              >bro! Like so many applications, I must have filled out like 5!

              • #55459
                Anonymous
                Guest

                >I always ask people on food stamps how many lottery tickets they bought and they would always say that the chances of winning were so low

                you sound like a boomer and I got an academic scholarship so its not like I have a beef with not getting a scholarship

              • #55461
                Anonymous
                Guest

                It means that if you want a better chance at getting a good job, youre better off going to a private school with a good reputation rather than a mediocre state school nobodys heard of

              • #55464
                Anonymous
                Guest

                There are not as many scholarships as there are students. Id like to know the ratio of scholarships to students but it must be pretty bad for undergrads

            • #55511
              Anonymous
              Guest

              Finding a job through ASU’s large alumni network looks good on the ol’ resume too.

          • #55456
            Anonymous
            Guest

            College tuition has risen tremendously. Youve got to be kidding that college is secretly really cheap.

          • #55457
            Anonymous
            Guest

            If you go to community college, that means that if you want to major in physics or engineering, that you will have to pile up your entire schedule with core classes. Thats pretty difficult compared to a more traditional route where you space them out each semester.

            • #55460
              Anonymous
              Guest

              This is another thing that gets me. There is no such thing as graduating “on time”, GPA, school name on your diploma, and professors who can vouch for you is all that matters. Literally no one will care if you took an extra year or two to get through undergrad.

              College tuition has risen tremendously. Youve got to be kidding that college is secretly really cheap.

              M8, if you cheap out, you can get through college in the US for less than the price of a Toyota Camry and no one flips their shit about financing one of those.

              • #55462
                Anonymous
                Guest

                so that would mran having to pay for another year of tuition tho when the goal is to save money
                >M8, if you cheap out, you can get through college in the US for less than the price of a Toyota Camry and no one flips their shit about financing one of those.
                Prove it

                • #55466
                  Anonymous
                  Guest

                  First two years at a CC are less than $1000 w/ Pell Grant. Finish up the last two at your local state school at the in-state rate which, nationally, averages around $10k a year. Camry MSRP is $24k.

                  • #55467
                    Anonymous
                    Guest

                    These are the average tuition rates. That means you have a bunch of shit public in state colleges driving down the average. And like I said before, people care about name brands unless you dont have any ambition in life and are ok with working an average wage slave job.

                    • #55470
                      Anonymous
                      Guest

                      In state tuition costs aren’t reflective of the quality of the school. California state schools are quite good and are less than $10k for in-state. Go look for yourself.

              • #55463
                Anonymous
                Guest

                most people do see taking more time to graduate as a negative. I bet it would likely come up in an interview

                • #55479
                  Anonymous
                  Guest

                  >Why yes, I did take an extra year which I used to full effect. If you look in my resume you will see the extra work, internships, and research I was able to complete

                  I took 5 years and double majored in bio and chem with a minor in math. The last year was mostly math and research projects with an internship and an RnD job. As long as you can tell them why you were taking your time no one will care. They just want to know you didn’t take 6 years to get your sociology degree because daddy pays the bills when you are in school and you didn’t want to go into the real world yet.

                  • #55480
                    Anonymous
                    Guest

                    ya but youre putting in all that extra fluff like internships and research projects to make it sound better. If you take an extra year and just did your course work without anything else, and someone else finished "on time" you prolly will look worse off.

                    • #55481
                      Anonymous
                      Guest

                      If you aren’t doing all sorts of research stuff every year you won’t look good with a 4 year degree either. My GPA was garbage but I got into a great grad program cause of my extra stuff. If you take 5 years to do a 4 year and get straight A’s then tell them "I’d rather do the job right then do it quickly and poorly" that will give you respect.

                      Tl;dr if you aren’t "extra fluff" normally you’re ngmi

                      • #55482
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        I disagree with that. What percentage are doing research as an undergrad? And your experience is not about going into the private sector but grad school, which makes sense why research projects would matter so much

                        And again you have to add that the guy who took an extra year will get straight As rather than being an average student to make it look better than it likely will look for most people

                      • #55483
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        To get into grad school you need undergrad research at this point. I did go into industry during undergrad to do research at a start up. That was more about connections, competency, and interpersonal communication skills than my gpa. If you want to do technical work you have to research the job you apply for and be quick on your feet while showing you have the initiative to do projects on your own. If you are doing industry outside your field then it doesn’t matter anyways.

                        In the end what you put into undergrad is what you get out. If you work hard and try to push your boundaries you will get more knowledge and experience in a lot of fields than is possible without half a decade of focused industry experience. But the thing is that it’s not for everyone, I’d argue it’s not for most people.

                        What I’m saying is that taking extra time to get your degree doesn’t matter if you are putting in consistent effort. If you got normal grades and took 5 years but we’re pulling a 40 hour work week to support your education that tells a prospective employer that you are very dedicated and if given resources can flourish. No matter how long it takes if you are working hard you will be able to show that in your interviews. But if you are a lazy guy just coasting and not doing anything exceptional it won’t matter if it took you 4 or 7 years because you won’t have anything but a piece of paper at the end.

                      • #55487
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >But if you are a lazy guy just coasting and not doing anything exceptional it won’t matter if it took you 4 or 7 years because you won’t have anything but a piece of paper at the end.
                        This is too much imo. That degree makes a huge difference. The difference in having a degree and not a degree is way bigger than having done research projects and internships compared to having done nothing but coursework

                      • #55499
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        You misunderstood I’m saying that there isn’t a difference between a 4 and 7 year degree time. Not that there isn’t any worth in a degree at all. A degree in its own is just a certificate of pain tolerance

          • #55510
            Anonymous
            Guest

            >Community college is nearly free
            Anon you must be kidding. I decided to look up my nearest community college because I wanted to take a class for the simple sake of taking a class and a year’s tuition is $6k. I paid that much per year at my the Top 25 public state school I went to 10 years ago. Give me a gently caressing break.

    • #55465
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Four years of work experience out of highschool will not only give you a salary edge over fresh graduates, but you’ll also be ahead four years wages plus college fees. It’s simply not worth it for most people.

    • #55468
      Anonymous
      Guest

      I had to disable my antivirus just to access my course page, ten different homework pages, and various textbook scam sites.
      I decided to just buy a burner laptop.
      Uni is the biggest gently caressing scam.
      Don’t go unless the career on the other side is really worth it.
      God I hope CS was really worth it.

      • #55469
        Anonymous
        Guest

        >CS
        >worth it
        I dont know man. Thats a career where you dont need a degree to do well at. You dont have to be certified to be a software engineer

        • #55471
          Anonymous
          Guest

          really, cause I’ve been constantly told entirely the exact opposite.
          Could you please elaborate for me?

          • #55472
            Anonymous
            Guest

            software engineering isnt like other engineering fields where the government requires you to be certified, this means that if you can code well, you can do the job.

          • #55474
            Anonymous
            Guest

            Like to be a real electrical engineer, the government requires you to have an engineering degree. This is not the case for software engineering

            • #55477
              Anonymous
              Guest

              >Like to be a real electrical engineer, the government requires you to have an engineering degree
              in the US?

              […]
              Its like being a doctor or a lawyer. You cant just start up a law firm without going to law school and passing the bar. Its kinda the same for engineering but the bar is lower than for lawyers or doctors but there is still that bar.

              >Its like being a doctor or a lawyer. You cant just start up a law firm without going to law school and passing the bar
              I guess that’s true.

              […]
              This makes an engineering degree valuable, because without it, you cannot be an engineer. Meanwhile, people with math and physics degrees constantly apply and get software engineering positions. And people without any degree also can get those jobs.

              So you’re saying I should switch to an engineering major?
              that’ll easy.

              • #55478
                Anonymous
                Guest

                yes in the US

                tbh, CS is a good degree compared to many others you could take when it comes to being practical. Im just saying that you can do the job that CS grads do without the degree. It prolly makes it easier tho with the degree. But when it comes to what degree you should get, you should get a degree that you will enjoy doing, because who knows what you will do as a job when you are older. You might start hating engineering or software work 5 years form graduation and want to do something else. SO you should just major in something you like, because in my opinion, you never know what you will end up doing later in life

                • #55484
                  Anonymous
                  Guest

                  >just major in something you like
                  gently caress off commie hippie

                  • #55485
                    Anonymous
                    Guest

                    If you hate engineering, you shouldnt major in it since you will hate your job. Its kinda simple. Whats the point of getting a degree in something you wont want to do as a job?

                    • #55486
                      Anonymous
                      Guest

                      I like money.
                      it’s kinda simple.

                      • #55488
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        So go to medical school. But most people would like to have a job that they do not hate going to every day. And if you hate something like law or engineering, dont go to school for that because you will be miserable

                      • #55490
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >med school
                        No thanks, kek.
                        I hate Chem and Bio

                      • #55493
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        enjoy your 70k engineer salary then. Unless you feel like becoming a lawyer working in big law

                      • #55494
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        My school’s statistics say that the average salary a CS graduate makes after graduating is between 100 and 120 k.

                      • #55495
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        And you believe that? Schools fudge stats all the time. Let me guess, it consists of people who have "reported" their salaries?

                      • #55496
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        That’s probably true, but my family already has pretty good ins for CS, and nothing else.
                        and my mother told me that my employers would be more understanding about my social anxiety and agoraphobia and permit me to work from home. and if that’s the case I’ll be living in a nice wooden house in northern Washington.
                        I’d prefer to be as far away from people as possible.

                      • #55500
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        ya then you should prolly continue doing cs. I plan on learning to code after law school. I cant stand the thought of being a lawyer

                      • #55501
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        Then why are you in law school?
                        AND yes I will keep doing CS.
                        Even though I’ve already token enough math and Physics classes to be a math major, physics major, and any type of engineer.
                        I did community college during high school so I could spare the credits.
                        I was going to do a CS math double major.
                        But in my real analysis class I called the professor a "un-evolved ape for believing in such a capricious proof without a satisfactory definition"
                        apparently that’s a no no. But, later I was excused for my mental disability, and asked nicely not to do it again, and my mother made me write them back saying I wouldn’t.
                        But, I did anonymously say something about it on his facebook page, embarrassing him in front of his entire social group.
                        No one could possible know it was me.

                      • #55502
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        I graduated from college and was working at a place I didnt like, thought about going back for another degree but then I thought about trying out taking the LSAT to see if I could do well. I ended up preparing for the exam and I did well and I sort of just wound up in law school to where I am one semester away from graduating. Ive never been able to find out what I wanted to do with my life.

                      • #55503
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        have you tried watching anime and masturbation?

                      • #55504
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        I started watching anime last spring.

                      • #55505
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        You learn fast.

                      • #55506
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        Im currently watching legend of the galactic heroes as well as the final season of attack on titan

                      • #55512
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        This is how life goes, generally, anon. I ended up becoming an entrepreneur. I thought I wanted to be a doctor or develop pharmaceuticals when I first started college. Ended up teaching myself how to program one summer in undergrad and now I’m here typing this 10 years later while I train a machine learning algorithm how to make supply chains, transport systems, and logistics frameworks more efficient. If you asked me what a digital twin was when I was still in school I would have guessed and told you it was probably related to VR porn or something. Who woulda thunk?

                        Best of luck to you

              • #55497
                Anonymous
                Guest

                >in the US?
                I have a PE license. You need a legit engineering degree, have to pass 2 exams, need 5 references, and 4 years of documented experience in the field.

                It’s worth it.

    • #55489
      Anonymous
      Guest

      College is not about education. It is not hard to get a degree without learning shit (STEM included). At most a degree represents your capacity for basic learning skills related to investigation and problem solving. If you really want to learn, just sit your ass down in a library.
      Job signaling is related, but not directly. Employers aren’t completely stupid, they know graduates haven’t learned shit. College is like a job simulator. You punch in going to lectures, pay attention to the meeting, head out to work on assignments, clock out at the end of the day to relax, and come back later to turn your work in for evaluation. This experience replicates white collar work environment. I you cannot manage to deal with a couple years of it while your hand is being held, how could you possibly keep up in a regular workplace? It is certainly possible to gain this experience on the job, but that is just a crapshoot for employers.
      More than anything is an opportunity in honing soft skills. It is one of your few opportunities to engage in a critically constructive atmosphere with low stakes. More beneficial than the gains from the direct requirements of the institution, are the indirect gains from the community those requirements attempt to foster. By engaging in academia, the student adopts broader horizons and becomes a more flexible individual than would be achieved in industry alone.
      IMO, college is wholly justified; though not quite to the de facto standard it has become in the US. The training and information most relevant to jobs could be compressed to a 2 year plan. Four year degrees are an archaic hold over that are only useful for rich boys and academics.

      • #55491
        Anonymous
        Guest

        (2)
        Grad school is another can of worms entirely, and is where I start talking out of my ass. For most fields, a masters degree is just a BS symptom of education inflation and is unnecessary. For very select subfields of STEM a masters degree demonstrates that you have a brain and possess passing knowledge of something. Really a masters degree exists as a transitionary step towards a phd. At the end of the day colleges exist to create doctorates and give them a work environment. A doctorate is meant to illustrate that you are capable of actually using the brain that showed up during the masters degree. Hence, most of your work during a phd must be on your own. (This varies by field). However, to prove you know what you are doing, tabs are kept on you and your work finally reviewed by people that already know how to think. This peer review is what allows you to become part of academia.

      • #55492
        Anonymous
        Guest

        >ore beneficial than the gains from the direct requirements of the institution, are the indirect gains from the community those requirements attempt to foster. By engaging in academia, the student adopts broader horizons and becomes a more flexible individual than would be achieved in industry alone.
        Is there any proof college does this?

        • #55498
          Anonymous
          Guest

          I do not have any research based evidence for that.
          But, I will expound my argument. In the average non degree job, how much critical analysis, open discussion, and breadth of topics are introduced/required to/from an employee?
          If we allow the assumption that thinking and analyzing diverse topics is a skill, then it follows that college graduates have a great advantage in this regard. I suspect there should be some form of neuro-science or teaching pedagogy research that would align with that assumption; though I will claim no familiarity with it.

    • #55507
      Anonymous
      Guest

      We need to debloat university by decoupling undergrad from grads/phds and make a baby faux-uni that is well suited to undergrad material. This uni will not have professors teaching as they will be doing what they actually like: researching and teaching students that know what the gently caress they are doing.

      • #55513
        Anonymous
        Guest

        PUI’s exist dude. Just nobody funds them unless they are mega fancy.

    • #55508
      Anonymous
      Guest

      70-80% of people currently going to college do not belong there. The value of a BA has plummeted to virtually being meaningless. Only 10-15% of the population should be going to uni

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