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How did the Ottoman Empire dominate the Balkans for so long?
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>Balkans
the most undesirable lands-
What ever drugs you are doing… I never want to try them or be around people experimenting with them.
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The strong shall dominate the weak
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The same way they managed to conquer them in the first place, by pitting their enemies against each other so they wouldn’t unite in opposition against the Ottoman Empire.
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It took the Ottomans 220 years to subjugate a peninsula mired in the fall-out of three imperial states, that of Greeks, Serbs, and Bulgarians, and then, their conquest was not complete, since Montenegro and Hapsburg Croatia resisted them.
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Are you from Zena?
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Global taunt that agitates lesser men and makes the seething more virulent.
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He’s a self-important wanker as you can see here:
Global taunt that agitates lesser men and makes the seething more virulent.
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We’re taller than you fuckers at least give us that
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Fool, we are nothing to this fine warrior-poet birthed from the loins of Pakistani rat-women Muslima.
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Seeing how you two are still going at it, I’ll just give my two cents. The Serbs did migrate in vast numbers to Austria as they were able to change the demographics in the border regions and the ottomans ruled because they made the Balkans their priority. Everywhere that was farther away or inaccessible was ruled over by bandits and warlords especially in the 1700s. If the ottomans were as just as what turk had claimed there would be a lot less christians in the Balkans today
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Lol their still going at it god bless you svetovid for defending serbias honor against LULZ siss
Id agree, Bosnia was a majority orthodox around the 19th to early 20th century. It wasnt in the medieval times, which suggets a large amount of orthodox people migrating, who would be serbs and vlaches.
Also the fact they compromised a large amount of Vojvodina suggests this, Vojvodina was never historically under Serbs in medieval times, but was a crossroad for a while from the ottomans to hungary or austria, makes sense why lots of serbs moved their.
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> Vojvodina
But this was also in the Ottoman Empire for almost 200 years. Also, a population could have moved there in the ottoman period, as they sometimes did.-
Thats fair, it would probably be a mix of both factors depending on the timeframe and what land the ottomans owned
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The only evidence for this move is the letters saying about 3000 nobles and “dependents” moved, and the current existence of Serbs in Croatia and Hungary. Problem is that Hungary and Croatia were ottoman for 150 years and this section of Hungary for 200 years.
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>The hussars reportedly originated in bands of mostly Serb warriors,[8] crossing into southern Hungary after the Ottoman conquest of Serbia in the late 14th century
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That’s bullshit. The hussars are woke af on a Turco-Tatar style of light cavalry warfare that Magyars already practiced.
Also Serbs adopted Turkish culture wholesale. From food to everything else. The rest of their culture is woke af on AH or.
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>wholesale
scrotebrain -
Yes they did. They are Christian Turks. Good for them.
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You don’t like the Ottoman Empire and wish they hadn’t conquered you? Then give back the food and stop eating it. Go back to your shitty medieval diet.
cevapi, aka kebabi
>inb4 anyone could have cooked bread and meat
Then why didn’t they Dumbass, they don’t eat this food with this flavor in Normandy or Norway or Spain or Hamburg
>culture = cuisine
You don’t have to remind people 24/7 that you live in shitholes with no education.I am not from the balkans, I read this thread with contempt, albeit turdroaches are the worst as always.
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It’s not just cuisine but the cuisine is something people do every day, 365, nonstop. They are practicing Turkish culture in this way, and in many other ways.
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Like in what? Religion? Slavic identity? Worldview?
Your food is good but you were and are a burden, roach. -
>Religion
Quite explicitly created by Ottoman Turks like Sokollu Pasha
>Worldview
Yes
>Slavic identity
The Russian 25%, and a meme in the 19th c— an extension of Russian imperialism.>burden
What’s the burden? Your streets use Turkish words. Half of Belgrade has some Turkish name. Turks build factories in your country that nobody will touch. You are welcome to go back to eating European Christian gruel and stop eating Muslim Turk kebab. -
I already told you I am not from the balkans. I am actually from a country with better food than yours, albeit yours is good and I LOVE your coffee almost as much as mine.
I gave away too much I guess.
Sokollu Pasha RESTORED did not create.
> Worldview
No.
>an extension of Russian imperialism
I find ironic that you are unable to see your own projections. -
Italy.
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OF COURSH (not in italy atm)
I go to bed, I will read the rest tomm -
>projections
Serbs ARE ottoman people, living in the Ottoman Empire for longer than people from my hometown of Turkey(Kayseri) did.They never were in the Russian empire and only Russian imperial propaganda in the 19th c designed to brainwash them to rebel… is the basis of this pan slavicist cope identity.
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Don’t mix up your justified doubts about pan-slavism with slavic identity. There is an overlap but is far from being 100%
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Identifying as Slavs is a cope. It is a 19th c insane nationalist thing. The same reason Serbs caused WW1 for no good reason. It is also 100% Russian propaganda. Like Soviets or Americans pushing their worldview, Russians did the same in the period. They thought all of Slavs should be one country (called Russia) and start wars to make it happen. Because… um… reasons.
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If Serbs gave a shit about Slavic identity versus Russian pan Slavic propaganda, they would celebrate Ottoman Serbs and convert to Islam to make life easier with other Slavs who are Muslims.
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> Sokollu Pasha RESTORED did not create.
No he created and it is being presented as some favor he did because he loved Serbs so much lol. He basically infiltrated the Serbian church with ottoman agents. Keeping Serbs loyal from 1540s to 1815. -
You don’t like the Ottoman Empire and wish they hadn’t conquered you? Then give back the food and stop eating it. Go back to your shitty medieval diet.
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Those are Syrian food lol.
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No you eat them in Syria too because you were ruled by Turks from the 10th c until 20th c
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I don’t think you understand how ottoman really ruled. In Syria we have more footprints of the Romans, turks and ummyads than turks. The ottoman just made a united state which made adapting other regions cuisines and such easier.
In Lebanon and Algeria you will find people talking French fluently but no one in the Levant knows a turkish.
The cuisines aren’t turkish. They most likely originated in the Levant region and got famous. A Lebanese dish that was made under the French rule is still Lebanese and not French.
you need to actually prove that these cuisines were made by turkish people and just got adapted by other regions under ottoman rule -
Meant of Romans, byzantines not turks
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> In Lebanon and Algeria you will find people talking French fluently but no one in the Levant knows a turkish.
Your first five presidents were Turks. Your country is 10-25% Turkish. Same with all of the Arab countries.Seljuks+Ottomans=1000 years of rule.
Not everyone in Lebanon speaks Fr*g either, it’s just rich Christians. You don’t eat Levantine foods. You eat Turkish foods. We have records of pre Turkish levant food.
Maybe Künefe but that’s a maybe and only that.
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Turks were essentially the peasant class and confined to the easternmost part of the empire. Obviously, a portion of the ruling class, mainly the lower administrative clerks, were of Turkish origin, but the majority of the administrative functions were run by non-Turks and even non-Muslims. This means that law, tax and Janissary executive orders were all created and drafted by men of South Slavic and Albanian origin and merely signed by the sultan. All modern scholars of the Ottoman Empire (At least those who aren’t on Turkey’s immediate payroll) agree that prior to the final Russo-Turkish war, the Ottomans have never defined or identified themselves as “Turks”. Even the majority of Otto. Sultans sought to reserve themselves away from the Turkish identity. The only reason you hear the Ottomans being referred to as “Turks” prior to the beginning of WW1 is because the British and the French used it as an umbrella term to refer to all Muslim caliphates/khanates around the Levant, and sometimes even erroneously referring to Arabs or Mamluks as Turks. But not to digress, one just needs to read the most important texts about administrative communication, or about which languages were spoken on the Sultan’ court. Turkish was almost never used, while Serb, Persian and Greek languages were always used, even Arabic was more common before the Nationalist uprising. Turkey is a civic nation-state created by British and the French, to guarantee a weakness in Anatolia so that Saudi Arabia, a chief proxy of Western interests, may fully reap the profits of oil exploitation. And the reason we eat the same food, which in reality, is just popular street food, and is of Anatolian Greek and Persian origin, is because of the Ottoman Empire, not the neologism of "Turkish culture", since the Ottomans were a Arabo-Persian Muslim super-state, not a Turkic Khaganate, 88% of Otto. Turkish vocabulary was of non-Turkish origin, learn your place, Esek-Turk.
Svetovid sends his regards -
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Also Künefe as currently made is a Turkish style and invention too
> In the later Middle Ages, a new technique was created, with thin batter being dripped onto the metal sheet from a perforated container, creating hair-like strings. A mid-15th century Ottoman Turkish translation of Muhammad bin Hasan al-Baghdadi’s Kitab al-Tabikh added several new contemporary recipes, including one for this kadayif, though it does not specify where it originated.[31] This became the basis for the modern kunafa/kanafeh. It is fried together with butter and fillings or toppings such as nuts, sweetened cheese, or clotted cream, and mixed with rosewater and sugar. The pastry spread from the Arab lands to neighboring countries including Iran and Greece, and to Turkey where the string pastry itself is known as tel kadayıf ("string crêpes"), also used in related pastries such as dolma kadayif.[1]
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>Algeria
25% of Algeria is Turkish. Including most of their elites and independence leaders. -
> In Syria we have more footprints of the Romans, turks and ummyads than turks
That’s propaganda, encouraged by the Ba’ath party and the Europeans. -
Anything not Turkish in their culture is their emulation of Austria or Russia. Simple as, 75% Turkish, 25% Austrian/Russian.
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>Balkans are a relatively developed, densely populated region with state not very different from those in other part of Europe in terms of power and prestige
>get conquered and turned into completely irrelevant areas
>Ottomans do almost nothing with all that land and resources
>becomes laughing stock of Europe to the point "Balkan" is used as an insultIf I was a Turkish nationalist I would be embarrassed by this.
Ottomans had a reverse Midas touch>Also Serbs adopted Turkish culture wholesale.
Looking at the result that does not seem like a positive. -
>Ottomans had a reverse Midas touch
This is valid also for many arab countries.
Disregarding the people that got genocided or are going to be genocided again like the Armenians. -
It was your genius move to rebel, join Russia’s crazy schemes, start ww1, get desolated, then join ww2, get desolated, and then join communists, get desolated.
I guess children should be allowed to make mistakes but still.
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>It was your genius move to rebel, join Russia’s crazy schemes, start ww1, get desolated, then join ww2, get desolated, and then join communists, get desolated.
>your
I’m no Serb or South Slav.
Very dishonest to use post-Ottoman events to misdirect
You can just compare those countries to the rest of Europe as they were in the 19th century, before or immediately after gaining independence .Compare for example Hungary under Habsburg rule with Bulgaria under Ottoman rule in 1870 if you want. The point still stand.
Both were powerful and kingdoms before the Ottomans/Asutrians. After being conquered by different empires the gap between them became enormous -
> Very dishonest to use post-Ottoman events to misdirect
You can just compare those countries to the rest of Europe as they were in the 19th century, before or immediately after gaining independence .
What? You scrotebrains claims: muh Balkans are poor in 2021 because of the Ottomab empire, never mind, Austrian and Russian mismanagement, two world wars, and communism.Are you seriously mentally ill?
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>muh Balkans are poor in 2021 because of the Ottomab empire, never mind
Never even said that, look at the postIf I was a Turkish nationalist I would be embarrassed by this.
Ottomans had a reverse Midas touch>Also Serbs adopted Turkish culture wholesale.
Looking at the result that does not seem like a positive.Also
>Austrian and Russian mismanagement, two world wars, and communism.
Balkans were poor at shitty before. Like I already said you can just ignore all the post-Ottoman history, and the Ottoman period still looks bad even comparing to that exact period.Yes, in 1913, after they desperately tried to make up for the lost time and catch up with other European nations.
I hope you’re not going to seriously deny that Bulgaria was far worse in 1878 than Hungary was. -
> Balkans were poor at shitty before. Like I already said you can just ignore all the post-Ottoman history, and the Ottoman period still looks bad even comparing to that exact period.
What evidence do yon have? -
>Compare for example Hungary under Habsburg rule with Bulgaria under Ottoman rule in 1870 if you want. The point still stand.
>Both were powerful and kingdoms before the Ottomans/Asutrians. After being conquered by different empires the gap between them became enormous
What? Bulgaria in 1913 was like a great power and an extremely powerful state. -
> Very dishonest to use post-Ottoman events to misdirect
You can just compare those countries to the rest of Europe as they were in the 19th century, before or immediately after gaining independence .
Let me be clear. The Balkans were not a shithole when the Ottoman Empire ruled them. They are a shithole today because scrotebrained balkan imbeciles defied the Ottoman Empire to become playthings of European imperialists and allow Europeans to exploit them in every way imaginable including by divide and conquer, while blaming the ottomans for every conceivable problem, for centuries now. -
>The Balkans were not a shithole when the Ottoman Empire ruled them.
Yes, they were, how could one even deny this.
Just looking at the mid 19th century
>extremely rural, with fewer and smaller cities
>very low literacy
>very few or no universities
>very little industry
>very few railways
Compare these lands with Austro-Hungary around the same time and the differences are enormous>They are a shithole today because scrotebrained balkan imbeciles defied the Ottoman Empire to become playthings of European imperialists and allow Europeans to exploit them in every way imaginable including by divide and conquer,
How can you even blame these nations for simply wanting to exists?
Bulgaria didn’t even exist under Ottoman administration as a state of its own. They had to be created under foreign pressure.
Why would they obey the Ottomans? It simply wasn’t in their interests
What was the alternative?
Assuming any of the Balkan nations supported the Ottomans like you demand they would just end up slaughtered by the Russians and Austrians as Ottoman collaborators.Not denying the Balkans aren’t shitholes now also because of post-Ottoman mistakes but it’s beyond insane to claim the Ottomans somehow deserve any credit for anything.
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>extremely rural, with fewer and smaller cities
>very low literacy
>very few or no universities
>very little industry
>very few railways
Yeah so like 99% of the world except for Vienna, Prague, one valley in Germany, a few cities in England, and Paris.Also the Ottomans were industrializing and changing things, which is why the lazy westoids decided to foment glowie revolts
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> How can you even blame these nations for simply wanting to exists?
I wouldn’t but they were allowed to exist in the Ottoman Empire as unique nations. That’s why they were still Serb or Bulgarian speaking (although all of them also spoke Turkish) despite 700 years of ottoman rule. That was by design, not because ottomans failed to oppress them. scrotebrain.
> Bulgaria didn’t even exist under Ottoman administration as a state of its own. They had to be created under foreign pressure.
Yeah? It was created as a Russian puppet by foreign imperialists.
> What was the alternative?
Staying loyal to the country they were peacefully a part of for 400+ years and not sucking foreign cock
> Assuming any of the Balkan nations supported the Ottomans like you demand they would just end up slaughtered by the Russians and Austrians as Ottoman collaborators.
What???? They would stay and benefit from ottoman oil discoveries in the next century (Saudi Arabia+Iraq+Azerbaijan+Kuwait+UAE) and become the richest country on earth. -
> Not denying the Balkans aren’t shitholes now also because of post-Ottoman mistakes but it’s beyond insane to claim the Ottomans somehow deserve any credit for anything.
Ottomans are the only reason their countries survived and didn’t become assimilated into some meme medieval identity. Go ask the dozens of unique nations in what is now France what happened to them. Ottomans only helped them and never hurt them. Ungrateful scum deserved everything that came their way, karma, right? -
Yes some crossed over, fought for Hungary; lost and got conquered again. Not a huge population maybe 30,000 tops, if we assume 10 dependents per 3,000 nobles. This was about the size until the 19th-20th century when they exploded to 100,000 like any other population. The claim that they were 100,000 in 1459 is crazy. It’s wrong.
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Also the winged hussars are literally a copy of Turkish Deli regiments.
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o-osman b-bulls…
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Note that it did it with minimal resources and while being grossly outnumbered, and it did so as the lengthiest uninterrupted single power in history to hold that land, 500-700 years.
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By the time the Ottomans took Adrianople, they spanned over most of Anatolia, one of the most densely populated parts of the world at the time, and the conquest of the peninsula included hundreds of thousands of men on both sides just in the case of Serbo-Ottoman wars, let alone the rest of them, and Ottoman rule lasted for, at best, 450 years.
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No. They only held the upper northwest corner.
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They held the majority of Anatolia (and not just that, but nearly all of the SE Europe’s East) by the time they’ve started threatening Moravian Serbia, meaning the late 14th century.
Also, the rest of your post is straight up lies. They lasted 700 years, and they routinely defeated their enemies despite being outnumbered 50 to 1.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_MaritsaThey lasted for 452 years, not 700, and accusing me of lying, while persistently lying is beyond stupid, even by MENA standards.
>and they routinely defeated their enemies despite being outnumbered 50 to 1.
At Maritza, which is the only battle where they were vastly outnumbered, they burned thousands of men alive in their sleep, whereas in other battles, like Plocnik, Bileca, where they’ve outnumbered their enemies, they were soundly defeated.-
Why do you cope? They clearly didn’t have most of Anatolia until the 1420s. In fact half of their 1453-Anatolian gains were from 1450-1452.
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>stating facts is coping
By the end closing decades of the 14th century, most of Anatolia was theirs, not even Turkish nationalist revisionists like Danishmend deny it, so what is your stake in it?The Ottomans quite literally waged a 130-years long war with Medieval Serbia alone, what you’re referring to are mere feudal territories governed by nobles who sought to undermine the authority of their rulers. You could potentially make a massive leap in logic and make such a claim for Stephen Lazarevic, but even he was vassalized at first, his younger siss and sisters were seized as hostages, thus the reason why he fought at Nicopolis and Ankara, after the latter battle, he revoked his status, and ruled the Serbian Despotate as a sovereign ruler.
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This is simply not true. Most of Anatolia was not Ottoman until the 1420s. Ottomans took most of the south Balkans before they took Anatolia. Selanik/Edirne/Kosovo conquest are before the Ankara conquest.
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Dont forget they lost their Anatolian holdings due to Timur sticking his dick into their eyesocket
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Yes that’s a good point. The ottomans suffered a catastrophic setback that would have ended most empires right then and there, and instead, they bounce back stronger than ever 10 years later. They only really went after Anatolia after the Battle of Ankara and subsequent Interregum.
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OMG this EMIR TIMUR
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Most of Anatolia was already Ottoman-ruled by the beginning of the 15th century, whereas the majority of Southeastern Europe would be seized right before, and after the Varna Crusade, and Kosovo was still part of the Despotate of Serbia right up until it was conquered in 1459, the first Ottoman census for Kosovo occurs only in the later stages of the 15th century, not before.
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Battle of Ankara (1402)
The battle began with a large-scale attack from the Ottomans, countered by swarms of arrows from the Timurid horse archers. Several thousand were killed and many surrendered to Timur. Stefan Lazarević and his knights together with Wallachian forces successfully fought off the Timurid assaults and cut through the Mongol ranks three times. Each time Stefan advised Bayezid to break out with him, Bayezid declined to do so. But the Serbians managed to save one of Bayezid’s sons and the treasury from the Mongols and made their way to Constantinople. The Serbian troops wore heavy black plate armour which was very effective against the Timurid arrows. Timur admired the Serbian troops who according to him "fight like lions". During the battle the main water supply of both armies, Çubuk creek, was diverted to an off-stream reservoir near the town of Çubuk by Timur, which left the Ottoman army with no water. The final battle took place at Catal hill, dominating the Çubuk valley. The Ottoman army, both thirsty and tired, was defeated, though Bayezid managed to escape to the nearby mountains with a few hundred horsemen. However, Timur had the mountains surrounded and, heavily outnumbering Bayezid, soon captured him. He died in captivity three months later. Already heavily outnumbered, the Ottoman army was further weakened by the desertion of the Black Tatars and the Sipahis from the Anatolian beyliks, who left Bayezid’s side and joined Timur’s forces.[16]
Thanks Serbia.
Also why are you so insistent on your wrong POV? It is a verifiable fact that Edirne/Selanik/Kosovo conquests predate Ankara conquest.
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>It is a verifiable fact that Edirne/Selanik/Kosovo conquests predate Ankara conquest
Kosovo was the integral territory of the Serbian Despotate and even survived as part of the Serbian Despotate up until its conquest in 1459.>you so insistent on your wrong POV
My point of view is woke af on European, Serbian, and even primary POV, I’ve no idea how Turks interpret it.>thanks Serbia.
Indeed. -
> even primary POV
Did you have a dream telling you that the Ottomans conquered Anatolia before the Balkans? -
I’ve said that the Ottomans have conquered the majority of Anatolia by the time they’ve started threatening Moravian Serbia, and then the Serbian Despotate (closing decades of the 14th century), whereas you’ve said that Kosovo was seized by the Ottomans before Ankara, which is grossly inaccurate since Kosovo was conquered in 1459, or a few years earlier, but definitely long after Ankara was conquered. If it weren’t for Timur’s invasion, the Ottoman conquest of Anatolia would’ve been finalized even sooner.
And I only dream of fat asses on tight waists.
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The battle of Kosovo, the conquest of Kosovo and the vassalizaiton of Serbia is 1389. Sometimes the Serbians don’t act in accordance with their vassal pledge, and this causes a few subsequent interventions.
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??? Stephen Lazarevic revoked his status of a vassal in 1402, and ruled from there on as a sovereign, independent ruler, even the Ottomans had to abide by it, his successors would also rule Serbia as an independent state, which would be re-vassalized by the Ottomans only in 1453, and again, Kosovo was part of the Despotate of Serbia when it was conquered in 1459, it was conquered by the Ottomans in 1389.
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They were vassals in 1389, and a part of the Ottoman Empire.
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The first vassalization lasted 15 years (from 1389 to 1402), the second one lasted for 6 years, from 1453 to 1459, that’s 21 years in total, and not even consecutively, in between massive Ottoman losses to outnumbered Serbian armies.
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After 1402, the Serbian ruler sought a title from the Byzantines and was granted “Despot” which he took to be an independent power. There was a civil war then ongoing in the Ottoman Empire. In 1404 he vassalized himself to the Hungarian king. In 1409 he became an Ottoman vassal again, to Prince Suleiman, and in 1410 allied with Prince Musa against Suleiman, but lost, having his siss executed. In 1414, Prince Musa defeated Suleiman and sought to vassalize Serbia but didn’t because Serbia invited Prince Mehmet to attack Musa and backed him. Mehmet and Serbia attacked Musa together and Musa was killed. Mehmet let Serbia be as an autonomous vassal for the next 12 years.
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He was never a Hungarian vassal but was granted estates in Hungary in return for turning his southern border into an anti-Ottoman frontier, Serbia had the largest flatland fortress in Europe, specifically built to combat the Ottomans, which refutes your revisionism in regards to Serbia’s status.
>Mehmet let Serbia be an autonomous vassal for the next 12 years.
Delusional, Mehmet was neither in the position to invade Serbia, let alone dictate its status and Stephen literally made sure that whoever takes the Ottoman throne will be weak to wage war against Serbia, this is the mainstream interpretation of Serbia’s involvement in that Ottoman interregnum.You’re not fooling anyone, what you’re stating is laughable revisionism.
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> You’re not fooling anyone, what you’re stating is laughable revisionism.
Serbia was a vassal from 1389 to 1459, when it became a Province— fully administered and incorporated. It was sometimes an unreliable vassal and sometimes downright rebellious. -
Serbia was a vassal for only 21 years, which were not even consecutive, what I’ve said is factual, what you’ve said is revisionism.
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> revisionism
Revising what? The orthodox view of the Serbian Academy of Sciences? -
Mainstream and Serbian historiography states what I’m stating, Anatolian Turkish historiography is a shitshow of revisionism, you’ve demonstrated that thoroughly.
t. has no grasp of history, and the Serbian Despotate was the most centralized state after Dusan’s reign of the Serbian Empire.
>Most peasants probably preferred Ottoman rule
the territories of Medieval Serbia were so depopulated by war and the utter refusal of the majority of Serbs to live under the Ottoman rule that the Ottomans had to supplant these demographic losses with Albanian/Gheg colonists, who’d then slowly but surely outnumber the native Serbs in "Old Serbia" (Kosovo, Northern Macedonia, and Sanjak). The Serbs who refused to live under Ottoman rule would man the Hungarian, Austrian-Hapsburg, and even Romanian frontiers against the Ottoman Empire, whereas another sizable number of Medieval Serbs would also retreat to the territories of the aforementioned Bishopry of Montenegro. Naturally, the Serb Exodus from Kosovo formed the basis and the bulk of the Austrian-Hapsburg frontier and was the result of the Serbian uprisings against the Ottoman Empire during all Austro-Ottoman wars that raged throughout the 17th and 18th centuries. The Ottoman subjugation was so severe that not even the restoration of the Patriarchate of Pec would be enough to convince the Serbs to stay in Ottoman-held Serbia, so even the seat of the Serb Orthodox church was moved to Austrian-ruled territories, namely Sremski Karlovci. -
> the Serb Exodus from Kosovo formed the basis and the bulk of the Austrian-Hapsburg frontier
This is the frontier in 1700, and you’re confusing a lot of things. Your entire post is Bullshit seethe.We have demographic data. The population increased, and didn’t decrease. Some bishops lost their position and apostasy from Christianity was no longer a deaths sentence. That’s about it for “ottoman oppression”.
>Mainstream and Serbian historiography states what I’m stating, Anatolian Turkish historiography is a shitshow of revisionism, you’ve demonstrated that thoroughly.
are you capable of grasping that not everyone in the world agrees with the Serbian Academy of Science’s stance?> the territories of Medieval Serbia were so depopulated by war and the utter refusal of the majority of Serbs to live under the Ottoman rule that the Ottomans had to supplant these demographic losses with Albanian/Gheg colonists, who’d then slowly but surely outnumber the native Serbs in "Old Serbia" (Kosovo, Northern Macedonia, and Sanjak).
Not true and many of those regions were not Serbian majority despite being ruled by Serbia for a brief period in your “Serbian empire”.> The Serbs who refused to live under Ottoman rule would man the Hungarian, Austrian-Hapsburg, and even Romanian frontiers against the Ottoman Empire, whereas another sizable number of Medieval Serbs would also retreat to the territories of the aforementioned Bishopry of Montenegro.
This was like 3000 people, out of millions. -
>This is the frontier in 1700
The Hungarian Frontier was relative of the same size, and manned exclusively by Serbs, and predates it for centuries, the same goes for the Romanian one, so I’m not sure what this 90IQ response is supposed to mean.>Your entire post is bullshit seethe
t. no rebuttal.> The population increased and didn’t decrease
Serb population steadily decreased, whereas the population of Albanian steadily grew, the staggering movement of Serbs from Ottoman Serbia is the sole reason they’ve resettled the aforementioned Old Serbia with Albanian colonists, for centuries, to boot.>are you capable of grasping that not everyone in the world agrees
Are you capable of grasping that the only ones who disagree with the "SANU" are revisionists like Noel Malcolm, the former president of a literal Albanian Lobbying organization, called the "Anglo-Albanian" Association, which funded and published all his "assessments" of Serbian history, which were, and still are, heavily criticized by the West’s mainstream historians? The POV of SANU is the POV of mainstream historiography.>This was like 3000 people, out of millions.
More like the upper tens of thousands for the first two frontiers, and hundreds of thousands for the Hapsburg one, woke af on primary sources, and Medieval Serbia had only a few million inhabitants.>Not true and many of those regions were not Serbian majority despite
Serbs launched nearly two dozen rebellions against the Ottomans, of which the Banat Uprising was the largest in Europe, and for each and every rebellion, the Ottoman reprisal was monstrous and instigated even more depopulation of Serbs, and only the Greek parts of the Serbian Empire weren’t majority Serb. -
>military frontier
You’re conflating the 1699-1820 Military frontier with the Habsburgs with the 1459-1520 frontier with the Hungarians.
>Albanians
Why are you seething? Is your entire interest in history because of Serbia’s loss in the Kosovo war?>SANU
Lots of people disagree and some of these authors you’ve cited as “revisionists” are professors at All Souls, Oxford. Arguably the most prestigious academic institution in the Western world.>the aristocrats
They numbered around 3000, not 100,000s and not 10,000s. The church in Rome even complained of the small number. -
You’re more than welcome to point out where I’ve conflated the aforementioned frontiers, I’ve named them as being manned by Serbs, and have chronologically specified them, the first being the Hungarian one, then the Romanian one, and at last, the Hapsburg one.
>Why are you seething?
By stating facts about how the Ottomans have demographically supplanted Serbs losses with Albanian colonists, I’m seething? Ottoman censuses are proof of that, in Macedonia, Presevo, Raska, and Kosovo.>They numbered around 3000, not 100,000s and not 10,000
>cannot even comprehend his native language
No one said that the nobles were numbered in tens of thousands, but the Serb people who’ve followed them to Hungary, even those who’ve manned the Romanian frontier were numbered in tens of thousands, whereas the Hapsburg frontier was manned by several hundred thousand Serbs, whose descendants would then constitute slightly more than a million Serbs in pre-WW2 Croatia.>Lots of people disagree
Your split personalities don’t count, and yes, Noel Malcolm is a revisionist and not just that, but a substandard lobbyist who cannot prove a single premise he made and accuses all who criticize his work, including other Englishmen, as being "Serb propagandists, including Atilla Hoare, who is half-Croatian, and ironically, openly anti-Serb. -
>demographic changes
The population goes up, but SANU pretended like it didn’t because they wanted to claim that ottoman rule was an apocalyptic event of depopulation. They did so by not reading ottoman census records and by selectively citing church polemics.>Albanians
They were all living in one state, the Ottoman Empire, and had been so for 200 years by then, and yes they can move around their country. The Ottoman Empire abolished serfdom and allowed for freedom of movement of all. It would be like a Californian moving to Texas.>frontiers
Youve conflated them yet again. The Serbs who “ran away” in 1459 were not manning the Austrians frontier in 1700. The frontier shifted many times in the late 17th c, but the ottomans were only expanding until 1699. There was also a population explosion in the 17th c because of the agricultural revolution (which took place in the Ottoman Empire too). So your Serbs in Croatia in 1718 are not the refugees of 1459, but some locals under Austrian rule who worked for the Austrians. I’m sure you had no idea but Austria also expelled 1,000,000 Muslims from Hungary and 200,000 Muslims from Croatia in 1685-1699.>disagree
I don’t know if you imagine were all Members of SANU but it’s not revisionism because anyone outside of Serbia disagrees with Serbian academic dogma. In Serbia I’m sure people are bullied and pushed to ageee with your thesis and likely face death threats if they publish books disagreeing. Foreigners aren’t under this threat so they can research with ease. -
The population of Serbs steeply dropped during the Ottoman times, whereas the Albanian population supplanted them in equal measure, a moot point.
>They were all living in one state
Moving goalposts, mutt, they were specifically settled in former Serb territories, because of how many Serbs have left Ottoman territory.>The Ottoman Empire abolished serfdom
The Ottomans instituted a system where Muslims openly and freely treated non-Muslims as subhumans.>The Serbs who “ran away” in 1459 was not manning the Austrian frontier in 1700
Intentionally misinterpreting what I’ve said will not refute my argument, the Serbs who left in 1459 manned the Hungarian Frontier, whereas those who’ve left in the 16th century manned the Romanian Frontier, while those who were driven out from Kosovo by Ottoman authorities throughout the 17th and 18th century were manning the Austrian Frontier.>but it’s not revisionism because anyone outside of Serbia disagrees with Serbian academic dogma
There is disagreeing, and then there is spreading revisionism because you’re unironically desperate enough to be bribed by Albanian lobbying organizations in the UK.>agree with your thesis and likely face death threats if they publish books disagreeing
Never happened.>Foreigners aren’t under this threat so they can research with ease
He just so happened to publish anti-Serb revisionism during the height of anti-Serb media propaganda in the 1990s and was heavily criticized by a myriad of authorities on the matter, like, Stevan K. Pavlowitch, Djilas, then by Thomas Emerat, Tim Judah, and Misha Glenny have all noted his obvious anti-Serb and Pro-Albanian bias, and that he didn’t use Serbian sources at all, even though he "addresses" Serbian history. If anything, foreigners are, barring some exceptions, incapable of being objective about Serbian history.>m sure you had no idea
Irrelevant to the discussion, stop moving goalpost, Hashimi. -
> If anything, foreigners are, barring some exceptions, incapable of being objective about Serbian history.
Good thing this is Ottoman history, not Serbian history as Serbia didn’t exist until 1830. -
Serbia re-established itself during the First Serbian Uprising, was shortly dissolved for a year, then re-established during the Second Serbian Uprising, it’s just that the Ottoman Empire was too assblasted about it, and recognized the Serbian state only 15 after Serbia soundly defeated them, and drove them out of Serbia.
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So from 1815-to present, we have Serbian history.
From 1389/1459 (pick one) to 1815, we have Ottoman history. You are making claims about this period without knowing Ottoman Turkish or researching the Turkish archives.
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No, from 1801 do we have the restoration of mainland Serbian history, the last vestige of a Serbian state survived in the form of Montenegro, the successor of the Principality of Zeta.
>pick one
We can only pick 1459 since that is when the Serbian Despotate was conquered, while your people can only pick 1914 as their date of stately birth.>You are making claims about this period without knowing Ottoman Turkish or researching the Turkish archives
Unfortunately for you, Hungarian, Romanian, Austrian, Venetian, and wells of information written by Serb priests are a rebuttal to that premise. -
I honestly can’t see how someone can study Serbian history in Serbia without having to become fluent in Ottoman Turkish and frequently visiting Istanbul for the Ottoman archives building there.
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Because all the sources that have survived into modernity were already translated to Serbian.
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Name one. It looks like you’re all doing fiction woke af on your feelings of pic related is not your 1st, 2nd, and 3rd stop for historical archival research.
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>of
If* -
The first concrete translations were conducted by Jovan Rajic, Pavle Julinac, Nikodim Milas, and Ilarion Ruvarac – the founder of the critical school of Serbian historiography.
>It looks like you’re all doing fiction woke af on your feelings
Such specific accusations are always a reflection of the accuser’s subconscious. -
> The first concrete translations were conducted by Jovan Rajic, Pavle Julinac, Nikodim Milas, and Ilarion Ruvarac – the founder of the critical school of Serbian historiography.
Translations of what? -
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> Of Ottoman, Venetian, and Hungarian (written in Latin) sources on Serb history.
There are 1000s of ottoman records. Translating one might be a dissertation thesis. I doubt there are 1000s of ottoman speakers in Serbia.
> Well-positioned men, what do you think of the position of these men, well as well (haha)
So, you celebrate them? -
The Ottoman records that pertain to Ottoman Serbia were numbered in the lower few hundreds and translated entirely by the end of the 19th century.
>So, you celebrate them
I find their rise impressive, all odds set against them, still succeeding. -
> I find their rise impressive, all odds set against them, still succeeding.
How do you figure that all odd were set against them? -
Because they were Serb Orthodox, and Muslims discriminated heavily against non-Muslims and viewed career converts with suspicion.
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> Because they were Serb Orthodox
Hmm. Someone should tell Sokollu Mehmet Pasha that he was non Muslim! Lol. This is the Mosque be had build in Istanbul.
> viewed converts with suspicion.
Not at all actually. -
>grasping at straws to save face after Svetovid’s trashing
Dreadful, and they were non-Muslim before they’ve converted.>Not at all actually
Muslims regularly culled Christians whenever the Ottomans would lose a war against a Christian state. -
The Sokollu family were Muslims, and only the first one was presumably born non-Muslim. It included dozens of people.
I don’t get it. Do you claim all those people on that list are non Muslim? No? So how do you figure they were able to rise to the highest position possible. Many of them became grand vizier and married the sultan’s daughter or granddaughter.
> Muslims regularly culled Christians whenever the Ottomans would lose a war against a Christian state
Interesting and scandalous, if it were true. Do you have any evidence? -
The Sokolovic family was originally Orthodox, the pasha’s own sis was an Orthodox priest, yet again, you demonstrate no grasp of history whatsoever.
>on that list are non-Muslim
They were non-Muslim before conversion, because only with conversion could they rise through the ranks.> Do you have any evidence?
Yes, the Armenian genocide, the Destruction of Psara, the Batak massacre, the Hamidian massacres, the Adana massacre, the ethnic cleansing of Thracian Bulgarians in 1913.
>inbefore it wasn’t religiously, but ethnically motivated
>but then be like, no, no the Ottomans weren’t racist
Cognitive dissonance is incoming.And then you celebrate people who were convert and some who weren’t (the Ottoman governor of Crete was a Christian Serb for example), all of whom rose to extremely high position.
Yes, recent converts were perceived as practitioners of Crypto-Christianity, like Droverstvo (Serbia), Patsaloi or Linovamvakoi (Cyprus), Laramanoi (Albania), Kouroumlides, Stavriotai, Santaoi, Klostoi (Pontus, Anatolia), Kourmoulides (Crete), Crypto Copts (Egypt), Crypto Maronites (Lebanon), etc.
>then you celebrate
I’ve said I find their rise impressive, given how the odds are set against them, not that I celebrate them. -
Where should I start, lol, this is reeking with lies and indeed, misinformed drivel.
All this thread has taught me is that you have no respect for history as craft and science. You are only motivated by some contemporary political dispute, and are seeking to both aggrandize Serbia and minimize those you perceive to be its rivals.
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Start from not speaking of matters you not knowing of, forming actual rebuttals, instead of just going "this is all lies and misinformed", which is also ironic since you and this gaggle of shitskins were thoroughly trashed, even after you’ve vastly derailed from the thread’s topic. You’ve no grasp of Serb history, and you’ve no grasp of Ottoman history either, and yet again, no rebuttal from your side.
>You are only motivated by some contemporary political dispute
Projections, very obvious ones, at that.
More like his Habibi
"Habibi", 99% of that was built by those who preceded them, the rest was built by a secular state which abhorred Islam, and especially the Arabs. Where are you from, while we’re at it?
>inbefore assend of Shitskinistan
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Aşkım, yüzlerce koca camı var İstanbul’da.
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Enough, Esek-Turk, return to farming turnips and fleeing to mountains when the Janissary arrive to sell you into the Ghilman.
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That’s one source from one couple of scrotebrained American missionaries in the late 19th c, and it is used by some people like you to blanket project these claims over the whole Ottoman Empire for 700 years.
Yes we do, they were systematically impoverished, lived in far worse living conditions than their Muslim neighbors, a factual reality, and why would they justify their uprisings with something like taxes, when they have their own history and states to re-establish? After all, the Ottomans conquered the previous states, and its inhabitants have never forgotten that, and have had all the right to regain their freedom.
None of these are true. They retconned it because they had no serious reason to revolt and they wanted their own kids to think of them as heroes and shit. Simple as.
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The source is Matti Moosa, one of the foremost authorities on Oriental/Islamic studies, relied primarily on Islamic sources.
"No crown can make the king the owner of poverty and penury. The one who belongs to the Turkic land is stubborn. The Turk lacks the ability to rule."
~Mahmud Abdülbâkî"Allah has deprived Turks of the source of knowledge.”
~Nef’i"Don’t consider the Turk as a human. If by any chance a Turkic hand touches sugar it makes it into poison. Don’t be sad while beheading a Turk. Even if he is a father don’t hesitate to kill a Turk."
~From a poem of Hafız Ahmet Çelebi, written in 1499"Turks, dogs, wolves, personate the wild but when the time comes to encounter the enemy they run away."
~Kerimedin Mahmud"The Turk people are scrotebrained, spiritually barbarians, disrespectful, charlatans, and filthy."
~ Mustafa Naima”What all these men have in common is that they were Ottoman administration, and all shared the same sentiment regarding Turks.
>not sure how this is supposed to be an insult to Turkey
I did not specify it as being an insult aimed at Turks, but it might as well be, since, outside the traditionally Greek cities, Turkey is a 3rd world shithole, inhabited by utter subhumans, and Turkey is one of the (previously) longest USA vassals and NATO members, now Russia’s, amusing. -
I can show you coins minted by Selim and Suleiman that call themselves Emperor of the Turks.
Do you want to just meme war here or discuss history?
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You’re free to do so, but we both know they’re not originals, and you’ve been dishing out Turkoid revisionism from the get-go, you’re not here to speak of history, and we’re not having an argument, but a session where I’m trashing you and the rest of these shitskins for hours. Fortunately, all of you are stupid enough to respond and die on this hill, peak Muslimmoment.
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>revisionism
This is not the Communist Yugoslavia, Serboid, you don’t get to call someone “revisionist” and have them shot. -
Firstly, Turkey fired hundreds of thousands of professors, teachers, and journalists just because they refused to worship Erdogan, your Georgian (not Turkish) president. Secondly, you’re a literal warzone in the East, slaughtering Kurds under the false pretense of terrorism, and thirdly, more than welcome to name even a single journalist whom Yugoslavia had ever assassinated, Esek-Turk subhuman :).
>about him and he held no academic title in his life
Delusional mutt, seethe harder. -
>but it might as well be, since, outside the traditionally Greek cities
Greece hasn’t had any influence in Anatolia for centuries, so your statement is quite meaningless.
How absurd.> Turkey is a 3rd world shithole,
Objectively false.
> inhabited by utter subhumans,
What does that make the people who lost to them. =)
> and Turkey is one of the (previously) longest USA vassals and NATO members,
Most European states are American vassal state.
What’s your point.
At least, it has the capacity to assert it’s sovereignty now.
Though it still has to do favors to America every now and than.
> now Russia’s, amusing.
Why should anyone take your analysis seriously when you utter such nonsense.I hope to God you are being sarcastic.
I can’t really tell since you are so dumb. -
>"Habibi", 99% of that was built by those who preceded them,
No.
> the rest was built by a secular state which abhorred Islam,
The ruler may have.
> and especially the Arabs. Where are you from, while we’re at it?
Most of the infrastructure development in Turkey’s infrastructure are from Erdo’s era.
Your pic related is from Egypt a highly degraded American vassal state, not sure how this is suppose to be an insult to Turkey. -
> Mohamed was White
> WeWuzz ancient Mooooslimz and shiet
I don’t get what this is doing for you or the garden gnome who made up this lie. -
You claimed that converts were discriminated against, and that non Muslims were discriminated against.
And then you celebrate people who were convert and some who weren’t (the Ottoman governor of Crete was a Christian Serb for example), all of whom rose to extremely high position.
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> Muslims discriminated heavily against non-Muslims
How so? How do you figure? -
According to Moshe Ma’oz, Christians and garden gnomes were seen as “inferior subjects or as illegitimate denominations.” As a result, they were often discriminated against by the state entity. While they were indeed guaranteed legal protection, that is not to say, however, that garden gnomes and Christians enjoyed palpable freedom under Islamic rule. They were seen as inferior by both the government and by many people. Put in simplistic terms, the superiority complex held by Muslims in the Ottoman Empire can likely be attributed to their acceptance of the Prophet Muhammad as the final prophet, a belief that Christians and garden gnomes did not aspire to. Their failure to do so may have caused Muslim rulers to view them in a substandard capacity. As such, they were required to pay a special poll tax, a jizya (for dummies, fat additional taxes). While they were allowed to hold certain senior-level positions, such as financial advisers or physicians, they were always required to hold only those positions subordinate to their Muslim counterparts.
They were even subjected to restrictions in dress or were harassed by certain officials and neighbors. This shows that despite the granting of dhimma to Christians and garden gnomes, unofficial acts of prejudice were always condoned. There was a certain sense of social segregation between Muslims and non-Muslims. Stereotypes categorizing Christians and garden gnomes were often utilized in proliferating the gap between them. Even in areas of close proximity between the groups, where they lived and worked as neighbors, they were rarely included in the communal “we” of the neighborhoods. garden gnomes and Christians were very rarely dealt with on an individual basis, instead, they were clumped into a millet system, which dealt with them as a community. On top of that, a Muslim could strip a non-Muslim of his private property and not answer for it because the "Christian’s house was more elaborately painted", many such cases.
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Most of this is extremely misinformed bordering on lies. The facts are clear. Non Muslims thrived in the Ottoman Empire, and so did Converts.
The rest is “they made me feel bad” tier bullshit. Like leftists who claim modern west is a gigantic evil tyrannical society.
Ottoman Empire only ever discriminated against traitors. That’s it.
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> instead, they were clumped into a millet system, which dealt with them as a community.
Misinformed. The ottomans let everyone self govern if they wanted. So your Serbs would be ruled by Serbian customs and Serbian church feeling, in line with ottoman law (so a Serbian ottoman priest couldn’t execute a Serbian who converts to Islam for apostasy).t. lost of seething, no rebuttal, true to tradition, VERY Muslim.
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More like his Habibi
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More like this
We have tax records. They weren’t taxed heavily. All this is retroconned to justify the late 19th c revolts.
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Yes we do, they were systematically impoverished, lived in far worse living conditions than their Muslim neighbors, a factual reality, and why would they justify their uprisings with something like taxes, when they have their own history and states to re-establish? After all, the Ottomans conquered the previous states, and its inhabitants have never forgotten that, and have had all the right to regain their freedom.
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Taxes are not everything.
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You lose your time. Muslim are constantly indoctrinated about the fact that living under their death cult is the best thing ever even for those oppressed.
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>On top of that, a Muslim could strip a non-Muslim of his private property and not answer for it because the "Christian’s house was more elaborately painted", many such cases.
Verifiably untrue. Considering the huge non Muslim landowners in the Ottoman Empire. He is maybe seething about a 1569 project of urban renewal in Istanbul that eminent domain’d part of a non Muslim neighborhood to build roads.> instead, they were clumped into a millet system, which dealt with them as a community.
Misinformed. The ottomans let everyone self govern if they wanted. So your Serbs would be ruled by Serbian customs and Serbian church feeling, in line with ottoman law (so a Serbian ottoman priest couldn’t execute a Serbian who converts to Islam for apostasy). -
None of this is can be deemed “discriminated heavily”.
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> As such, they were required to pay a special poll tax, a jizya (for dummies, fat additional taxes).
Not fat but yes they were taxed, and it was not additional. It was singular. They paid one tax, the Jizya. Nothing else. It was also calculated to be equivalent to Muslim taxes. -
They paid exorbitant taxes and were repeatedly taxed, which was the reason why Christians were notably poorer than Muslims, and why Christians risked lived like outlaws than endure Muslim-induced poverty (Hajduci)
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And an honorable mention should be Djordje Brankovic, the 18th-century Serbian nobleman on the Wallachian court who was also a dragoman, and a skilled translator of Arabic, Persian, and Ottoman Turkish.
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What is your view of these people? An inexhaustive list by the way.
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Serbia was still an Ottoman province until 1867.
Serbian historiography is woke af on surviving pre-Ottoman sources, Austrian reports, and naturally, Serbian translations of Ottoman Turkish sources and population censuses.
It’s not really woke af on any translations. It’s woke af on using Austrian reports while neglecting to consult Ottoman records.
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Serbia was an independent state, only nominally vassalized by the Ottomans, who were then triumphantly trashed in the Serbo-Turkish War
Serbian historiography is woke af on surviving pre-Ottoman sources, Austrian reports, and naturally, Serbian translations of Ottoman Turkish sources and population censuses.
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>It’s woke af on using Austrian reports while neglecting to consult Ottoman records
That can only be reliably said to the data regarding the battles during the Serb Uprisings, whereas historical and demographic data stems from the translations and other aforementioned sources. -
>rebellions
There are none in the 15th c or 16th c I can see. The rest are Habsburg or Western instigated (ie bribed) small uprisings by some debauched noble or a local bandit chief to accompany an invasion. Notably the Austrian/Russians did this. -
The Banat Uprising and the Serb Uprisings of 1596-1597 engulfed massive territories and were the largest Uprisings in the 16th century.
>15th century
Get your pills, no one mentioned the 15th century, the rest is dense cope, you’re slipping, but you were stupid enough to die on this hill, and you shall.Now you imagine that they teleported to the 150-year long Austrian-border-frontier?
No, the source state that was was a large exodus of Serbs from the Ottoman Empire to the Kingdom of Hungary, these Serbs were famed warriors, and fielded the majority of troops at the battle of Breadfield, where some 30 000 Ottomans were defeated by 15000 men.
>Now you imagine that they teleported to the 150-year long Austrian border frontier?
No, the ones who manned the Hapsburg frontier arrived from Kosovo, several hundred thousand of them.By size, the largest revolutions in Serbia are the following, the Banat Uprising, the First Serbian Uprising, and the Second Serbian Uprising.
>What you’re pussyfooting around is that the 1830 “revolution”, backed by Austria and Russia
There was no Serbian uprising in 1830, you illiterate, seething subhuman.>Not because the locals felt oppressed
The daily reminder the Ottoman Empire was buried by furious Serbian, Montenegrin, Bulgarian and Greek pig farmers. -
I don’t know why you’re so upset or concerned about this. Serbia was basically a bunch of aristocrats with little to no interest in the peasants. Most peasants probably preferred Ottoman rule because it meant less taxes and more modern courts. This game of trying to minimize the ottoman conquest is silly.
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From the Battle of Kosovo onwards, Serbia was a vassal and part of the Ottoman Empire. It was later incorporated as a province of the Ottoman Empire.
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You’re moving goalposts, and the Despotate of Serbia was vassalized only twice, and shortly, the first vassalization lasted for less than a decade and ended in 1402, whereas the second and last one began in 1453, and even with the status of a vassal, the state was invaded and conquered by the Ottoman Empire in 1459.
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Its status changes from vassal to province in 1459.
Until 1453, the rich Byzantines bribe the various Anatolian Turks or Balkan vassals or even the Westerners to invade the Ottomans when they are threatening the Byzantine capital. After 1453, the Ottomans clean up the situation.
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Until 1453, the Ottomans were not in a position to re-vassalize Serbia.
As I’ve thought, full-blown Turkish revisionism at work, these battles and numbers are drawn from primary sources, including Ottoman Turkish ones.
>Turkish villagers
There were no Turkish colonists at the time. -
> There were no Turkish colonists at the time.
Wrong there were many Turkish villagers throughout the Balkans.
> Until 1453, the Ottomans were not in a position to re-vassalize Serbia.
Wrong
> As I’ve thought, full-blown Turkish revisionism at work, these battles and numbers are drawn from primary sources, including Ottoman Turkish ones.
The “battles” occurred but they were not battles. They were the main crusader army approaching the ottomans and fighting some tiny scouting detachments and massacring Turkish villages. Then they met the main ottoman army and were crushed, with the crusader king beheaded. -
All of these battles were large-scale, pitched battles where the Ottomans were numerically superior but defeated at every turn, and Turkish colonists would appear only in Northeastern Greece, parts of Macedonia, and parts of Eastern Bulgaria, and only some decades after the conquest of Medieval Serbia, which pushed the front far to the northwest (to Hungary, Bosnia, and Herzegovina).
>Wrong
History begs to differ. -
The Byzantines weren’t rich in the 1400s. Orban offered his services to them before Mehmet and they had to decline because they couldn’t afford him. He went to Mehmet precisely for that reason.
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>Thanks Serbia.
Best ally of Osmans also remember woke af Gavrilo.
Byzantines should have exterminated them.
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What year is this map from
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1390
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Thanks
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Also, the rest of your post is straight up lies. They lasted 700 years, and they routinely defeated their enemies despite being outnumbered 50 to 1.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Maritsa
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>with minimal resources and while being grossly outnumbered
what? the ottomans were the rising star in the area when their conquest really kicked off. how can you even try to paint them as an underdog without a shred of shame when they were wrapping up the beatdown of one long worn empire and mopping up the recently broken down remnants of another?-
Muslims have an obsession with portraying themselves as the underdog in their history, to valorize themselves to the point of no return.
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>the ottomans were the rising star in the area
they were a tiny beylik-
In the late 13th century, yes, whereas a rising empire in the early-to-mid 14th, keep the taqiyya to a minimum.
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Mehmed faced heavyweights like Skanderberg, Constantine XI and Vlad Tepes. It was a Chad Battle Royale
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Balkan countries were smaller than the Ottoman base for manpower.
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Greek Naval Assistants
lol -
Why not? They’re ethnic Europeans and Europeans had been making strong empires for centuries.
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European powers didn’t let Russia stamo them out becuase they were insecure/assblasted that Russia had become too big
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Because until Vienna they didn’t encounter an actual empire to fight.
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And who is this actual empire, The Holy Roman Empire, a laughably inept state which consisted of several galaxies worth of mini-states?
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Luck, every balkan state either working with the Ottomans together or not even fighting back, superb state administration wich allowed them to match and outnumber almost every crusade, great sultans wich werent bumfuck scrotebrained and again every single balkan state outside of maybe Bosnia cooperated with the Ottomans and its not hard to conquer a people wich greet you with arms open and hate your rivals even more then you do
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Sort of. The Balkan people preferred Ottoman rule. Make of that what you will. Many of the Balkan states were powerful entities who could defeat anyone in the period, including England or France or the northern Spanish realms, but they lost resoundingly to the Ottomans. Some of the aristocrats Embraced the ottomans, some didn’t. The pope certainly did not.
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>Many of the Balkan states were powerful entities who could defeat anyone in the period, including England or France or the northern Spanish realms
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Yes. They fielded 30-50,000 or more heavily armed cavalry + infantry.
At Nicopolis, the English, German, and French knights had their own chance and lost resoundingly.
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Might be referring to Hungarians?
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The Hungarians, PLC (Poland), and HRE were also great powers of the period. Stronger than England or France. They had their chance early on too, at Varna (1444) and lost resoundingly.
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you are delusional, every balkan state had multiple rebelions throughout the time they had been under ottoman rule
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Imagine a new tech company that 10x’s every 5 years. That is the Ottoman Empire. Now imagine some strong legacy boomer company that makes like 2% gains a year, that’s the legacy kingdoms of the Balkans and Europe.
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Under the reign of Suleiman the Magnificent (1494-1566), the Ottoman Empire marked the peak of its power. He was the longest-reigning Sultan of the Ottoman Empire from 1520 until his death in 1566. He oversaw the "Golden" age of the Ottoman Empire in its artistic, literary and architectural development
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The other Ottoman flank assaulted the Hungarians and Bulgarians of Michael Szilagyi. Their push was stopped and turned back; then Sipahis attacked again. Hunyadi decided to help and advised Władysław to wait until he returned; then advanced with two cavalry companies. The young king, ignoring Hunyadi’s advice, rushed 500 of his Polish knights against the Ottoman center. They attempted to overrun the Janissary infantry and take Murad prisoner, and almost succeeded, but in front of Murad’s tent Władysław’s horse either fell into a trap or was stabbed, and the king was slain by mercenary Kodja Hazar, who beheaded him while doing so.[16] The remaining coalition cavalry were demoralized and defeated by the Ottomans.
On his return, Hunyadi tried frantically to salvage the king’s body, but all he could accomplish was to organize the retreat of the remains of his army; it suffered thousands of casualties in the chaos, and was virtually annihilated. Neither the head nor body of the king were ever found. The minnesinger Michael Beheim wrote a song woke af on the story of Hans Mergest who spent 16 years in Ottoman captivity after the battle.
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Nicopolis, the French
Struggling in their heavy armor, they reached the plateau on the top of the slope, where they had expected to find fleeing Turkish forces, but instead found themselves facing a fresh corps of sipahis, whom Bayezid had kept in reserve. As the sipahis surged forward in the counterattack sounding trumpets, banging kettle drums and yelling "God is greater!", the desperation of their situation was readily apparent to the French and some knights broke and fled back down the slope. The rest fought on "no frothing boar nor enraged wolf more fiercely," in the words of one contemporary chronicler. Admiral de Vienne, to whom was granted the honor as the eldest knight of carrying the French standard into battle, was wounded many times as he attempted to rally the morale of his countrymen, before being struck down. Other notable knights who were slain include Jean de Carrouges, Philippe de Bar, and Odard de Chasseron.
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Timur leaves, the Ottoman princes have a 10 year civil war, Prince Mehmet (soon Mehmet I) wins. Backed by Stefan Lazerevic btw. Mehmet then faces a huge (proto) communist social revolt led by Anatolian Turks.
= Furthermore, as a result of the Battle of Ankara and other civil wars, the population of the empire had become unstable and traumatized. A very powerful social and religious movement arose in the empire and became disruptive. The movement was led by Sheikh Bedreddin (1359–1420), a famous Muslim Sufi and charismatic theologian
In total, ruling 10 years before dying.
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Murad II, the son of Mehmet I, takes over, and marries the Serbian ruler’s daughter also. He will defeat more Anatolian Turkish beys and also Europeans. He sieges the Byzantine capital but has to abandon it due to an invasion from Anatolia. The Byzantines have an Ottoman prince (Prince Mustafa called “small” because he was 13) and release him with money and also a secret alliance with all of the powerful Anatolian (Aydin, Mentese, Teke, Germiyan) Beyliks, Murad defeats him in 1421, takes over these Anatolian Beyliks, and thinks about driving the Byzantine capital again but moves instead against Hungary/Venice/Karaman/Serbia. He defeats each and this prompts a crusade, the Crusade of Varna in 1444, which he also defeats. Murat II’s son Mehmet II will eventually conquer the Byzantine capital once and for all.
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That doesn’t refute a thing I’ve said, and I wouldn’t consider the Varna Crusade a triumph, because the Ottomans were on the defensive, and beaten in half a dozen battles, in which the last Serbian despot and Hunyadi were the leading generals, and their troops formed the bulk of the crusading armies.
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Those aren’t real battles. They are skirmishes in the lead up to the battle. They went around massacring Turkish villagers and some small Turkish forces. Those articles show the combined forces in theatre in each battle. The actual Battle of Varna is the main battle when the full armies clash.
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>Roach and slav(e) arguing
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A Serbian peasant could petition an Ottoman Kadi (Judge) for nearly any reason whatsoever, win, and win against his own landowner local aristocrat, the local priest, or the richest merchant in town. This was impossible in the previous administration.
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Ottoman Serbia was semi-deserted thanks to the ineptitude of the Ottoman administration, you’ve quite literally no idea what you’re talking about.
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I might not have read your favorite Serbian author who you are probably trying to regurgitate although I think even here you’re mistaken, but this doesn’t mean I don’t know what I’m talking about. Have some humility.
There were a few thousand aristocrat Serbians who left for Hungary in the 15th c, because they would lose their serfs and their tyrannical authority. Ottoman law liberated serfs wherever it met them, and placed Ottoman courts in between commoners and the nobility. Unlike in Europe or pre Ottoman Serbia, courts in the Ottoman Empire were not open only to aristocrats or some high level church people, anyone— from slaves to peasants to priests to anyone, could start and win a law case with no restrictions on participating.
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I’ll show some humility when you bother to learn some history before you start talking about matters you’ve demonstrated to know nothing of.
Firstly, the Serb nobility refused to live under the Ottoman rule and was followed by literally tens of thousands of Serbs who’ve manned entire Hungarian frontiers against the Ottoman Empire, which refutes the premise of Ottomans being better rulers, and more just.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rascians>Ottoman law liberated serfs wherever it met them
Delusional.>and placed Ottoman courts in between commoners and the nobility
Even more delusional, Dusan’s Law was vastly superior to the Ottoman legislature.> from slaves to peasants to priests to anyone could start and win a law case with no restrictions on participating.
There’s not a single report of a Serb winning against a Muslim, for the whole duration of the Ottoman Empire, Muslim authorities simply refuse to dispense fairness to non-Muslim, whom they’ve seen as beneath them.>This tradition of Balkan historiography
Is woke af on the factual realities of Ottoman occupation, and pre-Ottoman history.> is quite striking and very unsustainable.
Serbs led two dozen rebellions against the Ottomans due to how well they’ve governed Serbia.>Your entire sense of identity is being tied up with these peoples’ discontents
t. Anglo ruled by foreigners for 1000 years.-
> Firstly, the Serb nobility refused to live under the Ottoman rule and was followed by literally tens of thousands of Serbs who’ve manned entire Hungarian frontiers against the Ottoman Empire, which refutes the premise of Ottomans being better rulers, and more just.
The sources say some nobility left and nobility being fighters, were used by Hungary, eventually by the Battle of Mohacs— Hungary too is conquered and these people stayed in the Ottoman Empire.Now you imagine that they teleported to the 150-year long Austrian-border-frontier?
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Why were the ottomans so good from 1400-1650?
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Superior army
Superior justice system
Superior system overall
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This tradition of Balkan historiography in which you identify with the plight of 2-3000 aristocrats who lost their privileges to own/kill/exploit for free their peasants in the Ottoman Empire, is quite striking and very unsustainable.
People who were upset with the ottomans: high level church authorities who lost their rights to execute heretics/apostates and also their feudal rights. High level aristocrats who lost their domination over the country and their ownership of peasant serfs. This is about 1% or less of the population of the country. Your entire sense of identity is being tied up with these peoples’ discontents.
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They revolted and formed a serb identity because the later ottomans were dysfunctional as fuck and Serbia was used as a battlefield between Austria and the Ottomans for centuries.
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> They revolted and formed a serb identity because the later ottomans were dysfunctional as fuck and Serbia was used as a battlefield between Austria and the Ottomans for centuries
Serbia revolted in 1830 because some local Jannisaries after the abolishment of the Jannisary order revolted and tried to sack Belgrade. The population rises up, and then the Russians and Austrians took advantage of it to invade and declare a new state.-
>Serbia revolted in 1830
>scrote has literally no idea what he’s talking about, cannot even memorize the dates
??????? The first Serb rebellion happened in the 16th century, whereas what you’re referring to is the late 18th century (Serbs versus the Dahije), while the first Serbian Revolution was launched at the very beginning of the 19th century, as a continuation of the aforementioned event in the late 18th century. Matter of fact, both Serbian Revolutions predate the 1830s by at least a decade and a half.>The population rises up, and then the Russians and Austrians took advantage of it to invade and declare a new state
Except the Revolutionary state was founded by the Serb revolutionaries themselves, whereas the Russians and the Austrians refused to assist it throughout the 1810s.-
What you’re pussyfooting around is that the 1830 “revolution”, backed by Austria and Russia, was the only serious and major “uprising” and it started because the local Jannisaries themselves revolted first. Not because the locals felt oppressed.
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Yeah, I mean it’s not like they were militarily invaded and occupied for centuries and introduced to the religion of peace. They were liberated from the oppression of christian feudal lords and the church.
And yet they had the guts to revolt !
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Lmao, is this what Turks are taught these days? Utterly delusional.
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Because Protestantism. The idea was to crusade the turks, but all the proddies and the frogs sided with the turks.
There were some attempts before, most notably the frog-hungarian crusade, but it failed due to typical frog ineptitude.
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So you better brush up on your Ottoman Turkish and hit the archives in Istanbul if you want to understand this era well. Do you speak Ottoman Turkish? No? So what do you imagine gives you experience into provincial history of a part of the Ottoman Empire in the 17th c?
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Serbian historiography is woke af on surviving pre-Ottoman sources, Austrian reports, and naturally, Serbian translations of Ottoman Turkish sources and population censuses.
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Svetovid I have no idea why you care so much about what people think of serbiaj history
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He imagines that Albanians brainwashing the world is the reason why the Kosovo war was lost and, we haven’t it discussed it, but maybe he thinks it has to do with NATO bombing Belgrade too.
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It’s a matter of stating facts.
Adorable, the Shqiptar gave himself away, and since you were mentioning reputable Anglo-Saxon institutions of education, I presume you agree with their assessment?
And yes, because the KLA was utterly destroyed by the JA, to the point where all its leadership was dead, and its army devastated in less than a year. Without NATO = dead Tonibler
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So do you imagine that Albanians managed to lobby NATO to bomb you because NATO didn’t appreciate how this medieval figure was actually Serbian?
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No, I managed the USA weaponized the KLA to instigate a casus belli in the case of Yugoslavia’s inevitable triumph just to get their hands on the many valuable mines that are found in Kosovo, Skanderbeg being a Serb is just an added bonus.
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>Skanderbeg being a Serb is just an added bonus
Too bad he wasn’t. =)-
The most reputable Anglo-Saxon institutions have said he was, that means he is, after all, they’re the objective, unbiased wells of information.
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He was not Serbian. And moreover, I’m sure the entire Serbian nation sold their cuff links and earrings, with grandma’s melting down their hidden small crosses, all to brube whatever meme tier fifth rate edition of Cambridge’s gigantic volume of yearly outputs to get this one maybe claim printed.
Prof Noel Malcolm by comparison is a serious and important scholar. A fellow of All Souls, Oxford.
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How adorable, all that impotent rage penned in that small, deformed Turkish being, dreadful.
Mustafa Naima was right: "The Turk people are scrotebrained, spiritually barbarians, disrespectful, charlatans, and filthy, you’ve displayed all these traits except for being filthy, but no reason to attempt to check that, we don’t want another global virus unleashing itself upon the world.
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Stop denigrating the Turks, it makes look their conquest of the Balkans even more embarrassing.
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It was not Esek-Turks who conducted the conquest, but the Ottomans, a powerful Arabo-Persian empire, not a khanate of horse-freaking degenerates fleeing from the Golde Horde, like cowards. Did you know that 88% of the Ottoman Turkish language was non-Turkic vocabulary-wise?
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The Ottomans were a Turkish dynasty, that’s what matters. Same with Berbers conquering the Iberian peninsula on behalf of the Umayyad, who were an Arab dynasty. Serbian princesses ended up in harem of Turkish princes while Serbia became the Ottomans’ loyal vassal, but it’s still no reason to seethe. There’s plenty of things you can do to improve your personal situation instead of being butthurt all the time.
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The only ones seething here are a gaggle of shitskins who’ve been utterly beaten at their pitiful attempt at diverting the thread in several paths. And it seems to be Muslims are wholly unaware of the following:
1. Montenegro, the last vestige of the Medieval Serb state was never conquered and sired 2 of Serbia’s modern-day royal dynasties.
2. Up until the Serbo-Bulgarian War, the Serbs won every single war they’ve ever fought in, and they only fought against the Ottomans.
3. Here’s Fuad-bey after Kumanovo (part of the Balkan Wars, where Serbs won every single battle against the Ottomans), shedding tears because the Serbs killed his son and army, how very Turkish, and speaking about Serbia, when you were colonized by Westerners (and still are), is beyond ironic, MENA mutt.
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> diverting the thread
This is a thread on the ottomans, not on Serbia, and Zeta/Montenegro were vassals intentionally kept as such. -
vassals? lol no, cope more
from 1799:
"We Sultan Selim-Emir, sis of the Sun and cousin of the Moon, reigning from heaven to earth, from East to West, sultan of all sultans, give to the knowledge of our visirs, pashas and cadis, in Bosnia , Hercezgowine, Albania and Macedonia, which are neighboring countries of Montenegro, that the Montenegrins have never been subject to our court, so that they will be welcomed at our borders, and we hope that these will act in the same way towards our subjects" -
Bad source but
>we were poor during a global recession /world war in 1815, means we were poor from 1389 to 1815 too!
Doesn’t follow -
1. None of the mines ran out, they’re still in use.
2. Montenegro and Zeta were never conquered by the time, neither were they ever made a vassal, this is a universally known fact, barring Turkey it seems, but that in itself tells us that Turks are also aware of it, but are coping hard.
3. What’s with you and 1389, Medieval Serbia was conquered in 1459, and permanently liberated in 1815.Also: "Without formally declaring an end to the peace treaty, Sultan Mehmed II invaded Serbia in mid-July 1454. Much of central Serbia fell, but the capital was well-prepared and the Ottomans, upon hearing that Hunyadi would cross the Danube to reinforce the Serbs, soon lifted their siege of Smederevo. The Sultan retreated back to Sofia with loot and slaves, leaving most of his army at Kruševac. A smaller Serbian army under Voivode Nikola Skobaljić, which was in Dubočica, cut off from the north, defeated an Ottoman army near Leskovac on September 24, while the main army under Đurađ Branković, together with Hungarian force led by Hunyadi, crushed the Ottomans at Kruševac, capturing their commander, Firuz-bey.[18][16]. But these successes only bought little time. Nikola Skobaljić’s resistance, which due to his army’s low numbers came to be respected by the Turks themselves, was crushed by another Ottoman force on November 16 and he was executed. In the early spring of 1455, the Sultan continued his invasion of Serbia. This time, the Ottomans focused on taking southern Serbia first. Novo Brdo was besieged with heavy cannons and fell on June 1, 1455, after forty days of resistance.[19][20]
was aimed at (You)
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The same way the West is currently being subjugated
By "encouraging" their children to emasculate themselves -
How many of these mosques in Istanbvll were built before Türks?
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[…]
a literal "who" to you, but an esteemed authority to all who’ve read history.
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There is one German wiki article about him and he held no academic title in his life. He was seething about Muslims and Turks because he got refugee’d at some point and that anti Turk right wing muh defend Christendom schizos online are citing this meme as an “authority” is hilarious.
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The only geographically relevant opposition were the Austrians, who were too busy imploding to put up a fight, and the Russians, who had 6 gorillion other fronts to worry about. No one else gave a shit about the Balkans until after WW1 when the French and British realized ‘Oh shit we should actually care about this shithole or another Great War might happen’
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[…]
>Serbs defeated them throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries, history didn’t end in the 15th century.
That doesn’t really refute my point.
I get that you are not all that bright but still.
Yes, the Turks eventually lost their empire.
I never argued for their eternal supremacy , you emotional little girl.> t. no rebuttal.
It’s not suppose to be one, since you presented no argument.
You just made a baseless assertion.> What’s absurd is that you’re unaware that up until 1922, the majority populations of Western Turkey and Pontus, incidentally, the only parts of Turkey that aren’t shitholes, were populated primarily by Greeks.
If you are talking about the very furtherst part of the West of Turkey, sure.
Furthermore, most of them bonked off, so it doesn’t really make your cope anymore viable.> My point is, you shitskinned midge, is that Turkey went from being an Amerimutt vassal to being Russia’s vassal,
It’s not a Russian vassal, you estrogen ridden little girl.
Please do substantiate your claim.
> so no, no "assertion of power".
It is.
It took cyprus and is bombing the shit out of Amerimutt proxies in Syria (the Kurd rats).
And it holds a significant chunk of Syrian clay too. =)
Where as most Euro-vassal states bend the knee and get a mouthful of that Amerimutt cock.
> t. seething and yet again, no rebuttal
You presented no argument.
You just made a baseless assertion.> Muslims are mentally impaired, so it’s not surprising that you cannot detect sarcasm.
No one can detect sarcasm with someone as dumb as you are, Lol.> Just dreadful, you’re either Paki rat-man or something worse.
Yes, Turks are the founders and rightful inheritors of the ottoman empire.
You emotional scrote. XD-
Trump handed you the Kurds on a sliver platter
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The PKK was pushed back until schizoid Americans REE’d about it. They even had to print fake news.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/14/business/media/turkey-syria-kentucky-gun-range.html-
No a few scrotebrains reeeeeeeed. To most Americans a Kurd is a deep fried chunk of cheese that’s sold at county fairs and a few restaurants
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Your entire establishment, media, military brass, and deep state. The PKK are antifa communist ultra nationalist Kurds who are your local glowie agents actively attacking your nato ally, which you encourage, and then seethe when Turkey goes and buys Russian missile defense.
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Trump dumped then after they weren’t useful anymore. The deep state obviously just wanted to continue a forever war there. Not sure why you are pooping yourself over it
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No. He dumped them because he decided to treat Turkey like an ally, and respect Turkey.
They are very useful to the US, given that the US plans to create a new state in southeast Turkey and north Syria which they run and which is a US deep state vassal.
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What the fuck are you talking about. The deep state already has its Kurd state and base in Iraq.
PKK doesnt have that’s status. Erodagan is just too big of a pussy to finish them off and annex idlib as well
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Are you scrotebrained?
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Are you. The Kurds are only an issue for the region today because of the ottomans/Turks
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Why? Because they are “stateless”, well so are African-Americans and CHI-Americans.
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No moron because the ottomans empowered them throughout their reign, used them to ethnically cleanse the area of non Muslims then allowed them to take over the villages they cleared out for you guys. Then in the 60s you got autistic and killed a bunch of your dogs causing them to bite back
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No scrotebrain. The Armenians/ with backing from the Russians did the same ploy in 1915 and failed.
The US glowies doing false flag shit used communist ideology to brainwash a few Kurdish students in Ankara in 1975 and used them to setup PKK. The rest is history
You don’t seem to realize that PKK is communist. They feel like anything short of antifa-Portland commune is oppression.
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I’m saying that the Kurds in general are only a problem because of the ottomans. Them being communist has nothing to do with my statement
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Kurds aren’t a problem you scrotebrain. PKK is a problem.
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Again that’s your fault they are a thing
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Yes by joining NATO and letting the US agents run amuck
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You scrotebrain American. You had one honest, good president in 100 years and you let him get smeared by your deep state. And then you go and lie.
The us congress consider an attack on PKK to be an attack on the US military. Why? Because the PKK is entirely US trained and led, and given $500,000,000 a year in US money to pay its bills and run things.
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Same shit. 3-5000 PKK militants are being considered representative of 15,000,000 Kurds. Back then you had to convince the Russian and English public, now it’s the American public. Back then fake news was hard to debunk, and the Bulgarian atrocities fake news is what made European public accept their sponsorship of Bulgarian terrorist gangs (3-5000 in number). Today we can debunk ABC NEWS fake news about so called turkish atrocities against Kurds but not before they air it twice and decline to publish a correction.
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The westoid scum is trying to do with Kurds what they did with Bulgarians and Serbs. It won’t work this time scrotebrain. It’s already failed. Drones are one hell of a weapon 🙂
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[…]
>Westoids
Reddit. Specifically, balkan/muslim/izlam/turkey circlejerk subreddit -
So if they moved to get away from the ottomans, they didn’t succeed because the ottomans eventually conquered the place they ran away to; and stayed there for 150-200 years more.
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cevapi, aka kebabi
>inb4 anyone could have cooked bread and meat
Then why didn’t they Dumbass, they don’t eat this food with this flavor in Normandy or Norway or Spain or Hamburg
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You will always be a roach
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Their is more turk cope here then any thread ive read in my life
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What’s the cope? Turks were like 10% of the Balkans and kept it for 700 years.
>by oppression!!
Impossible and no. Turks literally practiced autonomy rule>by evil ways!!!
Ummm what? -
Explain to me why I eat the same foods in Kayseri as a Serb in Belgrade.
Consider how much of English customs remain in former English colonies of 100 years.
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If a Turk tries to study or examine Ottoman rule in the Balkans, the Servoid feels it’s a threat to his personal honor if the discussion seems to conclude that Ottomans were not 24/7 murdering/eating innocent Serbs for fun.
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So you imagine that Ottomans were oppressive? Do you know how hard it is to be oppressive? It takes a lot of resources? Or how hard it is to keep your rule if you rely solely on oppression/fear/violence to rule? It requires stationing troops everywhere.
Imagine the USA in Afghanistan, needing to keep 30,000 troops there to keep ”democracy” alive and it collapses the moment they leave, after 20 years.
Or French in Algeria, committing genocide to keep Algerians oppressed, and yet being kicked out by 100 years.
Ottomans were in the Balkans for 700 years and didn’t station troops anywhere or genocide anyone: proof, your meme Balkan nationalities are alive and strong, with only increasing population throughout the Ottoman Empire’s reign.
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The Ottomans were slow to subjugate the South Slavs and even while subdued the Slavic peoples in the Balkans waged small scale pseudo-wars against the Ottomans, many of them securing their own de-facto independence at one point or another.
The Ottomans were dealt humiliating defeats by minor Slavic nobility and to add further insult, the Ottoman upper class had substantial influence directly or indirectly from the Slavs whom they erroneously viewed as subdued barbarians.
It’s one of the most brutal table-turns in history, whereby the turks even in victory look like a parade of cowardly rabble incapable of physical, intellectual, or cultural dominance, then throughout the subjugation via onslaught of numerous low caste turks flooding into the region, the Slavs win a cultural victory over the turks by becoming the most affluent group among higher echelon Ottoman society. Eventually the Ottoman Empire began to resemble an extension of the Balkans into Asia Minor rather than the other way around, and certainly not an Extension of Turkestan in central Asia into Anatolia let alone Europe proper.
The joke had to end at some point but not without one last punchline, and in typical Anglo fashion they the Anglos apply their dry humor and hand the Ottomans a consolation victory, more the result of Anglo ineptitude than Ottoman tactical genius, and one lone Anglo leads a band of Arabs to crush the Ottomans from within, leading the formal Dismantling of the Ottoman "Empire" at the end of the first world war, which was coincidentally started as a result of South Slavs desiring freedom from Austria Hungary, an Empire which assisted in their liberation from the Ottomans.-
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I don’t have a horse in the race, turks and Slav(e)s are both on the periphery of my interest. But turks were brutalized by Slavs on every level from common men fighting wars of liberation/subjugation to landed nobles and aristocrats imposing personal views on those beneath them regardless of origin.
turks arent european either, they are a mongreloid race of sterile asiatics mixed with the civil refuse of old armenia.
The armenian genocide was an act of self hatred stemming from turkish insecurity about their dubious origins.
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holy cope
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Close proximity to their capital made Balkans strategically important to their empire.
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Reminder anatolian roaches but larping rapebabies
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*are nothing but
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Balkanoids were made to be independent
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>Pakis and Turks lose arguments for literal hours
>get mad and report Svetovid to whom they’ve lost to
>once they’re sure he’s banned, write dozen responses with impunity
There’s a reason why you were raped by non-Muslims for the past several hundred years, and still are non-Muslim neo-colonies -
That is, support a small terrorist separatist org, give them legitimacy, retcon alleged discrimination despite none actually existing (Kurds are full Turkish citizens all over Turkey and can speak/do whatever they want), and then try to bully/terrorize Turkey into accepting a foreign vassal statelet from Turkish territory.
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Imagine actually claiming the Balkans weren’t shit during Ottoman times.
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Already addressed. Also, source please?
Also also, it’s a lot of mountainous terrain, not ideal industrial clay.
Also also also why don’t you go watch some Jordan Peterson and take responsibility for your shithole? Ottomans haven’t been there for 100-200 years in most cases. Go cry about communists or world wars or Russia or Austria or some shit you scrotebrains.
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>Bulgaria
>mountainous-
>Plains occupy about one third of the territory, while plateaus and hills occupy 41%
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Before the Ottomans – Medieval Serbia manufactured either the majority, or nearly all of Europe’s silver and was extremely wealthy for its size, after the Ottomans, all of its economy ran on PIG. The same can be said for Bosnia, which was a major manufacturer of gold, silver, iron, and steel, and after the Ottoman rule, all it subsided on was agriculture.
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Source?
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The majority of silver (and gold, I forgot to add) was mined and manufactured at Novo Brdo – the most important trade and mining center of Medieval Serbia during 14th and 15th centuries, Kosovo and Metohija province, present-day southern Serbia.
Novo Brdo was one of the most important urban, mining and trading centers of Medieval Serbia and Europe, famous for exploiting gold and silver ore in quantities that appeased a continental-wide demand. Castle has 8 towers, and several archaeological excavations revealed remains of many significant buildings, such as churches and palaces, and numerous interesting findings, such as pottery, garden gnomeelry, weapons and objects for everyday use from the Medieval period. The town even had its own Codex which regulated mining activities and organisation and social life in Novo Brdo.
This town was one of the main centers of garden gnomeelry production in Medieval Serbia. Besides local masters, garden gnomeelers from Byzantine empire and Adriatic coast have worked there, producing beautiful pieces of garden gnomeelry, under both Byzantine and western European influences, as well as local traditions.
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Where does it say that the Ottomans decided to shut down silver and gold mines because they hate economic development?
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no one said the Otto. decided to shut down mines, but that Ottomans were notoriously inept at governing European territories, and that Ottoman rule dragged the region to the gutter, that’s as apparent as it gets in Serbia, from holding a monopoly on Silver manufacture as an independent state to running entirely on PIG after Ottoman rule.
Also, Ottoman economy policy was notoriously provisionist, all trade dynamics were woke af on increasing or supplying the abundance of goods in population centres. It meant overall centralization of surplus from different regions towards the capitals, Istanbul, Edirne and Bursa, and a handful of semi-administrative centres such as Belgrad, Prizren or Aleppo. Thus, including Anatolia and perhaps more significantly Egypt, most of the dominions of the empire succumbed to the policy of feeding up Constantinople with welfare and luxury. The sultanate might have seen it a matter of interior safety assurance to keep the capital economically satisfied, especially after considering the city as the headquarters of famously troublesome Janissary and their rebellions, but yet it doesn’t change the fact that general imperial policy stripped the riches of provinces out and took Anatolia back to pre-Seljuk era when it had again been ruled from Constantinople by a resembling economy policy.
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No gold mine is inexhaustible. Many have been exhausted by 1700 already.
The rest is your bullshit.vassals? lol no, cope more
from 1799:
"We Sultan Selim-Emir, sis of the Sun and cousin of the Moon, reigning from heaven to earth, from East to West, sultan of all sultans, give to the knowledge of our visirs, pashas and cadis, in Bosnia , Hercezgowine, Albania and Macedonia, which are neighboring countries of Montenegro, that the Montenegrins have never been subject to our court, so that they will be welcomed at our borders, and we hope that these will act in the same way towards our subjects"Source?
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Except for the mines don’t just run out like that. Unlike your cope warehouse, Eşek.
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1. None of the mines ran out, they’re still in use.
2. Montenegro and Zeta were never conquered by the time, neither were they ever made a vassal, this is a universally known fact, barring Turkey it seems, but that in itself tells us that Turks are also aware of it, but are coping hard.
3. What’s with you and 1389, Medieval Serbia was conquered in 1459, and permanently liberated in 1815.Also: "Without formally declaring an end to the peace treaty, Sultan Mehmed II invaded Serbia in mid-July 1454. Much of central Serbia fell, but the capital was well-prepared and the Ottomans, upon hearing that Hunyadi would cross the Danube to reinforce the Serbs, soon lifted their siege of Smederevo. The Sultan retreated back to Sofia with loot and slaves, leaving most of his army at Kruševac. A smaller Serbian army under Voivode Nikola Skobaljić, which was in Dubočica, cut off from the north, defeated an Ottoman army near Leskovac on September 24, while the main army under Đurađ Branković, together with Hungarian force led by Hunyadi, crushed the Ottomans at Kruševac, capturing their commander, Firuz-bey.[18][16]. But these successes only bought little time. Nikola Skobaljić’s resistance, which due to his army’s low numbers came to be respected by the Turks themselves, was crushed by another Ottoman force on November 16 and he was executed. In the early spring of 1455, the Sultan continued his invasion of Serbia. This time, the Ottomans focused on taking southern Serbia first. Novo Brdo was besieged with heavy cannons and fell on June 1, 1455, after forty days of resistance.[19][20]
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We all know you would be colonizing Mars and the richest country on earth if not for the ottomans. scrotebrain delusional scum.
Go do a province by province comparison with the USA and Europe too. Like I said, one valley in Germany, one city in France, and two cities In England are distorting their own averages.
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religious tolerance unironically
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By having their heads fly off of their shoulders all across the aforementioned penninsula. simple as
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