How did scots highlanders become emblematic of scotland as a whole? They won few battles

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    • #193022
      Anonymous
      Guest

      How did scots highlanders become emblematic of scotland as a whole? The highlanders won few battles and had their shit pushed in continually by the lowlanders. Bagpipes are hardly a highlander invention and the kilt itself was invented by an englishman. Meanwhile lowland scotland and the border reivers are completely forgotten even though they contributed far more to history than the highlanders ever did
      What caused this?

    • #193023
      Anonymous
      Guest

      because when the British empire went from being heckin epic to le evil the the eyes of the world and UK culture the Scots pulled a fast one and distanced them selves from the empire as if they had been just another oppressed country and not a willing participant.
      The only group in Scotland that was actively anti-UK/British were the hicks the the highlands that had always been more independent even in middleages as they could always fuck off the the highlands and ignore whatever the Scottish king and nobility were wanted as they only really controlled the low lands in the south. The highlanders were eventually brought to heel in the early modern era, mainly at the behest of the low land nobility and king. By this time the lowlands were protestant and very active in the politics and governance of the UK, with the highlanders being Catholic Jacobins

      So in the end now 400ish years later after they were finally conquered and subsumed fully into
      The kingdom of Scotland the society that did so larps as them inorder to distance themselves form both England and the empire the enthusiastically participated in. Somewhat ironically they do this while rabidly supporting thier nations continued participation in the EU, another united political block in it’s infancy sliding ever more towards centralization under German/French domination

    • #193024
      Anonymous
      Guest

      >Meanwhile lowland scotland and the border reivers are completely forgotten
      Only by yankee fuckwits like yourself.

      • #193035
        Anonymous
        Guest

        Same reason scandis pretend to be Vikings despite 1000 years of being normal continental Christians
        You pick what make you different, not the same

        since they you know kept all of scotlands culture from foreign influence as you know every historian records

        >lowlanders
        not a thing.

        Scots literally ignore the entirety of the country below glasgow and edinburgh in favour of some made up highland identity that never existed in the first place.
        How much art, books, film and media exists about the highlanders compared to the border reivers? How many people think all of scotland wears kilts and speaks gaelic?
        It’s like if all canadians decided to LARP as quebec fur trappers and started wearing fur coats and pretended that french was spoken in places newfoundland and vancouver.

        • #193036
          Anonymous
          Guest

          Not entirely fair as a representation. You’re leaving out the fact that anti-Highlander racism in Scotland was a real thing until recently. Just because they sometimes dress up in kilts doesn’t mean a lot of Lowland Scots didn’t despise Highlanders until a few decades ago.

        • #193038
          Anonymous
          Guest

          Not really? All historians say the people in the Highlands retained the closest thing to original Scottish culture so that’s why people were interested.

          Not entirely fair as a representation. You’re leaving out the fact that anti-Highlander racism in Scotland was a real thing until recently. Just because they sometimes dress up in kilts doesn’t mean a lot of Lowland Scots didn’t despise Highlanders until a few decades ago.

          >f Lowland Scots didn’t despise Highlanders until a few decades ago.
          hahaahhaaha

          • #193039
            Anonymous
            Guest

            >Not really? All historians say the people in the Highlands retained the closest thing to original Scottish culture so that’s why people were interested.
            congratulations for not knowing anything about scotland
            "original scottish culture" makes no sense. Do you mean the picts? Or the angles? Or the pre germanic brythonic people who inhabited southern scotland? do you realise that gaelic is hardly native to scotland, as it was introduced by the irish?

            • #193040
              Anonymous
              Guest

              >"original scottish culture" makes no sense.
              The culture Scotland was founded on?
              This is very early by an English writer called Bartholomew
              "But in the present time many Scots have changed the manners of the original race in considerable measure and for the better, as a result of intermixture with the English. However the wood-dwelling Scots (silvestres Scoti) and the Irish take pride in following in the footsteps of their fathers in dress, language, sustenance and other habits. Indeed in a sense they reject the ways of others in preference to their
              own."

              >do you realise that gaelic is hardly native to scotland
              that isnt really true and is woke af of a medieval myth and further the myth states those men were the scots so you dont exactly have an argument.

              • #193041
                Anonymous
                Guest

                >that isnt really true and is woke af of a medieval myth and further the myth states those men were the scots so you dont exactly have an argument.
                it’s debated among historians whether the dal riata was formed by conquest or was always there.

                • #193042
                  Anonymous
                  Guest

                  >dal riata
                  that has not much to do with scotland forming.
                  it was conquered in 741 and made into a fief and then finally in 884 it was fully annexed and disappeared in all forms.

                  • #193043
                    Anonymous
                    Guest

                    You realise that gaelic culture isn’t native to Scotland?
                    Highlanders are more foreign to scotland than lowlanders are

                    • #193044
                      Anonymous
                      Guest

                      >t gaelic culture isn’t native to Scotland?
                      Yes it is. Unless Scot means something other than "Gael" according to you.
                      There’s no such thing as a Highlander or a Lowlander and never was.
                      The Lowlands was divided into several regions which were equally as apart from each other as the Highlands to the Lowland regions.

                      • #193045
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        Please tell me how gaelics who invaded scotland are more native than the Angles who invaded scotland a hundred years before

                      • #193046
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        The Scottish people invaded Scotland before recorded history began so you’re argument is already null but the Angles have nothing to do with Scotland and were always regarded as English. Nothing about the English of the South East of Scotland survived by the late 12th century.

                      • #193047
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        Gaelic larper COPE

                      • #193048
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        No? The South East English had nothing to do with Scotland or any culture or language in it

                      • #193049
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        You’re talking to a well-known eccentric who believes the Scottish Gaels are are descendants of Celtic Belgic tribes and the Irish are a daughter race of the Scottish Gaels rather than vice versa

                        He’s completely wrong but I sympathise with his dislike of those who would marginalise the Scottish Gaels away as a foreign irrelevance to Scotland on account of their Irish origins

                      • #193050
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        No I don’t? You might need a life if you’re making profiles for an anonymous imageboard.

                      • #193051
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        You post every single day in the Irish general on /int/ and have done for years, unless there are several UK flag posters who write with similar diction obsessed with proving the Belgic origin of the Scots to the Irish on LULZ

                      • #193052
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        I don’t go to /int/
                        >ith proving the Belgic origin of the Scots t
                        i never mentioned that and dont know what youre talking about

                      • #193053
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        Apologies. I may be mistaken, but there is a prolific Scottish poster on /int/ whose schtick is this and he also he replies to every mention of "the Lowlands" with "there’s no such thing" or "doesn’t exist"

          • #193056
            Anonymous
            Guest

            No? The South East English had nothing to do with Scotland or any culture or language in it

            both answers massively wrong from the esl scrote. Stop larping you know nothing. No actual historian would ever say something as scrotebrained as "the people in the Highlands retained the closest thing to original Scottish culture so that’s why people were interested" let alone "all" the garden gnometubers you get this bullshit from are not real historians scrotebrain. Its blindingly obvious you have never even set foot in Scotland let alone the highlands. Now do us all a favour and have a nice day.

        • #193055
          Anonymous
          Guest

          >Allow me to tell you about your country

    • #193025
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Border Reivers became the modern day Ulster brainlets you see now. And plus they contributed a lot to the formation of Americans too. Speaks a lot for itself

      • #193030
        Anonymous
        Guest

        Where did you find your image OP? It looks more like an Irish gallowglass (saffron léine, conical helmet, claymore, chainmail armour) than a Highlander or reiver.

        Most Ulster Scots are descended from settlers from the west of Scotland, specifically Galloway and Ayrshire, not the Anglo-Scottish border. The surviving descendants of the border reivers in Ulster tend to be Anglican (Episcopalian) rather than Presbyterian and fall into the Anglo-Irish rather than the Scots-Irish bracket. They’d be the demographic of the UUP rather than the DUP.

        • #193054
          Anonymous
          Guest

          The latter part is horseshit.
          >Most Ulster Scots are descended from settlers from the west of Scotland
          Plenty of the original settlers came from the borders. Immigration was encouraged at the start because of the problem of the Border reivers, as a result there was plenty of immigration from Northern England, their was lots from the south-west in the initial wave of Planters, less so from places like Ayrshire. It wasn’t until the end of the 17th century that Scots became the dominate origin of planters in Ulster and even then by that stage they were coming from more areas across the Lowlands.
          >The surviving descendants of the border reivers in Ulster tend to be Anglican…
          Most Ulster-Scots will have mixed heritage of English and Scottish there is no way you can make such assumptions, especially when there was plenty of non-conformist in Northern England who may of migrated.
          >…rather than Presbyterian
          Again, plenty of English who subscribed to a reformed theology, maybe not a majority or a very large minority, but you can’t pass such broad interpretations. The same can be said of thinking that all the Scottish settlers would be Presbyterian and none be Episcopalians.
          >[they would] fall into the Anglo-Irish rather than the Scots-Irish bracket.
          Only if you subscribe to a theory that you cannot be ulster-scots if you are either CoI or a methodist, which is scrotebrained. Anyway "Anglo-Irish" is most often referring to the Protestant Ascendancy class of major landowners and country gentry who dominated politics, the law and the economy I don’t really see how you can claim working class Ulster Protestants who are Anglicans can be counted as anglo-irish in that sense. As Brendan Behan said an Anglo-Irishman is a protestant with a horse.
          >[they vote] UUP rather than the DUP.
          Maybe 40 or 50 years ago, not today.
          >Scots-Irish
          >t.amerilard
          Instant giveaway.

          • #193057
            Anonymous
            Guest

            >Plenty of the original settlers came from the borders.
            Yes, but how many Ulster Scots are descended from the original settlers? Many of the original settlers fled to Scotland after the 1641 rebellion, not counting those who were killed or displaced by the rebellion itself. Ulster Scots today are descended mostly from those who came later in the seventeenth century, particularly the Seven Ill Years. As you said it wasn’t until the end of the 17th century that Scots became the dominate origin of planters in Ulster. It also wasn’t until then that Protestants had a firm demographic hold over Ulster either. If it weren’t for this later influx the Ulster plantation would probably have not been very different from the Munster plantation in its eventual demographic impact.

            >Most Ulster-Scots will have mixed heritage of English and Scottish there is no way you can make such assumptions, especially when there was plenty of non-conformist in Northern England who may of migrated.
            Welsh, Huguenots, native Irish converts contributed to the genepool too. I’m not denying the Ulster Scots have a diverse ethnic origin. I’m just making the point that most are not descended primarily from Border Reivers.

            >Scots-Irish
            >t.amerilard
            >Instant giveaway.
            I was replying to a (presumably) American poster so used an American term to help explain. Besides, Scots-Irish isn’t an awful term. It’s naturally suggested by the use of "Anglo-Irish"

            • #193058
              Anonymous
              Guest

              Scots-Irish is a poor term as it implies a heavy mix of native Irish heritage which is generally not the case.
              >but how many Ulster Scots are descended from the original settlers
              Probably more than you think there are still plenty of English names among Ulster Protestants. Plus the seething potato scrote mentioned their impact in America and plenty of them will have had English as well as Scots roots.
              >Ulster Scots today are descended mostly
              "mostly" how much is "mostly"? But anyway you stated the south-west of Scotland specifically originally, which isn’t the case.
              >If it weren’t for this later influx the Ulster plantation would probably have not been very different from the Munster plantation in its eventual demographic impact.
              Munster was different in many respects from the very start, Ulster would have always had the bigger impact. Although you’re right in that the demographics would be different and the later influx around the 1690s did have a very big affect, but the the wars in the 1640s and the eventual settlement also had a big role in the change of demographics in Ulster. But not all of these came from the south-west or just the borders, but from a much broader area of Scotland that the pre-rebellion planters.

              • #193059
                Anonymous
                Guest

                >Scots-Irish is a poor term as it implies a heavy mix of native Irish heritage which is generally not the case.

                Does Anglo-Irish imply a heavy mix of Irish heritage too? I’d reckon the Scots-Irish have more Irish blood on average than the Anglo-Irish do

                >Probably more than you think there are still plenty of English names among Ulster Protestants. Plus the seething potato scrote mentioned their impact in America and plenty of them will have had English as well as Scots roots.

                Scotland and England have many surnames in common, and as well as that Irish names in Ulster tended to be more extensively Anglicised. Ó Broin becoming Burns instead of O’Byrne etc.

                >"mostly" how much is "mostly"? But anyway you stated the south-west of Scotland specifically originally, which isn’t the case.

                I’m not advocating a fringe theory. It’s common knowledge, or at least it was before David Hackett Fischer wrote his fascinating but massively inaccurate Albion’s Seed, that most Ulster Scots are descended from famine refugees from southwestern Scotland. Fischer and the American material from which he drew is the source for the meme-idea that most Ulster Scots are Borderers

                >Munster was different in many respects from the very start, Ulster would have always had the bigger impact. Although you’re right in that the demographics would be different and the later influx around the 1690s did have a very big affect, but the the wars in the 1640s and the eventual settlement also had a big role in the change of demographics in Ulster. But not all of these came from the south-west or just the borders, but from a much broader area of Scotland that the pre-rebellion planters.

                Why was Munster different? Answer: because it wasn’t adjacent to a part of Britain. Ulster was different because it was right beside western Scotland, facilitating a steady influx from western Scotland. I’m not denying that Ulster Scots came from all over, I’m just refuting the meme that they’re mainly reivers

                • #193066
                  Anonymous
                  Guest

                  >Does Anglo-Irish imply a heavy mix of Irish heritage too?
                  No, but the only reason mutts use "scots-irish" is because they are scrotebrained and don’t know where Ulster is.
                  >I’d reckon the Scots-Irish have more Irish blood on average than the Anglo-Irish do
                  No, if anything its more likely to be the other way round. Again, you are stupid reddit-spacing mutt who doesn’t know shit so stop posting.
                  >Scotland and England have many surnames in common,
                  Yes, but names like ‘Simpson’ and ‘Robinson’ are more commonly found in England than Scotland and the stuff about anglicisation is irrelevant for the most part as we are talking about Ulster Protestants, only a small proportion of which are native Irish converts.
                  >Fischer and the American material from which he drew is the source for the meme-idea that most Ulster Scots are Borderers
                  Again, I’m not saying many didn’t come from the south-west, but its inaccurate to say most came from the south-west. Ulster-Scots are also descendants of border reivers, that isn’t a fringe theory. In the early 18th century the British in Ulster numbered about 250 to 300,000, the top estimate for arrivals in the 1690s from Scotland are about 80,000. Again "most" is not an accurate figure.
                  >Why was Munster different? Answer…
                  Oh, that is a key difference in the population make up, and with later trade and industrialisation, and the close links between Ulster and the West of Scotland are a recurring historical point but, the plantations in Munster are very different for other reasons as well. The position and the control by native lords, the Munster plantation was destroyed on at least one occasion, population spread was different, number of settlers was way larger in Ulster than it had ever been in Munster this was again by design from lessons learned of the failure from Munster and other plantations, discrimination was much more entrenched, couldn’t sell land to irish, imported tennants must be Protestant.

                  • #193069
                    Anonymous
                    Guest

                    >No, if anything its more likely to be the other way round. Again, you are stupid reddit-spacing mutt who doesn’t know shit so stop posting.

                    Jonathan Bardon is the leading contemporary historian of the Ulster Plantation and he says almost all Ulster Scots aside from recent immigrants have Irish blood in their veins.

                    In my original post

                    Where did you find your image OP? It looks more like an Irish gallowglass (saffron léine, conical helmet, claymore, chainmail armour) than a Highlander or reiver.

                    Most Ulster Scots are descended from settlers from the west of Scotland, specifically Galloway and Ayrshire, not the Anglo-Scottish border. The surviving descendants of the border reivers in Ulster tend to be Anglican (Episcopalian) rather than Presbyterian and fall into the Anglo-Irish rather than the Scots-Irish bracket. They’d be the demographic of the UUP rather than the DUP.

                    which triggererd your rage I simplified slightly, but that is because Irish history is complex enough that in order to correct memes and misconceptions you sometimes have to tell "little lies" which serve as the timber over which you you will layer the mortar and plaster and detail and nuance, just as in physics teachers sometimes simplify information about more advanced physics in order to make immediate concepts more comprehensible.

                    All I’m doing is trying to correct the meme that Ulster folk are an extension of the Borders rather than an extension of the sea-highway of western Scotland.

                    Fine Ulster manners you have sir.

                    • #193070
                      Anonymous
                      Guest

                      >he says almost all Ulster Scots aside from recent immigrants have Irish blood in their veins.
                      In what text does he say this? I’ve read a couple of his books and he definitely doesn’t say this in ‘Plantation of Ulster’ and I don’t recall him saying this in ‘A history of Ulster’, if you could give a proper citation. But anyway, when are these mixed marriages supposed to have occurred, other historians have pointed to a distinct lack of intermarriage between Protestants and Catholics in both the 19th and 20th centuries and those that did occur pre-ww1 were happening in areas where protestant families were rare, ie the south and not Ulster. Added to that the very agreed upon situation that the reformation failed in Ireland and that the vast majority of native Irish did not convert, and in fact I think several historians have stated that the catholic church became stronger and more organised in Ulster. In fact many of the converts in the 17th and 18th century from catholicism to protestantism will be by settler families originally from the Anglo-Scottish border regions, who only later converted.
                      >recent immigrants have Irish blood in their veins.
                      Immigration to Ulster even from Scotland dropped off at the start of the 18th century, immigration to North America was more popular destination. So what is recent in that respect?

                      • #193071
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >In what text does he say this? I’ve read a couple of his books and he definitely doesn’t say this in ‘Plantation of Ulster’ and I don’t recall him saying this in ‘A history of Ulster’, if you could give a proper citation.

                        I can!

                        >In short, the descendants of natives and newcomers in Ulster became almost inextricably intermingled. A cursory glance at registers in segregated schools past and present shows many British surnames in Catholic rollbooks and Irish surnames in Protestant ones. Genealogists have uncovered a far greater degree of religious conversion and native-planter, Catholic-Protestant intermarriage than might be expected.
                        The Plantation of Ulster (2011), p 343.

        • #193063
          Anonymous
          Guest

          Gallowglasses were from the Western Isles of Scotland. Their name means "foreign Gaels".

          • #193065
            Anonymous
            Guest

            By the time they had become a distinct caste with a distinct hereditary niche in Ireland with recognisably distinct equipment they were assimilated into Irish society and distinguishable from Scots. At the time period in which we have descriptions and illustrations of gallowglasses the apparel once common to Gaelic Scotland and Ireland (for instance saffron léinte) had become extinct in Scotland. The combination of chainmail with saffron-dyed textiles therefore suggests the figure in the OP is an Irish gallowglass

    • #193026
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Same reason scandis pretend to be Vikings despite 1000 years of being normal continental Christians
      You pick what make you different, not the same

    • #193028
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Modern civilized people are stale and boring, primitive savages are interesting and mysterious, and so the latter gets romanticized alot more than the former.

    • #193031
      Anonymous
      Guest

      since they you know kept all of scotlands culture from foreign influence as you know every historian records

    • #193032
      Anonymous
      Guest

      >lowlanders
      not a thing.

      • #193037
        Anonymous
        Guest

        schizo

    • #193061
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Because they were the purest expression of what made Scotland literally Scot-land. Its Scottish Gaelic identity was clear cut, whereas the Lowlands have a slightly more confused sense of identity. They call themselves Scots and see themselves as different from the English, but spoke a type of English, had social system imported by the Normans, and were descended from a mix of Gaels, Anglo-Saxons, Normans, Britons and Picts.

      • #193062
        Anonymous
        Guest

        Not necessarily. They considered themselves up to a certain point the same people as the Irish. Scotia/Scotland originally meant Ireland. Ireland was considered "Scotia Major" and Scotland was "Scotia Minor"

        It’s a bit like how France is named after the Franks who are basically the Flemish/Dutch

        • #193064
          Anonymous
          Guest

          Yeah I know that. Which is why Scottishness is seen as more purely represented by the Gaelic highlands. I’m not saying this is necessarily the case, but Lowlander identity is a much more hybrid thing. Not that the two cultures are really separate to any huge extent across most of Scotland. Certainly parts of the Western Isles stand out as distinctly Gaelic, but most of Scotland is now English speaking and there was substantial migration of Highlanders into the Lowlands and vice versa in the last two centuries to the point that the bulk of Scotland now has a broadly similar culture. Its definitely not the stark cultural division it would have been at one time.

    • #193068
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Because without the Highlands, Scotland is basically just a province of England.

    • #193072
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Ulster bogtrotters who deny they’re bogtrotters are cringe

      • #193073
        Anonymous
        Guest

        Don’t cut yourself edgy scrotebrain, you haven’t a clue what you are talking about. Go back to sucking scrote cock you subhuman fenian scum.

        • #193074
          Anonymous
          Guest

          >Ulster poster
          >Reference to black penises
          Checks out

          Is it true that the Orange Order teaches that us Fenians are literally black people who turned white? Or are you oath-bound not disclose?

        • #193075
          Anonymous
          Guest

          God bless Ulsters native fenians. You beady-eyed angloid orange black bastard yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeo!

    • #193077
      Anonymous
      Guest
    • #193079
      Anonymous
      Guest

      the lowlands were more kino, especially pre norman era where the anglo tribes werent that disconnected in ways of life to the celts
      most celtic art associated with the celts today was produced in the well educated parts along the english and irish border, and while i cant say much for the pre-christian era i bet it was about the same

    • #193080
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Is there any genetic evidence to suggest that scottish gaels are actually gaelic? Genuinely curious as there is no substantial evidence in terms of archaeological finds or changes in regional customs or what have you to suggest an actual migration from Ulster ever took place (beyond the obvious cultural gaelicization and adopting of traditions etc). The only scots I’m aware of with distinctly Ulsterian genetic markers are galloway ones because of the influx of raiders from inishowen

    • #193081
      Anonymous
      Guest

      because lowland scotland (where most people actually live) are anglos + brythonic celts LARPing as gaels so pretend to be highlanders

    • #193082
      Anonymous
      Guest

      […]

      The ‘wildmen’ anglo/borders settlers were being extirpated by native ulstermen before the largescale military intervention that ensued

    • #193083
      Anonymous
      Guest

      […]

      Why make a great distinction between Highlanders, Borderers and Irishmen when all were considered criminals and thieves by the English for their heroic pastoralism and renowned internationally as soldiers, with the Irish the best regarded and the Borderers the least regarded of the three?

      If we are to rank the Irishman against the Scotsman as a soldier look at Benburb 1646. If we are to rank the Highlander relative to the Borderer look at the renown in which the Highlander was held by the British military relative to the southerner.

      >>their ethnic dress, the kilt, was invented by an englishman, and their musical instrument has been used and played all over europe and is hardly limited to scotland

      Tartan and plaid were long-established in Scotland. An Englishmen simplifying and economising the dress means very little, especially given English pressure to adopt the curtailed English form of the dress.

      >>those who did end up going overseas only settled as fishermen in newfoundland or eastern carolina, have no cultural impact at all

      Most of Australia is named after Lachlan Macquarrie

      >One of these is remembered in literaure, film and television whilst the other is completely obscure and forgotten about, only remembered by those with an interest in northern english and lowland scottitsh history

      Scottish envy of Gaelic Ireland, the antiquarian fraud of Macpherson, Europe’s fascination with its Celtic past, the limited interest in the crimes and feuds of English-speaking criminals before the arrival of the western genre

      • #193084
        Anonymous
        Guest

        >borders
        >considered criminals and theives by the english
        you do know the borderers were english, right?
        delusional plastic paddy

      • #193085
        Anonymous
        Guest

        So what’s the resident munster autists take on the view that highlanders aren’t ethnically gaelic but rather Argyll was gaelicized as a result of existing within the same cultural milieu as Ulster? Being a maritime people virtually connected to Northeast Antrim and being isolated from the other scottish celts largely due to the highland massif. The theory was propagated by some scottish revisionist called ewan campbell who was trying to undermine Ulsters claims to scotland, but given the sheer depravity of highlanders I’d be glad to cut ties with them also. The idea that west coast ones were indigenous to that region and their gaelic identity is just a larp following from Ulsters influence seems more plausible than the notion of an invasion, whether it be large or lowscale. It was common practice back then to assume the names of prominent families and doctor genealogical records to strengthen alliances and legitimize power – the northern O’Neill did it themselves

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