Could there be any sort of rational or scientific backing for “astrology”?

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    • #54619
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Could there be any sort of rational backing for a phenomenon interpreted as "astrology"?

      Of course the star sign woo-woo is complete bullshit, and I’m extremely, extremely skeptical that there’s anything to it in general –

      But keeping an open mind does require considering the plausibility of there hypothetically being some kind of seasonality-correlated phenomenon that could cause people with close birthdays to be more likely to share certain traits

      Like just to give a totally random example, maybe in a certain region there could be an increase in the concentration of a certain pollutant during March – April of every year, so maybe every baby in that region conceived around March – April could get particularly exposed to it at the earliest stage of development, causing babies born around December – January to all be more likely to exhibit some common traits caused by that exposure, or whatever

      Is there any possible evidence for anything like that for any given area? I’m very doubtful, but it’s interesting to think about I suppose

    • #54620
      Anonymous
      Guest

      All I know is that airheaded girls around me talk about it all the time like it’s a thing. I just ignore them.

      • #54621
        Anonymous
        Guest

        Even if there actually somehow were the slightest correlation, it’d still make all the believers just as annoying and dumb since they’re basically doing the equivalent of counting epicycles or thinking bacteria spontaneously form inside of things

        Just curious if there could be any tie to reality whatsoever, because I’ve always considered it 100% bullshit and still do, but figured I should try to be open to the possibility that there could be some kind of birthday cluster effect in some cases

        • #54647
          Anonymous
          Guest

          People recognize patterns even where there are none. It’s why you see faces in cars

        • #54695
          Anonymous
          Guest

          the position of the sun affects the light cast on the ground. this + positioning affects how things grow from water and moisture. its why plants grow with certain trunk movements and why their branches twist and turn depending on where they are planted

          the moon also has affects. consider the growth of frost occurring more or less during full or crescent moons. consider the strength of tides

          now the idea is that during germination the human is growing more or less this way or that way woke af on the position of the sun and the moon, as a result of their respective influences. how the ancients determined the 12 various influences and their archetypes, i have no idea atm, but the concept above should give you the idea of how it could easily be a possible science

    • #54622
      Anonymous
      Guest

      sounds extremely chaotic but the data is probably there if you look for it

    • #54624
      Anonymous
      Guest

      No, there is uncomprehencable amount of stars in the observable universe and it makes no sense for some of them to have an effect on biological makeup of not yet born children

      • #54625
        Anonymous
        Guest

        Read my actual post please

        • #54641
          Anonymous
          Guest

          Those stars or constellations have a negligible effect on the earth. I dont see any connections between them and pollutants

          • #54643
            Anonymous
            Guest

            The astrological signs don’t line up with the constellations anymore anyway; they’re basically just old names for months.

    • #54626
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Kary Mullis wrote a small article about this. He was convinced there was something to it since it stuck around for so long and seems to hold for enough people that it must work on some level, even if we have no idea why. It was an interesting read, as most of what Kary Mullis wrote tends to be.

      • #54627
        Anonymous
        Guest

        That’s intriguing, though this is my first time hearing about this guy and he appears to be known for claiming HIV doesn’t cause AIDS, there’s no ozone depletion in the atmosphere, there’s no anthropogenic climate change, and these are all conspiracies perpetrated by governments, environmentalists, and scientists.

        Sounds to me like he’s just a kneejerk contrarian or total schizo (so your typical LULZ poster), and I have no interest in reading anything from him

        • #54648
          Anonymous
          Guest

          He’s more known for revolutionising biology like almost nobody else has since Watson and Crick, but yeah whatever gets your sense of intellectual superiority going.

          • #54650
            Anonymous
            Guest

            He may very well have, and I’m in no way suggesting I’m at all intellectually superior. I just have no time to waste on crackpot insanity in fields he probably wasn’t an expert in. My issue is with his claims (HIV causing AIDS / ozone depletion / AGW are fake and conspiracies by the government and scientists), not his intellect or his achievements.

            Watson of Watson and Crick has also done and said a ton of crazy things. It doesn’t invalidate his discovery; his discovery just doesn’t validate him as always right

            like the thing where being born early in the school year gives you an advantage over those born later than you which accumulate over you formative years?
            you should read a summary of Malcolm Gladwell’s book Outliers to get the general idea

            I’ve read that and that does make sense, but I think that’s kind of a different thing. But, yes, same general principle

            • #54656
              Anonymous
              Guest

              you are asking about astrology. there is no such thing as someone who is an expert in astrology
              the best someone can do is offer someone who is clearly smart, and who has some unusual ideas, and this was posted as nothing more than a curios comment, but you immediately dismissed him as a "schizo" for being a proponent of astrology
              so you have an issue of wanting to sincerely discuss a fringe idea, but you also want to call people with fringe ideas schizos

              • #54660
                Anonymous
                Guest

                >but you immediately dismissed him as a "schizo" for being a proponent of astrology
                ??? No, not at all. In fact the remark about him hypothesizingthat astrology could be a projection of a real phenomenon (which is also what my OP is asking/hypothesizing) sounds totally believable.

                I’m not at all judging him for his belief on astrology. I’m solely judging his claims that HIV doesn’t cause AIDS, that ozone depletion in the atmosphere isn’t real, that AGW isn’t real, and that additionally all three are conspiracies propagated by governments and scientists. Those, and only those, to me indicate he holds several delusional beliefs.

                >Could there be any sort of rational backing for a phenomenon interpreted as "astrology"?
                Combined gravity effects of planets influencing biological life somehow, but not as traditional astrology imagines it. The effect would probably be very small.

                I was trying to be explicit to prevent this but I might have done a poor job wording the OP

                I’m very much saying I don’t buy the celestial object hypothesis whatsoever. If this effect exists, celestial object position is almost certainly just a coincidental confounder, because all recurring seasonal things (like number of ice cream trucks near you) would be confounders.

                I’m asking first if the effect exists at all (correlation between birth date and average personality traits) and second what are some possible things that could maybe contribute. In another post I offered the possibility of things like seasonal cycles of pollutants, weather, temperature, something in the atmosphere or local air, ionizing radiation, noise pollution, sun/light/UV, direction/exposure/scattering, volcano activity, electromagnetic forces, differences in nutrients and compounds of plants a mother eats woke af on when the plant was grown/harvested, and potentially dozens or hundreds of other things.

                I honestly doubt the effect even exists at all or if it does my guess is it’s extremely small and mostly explained by weather or something. I just find it an interesting discussion

    • #54640
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Something psychological, like a placebo effect, perhaps?

      • #54642
        Anonymous
        Guest

        I’m sure that’s a massive part of it, but I’m asking if there could possibly be any non-placebo part of it. I think it’s unlikely but I’m just curious

        Those stars or constellations have a negligible effect on the earth. I dont see any connections between them and pollutants

        I’m not talking about stars at all though, I’m talking about the "end result" of people having supposed "birth signs".

        That is, astrology people claim that all people born in a certain month range are a Pisces or Leo or whatever, and that people in such a group all tend to be more likely to have certain traits or whatever

        I know full well that *if* that birthday correlation somehow happens to be true it would have absolutely nothing to do with celestial objects

        I’m just asking about any possible evidence that that observation (clusters of traits correlated with birth months) could actually be true, and if so how

        If it actually were true, it would at least redeem them to the extent that they’re experiencing a true phenomenon and not all just 100% falling victim to placebo, even if they’re totally wrong about the root cause of it, kind of like how scientists used to believe diseases came from germs but that the germs just spontaneously appeared out of thin air. They were observing a real thing, but just didn’t understand the fundamental origin and came up with a mythological one instead

        • #54644
          Anonymous
          Guest

          Yes, i think that you have a right perspective on that. I think that it has nothing to do with genetics, but it’s plausible that some cyclical seasonal phenomena affect traits of people that grow up. It can also be a social effect. Something like proffesional hockey players are born in first months of a year, because they are bigger than those from the end of a year and progress further thanks to that advantage

          • #54645
            Anonymous
            Guest

            I’ve heard a few temperature and weather related theories in this vein.

    • #54646
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Im a rational person, studying physics, used to argue with my mom that astrology is bullshit. But in the last few years, I started thinking. There is no law that forbids stars from setting your path upon your birth. The whole natal chart thing is woke af of where the stars were located, and in what degree, on your birth day, which gives the system more complexity than just "aquarius are usually humble ;))" and can somewhat have credibility. You see, we all know gravity and magnetic forces are never equal to zero, so technically these forces do work on humans, even though the force is extremely weak. These forces could definitely impact your life, considering the fact that they begin working differently (at a different time) on every persons birth. So these forces could direct your life, and maybe even forces we haven’t discovered yet. Anyway, my point is that we can’t prove astrology wrong. I always wanted to perform a statistical experiment, relating personality to birth date. I might as well just conduct it in my uni after corona is over.

      • #54652
        Anonymous
        Guest

        And how this miniscule gravity would impact human behavior? Yes, those stars are somewhat connected to earth but their impact is almost nothing. Because of that, their impact on something as specific as human behavior should be nothing.
        We probably cannot prove it wrong, but if you study phisics then you know that that doesnt mean a thing.

        • #54653
          Anonymous
          Guest

          What if it does mean a thing? What if these forces do somehow interact with the psyche? What if as I said, there are more forces the planets around us project on us? It’s fascinating to think about, but we’re quite far from experimenting in this field, we don’t have the technology nor the mind set for these things. Yet. Statistical experiments will have to do for now.

          • #54655
            Anonymous
            Guest

            You should be able to calculate a good approximation of the gravitational force exerted by any celestial object on any human at any given time

            But if you’re just saying "well what if there’s some other long-distance force that isn’t any of the four known forces", we’re kind of in the "what if there’s an invisible sky dragon" territory. It’s just not scientific. It’s worth being open to the possibility of more forces, but in this case if you assume that there is a birth date-personality correlation, it makes far, far more sense that there’s something local to the Earth (perhaps also the moon) that’s seasonal and that’s causing some of those correlations.

            Star positions also correlate seasonally, but so do ice cream trucks. If the phenomenon is true it’s like saying your personality is determined by how far away the closest ice cream truck is from you when you’re born. It’s just a confounder which might closely correlate but of course it would correlate, because all recurring seasonal things will correlate.

            • #54699
              Anonymous
              Guest

              >You should be able to
              Stop it, Kurisu.

      • #54654
        Anonymous
        Guest

        > There is no law that forbids stars from setting your path upon your birth. The whole natal chart thing is woke af of where the stars were located, and in what degree, on your birth day, which gives the system more complexity than just "aquarius are usually humble ;))" and can somewhat have credibility. You see, we all know gravity and magnetic forces are never equal to zero, so technically these forces do work on humans, even though the force is extremely weak.
        It’s just not plausible. Gravity follows an inverse square law. Consider how far away those stars are; Jupiter and the moon affect you far more strongly, and even those are essentially unnoticeable.

        >I always wanted to perform a statistical experiment, relating personality to birth date. I might as well just conduct it in my uni after corona is over.
        If an experiment did find a correlation between some personality traits and birth date, untangling the actual causes is the real question.

        It could be partly explained by somewhat predictably recurring seasonal weather, temperature, something in the atmosphere or local air, ionizing radiation, noise pollution, sun/light/UV direction/exposure/scattering, volcano activity, electromagnetic forces, differences in nutrients and compounds of plants a mother eats woke af on when the plant was grown/harvested, and probably tons of other things that would be really hard to account for

        That’s why I made this thread. Not to sound like an poopyhole but I’m not interested in humoring the original idea of astrology (star location at birth somehow influencing personality). If the birth date-personality correlation is sometimes real, then star position would be a totally unrelated confounder. I think there’s just no chance.

        The question is first determining if this correlation really does exist at all, and if so, secondly sussing out all the things that could possibly contribute to it, and then thirdly ideally actually proving some of the causation

      • #54697
        Anonymous
        Guest

        >Anyway, my point is that we can’t prove astrology wrong
        We also can’t prove that Jesus was not the son of God. Should I go get baptized and convert to Christianity right away?

        • #54708
          Anonymous
          Guest

          >We also can’t prove that Jesus was not the son of God.
          Yes, we can.
          >Should I go get baptized and convert to Christianity right away?
          Yes, you should.

      • #54698
        Anonymous
        Guest

        >I might as well just conduct it in my uni after corona is over
        >after corona is over
        >over
        My sweet summer child…

    • #54649
      Anonymous
      Guest

      like the thing where being born early in the school year gives you an advantage over those born later than you which accumulate over you formative years?
      you should read a summary of Malcolm Gladwell’s book Outliers to get the general idea

    • #54651
      Anonymous
      Guest

      There’s trends in birthdates being higher with a 9 month lag after cold months and Christmas.
      Plausible that common early life experiences for cavemen like your birthday always sucks because it’s cold and there’s no food would affect developing personality.

      • #54667
        Anonymous
        Guest

        >There’s trends in birthdates being higher with a 9 month lag after cold months and Christmas
        That’s because shitloads of people spend their New Year’s Eve drinking and freaking.

    • #54657
      Anonymous
      Guest

      >Could there be any sort of rational backing for a phenomenon interpreted as "astrology"?
      Combined gravity effects of planets influencing biological life somehow, but not as traditional astrology imagines it. The effect would probably be very small.

      • #54669
        Anonymous
        Guest

        You experience more gravitational interaction with a household sized appliance that just happened to be in the room or a vehicle passing by the hospital you were born in than the stars in constellations

    • #54658
      Anonymous
      Guest

      >maybe in a certain region there could be an increase in the concentration of a certain pollutant during March – April
      this is a lot more probable and could systematically affect newborns in a certain stage of development

    • #54659
      Anonymous
      Guest

      the most influential factor in my opinion is the amount of sunlight that the newborn receives in the first months after birth, and the fact that summer/winter activities of the families are different and could influence the neural development of a newborn.

      • #54662
        Anonymous
        Guest

        Yeah, this would be up there on my list of possible factors, if it’s real. I’ve been reading more and more research about how simple presence of sunlight exposure – even just a few minutes every day – drives a ton of neurological processes. Though I wouldn’t be surprised if more northern regions like Norway might have some proportion of the population with a genetic adaptation that requires less of it, or something

        >I think there’s just no chance.
        Hey you talked about astrology, I gave you my take. External factors regarding earth are more probable candidates for influencing a person since birth obviously, I’m only saying "what if".
        […]
        >we’re kind of in the "what if there’s an invisible sky dragon" territory
        Youd be extremely naive to think these four fundamental forces are all there is. Ive no proof that there is more, but ita clear there is. Humanity has only begun discovering reality, I wouldn’t be surprised if there are 50 more layers(dimensions) to the universe with forces interacting between them, unseen in some dimensions but affecting matter and energy nonetheless. Why is C the "universal speed limit"? Only time will tell.

        >Hey you talked about astrology, I gave you my take. External factors regarding earth are more probable candidates for influencing a person since birth obviously, I’m only saying "what if".
        I’m open to it, but there are different probabilities, here, and we know that things that are very far away have an incredibly small gravitational influence. Given we don’t

        >Youd be extremely naive to think these four fundamental forces are all there is. Ive no proof that there is more, but ita clear there is. Humanity has only begun discovering reality, I wouldn’t be surprised if there are 50 more layers(dimensions) to the universe with forces interacting between them, unseen in some dimensions but affecting matter and energy nonetheless.
        I think there may be more, but even if there are, we would probably also expect them to be very weak or essentially zero over incredibly long distances (like stars in distant galaxies)

        It’s just multiplying so many low probabilities. First that there is such a force, second that stars in distant galaxies exert it to a real degree on us, and third that this is stronger than all of the possible local seasonal factors

        I’m open to the idea of there being many more layers to reality we currently have no clue about, but Occam’s razor here still strongly points to the idea that the revolution of the Earth around the sun resulting in stars appearing to be in different places is a simple confounding variable just like every other thing out there that cycles on an annual fashion

        • #54663
          Anonymous
          Guest

          Ran out of space for this post, but basically what I’m trying to say is if you assume the concept of astrology had never existed but people still observed this kind of rough birth month – personality correlation effect, absolutely no one would start to assume that distant stars are causing it, just as no one would start to assume that ice cream trucks or what sports are being played outside are causing it.

          There’s just no reason whatsoever to jump to those things. They just happen to coincide because all things that cycle annually will coincide. The only reason the whole star thing is involved at all is because hundreds of years ago, outside of the birth date thing, people had lots of elaborate and wrong theories about the cosmos.

          Something that’s maybe a bit more plausible is that there’s some other kind of directional force in the universe, besides the Sun’s radiation and unrelated to our perspective of relative star positions, which hits different parts of the Earth differently at different times of year and which affects developing fetuses or infants. In that case astrology would be slightly vindicated to an extent

          But I think the specific distant-star idea is just so, so improbable. It’s not impossible but it’s like the lowest thing I’d put on the list, if you think about what it actually physically means when a star "moves" in the sky from our perspective in the context of the Earth revolving around the Sun.

          • #54665
            Anonymous
            Guest

            Astrology is passed across as a meme and suffers from many dead and unfruitful branches. Above all it is mnemonic system attached to a system of categories about human behavior. As soon as you realize that an *starsign* doesn’t need to be born within *starsign.dates* everything else makes a lot more sense. It is descriptive and not prescriptive. Continuing, the prescience of astrology is a thousand years and more of tomfoolery. What is offered is a very methodical way of obtaining perspective as celestial bodies regularly move about and everyday is offers a new consideration of categorical relationships. A primitive way of tuning the social antanae.
            I don’t study astrology at all, but I drew the conclusions when I started considering the merits of enneagrams. I don’t really know how complete astrology is in terms of categorizing behavior. Perhaps it is way off mark there as well.
            One question I’d like to find the answer to if I had literally nothing else to do: how many ancient myths are just a way to remember how to walk a thousand miles from one city to another? I get a feeling that number is close to 100%.

    • #54666
      Anonymous
      Guest

      One of the major astrology companies has a job posted for software developer. The pay and benefits are really good and the expected technology stack is something I’m experienced with. They have good ratings on Glassdoor. But it’s astrology. Other than that, it seems like it would be a great job but I might have to lie to everyone about what I do for living.

      • #54670
        Anonymous
        Guest

        Just tell them you’re a developer for a specialist entertainment company, you wouldn’t be lying

    • #54668
      Anonymous
      Guest

      The relative age effect
      Despite being a long-established and easily explained phenomena, unaware astrologers to this day still mention "most athletes are so-and-so sign ergo astrology must be legit"

    • #54671
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Dont think so bro

    • #54672
      Anonymous
      Guest

      A friend once made an observation that people born around the same time of the year will likely have similar experiences at about the same times.

    • #54673
      Anonymous
      Guest

      I am a hobbyist astronomer, and I find astrology a fun mental model to attach to an already great showing. My perspective on astrology is always growing. I don’t see it as a method of truth telling but as an exercise in thought. For instance, Jupiter lasts in each constellation for nearly a year, making a full ~12 year revolution. It would then, theoretically manifest itself in yearly differences whereas Saturn would be 2-3 year differences and higher up for the higher up and much less for the inner planets. It’s like a cosmic clock with extra hands. Of course, I am not sure to prohpetize truth. I just enjoy my fantasy along with my science, know how to keep them separate, and find astronomy and astrology by extension a huge expanse of knowledge to explore.

    • #54674
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Testosterone varies by season, mental illness is associated with season of birth with that as mechanism. See Ulrich Tran, geschwind & galaburda

    • #54675
      Anonymous
      Guest

      The way I look at it is that certain aspects of nature have a cyclical nature, people in the past used the stars and planets to time these cycles and make some sort of sense out of the universe.

    • #54676
      Anonymous
      Guest
    • #54677
      Anonymous
      Guest

      If you lived in a simulated reality where the programmer decided that the position of stars had a direct effect on your life,
      How would you disprove it anon?

      • #54678
        Anonymous
        Guest

        Also, you literally cannot say that woo-woo star sign is complete bullshit. You have no way to disprove or prove it. Nothing is certain except for …

    • #54696
      Anonymous
      Guest

      I don’t remember where I read it, but apparently Jung had an idea like yours concerning astrology, namely that it had to do with time cycles rather than with the stars themselves, and the stars simply happened to be some kind of natural clock to keep track of those cycles. Which is why he thought that the axial precession didn’t matter much and it was okay to still pretend that the stars were in the same position as they were during the days of Ptolemy, since the purpose of astrology is merely to keep track of time rather than follow the real movement of the stars.

      That being said, Jung also believed in all kinds of supernatural bullshit, so you shouldn’t listen to him without more than a grain of salt.

    • #54700
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Around 75% of women believe in this bullshit while around 90% of men don’t.

    • #54705
      Anonymous
      Guest
      • #54706
        Anonymous
        Guest

        also /thread
        this btfo’d every astrology scrote

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