Can someone explain the “illusion of self” concept in rational scientific terms?

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    • #135131
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Can someone explain the “illusion of self” concept in rational scientific terms? What exactly does it mean?

    • #135132
      Anonymous
      Guest

      >in rational scientific terms
      >rational
      No, they can’t. Make the inevitable analogy with "the illusion of chair" and watch them have a psychotic breakdown.

      • #135135
        Anonymous
        Guest

        All I was able to find were furniture optical illusions.

        • #135136
          Anonymous
          Guest

          >googling "the illusion of chair" instead of trying to understand what’s being implied

    • #135133
      Anonymous
      Guest

      It is referring to the fact that you cannot assign an owner to ‘your’ consciousness.

      • #135134
        Anonymous
        Guest

        Because “our” memories and conscious are separate, and our identity stems from “our” memories?

        • #135137
          Anonymous
          Guest

          >memories and conscious are separate
          How would you go about showing this?

          • #135139
            Anonymous
            Guest

            I guess what he’s trying to say is that consciousness is a sense of being, while the "self" is a sense of the continuity of being.

    • #135138
      Jesus
      Guest

      self is a set of habits, habits change

    • #135140
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Your brain has a mechanism for modeling and predicting what will happen in the world. One element of this is modeling and predicting what our future selves will do. What humans do is an outcome of many complex and chaotic physical processes and is impossible to model exactly, so the brain simplifies it by abstracting some sort of higher irreducible form of agency. Think of it like a linear regression — you know the process isn’t really linear, but you’re just using it to simplify and make basic predictions. Your self isn’t ‘real’, it’s just the brain trying to understand itself and predict what it’s going to do next.

      • #135141
        Anonymous
        Guest

        Woke af pop-sci midwit.

        • #135143
          Anonymous
          Guest

          You too.

      • #135208
        Anonymous
        Guest

        this notion seems to have no basis whatsoever

    • #135142
      Anonymous
      Guest

      it means nothing. scientists can’t into theology.
      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3A5qNXteTZA

    • #135144
      Anonymous
      Guest

      >explain this philosophical bullshit concept in terms of science

      • #135145
        Anonymous
        Guest

        the illusion of self is the scientific position on the philosophy of consciousness.

        • #135148
          Anonymous
          Guest

          Nope, that would be dualism.

        • #135150
          Anonymous
          Guest

          >the illusion of self is the scientific position
          It’s the IFLS position. Legitimate science doesn’t stray into that territory at all.

      • #135149
        Anonymous
        Guest

        Precisely. The self is not a scientific definition and never existed in the first place.

    • #135146
      Anonymous
      Guest

      ur life started when ur dad jizzed on some shit in ur mom’s cunt. later on ur mom shitted the cum covered part of her cunt and named it (you).
      you don’t exist as an individual person, you’re just some cum covered shit that used to be part of ur mom.
      you know how you can cut an earthworm in half and get two living worms as a result? you’re like that except instead of being cut off you were shitted out

    • #135147
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Your not really conscious or experiencing anything at the moment. That is just an illusion produced by our mind. Consciousness isnt real.

    • #135151
      Anonymous
      Guest

      There’s no such thing as a continuous self entity. Your mind is constantly changing. If we took a snapshot of your mind now and again in five minutes you will find few if any similarities whatsoever… The entire scope of experience will be different…

      Imagine existence with absolutely no ability to form memory at all. You would never have any sense of who you are or what life is etc you’d just know present experience and before you can even grasp it, it’s gone and the next moment is happening. Ad nauseum.

      It’s this idea that you are more than a changing object that allows for a sense of self. When you notice it is constantly changing you’ll realize there is no concrete persistent self there.

      • #135152
        Anonymous
        Guest

        >It’s this idea that you are more than a changing object that allows for a sense of self.
        >When you notice it is constantly changing you’ll realize there is no concrete persistent self there.
        So which one is it, you imbecile?

        • #135155
          Anonymous
          Guest

          I’m on Valium but I think those statements match. Thinking you are more than a constsntly morphing object gives a sense of some sort of persisting self thing. Realization that you AREN’T more than that destroys the idea of a persisting self. The rabbithole is semi-deep. Easy to explain but leads to much questioning.

          • #135156
            Anonymous
            Guest

            >Thinking you are more than a constsntly morphing object
            The very concept of a "constantly morphing object" already assumes there is more to it than physical states. Anyway, I wonder why people like you think "the self is an illusion" is some profound statement, but not "the chair is an illusion".

            • #135157
              Anonymous
              Guest

              I’m on a lot of Valium… Realization that objects are made of perceptions comes sooner than the realization that there is no self. Keep in mind the idea of a self entity is pretty much the most crucial element to our survival, and so its the best guarded secret of all.

              This is why I said the rabbit hole is easy to explain but deep because it leads to a long list of questioning because it’s counterintuitive to how the brain is programmed to think for survival.

            • #135161
              Anonymous
              Guest

              My take is that it is easier to grasp the idea that the Chair is only a "Chair" from our perspective. Get a little closer and it is fibers, then molecules, all the way to atoms. Sure this is a nominal point of view, but it would completely acceptable to say that the chair is an illusion because there is no such thing as a chair, it’s just an arrangement of smaller components. We say "Chair" when we speak about a certain shape, and with that shape, a certain action. Sitting.

              But the concept of the self being an illusion is something that most people don’t think of and makes little sense when its first introduced. The feeling of being something more akin to a Soul residing in the body cannot possibly survive scrutiny. There is no one "place" where you are. I am not talking about self in terms of physical position (e.g. "I" am sitting in the chair), I am referring to the feeling that we are the thing that is thinking thoughts, hearing sounds, smelling smells. A homunculus driving the body.

              I believe that this illusion, of our sense of identity being that of the ego, is what causes things like irrational hatred, irresponsible use of technology, and a lack of sympathy.

              • #135162
                Anonymous
                Guest

                >there is no such thing as a chair
                >it’s just an arrangement of smaller components
                By roughly the same token, there’s no such thing as "smaller components", either. Nothing’s real, everything is an illusion. Congratulations, you have reached the ultimate enlightenment, except your conclusion is vacuous both intellectually and experientially.

              • #135163
                Anonymous
                Guest

                >The feeling of being something more akin to a Soul residing in the body cannot possibly survive scrutiny.
                Except it does.
                Show me this philosophical zombie that essentially killed themselves by navel gazing too hard.

              • #135209
                Anonymous
                Guest

                Realizing no-self does not eliminate what appears to be hatred of nigs. I realize i have no self or free will and that nigs are the same. I still feel disgust and fear around them – and see myself taking action to protect "myself".
                But yeah, when DaKwan rapes i figure he is just a nig nigging and he didnt choose to be a nig,etc. I dont blame him. I still think it would be better if all nigs were in africa.

    • #135153
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Why are soul-tards so aggressive in these threads? They always ruin the discussions with their over-emotional investments in the topic

      • #135154
        Anonymous
        Guest

        >literally the only one to mention souls ITT
        >muh "soul" boogeyman
        No one likes your low IQ intellectual posturing.

    • #135159
      Anonymous
      Guest

      >the self is an illusion
      >the self isn’t real
      >literally the only thing a human can objectively say to have interaction with doesn’t actually exist

      What foundations do scientific observations stand on when we deny the legitimacy of the observer itself?

      • #135160
        Anonymous
        Guest

        Ummm, sweaty? It’s different, okay? The sense that you inhabit a physical world made up of separable elements that travel through time is just different. Senses and mental constructs pertaining to bland kindergarten materialism are real, while everything else is an illusion.

      • #135165
        Anonymous
        Guest

        The illusion of Self is not attempting to dismantle the concept of a conscious observer. The "self" may be an illusion, but you certainly are real, and you are observing.

        The self is more referring to the feeling of being somewhere behind the eyes, between your ears. Someplace in your head. This feeling attributes to many other things, like feeling that you are something separate from the world, the universe, as opposed to being a part of it, being the whole.

        This does not mean you do not interact, or that having a conversation with your mother dissolves into mere neurochemical processes, but that what we feel like we are is not the entire story. With some attention, really looking into the nature of being, we can see that there is nothing that separates us from the whole. It is all one.

        • #135166
          Anonymous
          Guest

          >you certainly are real, and you are observing
          What "you" are you referring to, champ?

          • #135169
            Anonymous
            Guest

            Probably the metaphysical "God" concept, which would be conscious of all things including all of us simultaneously. We are the puppets it experiences the dream through. This probably isn’t something that will be grasped over a brief LULZ chat, at least it took me over a year to get past the common logical misconceptions.

            • #135170
              Anonymous
              Guest

              You’ve just descended into full-blown YouTube pop-buddhism comment section drivel. Your posts have exactly zero intellectual content at this point. Why are you bothering?

              • #135176
                Anonymous
                Guest

                Any soccer mom can read a book off a shelf and comment some BS on a YouTube video. I’ve had these experiences first hand on many occasions, so I’m telling you from the horse’s mouth, not a copy and paste of a new age con artist.

                If you tell me what you need me to do to turn this into some form of intellectual content, then I can try to do that.

                • #135178
                  Anonymous
                  Guest

                  >I’ve had these experiences first hand on many occasions
                  I don’t think so.

                  >I’m telling you from the horse’s mouth
                  Your posts have zero intellectual content, and the fact that you’re so adamant about continuing this anyway, is definite evidence of the lowest form of Dunning-Kruger-tier ego-driven behavior.

                  • #135182
                    Anonymous
                    Guest

                    I can assure you I have. If you tell me what it is you want to know to provide some sort of intellectual content regarding this, then I would enjoy doing so.

                    • #135184
                      Anonymous
                      Guest

                      Those who know don’t talk. Those who talk don’t know. Curb your childish ego and stop spamming discussions with zero-intellectual-content pseud

                      • #135192
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        New age bookshelf BS (literally a meme tier famous quote). Ego is not bad.

                        They don’t necessarily need to talk because for those sages there is no distinction between literally anything, and all words work by distinction. So when an experience is had where all distinction dies, words no longer work.

                        My own experiences have been more along the lines of the self and other divide dying, unity of all things. But not to that degree. I understand what they are saying though. I want to provide something useful.

                      • #135193
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        Their wisdom, warning specifically against your scrotebraination, is just "new age bullshit" while your shitty teenage posturing is wisdom. Of course.

                      • #135199
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        It is, because you don’t understand why they say that, and are repeating a famous quote from some soccer mom spirituality site or something.

                        The Buddha spoke a great deal. Adi Shankara spoke a great deal. The person you are quoting wrote an entire book.

                      • #135200
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        >you don’t understand why they say that
                        They say that specifically as a warning against you and your likes.

          • #135171
            Anonymous
            Guest

            The conscious observer, I am referring to you who is typing this now. I can see what you are saying, that this is all semantics and that I dug my own grave by using certain words. Like the atheist that will say "bless you" to someone who sneezes.

            The illusion of self does not mean "you" are not real, but it is claiming that the feeling of being an ego is not accurate or identical with the nature of the rest of being.

            • #135172
              Anonymous
              Guest

              >I am referring to you who is typing this now
              But the "I" that you’re talking to, is an illusion, according to "you". Why are you trying to use "words" to indirectly communicate with an "illusion" when you could just bask in the glory of our shared true nature by meditating?

              • #135174
                Anonymous
                Guest

                Who knows, not "me" that’s for sure

          • #135210
            Anonymous
            Guest

            There is no "you" doing the thinking or feeling. It all just arises, persists for a time and goes away.

    • #135177
      Anonymous
      Guest

      In Buddhism, there is the concept of absence of self called anatman in contrary to the self called atman in Hinduism.
      Buddha said that a self doesn’t exist because there is not a thing in humans that is non changing and permanent. In some hindu texts, they refer to the self at something that is the true you, that never changes, and doesn’t die.

      • #135179
        Anonymous
        Guest

        Those who talk don’t know.

        • #135185
          Anonymous
          Guest

          Who is "those"? You mean Buddha and hindu priests? Or people who related what I said to me?

    • #135198
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Nothing is real, maaaaan

    • #135201
      Anonymous
      Guest

      It means that, even though you have a direct and immediate awareness of your own consciousness, it cannot be objectively quantified and verified, therefore the high priests of scientism have decided to explain away the problem by simply decreeing that you do not exist and in fact no one exists.

      • #135202
        Anonymous
        Guest

        Umm, sweaty? Just because your brain is too stupid to understand reality and decides to hallucinate some fairy dust bullshit magical "consciousness", doesn’t mean it’s real, okay?? Do you even know Anton syndrome? It proves that consciousness is an illusion.

    • #135203
      Anonymous
      Guest

      >Quote
      If you are bound to your past hour, if you must babble today because you babbled yesterday,[14] if you cannot transform yourself each instant, you feel yourself fettered in slavery and benumbed. Therefore over each minute of your existence a fresh minute of the future beckons to you, and, developing yourself, you get away “from yourself,” i. e., from the self that was at that moment. As you are at each instant, you are your own creature, and in this very “creature” you do not wish to lose yourself, the creator. You are yourself a higher being than you are, and surpass yourself. But that you are the one who is higher than you, i. e., that you are not only creature, but likewise your creator — just this, as an involuntary egoist, you fail to recognize; and therefore the “higher essence” is to you — an alien [fremd] essence. Every higher essence, e.g. truth, mankind, etc., is an essence over us.
      >Quote over
      >Tl;Dr:
      I am. My body, my mind, my past, my knowledge are merely my property that I can discard. However, the past and future don’t exist, except as an idea, so assuming I am *and will be have have been* is silly.

    • #135204
      Anonymous
      Guest

      ok i will attempt it.

      right now, you believe you are a ‘person’ reading a text.

      an enlightened person wouldnt do that, for him he would experience the experience of reading a text.

      youve asked the hardest question in the world. let me try again.

      the reason you think you are a ‘person’, a ‘body’, a ‘soul’ etc is because you have not meditated enough.

      you have to look at EXPERIENCE in order to know what it is…

      if you do, you will find that experience is just thought -> feeling -> visual experience -> body experience -> feeling -> thought -> ad infinitum in any order possible…

      if you do you will discover that the previous begets the next… and that it is a necessary and unavoidable consequence of the previous. you will also notice that it is really the same ‘energy’ that becomes "thought", "feeling" "visual experience", etc… that is to say they are only differently "colored"…

      this will mean nothing to you unless you meditate and see it for yourself.

      so an enlightened person does not believe he is a "person doing actions" for example, or a "person feeling something"… because he can see constantly the action-reaction energy that lead to an "action" or "reaction", and he cannot see an individual agent anywhere…

      even with so-called "external" phenomena, he sees that "external" phenomena has the exact same effect on "his" actions or thoughts as "internal" phenomena… he cannot find a "person" anywhere… all he can see is smell, visual experience, bodily experience, thought, feeling, taste, sounds…

      TL;DR: We think we are "persons experiencing the world" but this runs counter to actual experience!!

      • #135205
        Anonymous
        Guest

        i should add a link if you are interested: accesstoinsight.org you can even browse by subject here if youre like me and think you are very clever.

        • #135211
          Anonymous
          Guest

          Liberationunleashed.com guides people to the experience of no-self. Easy if you have done any meditation or can focus on things.

    • #135206
      Anonymous
      Guest

      it means that self is a byproduct of language and symbolic thought

      • #135207
        Anonymous
        Guest

        That’s a strictly NPC-like view on the matter.

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