Woke af on recent genetic studies, what is the relation between Etruscans and the Italics tribes?

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    • #96918
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Woke af on recent genetic studies, what is the relation between Etruscans and the Italics tribes? Are they of similar origin?

    • #96920
      Anonymous
      Guest

      No. The Italic tribes arrived with the Urnfield culture whereas the Etruscans descended directly from EEF’s.

    • #96925
      Anonymous
      Guest

      It’s unlikely Etruscans would’ve looked any different than the Romans. They were right next door to each other.

      Several Roman patrician families were of Etruscan origin.

      • #96926
        Anonymous
        Guest

        Correct, most people don’t know history

        Ancient Veii was like a one hour of walk from Rome, probably 30 mimutes on horse

      • #97025
        Anonymous
        Guest

        This. Even the last Roman king was Etruscan. Granted he was a tyrant but still it means they were intertwined. The Romans also saw the Greeks as being highly similar genetically despite speaking a radically different branch of the Indo-European language family meaning both were about 15% Steppe 65-85% EEF with the remainder being WHG with the Romans having a larger chunk, especially North Italians who later Romanized.

    • #96928
      Anonymous
      Guest

      This is a great question
      There are a lot of confusing things about the Etruscans considering that they didn’t speak an Indo-European language, for an example:
      >Genetically the same as Indo-European neighbors
      >Archeologically derived from the proto-urnfield culture which is associated with the spread of Indo-Europeans into Italy.
      >Completely surrounded by Indo-Europeans yet retained a unique culture, language, and religion.
      >Heavily connected with neighbors
      I can think of three explanations for this
      >Eastern origin
      A traditional idea is that Etruscans migrated to Italy from Greece or Anatolia and presumably supplanted their possibly Pelasgian language onto Italic subjects. This is supported by several ideas such as: the language on the isle of Lemnos in the Aegean being closely related to Etruscan, similarities between Pelasgian and Etruscan placename suffixes (Pelasgian/Greek nos and Etruscan na), the close relationship between the Etruscans and Greeks, and the accounts of ancient historians, many of whom clearly believed this.
      Many of these historians accounts however are flawed and improbable such as a Lydian origin. There is also not enough genetic evidence to support this yet.
      >Native origin
      While simple and unsatisfying it’s entirely possible that Italic conquerors of Tuscany just adopted the native languages. Perhaps it was a very developed society and they had to infiltrate it as a warrior class first like the barbarians with the Romans or the Lydians with the Egyptians.
      (Cont)

      • #96930
        Anonymous
        Guest

        >Northern origin
        This is a wierd one and I don’t remember where I read it but I found it really fascinating. The idea is that the Etruscans were EEF like originally assumed but they were descendents of LBK people from around the Danube rather than Cardials from the Mediterranean. With the violence that both preceded and accompanied the Indo-European migrations to the Danube perhaps the Etruscans mixed and formed a confederation with some minor Indo-European tribes or mercenaries(such as the Latins), and eventually made their way to the Italian peninsula.
        This would explain them emerging from the proto-villinovan culture which arrived with the IEs, their dominance over, and genetic similarities to the Latins and Rome (which may have etymology from an Etruscan word), and their cultural sophistication which could be holdover from the Vinca or Cucetani Cultures.
        If anyone knows anything about this theory I’d love to read more about it. I have no sources so it may be bullshit

        • #97026
          Anonymous
          Guest

          I love this theory myself. It is supported by the high presence of G2a-L497 in both the Celts and Romans via the Halstatt culture. The G2a-L497 itself though is arriving from Cucuteni/LBK type cultures in the Balkans that are associated with inventing copper and later bronze metallurgy as well as being in a cultural cline with the Mediterranean and Mesopotamia which would have been ethnolinguistically more unified as the Mediterranean and Mesopotamia.

          It certainly appears to be the case. Additionally, the Etruscans trace their ancestry to Lemnos and clearly knew that they were similar to and spoke a similar language as the Lemians, Pelasgians etc.

          What you are referring to became the Rhaetic speaking areas and it is entirely possible that they were some sort of nascent mountain Empire, or at least tried to be. The Etruscans were certainly no joke and it’s entirely possible the R1b Indo-European warrior males realized the EEF people had superior technology (including weapons) might have succumbed.

    • #96929
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Etruscans and Italics were mostly EEF with a little WHG and steppe admixture.

      • #96937
        Anonymous
        Guest

        No. The Italic tribes arrived with the Urnfield culture whereas the Etruscans descended directly from EEF’s.

        Lol no. They were no different in admixture proportions than Germanics at that time. All the MENA blood came in the imperial era from slaves and immigrants

        • #96938
          Anonymous
          Guest

          WE

        • #96939
          Anonymous
          Guest

          They were very different. Germanics were Scandinavian tier. Modern Germans are more mixed.
          Etruscan and Latin samples are 60%+ farmer.

          >MENA blood
          East Med blood is not Barcin, it’s later Anatolia/Levant BA blood. This new cline is perfectly visible on a PCA as it’s the Mediterranean cline.

          • #96950
            Anonymous
            Guest

            >Etruscan and Latin samples are 60%+ farmer.
            Nope
            https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abi7673

            • #96965
              Anonymous
              Guest

              Nope what?

              They agree with me. I guess it’s even more farmer if we are talking about late neolithic farmer ancestry from which most of the WHG came from.

              • #96974
                Anonymous
                Guest

                Indeed, they made a model with Middle Neaolithic Sardinia and Yamnaya.

                • #96976
                  Anonymous
                  Guest

                  Ironically the CEU male outlier was G2a. People think it could be evidence of Etruscan-Hallstatt contacts. Like those African outliers for Punic contacts.
                  The main Italic cluster is pretty much established.

                  • #96981
                    Anonymous
                    Guest

                    It’s clear that there were Villanovan-Hallstato contacts, they buried themselves with typical Hallstat terracotta boots, for example one was found in a Villanovan tomb from Accesa, not far from Vetulonia

                    • #97000
                      Anonymous
                      Guest
                    • #97003
                      Anonymous
                      Guest

                      Yeah, but I was talking about genetic evidence of mixing, not just archeological evidence.

                      • #97005
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        Just saying that in this case (and many others) the two types of evidence go along well

            • #96968
              Anonymous
              Guest

              yep
              The study proves the exact same thing previous studies on Etruscans and Italics have proven, predominantly anatolian farmer

        • #96947
          Anonymous
          Guest

          False.

          • #96952
            Anonymous
            Guest

            >distance to
            Kek. I’m now convinced that you have no idea what "admixture proportions" means

            • #96975
              Anonymous
              Guest

              I’m now convinced that you have extremely low IQ.

        • #96977
          Anonymous
          Guest

          >All the MENA blood came in the imperial era from slaves and immigrants

          Bullshit.

          Like a quarter of Repubblican era Etruscans have Punic and Armenian DNA and the 1 of 3 elite Etruscans from 900 BC have it as well as well. Proportions for Repubblican and Iron Age Latins/Romans is even greater.

          • #97007
            Anonymous
            Guest

            The main cluster is still West Med, though. Big shift is visible later on and it’s actually a East Med shift rather than African.
            Also, I’m not sure about MA001 being Armenian, I wouldn’t be surprised if he had some steppe IA ancestry.

        • #97024
          Anonymous
          Guest

          >Etruscan and Latin samples are 60%+ farmer.
          Nope
          https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abi7673

          etruscans were more farmer and less steppe than modern southern europeans
          their genetic profile was extremely different from germanics, modern north italians and and spaniards are more germanic then they were due to their higher steppe admixture and lower(but still high) farmer

          • #97040
            Anonymous
            Guest

            What about that last one with 46.8% Steppe DNA wtf. Imagine if 100% Steppe DNA people were still around into the LBA somewhere in Central Europe…

            • #97041
              Anonymous
              Guest

              MAS001 is an outlier and it’s probably not steppe ancestry.

              • #97044
                Anonymous
                Guest

                Ok because that would be the biggest news in archeology for a long time. There are other samples there though that are really low on WHG. Are they all errors or does this mean we had 100% Steppe males in Central Europe up until the Iron Age?

                • #97046
                  Anonymous
                  Guest

                  I don’t know how you came to that conclusion. It all depends on the model. I’m sure he has WHG, he’s just pulled towards the Balkans.

                  They modeled him as Etruscan + Armenia LBA, but I’m not sure about that.

                  • #97047
                    Anonymous
                    Guest

                    Because according to what we currently know about Yamnaya, Corded Ware etc, you would have picked up a metric fuckton of WHG at some point long before getting to Italy or even the Alps by the time we’re talking about Etruscans. To find 50% Steppe DNA and 0% WHG or even anything over 30% Steppe is really a lot given we’re talking about the Iron Age by this point. The PIE invasion of Ireland to India is long since complete at this point, the Trojan War has happened and the people the Vedas were written about are long dead. So original 100% Steppe DNA dudes coming into contact with a mainly EEF population with some WHG should have been long over by this time and we should see (imo) at most 30% by the Iron Age in Central Europe. Maaaaaybe you’d see 30% in Ukraine somewhere or in Scythic populations or something.

                    • #97048
                      Anonymous
                      Guest

                      This is woke af on a position on PCA. This guy is just more to the East than all the other samples and if you use these populations in your model he doesn’t require more WHG.

                      • #97050
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        Even accounting for a full 20% of that "Steppe" just being some form of hunter gatherer being counted as Steppe, that’s a lot.

                        Take a look at Mycenean samples for instance. they are basically 15% Steppe, 85% EEF by the time of the Trojan War. What we’re looking at here then, even accounting for 25% as actually being WHG and not Steppe, is someone who is double the Steppe DNA of a Mycenean. In reality, it’s possibly not as much of an error as you are suggesting because they did code for WHG as other samples clearly have it.

                      • #97051
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        Let me rephrase: we really need to take another look at the mention of Hyperboreans because there might have been 100% Steppe DNA extant into the Mycenean era (just not in Greece).

                      • #97053
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        who do you think the hyperboreans are? i thought they were nordics from nordic bronze age people that traded with mycenaeans remembered by classic greeks.

                      • #97068
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        Well woke af on this genetic sample, there might still have been 100% Steppe ancestry people up in Northeast Europe that the Greeks had contact with.

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaris_the_Hyperborean

                        So short answer: Scythians of 100% Steppe ancestry.

                      • #97052
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        One other thing: even 15% Steppe DNA makes it extra strange that they speak an EEF language does it not?

                      • #97055
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        why do you think Homer’s characters are often blonde/light-haired? do you think that some mycenaeans elites were higher steppe than the samples we have so far? we only have a handful. or maybe the traits just changed without genetic change – differences in selection etc…or maybe these are in some part earlier memories that go back to the initial indo-europeanization / proto-greek era.

                      • #97057
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        there’s no shaft grave samples yet, the available mycenaean samples are not elite
                        the wealthiest buried of them all is a female, which does happen to have the most steppe ancestry, though still low, but most importantly, doesn’t necessarily matter much because these people are known to have taken wives from the conquered locals, in the recent Czechia CWC study early corded ware samples include local late farmer females for instance
                        consider in any case that Sintashta-like people were for certain roaming around in Bulgaria during the Mycenaean age, so lots of things are possible when it comes to conquering elites of the Trojan war era, priscan Achaeans, etc…

                      • #97064
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        We might have to be open to the idea that the IE people were a cohesive nomadic culture possible until the LBA and might have even been loosely aware of that fact.

                        Take for instance the Arthurian legends which are from Scythians in England and an adaptation of their sword in the stone myth. The Romans used Scythian mercenaries and recognized there were more similarities between them than between a Nubian etc.

                        I really think we might be looking at this phenomenon where the Mediterranean world draws elite warriors from Steppe derived people until they cohesively band together to form the ruling warrior caste of a civilization in all but the cases in which the EEF derived males are extinguished on impact.

                        The Etruscans might be a prime example of what would happen if the Roman Empire didn’t collapse but Germanic mercenaries continued to gain influence in Rome until they were most of the Senators. Archeologists would look back and find a ton of random I1/R1a DNA in the Roman ruling class etc but wonder why they are still a Latin culture speaking a Latin language. Just a theory.

                      • #97059
                        Anonymous
                        Guest

                        I agree. But then Steppe DNA would literally equate to demigodhood not just in legend but in reality. It would have to equate to some sort of actual real life performance improvement and not just an unbroken male lineage chain (as is the current narrative).

              • #97056
                Anonymous
                Guest

                This sample is closest to me and I’m bulgarian.

          • #97042
            Anonymous
            Guest

            Can you link more of these? Does anyone else see the samples at the bottom that are pretty much indicative of 100% Steppe DNA male and 100% EEF female producing offspring with virtually 0% WHG which either means they recently conquered that area or the Etruscans had 100% exterminated the WHG lineages in that area (unlikely because there is plenty of WHG elsewhere on the list).

            • #97043
              Anonymous
              Guest

              Ironically the last two are G2a2, heh.

              • #97045
                Anonymous
                Guest

                Makes even less sense that way. Was it just G2a2? If It were G2a-L497, I’d say it still means we see 100% Steppe ancestry in Central Europe up until the Iron Age. G2a2 would be LBK derived but not G2a-L497 so the complete lack of WHG makes this even stranger. Again, it’s not just that one sample, anything over 30% Steppe is pretty groundbreaking imo

    • #96935
      Anonymous
      Guest

      yeah they were the same group

    • #97021
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Ancient Campania + 2 Magna Greeks from Pithekoussai.

      • #97022
        Anonymous
        Guest
      • #97023
        Anonymous
        Guest

        It’s not enough samples of Greeks, so hopefully there will be more in the future. Still, the Greek samples resemble Myceneans meaning they are not like the Imperial samples or modern South Italians, so if more Greeks will be similar then most of this East Med ancestry is not from Greeks.

    • #97027
      Anonymous
      Guest

      What if the R1b’s were mercenary warriors for Etruscan tower lords in their intercity squabbles much like later Germanic mercenaries for the Romans?

    • #97028
      Anonymous
      Guest

      https://i.4cdn.org/his/1632847167436.png

      I’ve heard some suggest a Vlach-like scenario which could make sense. Basically it’s all about the Alpine region being a good area to resist the Indo-Euroepan advance and onslaught. Once things settled down, G2a rich peoples who resisted were slowly able to push back somewhat, and become incorporated into largely IE societies, in any case being influenced by them nevertheless, because Etruscans, not unlike Basques, aren’t certainly a completely alien people to Indo-Europeans, in fact, linguists do speak of IE influence in Etruscan.
      Something similar may have happened in Germanic as well together with Y-DNA I1, though due to population size difference and other factors, the IE input was eventually overwhelming.

      • #97029
        Anonymous
        Guest

        >were originally R1b but then got retaken by G2a

        The things you are referencing happened prior to the Bronze Age. We would know it if there was some massive event like that.

        What we should be doing is looking at what the R1b strains are. They could even be freaking Anatolian ffs. If they are Central European and exactly the same as the Latin R1b’s then it’s entirely possible that R1b Central European warriors were being used as mercenaries by the Etruscans just like Germanic warriors would be by Romans later. In the case of the Latins, they might be an example of where the same R1b mercenaries got the upper hand in some rural Rhaetian speaking area of the Alps and snowballed into a collective thing (literally) of similar warrior males much like the Goths/Visigoths/Vandals later and ended up forming worthwhile kingdoms (such as Rome).

        • #97030
          Anonymous
          Guest

          >What we should be doing is looking at what the R1b strains are. They could even be freaking Anatolian ffs
          we know what strains they are, they are ~100% R1b-P312 of central Euro Beaker derivation, or CWC derived L51 anyway(in lower quality samples)
          even in the Romans there was at least 1 R1b linked with Anatolians, while in these all of them are at least under L51, with even a single Germanic related U106(probably Unetice related or something, Pannonian/central Euro in origin anyway)

          • #97031
            Anonymous
            Guest

            Ok that makes sense. So who is popping up as R1b? Warrior graves? Kings?

            • #97032
              Anonymous
              Guest

              the archaeological info in the supplementary doesn’t really seem to give much clue into that, and in some cases is vague due to how they obtained the remains

              • #97035
                Anonymous
                Guest

                That’s too late age. I have seen stuff that supports what you are saying though with Central European R1b. I just don’t know what kind of graves they are associated with. I do know the autosomal is basically identical to Romans with about 15% Steppe ancestry on average. If we didn’t know their language, we’d assume they were probably just another Greek colony or advanced Italic tribe for the time or something.

                • #97037
                  Anonymous
                  Guest

                  they have ~25% steppe on average and high-ish WHG, they don’t differ from the earliest samples from 800BC, they have nothing to do with Greeks going by all these elements

                • #97038
                  Anonymous
                  Guest

                  Most of the samples look the same, both R1b and G2a were buried in similar tombs. There’s this Central Euro with G2a buried with a tomb that seems pretty rich, but R1b typical Etruscan was also buried in this tomb.

          • #97033
            Anonymous
            Guest

            Which sample is the U106? It could be wrongly dated. A bunch of samples came from some skulls found in like 19th century or something.

            • #97034
              Anonymous
              Guest

              The sample is not dated, but he looks the same as other Etruscans.

            • #97036
              Anonymous
              Guest

              TAQ013, he is part of the non radiocarbon dated ones, but he definitely clusters with the other Etruscans, you can see him in

              Nope what?

              They agree with me. I guess it’s even more farmer if we are talking about late neolithic farmer ancestry from which most of the WHG came from.

    • #97039
      Anonymous
      Guest

      thinking about, the Czechia bronze age study did have what should be the oldest U106 to date, an early CWC sample, which though a minority survived at least up until the preClassical Unetice samples to around 2000BC, to that ultimately could be the source

    • #97049
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Distance to: MAS001:MAS001
      0.04331841 Rumelia_East
      0.04334770 Bulgarian
      0.04433260 Gagauz
      0.04436599 Swiss_Italian
      0.04480704 Greek_Central_Macedonia
      0.04627892 Romanian
      0.04679740 Macedonian
      0.04912511 Italian_Northeast
      0.04919899 Greek_Thessaly
      0.04998556 Italian_Piedmont

      I mean, is he really so alien? Yeah, it’s an outlier and he looks surprisingly like post-Slavic Balkan samples.

    • #97058
      Anonymous
      Guest

      in any case, MAS001 in G25 seems to be quite weird, the model they proposed in the paper doesn’t really produce great fits, it’s in fact almost easier to model him using distant sources than it is to find decent recent sources, some weird mix of broadly EEF+steppe ancestry yet with some non trivial Levant ancestry, PPNB in particular
      anyone got better recent-source models?

      • #97060
        Anonymous
        Guest

        What about an Iron Age steppe source? Sarmatian for example.

    • #97061
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Target: MAS001:MAS001
      Distance: 2.3154% / 0.02315364 | R3P
      50.2 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
      41.8 KAZ_Zevakinskiy_BA
      8.0 Levant_PPNC

      Shitty fit, but there’s nothing better. Maybe it’s because of low quality or something. That PPN doesn’t make sense.

      • #97062
        Anonymous
        Guest

        good catch with the steppe sample, didn’t think I had to seek that far, wtf though, such a weird combo, possibly linked maybe with Mitanni?
        it fits as about ~50% Prenesini outlier, with the rest ~50% being ~80% Andronovo-like/Zevakinskly and 20% EBA Jordan, the latter could make sense as some sort of Mitanni related population

      • #97063
        Anonymous
        Guest

        Ya there is way more to this Etruscan story than meets the eye if we are getting DNA like this.

        • #97065
          Anonymous
          Guest

          mind you this sample is quite recent, middle-late Republic, so not relevant to the Etruscan question per se, still interesting how such sample got there though
          and the fact that it prefers this central Asian sample instead of superficially similar MLBA steppe sample is too interesting, since this KAZ_Zevakinskiy_BA has non trivial west siberian HG ancestry

          • #97067
            Anonymous
            Guest

            This is extremely odd unless its a set of errors which it doesn’t appear to be.

            Tell me this isn’t the biggest catch in recent archeogenetics?

      • #97066
        Anonymous
        Guest

        >PPN

        There’s some weird stuff like that in the Minoans and Sardinians as well. There was definitely some advanced culture in Mesopotamia that was moving around the very early Bronze Age and had colonies in the Aegean but it was probably overlap ethnolinguistically because we would see some archeological impact points. It looks more like an elite group of more advanced but similar people came over as colonists almost like British Imperialists compared to Australian Outback people.

    • #97069
      Anonymous
      Guest

      all these woke af ancient people were pretty much "white" right? like if a Congid or Bantu showed up randomly they would probably think it was an alien or monster right?

      • #97070
        Anonymous
        Guest

        Correct

      • #97071
        Anonymous
        Guest

        well some more olive-skinned, basically brown looking with a tan. some more white.

        • #97072
          Anonymous
          Guest

          skin tone, hair color, eye color are pretty superficial

          i mean, none of these people were Dravidian (dark, Abo type face) mongolid, negroid right?

          • #97073
            Anonymous
            Guest

            Indus Valley was Dravidian until the IE invasions.

            • #97074
              Anonymous
              Guest

              no, it was iran_n + aasi . it was prob a mix of brown caucasoids and dravidian-looking people

              • #97077
                Anonymous
                Guest

                Dravidians are caucasoids, though.

                • #97078
                  Anonymous
                  Guest

                  dravidians are mostly AASI
                  i wouldn’t call them caucasoid, more like early east eurasians

                  • #97079
                    Anonymous
                    Guest

                    Caucasoid relates mainly to skull morphology, and pretty much every anthropologist that used those designations agreed that the dravidians are caucasian.

                    • #97080
                      Anonymous
                      Guest

                      not really, craniometry "studies" don’t show them as very similar to other so called caucasoids

                      but talking about more important things, AASI were east eurasians, so a completely different branch of humanity than west eurasians

            • #97075
              Anonymous
              Guest

              i mean the agaean, anatolia and levant area

          • #97076
            Anonymous
            Guest

            >i mean, none of these people were Dravidian (dark, Abo type face) mongolid, negroid right?
            in this region of the world at this time, no.

            • #97081
              Anonymous
              Guest

              k. good

    • #97082
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Uh.oh,,,

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