Christians only hate these guys because they are Biblically right about everything and they are the only christians that arnt a total Larp.
cope and seethe.
Christians only hate these guys because they are Biblically right about everything and they are the only christians that arnt a total Larp.
This. Anyone can read the gospels and see for themselves that JW are the only ones to follow Jesus' actual commands which all mainstream versions of Christianity completely ignore.
>fedora tippers embrace a cult to own the christcucks, trigger the christcucks
go join scientology
How is Christianity a cult ?
We didn't kill anyone, embezzle anyone, rape anyone, enslave anyone, bribe anyone
Why do you hate God's canal of salvation so much ?
I know that's you JWAnon. No it isn't working.
Not even close, I think JW is a stupid cult.
But they do follow the teachings of Jesus as given in the gospel. Jesus did say to hate your family. Jesus did say to abandon everything and follow him. Jesus did say to preach that the end of the world is near.
Actual Christianity involves a lot of mental gymnastics to ignore all that stuff and focus only on the nice-sounding moral platitudes.
>I think JW is a stupid cult
Paul predicted that you would say that.
"We preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to israelites and foolishness to Gentiles," (1 corinthians 1:23)
JWanon, what do you have to say about Redeem Zoomers interpretation of the book of Zechariah saying that Jesus is God? heres a link https://youtu.be/J7C9bEHakaU?t=625
Zechariah 2:10 says that Jehovah would reside in the midst of his people, and Jesus said that he would reside in the midst of his disciples at Luke 22:7.
However, this does not mean that both cannot be in the midst of Jehovah’s people. Jesus said at Matthew 18:20, "where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst." The same goes for Jehovah.
In fact, at John 14:23, Jesus said, "If anyone loves me, he will observe my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him."
Thus, wherever Jesus is, there Jehovah is also. This is no more mysterious than Jesus being where his disciples are gathered.
Jesus gave this principle when he said, "Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together." What he meant was wherever you behold Christians partaking of the evening meal in the way he prescribed, partaking with understanding, there Jesus will be as well. (1Co 11:29)
Can you see what Redeemed Zoomer has failed to consider ?
>"If anyone loves me, he will observe my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him."
>wherever Jesus is, there Jehovah is also.
So anyone in the world can declare Jehovah is with them? Not just Jesus?
>Can you see what Redeemed Zoomer has failed to consider ?
i never trusted redeemed zoomer when he declared anyone who doesnt believe in the trinity a non christian, yet at the same time he believes Catholics and Orthodox's are both christian while having fundamental differences about the trinity.
>So anyone in the world can declare Jehovah is with them? Not just Jesus?
I don't understand your question
your own words
>Thus, wherever Jesus is, there Jehovah is also.
Can Jehovah be where anyone else is in the world too? Or just Jesus?
Jesus is our intercessor, the mediator between the Christian and Jehovah God
so for Jehovah to be with us, Jesus has to be there
Could Moses have been a mediator between Christians and Jehovah too since he delivered the commandments?
Moses was a mediator between ancient israelites and Jehovah
Christians do not follow the Torah, so moses is not our mediator. The Mosaic Law was replaced by “the law of the Christ,” which includes all that Jesus instructed his followers to do.—Galatians 6:2; Matthew 28:19, 20.
>Moses was a mediator between ancient israelites and Jehovah
>Christians do not follow the Torah, so moses is not our mediator.
wait, so is being a mediator a metaphorical role or a physical role?
What do you mean ?
Lets say Jehovah created Jesus and Moses in a character builder. Did he click a checkbox saying they are a mediator between people? Like that is their official programmed role? or did people declare them to be mediators, not God, metaphorically since God speaks through them?
if that makes sense.
Jesus was like Moses in many ways.
Both Moses and Jesus were anointed by God’s spirit or active force, both performed miracles, and both mediated a covenant between God and his people.
do you know the purpose of the covenant that God made with Israel through Moses ?
>anointed by God’s spirit or active force
is this a different or same anointment like when JW's choose to partake in the eucharist? Are anointed JW's also mediators of God?
>do you know the purpose of the covenant that God made with Israel through Moses ?
I thought it would be to establish Heaven on Earth, but the Mosaic Laws have evil death penalties given towards people, while Jesus wants to forgive everyone.
>Are anointed JW's also mediators of God?
Jesus acts as the mediator of a "new covenant" (Jeremiah 31:31, Luke 22:20, and Hebrews 9:15; 12:24), mediating between the parties of that covenant (God and the 144,000 anointed).
Those with an earthly hope (like me) are to be beneficiaries of that covenant.
>I thought it would be to establish Heaven on Earth
they were to obey God and be his people
If they obeyed God they would become ‘a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ (Ex. 19:5, 6) God would give them the privilege of serving as priests in behalf of the human family
However, is that what happened ?
>However, is that what happened ?
From what Im told, it was cycles where Israel and Judah would be prosperous because they praised God, but then they started embracing Paganism and got conquered. But at the same time they were doomed from the start because they appointed a King.
That's correct !
the people of Israel were unfaithful, that why God rejected them !
and when he did, the covenant mediated through Moses came to an end. But God still wanted ‘a nation of priests.'
To produce such a ‘nation’ God made a new covenant through a new mediator.
Can you guess who that would be ?
>To produce such a ‘nation’ God made a new covenant through a new mediator.
>Can you guess who that would be ?
Jesus and Baptism instead of Circumcision?
Yes, the mediator is Jesus !
Let me explain further
Because the penalty of death that resulted from the first man’s sin could not be removed through a sinful mediator, not even a man as great as Moses
In fact, Moses as mediator could only act out in advance what the one greater than he would fulfill. When Moses acted as mediator, he simply offered sound animal sacrifices to illustrate the principle of equal justice stated in God’s law at Deuteronomy 19:21, that is, ‘Soul will be for soul.
let’s put it this way. What does justice require when a man murders his fellowman ?
>What does justice require when a man murders his fellowman ?
"If you kill a killer, the number of killers in the world remains the same"
- Batman
if we value something highly, we are usually willing to pay a high price for it. But if we consider it to be cheap, we will pay little or nothing for it. That is only reasonable. Do you agree ?
Firstborn?
>if we value something highly, we are usually willing to pay a high price for it.
the Oxygen in the air is free, and its the most valuable thing in the world.
tripplets are god given
>make bullshit up
>"predict" that you'll get called out
I will leave JWs immediately if you can name one thing I believe that isn't true
If you cannot then you have to accept a Bible study
deal ???
You guys are almost endearing
>I will leave JWs immediately
Kek you're not even allowed to do that, and if you do you will get ostracized and hated for the rest of your life
>Kek you're not even allowed to do that
A person can resign from our organization in two ways:
By formal request. Either orally or in writing, a person can state his decision that he no longer wants to be known as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
By action. A person can take an action that places him outside our worldwide brotherhood. (1 Peter 5:9) For example, he might join another religion and make known his intention to remain part of it.—1 John 2:19.
>if you do you will get ostracized
>and hated for the rest of your life
JWs do not hate former JWs. Upon leaving the Kingdom Hall after the meeting one Sunday, the clunky old jalopy of a disfellowshipped person stalled in the very busy street right in front of the Hall.
Four JW brothers quickly appeared and helped him push the car out of the way of traffic. One of the four stayed to help him get the car running again. But we didn’t speak of anything other than the problem with the car. And, when the car was running, he said thank you to us and we said you’re welcome
And that was it.
Chris Stuckman (former JW) says that his friends were told to never hang out with him again and his father hasnt spoken to him once since leaving the faith.
The Bible commands Christians not to keep company or fellowship with a person who is no longer part of the congregation:
2 John:
"Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him."
Romans:
"Now I urge you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who create divisions and causes for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them."
1 Corinthians:
"But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man."
It doesn't mean we hate former JWs. If they leave the true religion that means they want nothing to do with us so we respect their wishes and leave them alone. We won't interfer in their lives, they can do whatever they want
>It doesn't mean we hate former JWs.
Not hate perse, but it feels like JW's treat former JW's with gloves on.
Im an atheist, and i feel like i would be accepted into JW's in open arms from day 1. But someone declared an apostate cant return to JW's like normal. They have to be silent for years like they are in prison until they declared clear by an elder.
Does that seem right?
At least wait for a few posts first. Ffs at least be a little subtle with the self replies.
>everybody before us was wrong
>also the apocalypse began in 1914
what is your point
You done wrong
>also the apocalypse began in 1914
This is a fact of reality. Formation of the US and Israel were known of long before they happened.
They are literally LARPing what they read in their LARP player's handbook and entirely reject traditions built up over millennia.
n his illustration of the wheat and the weeds, Jesus foretold a great rebellion (apostasy) against true Christianity. (Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43)
For a long period of time, true Christians and false Christians would be indistinguishable. Just as Jesus foretold, the apostasy flourished after the apostles died. (Acts 20:29, 30)
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/faith/2008/02/21/jehovah-s-witnesses-are-fastest-growing-denomination-survey-says/?outputType=amp
And who exactly is rebelling? Roleplaying according to rules in a book regardless of reality is literally what LARP is.
Argumentum ad populum
Texas sharpshooter fallacy
My research coincides with his, even his citation for 2017 matched mine, star dates are used in the Bible. Calendars change through the millenia...but the stars change very little...depending on what youre measuring.
Calendar of Stone.
It would be funny to set up an "Anti-J.W." grassroots movement and let people just assume until the very end.
we're the most persecuted religion
https://bitterwinter.org/jehovahs-witnesses-the-worlds-most-persecuted-religion/
https://theconversation.com/jehovahs-witnesses-neglected-victims-of-persecution-114141
But it doesn't matter, because we have the ALMIGHTY at our side.
"No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper." (Isaiah 54:17)
Satan always tried to use the government to persecute Jehovah's witnesses.
He tried with Pharaoh in the 16th century BC
He tried with Nero in the 1st century AD
He tried with Hitler during the 20th century AD
He tries with Putin right now
but Jehovah always protects his people !
Jehovah's Witnesses in the 1st century were thrown to lions and turned into human torches by the Roman emperors.
And yet, 2000 years later we still exist and the Eoman emperor is NO MORE !
Hitler vowed to destroy Jehovah's chosen people into oblivion
Now it is Hitler that is destroyed forever and JWs still live
The same will happen to Putin
>Now it is Hitler that is destroyed forever and JWs still live
>The same will happen to Putin
So you're like a cringe reddit version of Christianity?
The fate of the antichrist is sealed
It's protestant (ie false) doctrines taken to their logical extreme
What am I protesting against ?
Works or faith alone?
Heh, checkmate...
The Bible shows that you must have works, or acts of obedience, to prove that your faith is alive. (James 2:24, 26)
However, this does not mean that you can earn salvation. It is “God’s gift” based on his “undeserved kindness,” or “grace.”—Ephesians 2:8, 9
>based on his “undeserved kindness,” or “grace.”
So then I'll live by grace and be owed my due.
"I learned it from you."
JW is founded on the doctrine of sola scriptura. Which the protestants came up with.
Sola scriptural can be taken excessively, of course. We acknowledge that there is metaphore and parable in the bible, and that archeological evidence and current scientific understanding (via actual evidence, not just religious atheism) is important.
But yes, the original message in scripture takes full precedence over tradition. A tradition that contradicts scripture is a false tradition, that should be discarded. No human priest or pope has any authority to contradict scripture.
To gain salvation, you must not pnly exercise faith in Jesus but also demonstrate that faith by obeying his commands.—Acts 4:10, 12; Romans 10:9, 10; Hebrews 5:9.
>But yes, the original message in scripture takes full precedence over tradition. A tradition that contradicts scripture is a false tradition, that should be discarded. No human priest or pope has any authority to contradict scripture.
I believe Jesus left us with the apostles, not scripture which was compiled later (by the church). Look at Acts 15 how the church dealt with people erroneously interpreting scripture. Not to mention the whole logistics of how hard it was to get written texts before the press was invented. Having scripture as the main source of faith would make it impossible for people to be true Christians for the first few hundred years at least.
It is to the Scriptures that the church is commended in order to combat the error that was bound to come (Acts 20:32). Likewise, it was the written Word that was seen in the Old Testament as the source of truth upon which to base one’s life (Joshua 1:8; Deuteronomy 17:18-19; Psalm 1; Psalm 19:7-11; 119; etc.).
Jesus said that one of the reasons that the Sadducees were in error concerning the resurrection is that they did not know the Scriptures (Mark 12:24).
>It is to the Scriptures that the church is commended in order to combat the error that was bound to come (Acts 20:32).
>I commend you to God and to the word of His grace
That's a really far reaching interpretation. It says nothing about future error and at the time of Paul there weren't even gospels written down. So are they talking about the old testament, the whole scripture that will be written in the future or the gospel which was spread by word of the apostles?
There are stronger verses like Matthew 16:18 which gives us clearly the thing on which Jesus built the foundation of his church
In Acts 20:27-32, Paul acknowledges publicly that “wolves” and false teachers would arise from “among yourselves” (within the church).
What did he commend them to ?
To “God and the word of His grace.”
He does not commend them to the “church leaders” (they were the church leaders) nor to the traditions of the church nor to a particular overseeing elder. Rather, Paul pointed them to the Word of God.
>He does not commend them to the “church leaders” (they were the church leaders) nor to the traditions of the church nor to a particular overseeing elder. Rather, Paul pointed them to the Word of God.
At the time of Paul the gospel was spread by word (tradition) by the apostles (church leaders). There was no written word of God at that time other than the Old Testament.
With the death of John, the last apostle, this reliable chain of divinely inspired men came to an end. Therefore, with the book of Revelation, John’s Gospel, and his three letters, the Bible canon was closed
>Not hate perse, but it feels like JW's treat former JW's with gloves on.
Yes that's what the Bible tells us to do
"Let [the expelled one] be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector." (Matthew 18:17)
Because those listening to Jesus knew well that the israelite of that day had no fraternization with Gentiles and that they shunned tax collectors as outcasts, they realized that Jesus was instructing his followers not to associate with expelled ones.
>Im an atheist, and i feel like i would be accepted into JW's in open arms from day 1
As long as a person loves Jehovah, yes they will be treated as family by any JW around the world
>But someone declared an apostate cant return to JW's like normal
The elders must be assured that the person repents of his sins first
Jesus said that the heavens rejoice greatly when someone reverts back to God (Luke 15:7 )
>They have to be silent for years like they are in prison until they declared clear by an elder.
In the meantime, a former JW who wishes to return can attend our mettings and they are regularly visited by the elders to receive encouragement
>Does that seem right?
Yes
They're definitely more right than the other denominations. But their ideas about Jesus being Michael are just speculative, yet they state them as fact. So that's a problem.
>yet they state them as fact
"Consider why it is reasonable to conclude that Jesus is the archangel Michael."
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/archangel-michael/
We don't state it as fact.
Oh, well thank you for the clarification. Interesting. I might have to look into it more.
Ill greatly consider becoming a JW if you can show me any historical record proving 1st century christians believed Jesus was Michael the Archangel. If you think this is unreasonable, let me remind you that you constantly disqualify the holy trinity on the grounds that no christian talked about it until the 3rd century.
>show me any historical record proving 1st century christians believed Jesus was Michael the Archangel
Okay: https://defendingjehovahswitnesses.blogspot.com/2013/04/why-do-jehovahs-witnesses-conclude-that.html?m=1
>let me remind you that you constantly disqualify the holy trinity on the grounds that no christian talked about it until the 3rd century
That's not at all why we disqualify the trinity. It's because it contradicts Scripture.
If you worship other persons as equal to the Father, that is idolatry. As Jesus said in the clearest possible terms imaginable at John 17:1-5, the Father is God, and He is the only one to receive full worshipful devotion.
>most early "church fathers"
well, i am shocked.
but i still wont believe it until i see direct quotes from Church fathers saying they believe Jesus is Michael.
>shunned tax collectors as outcasts, they realized that Jesus was instructing his followers not to associate with expelled ones.
Why was he associating with untouchables then?
Because they were repentant
>Matthew 8:20 and Luke 9:58 both record a statement by Jesus in which he describes his homelessness by saying that "foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the son of man has nowhere to lay his head".
Little did we know that his emotional expression at these times was one of disgust for plebs. Next we'll hear it was a fake murder for the life insurance and Jesus and Judas fled woth the bounty.
Plebs are crafty but stupid.
>With the death of John, the last apostle, this reliable chain of divinely inspired men came to an end.
Why should I believe this if I believe in Jesus? He gave us the church and apostles and they just stopped existing a generation or two later?
>Therefore, with the book of Revelation, John’s Gospel, and his three letters, the Bible canon was closed
Then who compiled the canon? Were the men who did not divinely inspired?
The writing of the Christian Greek Scriptures was completed during the time that the gifts of the spirit were operative on Christ’s followers. (Joh 14:26; Re 1:1) Some Christians had the gift of “discernment of inspired expressions.” (1Co 12:10) Thus, they could, without referring the matter to a supposed church council, determine which of the letters the congregation received were inspired of God.
The testimony of later, noninspired writers is valuable only as an acknowledgment of the Bible canon, which God’s spirit had guided and authorized.
>He gave us the church and apostles and they just stopped existing a generation or two later?
It is Scripture that is said to be God-breathed (2 Timothy 3:16), and it is Scripture that has the repeated, “Thus saith the JEHOVAH...”
In other words, it is the written Word that is repeatedly treated as God’s Word. Never is it said of any church tradition that it, too, is God-breathed and infallible.
>Some Christians had the gift of “discernment of inspired expressions.” (1Co 12:10) Thus, they could, without referring the matter to a supposed church council, determine which of the letters the congregation received were inspired of God.
That doesn't explain what they were supposed to do after the gifts of the spirit were no longer present.
You say scripture God-breathed and infallible yet there are many cases of people misinterpreting both the Old Testament and Paul's writings. There needs to be an authority to interpret them and God gave that authority to the apostles as seen in Acts 15.
>That doesn't explain what they were supposed to do after the gifts of the spirit were no longer present
Follow the Bible the best they can
>You say scripture God-breathed and infallible yet there are many cases of people misinterpreting both the Old Testament and Paul's writings. There needs to be an authority to interpret them and God gave that authority to the apostles as seen in Acts 15.
Indeed. Today, that authority is the faithful and discreet slave that form a governing body:
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/governing-body-jw-helpers/
However, between the death of the apostles and the appointment of the governing body, there was no organized christian religion that had God's blessing. Only apostate sects, just as Jesus foretold in the parable of the wheats and weeds
>Follow the Bible the best they can
You realize how hard it was to distribute written word (especially an enormous collection of books like the Bible) before the printing press was invented?
>However, between the death of the apostles and the appointment of the governing body, there was no organized christian religion that had God's blessing. Only apostate sects, just as Jesus foretold in the parable of the wheats and weeds
I don't believe that because it would mean Jesus' and his apostles' lives and works resulted in failure.
>You realize how hard it was to distribute written word (especially an enormous collection of books like the Bible) before the printing press was invented?
Well for the first few centuries of our Common Era, many people could read the Bible in either Greek or Latin. They were thus in a position to compare the teachings of God’s Word with the dogmas of the church. On the basis of what they read in the Bible, some among them rejected the unscriptural creeds of the church, but it was dangerous—even fatal—to express such opinions openly.
In time, Bible languages fell into disuse by the masses, and the church opposed efforts to translate God’s Word into the common tongues.
As a result, only the clergy and some other educated people could read the Bible for themselves, although not all of the clergy could read and write well. Any dissent from what the church taught was severely punished.
>I don't believe that because it would mean Jesus' and his apostles' lives and works resulted in failure.
Not at all !
Matthew 28:20: "And, look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things."
Jesus was with his followers, even during the Great Apostasy when their numbers were few. Thus, there is no incompatibility.
Jesus was with his followers, even during the Great Apostasy when their numbers were few. He knows who they are, and he separates the wolves from them. Thus, there is no incompatibility, and it is even compatible with the Great Apostasy.
>parable of the wheats and weeds
ive wondered about this before, but can this parable apply to Bible translations?
The original manuscripts of the Bible are long gone, then we get the received text in 500 AD and it reigns for a while especially with KJV-onlyism, but then we unearth early manuscripts and JW's somehow knew that you should replace "LORD" with "Jehovah"
>replace "LORD" with "Jehovah"
Heresy!
Sola scriptura is flawed 100 different ways.
You need authority to choose the canon, approve translations, examine new found texts and interpret scripture.
Those who have hidden God's name in their translations are part of the weed, yes
>You need authority to choose the canon
Already done in the first century
>approve translations
Textual criticism
>examine new found texts
Archaeologists
>and interpret scripture.
Governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses
>Those who have hidden God's name in their translations are part of the weed, yes
do you have any sources I could check out? im actually very interested in how JW's determined to replace Lord with Jehovah and want to know the history.
Sure, here you go
https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/appendix-a/tetragrammaton-divine-name/
No thank you, my life was saved from a blood transfusion.
>cope and seeth-ackk