Christ offers himself up as an innocent victim, a sweet smelling aroma to the Lord. By taking our sins onto himself, he cleanses us from them, by subjecting himself to the power of death which was in the hands of Satan. Being handed over, then, as a ransom, by his divinity, he is able to snatch the keys of death and Hades out of the hands of that rebellious one, and in his resurrection burns up all our trespasses outside the camp, and with this comes a new creation whereby we may have a participation in by the grace that God gives us for sanctification, though we are not worthy of this, yet before him we have been reckoned as justified if we put our faith in his Christ. In him we have redemption from the evil one, for we were bought at a price. We may become partakers in the divine nature, we may become as a new Adam or a new Eve, for we are all one in Jesus Christ who is the second Adam, the man from heaven, the God of the whole creation. We are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, set apart from what is common, our bodies have become Temples to the Holy Spirit, and we are washed aknew in the waters of regeneration of rebirth. Therefore, offer your bodies as living sacrifices to God just as Christ did, make a victim out of your trials and tribulations, out of your sufferings, that you might become as wise as Job became and as content as Solomon, a holy priest like Melchizedek. Amen.
Christ offers himself up as an innocent victim, a sweet smelling aroma to the Lord.
Falling into your wing while paragliding is called 'gift wrapping' and turns you into a dirt torpedo pic.twitter.com/oQFKsVISkI— Mental Videos (@MentalVids) March 15, 2023
But if Jesus is a perfect sin offering, then Jesus must be a woman. Your picture shows a man.
Not biblically speaking.
Yes, biblically speaking. Check out Romans 8:3 and Leviticus 4:32. Lambs as sin offerings are females, not males.
The lamb for the Passover was male, and Christ is our paschal lamb. Also, the trespass offering and sin offering for the day of atonement also had male victims.
The paschal lamb is not a sin offering. Jesus being a paschal lamb makes no sense, since he was offered for our sins, not to form the Israelite nation.
You're misunderstanding the purpose of animal sacrifices in the Old Testament. They were but foreshadows to that true sacrifice which Christ offered on the cross, namely, himself. All of the sacrifices, the burnt offerings, peace offerings, grain offerings, sin offerings, trespass offerings, wave offerings, typify Christ's sacrifice. Sin offers were not given for intentional sin, but for unintentional, like if you accidentally ate something unclean, or if you touched a holy object while unknowingly being ritually impure. These sacrifices were an annual reminder of sins, they couldn't actually take them away as Hebrews 10:3-4 tells us. Only Christ's offering is truly efficacious for the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
>Jesus was a sacrifice so that every person is forgiven and can go to heaven
>but this still requires that you perform all kinds of rituals (confession, the eucharist) and believe in it for it to work
Also means that you must love someone who will punish you horribly if you don't love him. "Love" is impossible in this situation (it's called coercion and terror). The claim by christians that they "love" Jesus makes liars out of all of them. And they bloody know it.
God doesn't punish you, you punish yourself. If your father tells you "don't run and play in the street," and then you run and play in the street and get hit and killed by a car, it's not your dad's punishment, it's the consequence of your own heedlessness & failure
The Bible explicitly frames it as being punished by God for going against him. Especially the old testament. Christianity is not based around natural processes of punishment for sins. Even in the Bible itself there is talk about how sinners don't get punished as much as people think they should.
yes it's called justice
you chat shit you get banged & that's divine law & the way of the creation
why do you think you should escape consequences for your failure to follow God's law which is objectively good?
loving God = following his commandments = not being a shithead animalistic beast enslaved by his stomach and dick
if you can't handle that then you will be punished in this life & the next life & i fail to see what is unjust about that
>God doesn't punish people, he just made the laws of the universe in such a way that if you don't do what he says you are punished
Typical israeli buck-passing. But despite that, in the Bible it's still said that bad people don't get punished at times. And God is shown to reward people who don't follow him just to punish Israel for defying him. This is usually handwaived by "God works in mysterious ways and we can't understand his thinking".
lol you're missing the entire point which is that the resurrection of the dead & the last judgment & the renewed creation is when Divine justice will be fully implemented
not in this mortal coil
You said in your previous post
>you will be punished in this life & the next life
So according to you, divine justice is meted out in this mortal coil. And when people die they do go to heaven or hell depending on their choices. Otherwise, what happens to people who die before the final judgement?
And this still doesn't run contrary to my point that God is the one who is punishing people, whether it's personally or due to God purposely making the universe so that people who disagree with him are punished.
just because someone is outwardly successful in this life doesn't mean they're not also undergoing some kind of punishment. there are tons of sociopaths that will die a natural death after a long life... but imagine how great of a punishment it is to never know love & selflessness?
you're totally right, God does punish people. my point is that at the end of the day, and i mean the END of the day, the punishment is deserved.
>And when people die they go to heaven or hell otherwise what happens to people who die before the final judgment
hard to say for sure obviously. The Soul After Death by Fr. Seraphim Rose has the in-depth Orthodox teaching. it is incorrect that people go to their eternal punishment or reward upon death. however they are no longer able to affect their status at the last judgment after death. only prayers of the living have a chance to help them then.
The death sentence that God issues on Adam and Eve was akin to that of other death sentences in the Torah, however when reading the Pauline and Catholic epistles we find that death is a generational curse, and Satan is the one who held the power over the curse. Paul says God gives us over into our iniquities, and that his wrath will be revealed at the end of time. The New Testament portrays Christ's sacrifice both as an expiation for sin, as well as a ransom to the devil so that Jesus, by his divinity, being able to raise himself anew, now is the one who has the power over death and Hades.
God paying a ransom to the devil? utter nonsense
It's rooted in the teachings of the early fathers as well as the New Testament. This was the original theory of atonement in Christianity. Hosea 13:14, Mark 10:45, Acts 20:28, 1 Timothy 2:5-8, Hebrews 2:14, Revelation 1:8
What about the idea of being ransomed from God and God requiring the ransom price?
That would negate the necessity of grace then.
You get grace to spare you from God's punishment coming to you for your corrupt nature. The lamb died a substitutionary death as picrel states like in the OT. It was a fulfillment of the OT where lambs died in your place as substitution. This was God's ransom price because God needs blood and justice.
Penal Substitutionary Atonement is a joke
God forgives if you are repentant
PSA means He is incapable of forgiveness which contradicts every teaching ever
I don't disagree with you that it's a substitutionary death, and yes Christ's offering saves us from God's wrath, but it is not a ransom paid to God, because the Bible says it was Satan who initially held the curse of death over us, not God. I again don't necessarily disagree that death was a punishment put on Adam and Eve, but it was Satan holding it over them, God gives us OVER to our iniquities, to the power of sin which finds its origin in death. The ransom was paid to the Devil, and the earliest Fathers support this theory of atonement. Penal substitution is a medieval legalistic interpretation of the Bible, it doesn't take into account many crucial concepts found in the Torah that made their way into Paul. God's wrath will be revealed at the end of time, so unless you accept limited atonement and double predestination, why not just believe in universal salvation if you believe Christ took on God's wrath for human sin on the cross?
Because the Bible doesn't say there is universal salvation. Picrel is a cause against universal salvation and specifically against the concept of even invincible ignorance saving.
I agree with you about there being no universal salvation, I'm saying that universal salvation would be the logical outcome of Penal Substitution assuming you don't also hold to double predestination like Calvin did.
Imagine someone has unlimited funds and enough tickets to send to everyone. Imagine there is an island of people who did not seek truth so that person did not send theme park tickets their way to the island. Do you see where I'm going with this? If someone seeks truth and wants to know what is true instead of false, God sends an angel or missionary or dream to convert them. If they are left unconverted at death, it's for a reason. So in this scenario the island is not given theme park tickets.
Your analogy isn't Biblical or in line with the Fathers.
Is this view of picrel in line with the church fathers on the unredeemed man? That we are also saved from our evil nature that makes us only fit to be with demons and the devil?
Well I'm not a Pelagian, so yeah of course I agree for the need of grace. We cannot come to God on our own without his help, but this doesn't annihilate free will.
Does it negate free will to state we will give into temptation every time without God's help? Or does it just simply describe human nature?
Humans have an inclination towards sin, so our nature has been effected, but a careful reading of the New Testament reveals a certain degree of co-operation on part of the believer in responding to God's grace. Before we come to faith, God gives us prevenient grace (or efficacious grace according to some interpretations) that align us in accordance with him allowing us to then receive his other gifts that work in us for good works.
Is this a good or bad explanation of the relationship between faith and works?
While yes our good works do prove our faith, they don't prove it on the part of God alone, but on the believer's co-operation with God's work. The believer's response to God's grace is what determines if he has true faith or not. Not that we cannot sin after being justified, even against others, but once again the Reformed mental gymnastics that have to be done to justify their understanding of salvation in light of this passage do not follow. This chapter literally denies the doctrine of Sola Fide EXPLICITLY.
I don't think you can correctly state the reformed view
You always say that when someone refutes your positions. Why can't you just accept that your position is the weaker one?
I don't, you haven't
I say it because you pretend to have argued against the thing you haven't defined
Yeah you actually do, I've seen you do it with other anons. And I'm not doing a systematic critique of the Reformed position here, I am only responding to what the other anon was attempting to show me, from my position.
I also wonder if this is a good take on justification.
Also as this other pic states, justice demands blood. Redemption of the sinner must come through death therefore there must be a substitutionary death.
As the author states, without God's help we will fall to temptation every single time. Picrel.
Scene: domestic wife killing, YHWH county, Texas
>You as a Cop: Why did you kill your wife, sir?
>Wife-strangler: I didn't strangle her; she strangled herself - by her unfaithful behavior.
>You as a Cop: That's fine sir. Have a nice day.
Inappropriate analogy because God is the life-giver for all of creation. Just because our Lord has given us a life, that doesn't create some kind of obligation to keep doing it forever unless He chooses to.
Here is a passage from the Bible that I like to use:
"Shall even he that hateth right govern? and wilt thou condemn him that is most just?
18 Is it fit to say to a king, Thou art wicked? and to princes, Ye are ungodly?
19 How much less to him that accepteth not the persons of princes, nor regardeth the rich more than the poor? for they all are the work of his hands."
So it's OK for parents to kill their children, and successive progeny, at any time of the latter's life?
Is it OK for Westerners to kill thousands or millions of people in the Global South whose lives are saved by their donations?
Using your moral logic, it is, because they own the lives they have produced or saved.
Also, God is infinitely powerful, and thus any creative processes he enacts incur no effort whatsoever or sacrifice on his part. So it's just another flavor of Might is Right.
Do I need to read the 10 commandments where it says "Thou shalt not kill"?
OT god: "It's wrong to kill something you create"
Also OT God: <commits vast genocides>
The commandments aren't commandments from God to God, they're commandments from God to Man. Otherwise that'd just be asinine.
OT God is pretty clearly outside of the framework of our morality.
It's just a tribal god of one semitic tribe, a kind of supernatural big chief. How can anyone sane consider this figure a universal god for humanity? It's archaic thinking, that's what it is. Like thinking that the world is flat.
>Modern times need a modern approach to what God is. If anyone thinks morality is found in Leviticus, they belong in a padded cell.
We are created, not the Creator.
There there is something rather than nothing, and that this depends on a god-like something - I find reasonable. How is beyond our ability to reason.
But lying to ourselves by repurposing (through theological autism, lies, and magical thinking) archaic religions ... ain't gonna make it.
So the God of the universe is bound by israeli religious law, concerning sin and sacrifice? ngmi. Obviously what we have here is a tribal god of the israelites who's been upgraded with theological pilpul to all mankind's deity.
How was Jesus' sacrifice of any value if Jesus was one with God and had defeated death merely by existing?
commandments of God (aka love) = life
sin = death
Christ provided the model for us to live without sin
ergo he provided the way for us to overcome death
Okay that doesn't answer my question at all.
How does Jesus' sacrifice and subsequent trespass beyond Death hold any significance for Man if Jesus was never mortal Man but always fully God?
Christ is fully Divine & fully human
yes it's a paradox
yes it's still true
Doesn't it seem to defy theological meaning, though? Christ's procession from man to sacrificial lamb to angel is carried out in a way that almost explicitly enforces a progression towards the trinity, a roadmap for early Christians to follow. To insist that the trinity is a flat constant is like insisting that Buddha had already escaped samsara and achieved nirvana but decided to sit under a tree for a long time anyways. Its like insisting that Adam and Eve were always damned from the Garden of Eden and eating the fruit didn't matter at all.
I don't think noticing the clear progression from mortality to divinity and understanding this as a progression into the trinity is at all at odds with the omnipotence of God. Rather, I find it funny that the most devout and faithful adherents of an omnipotent God demand a dogmatically uncomplicated narrative.
Well the NT does make God out to be triune, and there are foreshadows to diversity within God in the OT. The Church did develop its understanding about these relations within God in response to other attempts to systematize what exactly this means, the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth as Jesus promised us, so we have grown in understanding about the doctrine, this doesn't mean the Trinity hasn't always been believed, its just that we haven't always had the same language that we do now to actually describe it, the purpose of which was to combat perceived heresy.
>the purpose of which was to combat perceived heresy
and this is why I dispose of dogma on principal. Too much of the doctrine of the Church is colored by a focus on politically and culturally opposing heterodox theology. The larger the Church grew, the more secularized and self-serving its dogma became.
That's not a paradox
Beautifully said, OP. Have a peaceful Sabath.
How long until christianity dies?
Imagine unironically believing this voodoo shit. Why the fuck would ritually killing one living thing have some sort of effect on another living being?
All religions believe this sacrificial blood-magic garbage to some extent just because there is some primitive lizard-brain presumption in the human psyche that that's how things work, so that someone like you gets on your computer and unironically proclaims that some guy got tortured to death 2,000 years ago and this has a metaphysical effect which lasts to this day. Like this makes sense or adheres in any way to the way the world rationally and empirically works.
How about you go play some D&D, that's clearly the sort of fantasy-world your mind belongs.
Baiting attempt failed.
You are correct.
This is Meditteranean pilpul: construct an alleged universal god for an official Roman empire religion, from a parochial israeli tribal god. Much mental gymnastics involved, some of it very clever, mostly incoherent; and indoctrinate people when they are children so they believe it as fact. And then threaten them with the worst punishment imaginable if they stray from the path. It's a neat system of mind control.
You are retarded. No serious academic thinks this.
If you can point out anything which is substantially untrue, go ahead. BTW, mental gymnastics, early indoctrination, and threat of divine punishment widespread in all trad religions, so no need to feel persecuted.
Imagine the aroma
>the power of death which was in the hands of Satan.
Where does the Bible say this?
>Christ offers himself up as an innocent victim
wtf is this human god sacrifice shit?
Yes, Jesus became my high priest through his righteous shed blood so I wouldn’t have to. As a Christian our tribulation is not ever tightening and getting worse. We already went through our tribulation and Satan delayed his. That is why Satan is going to hell.
Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven.
>Sends people to hell for growing up in the wrong part of the world
Stop being a racist christosatanist.
Try acting morally rather than psychopathically.
Tough ask, eh?
>writes an entirely fabricated left field off topic curse
>calls random Christians psychotic
If I wasn’t the one writing christian posts online, you would be writing the same bullshit to God and Jesus Christ, and you would be burning in hell and dead.
>calls random Christians psychotic
Not random christians. Demonic faux-christians like you who ascribe to an allegedly lovingly God the traits of an evil demon, principally a desire to inflict as much suffering to as many as possible for as long as possible (for ever).
IOW, you believe that the principal relationship of your god (actually satan) with the vast majority of human beings is torturing them in a live-cremation fun park. For eternity.
For those of us who are not heavily medicated, it's clear that you are, at heart, a satanist.
You will burn in hell heretic antichrist Satan mother fucker.
>You will burn in hell heretic antichrist Satan mother fucker.
Whoopsie! Sending yourself to hell by knowingly disobeying the real Jesus, satanist charlatan.
"Judge not, that ye be judged"
The Christ Jesus does have the keys to hell. We’re not changing the gospel for you.
>change Christianity to no messages about hell plz
>the Bible isn’t the word of God cuz I have to rewrite it to say no hell for anyone…
Christians preaching the gospel with the eternal lake of fire with it are going to Heaven. This is the truth. Take it or go to hell.
>Twist scripture to change God from a just and infinitely loving Creator, to the most evil demon imaginable who tortures the entire human race for ever ... BECAUSE HE JUST WANTS TO, OK?
>In other words: christosatanism (satanism masquerading as christianity)
Jesus and Melchizedek are the same person.
And finally in 1900s, Paramahansa Yogananda (PBUH), gave us the right interpretation. Om Shanti Shanti Shanti.