Calvinism Makes God Look Arbitrary

The error he makes is the doctrine of unconditional election. Of course, election is conditional. God uses divine knowledge to know who to save. People just aren't arbitrarily picked. It's for a reason because God does everything with reason and purpose.

God does use divine knowledge. God foreknew Paul would be a valuable asset in converting people far before he was born thus decided to save Paul and write him in the book of life before birth. They believe God is arbitrary. I don't. I believe God is calculating, planned, and deliberate. Everything He does and decrees is for a specific reason and His knowledge is endless. God is therefore the master chess player.

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  1. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Calvinism, like most protestant heresies, is just Islam for whites

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      They also say free will does not exist in many cases when it clearly does. God's sovereignty and free will are entirely compatible.

      God knows person A will react a certain way so God intentionally places the person in that situation so person A will react this way. God isn't causing them to react this way but placing someone in deliberate situations so that the plan is fulfilled. For example, God knew Judas would betray Christ so God intentionally placed Judas as born in Israel over 2000 years ago and intentionally set up his life so he would become a disciple so that God's will be done. Each situation was deliberately crafted to get Judas to act but because Judas did as he had pleased and wanted it was still free will.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      except islam, meaning the 90% of it called sunni islam, agrees with the catholics about predestination and free will, namely that both are real and we weren't meant to understand how they could coexist. the difference is that catholicism emphasizes the free will part and islam the predestination part. calvinism originally denied human free will, although that's such a bitter pill to swallow that they immediately started to dilute it with bullshit.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        I believe we can explain how they can coexist, hence my theory. God knows person A will react a certain way so God intentionally places the person in that situation so person A will react this way. God isn't causing them to react this way but placing someone in deliberate situations so that the plan is fulfilled. For example, God knew Judas would betray Christ so God intentionally placed Judas as born in Israel over 2000 years ago and intentionally set up his life so he would become a disciple so that God's will be done. Each situation was deliberately crafted to get Judas to act but because Judas did as he had pleased and wanted it was still free will.

        Any thoughts on this theory? There was no scenario planned where Judas could have not betrayed Christ, yet it was free will.

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          If God has foreseen me take the red pill then in what way have I made a choice? I will take the red pill as God cannot be wrong, so why even have the blue pill as an option?

          God saw my choice before he created me which means that God made the choice.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            It's free will in the sense you took the red pill out of your own will and wanting to do this. It's God's choice in the sense that God is the one who structured your life in order to ensure you took that red pill. God knows how you react to every scenario and knows just which scenarios to rig in order for you to do His bidding and will.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      Calvinism is probably a worse heresy than Catholicism or orthodoxy. But Catholicism and orthodoxy are both heresies, themselves. They are most certainly not the original church, provably.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      >Islam

      Pic related.

  2. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    > God uses divine knowledge to know who to save.
    Schizo, what the hell are you talking about?
    You are supposed to just tell people about Jesus and ask if they want to be saved. You aren’t God, you can’t play schizo mind powers and pretend you can talk about who is saved and who isn’t.
    All YOU can do, as well as I, and everyone else, is the exact same as offering the name of Jesus as the Lord, the Savior, God’s Son and only mediator between sinners and God the Father.
    >let me talk about all 10 dimensions and calculate all possibilities of all realities about who is saved!
    Are you Saruman the Wise or something?

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      It's using logic. If God is omnipotent, God has knowledge of everything that is, will be, and is possible. God is also deliberate as we see in how the Earth is designed. Our DNA is very intricate and deliberate.

      Even apart from these, people could fall at a single breath
      when pursued by justice
      and scattered by the breath of your power.
      But you have arranged all things by measure and number and weight.

      As we can clearly see, God numbers everything and gives deliberate measure. Hence everything is deliberate including God's plan for salvation.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        Nah I just go as things come.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous
  3. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    God is so deliberate He sets up leaders and determines our health, talents, days of our lives, and finances.

  4. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Why does Paul get any credit for converting people if everyone's place is predestined?

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      Because Paul was using His free will to do what He wished to in conversion. God, however, was setting up the dominos so that Paul would react to different situations God put Him in. Thus is a combination of God's set up and free will. God sets up the dominos or the Sims so to speak knowing what they would do in every situation thus making God's destined will happen.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        Why is Jehovah (not God) such a manipulative egotistical bastard? Did he go psychotic because he wasn't good enough to be a real god and had to be worshipped by American cultists whose religion's roots go about as deep as their family trees'?

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          Hell yeah, more Dave Sim style psycho YooWhoo bullshit plz

  5. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Thus because God sets these scenarios up, you are both doing God's own bidding and your own free will. Free will in the sense you wish to do these things.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      >God sets these scenarios up
      You mean like the scenario "Believe in me or burn in hellfire"

      Does that choice really involve free will?

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        God actively sets up all conversions and bestows grace yet there is free will. This is a divine mystery.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        >Does that choice really involve free will?
        it does not exclude it. free will would not be constrained by threats and consequences; it would be constrained by a god restricting possible futures to a single branch by merely knowing that that branch will materialize.

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          To me, it's not just knowing what would materialize though but specifically setting up the scenarios like dominos. For example if God's plan is for person A to marry person B and make kid C, God has person A and person born in the same neighborhood so they become high school sweethearts and has person A be very needy so she wants to hold on to the first man she gets with. God keeps setting up scenarios but people are doing their own will. It's like placing a mouse in a room full of cheese knowing the mouse will eat it or placing a dog in the middle of a river knowing it will swim. God sets up scenario after scenario and sets them up like dominos.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Which means God put innocent young women in Ted Bundy's way, knowing full well he would murder them with a tire iron and rape their corpses.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >It's like placing a mouse in a room full of cheese knowing the mouse will eat it
            but you don't know this. only statistically speaking can we claim the mouse will eat the cheese. the odds of it not touching the cheese are slim but existent. that is not so with something an omniscient and omnipotent god sets up.
            I also have a beef with god setting up things. we need to set up things, make plans etc. because we are limited beings having to navigate a maze of physical and logical constraints in order to reach our goals. none of those constraints apply to god, he just mentally snaps his fingers and lo, it is done.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Correct. God is omnipotent and knows exactly what someone will do in every single situation and what it would take in that situation for the person to do God's will and decree. God wants certain things done. This is why He uses plans. Sure God can just snap His fingers but He does what He does for a deliberate reason. It's an unfolding story.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >God wants certain things done. This is why He uses plans. Sure God can just snap His fingers but He does what He does for a deliberate reason.
            reasons he also does not need to have. we have reasons pointing to intermediate steps in a plan; I move my bishop to a7 and my reason for that is that this opens up the d file for the attack I was planning for the last twelve moves etc. none of this applies to a god.
            this god of yours sounds awfully like a not very well thought out myth, and that's why you have to flip-flop between an omni-sovereign god and a god-with-human-traits-and-limitations the whole time. patching up a clusterfrick of myths can be like that.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            This. Like, why would an omnipotent being who literally created the universe ex nihilo need to allow certain evils to achieve some greater good, instead of, you know, actualizing that greater good instantly?

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous
          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            It's like asking why enjoy food if a magical pill can make you full. The experience is worth it.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Bone cancer in children only adds to God's glory

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >It's like asking why enjoy food if a magical pill can make you full.
            why indeed.
            >The experience is worth it.
            it was god's decree that "the experience is worth it". he could have decreed otherwise. you seem to argue that rules like "the experience is worth it" are somehow axiomatic and thus limiting god.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            God creates for a purpose. If we lived according to your conclusions God would not create at all because He has no need but God does have wants. One of these wants is experience and the stories of life.

            Yes the Bible tells us he who thirsts for righteousness will be filled. This appears to be how one is elect, or drawn out as the word says. If somebody is thirsting for righteousness, God draws them out, or elects them. And then Jesus intervenes and we can then do good through him.

            This is why I don't believe invincible ignorance can save. If someone is born in another country who never gets access to the Gospel it means God didn't predestine them for a reason.

            The Bible doesn't say babies are born guilty of any sin. We are just born with the consequences of Adam's sin which is the curse of Adam and death. But it's no more the guilt of the baby than fetal alcohol syndrome would be the guilt of a baby whose mother drank during the pregnancy. In fact the Bible tells us straight up that the son does not inherit the guilt of the Father.

            They are born guilty of original sin but not committed sins. This is the view Saint Augustine, doctor of the church held.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >This is why I don't believe invincible ignorance can save. If someone is born in another country who never gets access to the Gospel it means God didn't predestine them for a reason.
            It's hard to imagine what reason God would have to damn a sinless baby. Besides, if someone has never had a chance to hear the word, The Bible tells us that God wrote his laws on every man's heart. And the man who thirst for righteousness will be filled. So anyone who is following God's laws on their hearts and do not have access to the word, we'll eventually be granted more knowledge. That could be through a ministry, a street preacher perhaps, but perhaps even an angelic visit. But they will be filled.
            >They are born guilty of original sin but not committed sins. This is the view Saint Augustine, doctor of the church held.
            Yes, Augustine was an ex Gnostic. This is something he borrowed from their belief system. A cornerstone of narcissism is the idea that "sin" is almost substantive and it lives in the flesh. That is passed down in the flesh. If you read a lot of the early writings from the church fathers like Irenaeus, they were constantly identifying this doctrine the gnostics held. Paul even addresses it in his letters in various points. But that's all it is. It's not biblical. Babies are born sinless. Jesus tells us that we must become like little babies again in order to see the kingdom.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >God creates for a purpose
            "purpose" does not apply to an omnipotent god. we humans experience having a purpose in the gap where we want something but do not (yet) have it. a god would just imagine the end result into actuality.
            >He has no need but God does have wants
            a distinction without a difference. again, we have wants because there's a gap, a tension between what we want and what we have. the experience of this tension is what we call a "want". can you fill in the blamks about why this would not happen to a god?

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            If God did nothing for a purpose we wouldn't exist and there wouldn't be intelligently designed things. If God did nothing for a purpose, we wouldn't see the intricate art of a snowflake or see the beauty of the galaxies. Creation itself implies God has wants.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            there's a better explanation for all that: there's no god. or he is capricious as frick, no reasons for anything he does.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            I believe the opposite. I believe God is so deliberate He powers every life. If someone dies it's because God has withdrawn His life force from the person. God is so deliberate your days are numbered and the hairs on your head are numbered. God is so deliberate your DNA is designed and your parents and country of birth were picked from the world's foundation.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            so why do you argue with me against full determination + no real choice?

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            There is choice in the sense the soul does whatever it wants. My definition of free will is doing what you want even if you were rigged to do this.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            the soul wants whatever god scripted him to want.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            actually, it's not rigged. it's scripted. if there's a single future knowable to god, a movie reel of all that happens including mental processes, as a god having foreknowledge implies, then all that is scripted.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            It's not just foreknowledge, events are engineered. Knowledge however is used to make these decisions, for nothing happens without the will or permission of God.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            *we* need to engineer outcomes. an omnipotent god just snaps his fingers.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            God writes backwards. For example, our names are written in the book of life before the world's foundation for a reason. Those who are written in the book God guarantees salvation. Sure He "could" snap His fingers but this is all done for a purpose and deliberation.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            once again, he does not have to bow to reasons to do something in a given way. what is it about omnipotence that so taxes the imagination of the theist?

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            But if you were to take this logic to its conclusion then God wouldn't have bothered to make anything at all. Then at which point could His omnipotent power be shown at all, or would it merely be an invisible possibility? Creation itself implies want and want implies reason.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            exactly. why would he create anything? capriciousness, that's why.
            also, why would he need to "show his omnipotent power", is he a narcissist?
            actually, as a mere projection by narcissistic people, inna sense he is.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >Creation itself implies want and want implies reason.
            and all this implies limitedness, non-omnipotence. pick your poison: either god is limited or he is capricious.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            But could an entity that creates nothing rightfully be called God in any sense of the word? Can an entity with no wants rightfully be called God?

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            before creation, god was not a god, then? or maybe he did not really have a choice either and just had to create the universe? this discussion is veering into theological domains no man has gone to before.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >I believe the opposite
            yabut that's illogical.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            It's not illogical. It goes along with this quote in the book of Wisdom.

            Even apart from these, people could fall at a single breath
            when pursued by justice
            and scattered by the breath of your power.
            But you have arranged all things by measure and number and weight

            Also this in the book of Job

            5 A man’s days are numbered. You know the number of his months. He cannot live longer than the time You have set.

            Or this in Luke:

            Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            I don't care about the bible, the quran or any other garbage. I was arguing starting fromthe ifea of an omniscient, omnipotent god. so the bible contradicts this, so what? there is no god, are you surprised his holy books are self-contradicting bullshit?

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >actualizing

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            *actualizes a potential fart*

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            There's no story if there's no antagonist or issue in the way.

  6. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Christianity itself makes God look completely arbitrary.
    >killing my son will pay for your sins
    >because...it just does, okay?
    >don't abort, it's murder
    >kill those infants I don't like though
    >God is triune because he is love
    >forget that part about love, if you're not willing to worship a trinity that doesn't make sense to you because you're a monotheist you'll burn in hell forever

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      a certain non-zero level of incoherency is beneficial for cults; when the price of error is so high as everlasting damnation, it pays to implicitly suggest that you better don't do your own thinking because your chances to arrive at the "correct" conclusion are nil, where "correct" means "approved by the religious establishment". as an additional bonus it gives complete freedom to aforesaid authorities to claim whatever they want due to ex falso quod libet.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      1. What happened are two things
      1. Jesus paid for our sins and took our place on the cross.
      2. Jesus freed souls from the dominion of the devil.

      Abortion is murder and violates the natural law. Conversely, there was a reason for whatever God had someone do.

      God is love but the trinity is a test for obedience. God gives the grace for people to believe in the trinity and to cooperate with God's plan. Believing in the trinity without trying to undermine it is a test of obedience to the Lord before thinking.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        >Jesus paid for our sins and took our place on the cross.
        the question is what exactly changed, i.e. what does this word salad even mean.
        >Jesus freed souls from the dominion of the devil.
        same as above. what exactly is different now?
        read the OP and try to understand what we are after. yours are just parroted words without the slightest attempt to explain anything.

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          Imagine you have a debt to pay of 10 million and if you don't pay up the Mob boss will kill you. Jesus pays that debt for you. He took the hit and the punishment in our place.

          As for the dominion of the devil, because of original sin and other issues, nobody except for Elijah and Enoch could go to heaven. Everyone went to a place in Hades. This freed people from going to Hades automatically. Now people like Abraham were on the good side of it but they would still see things like fire.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            read.
            the.
            OP.
            people still sin. people still go to hell for sinning, JUST AS BEFORE. so what changed in this dynamics?
            by now you should have realized that spewing familiar word salad cannot address a question you never arrived at. sit back and think.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            The difference is that not everyone has to go to hell, only some people do. The difference is heaven is opened up for the elect.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            so before jesus not even the elect went to heaven?

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Nope but they were still the elect because they were let out of Abraham's Bosom when Jesus paid the price on the cross. This was planned all along.

  7. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    If you believe God is all knowing, then we are all predetermined to heaven or hell.
    Simple as.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      We are double predetermined to heaven. Hell is a default location so this is single and not double predetermined.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        >Hell is a default location
        It's the default location according to the afterlife system God created, so God still predestinates people to Hell.

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          They are predestined in the sense the future is already written. Not predestined as in active action. For example, say 1000 people are drowning and the lifeguard saves 300 and skips over 700 on purpose. They were predetermined to drown but also were the ones who got into the water in the first place using their will. He who receives pardon, says St. Augustine, is pardoned through the pure mercy of God; and they who are chastised, are justly punished.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >say 1000 people are drowning and the lifeguard saves 300 and skips over 700 on purpose.
            Any normal human being would consider that lifeguard to be deeply inmoral.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            But what if the lifeguard had an apt reason to skip over them aka he had known that 700 would try to knock over the ship in the future so that all drown?

  8. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Calvinism literally makes no sense. When you point things out which are completely and objectively consequential of Calvinist doctrine, like pic related, Calvinists will just tell you that you're misrepresenting Calvinism. It's hilarious.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      I don't see how pic related is suppose to be a knock down against Calvinism, if anything that line of thinking is a pretty solid argument against the idea that people have free will.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      The doubt and the question were both predetermined.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        The point is Jesus is asking. Yet he should already know. Jesus made him doubt. It's nonsensical. But that's Calvinism.

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          >It's nonsensical. But that's Calvinism.

          What's nonsensical here is that you refuse to accept the reasons for why Calvinism exists in the first place, which is the logical incoherence between humans having actual free will, and God being omnipotent and omniscient.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            I figured it out. People are like Sims or dominos; God sets up scenarios and knows exactly how people will react to them. Thus, God's deliberate will gets done AND people do their free will. God sets up your life in this way. But still the numbers of your life, your health, and your talents are set by God as well as your opportunities and money. Yet there is free will because the soul does what it wants.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            I don't see where the problem is with free will and omnipotence. Just because God can control us doesn't mean that he does. He desires love to exist. Sure he could just kind of push a button on the back of our necks and make us express what appears to be love, but that's not actual love. For love to truly exist, one must have the option to choose evil. This doesn't contradict omnipotence whatsoever. It is God's will for this. Are you saying God is not sovereign enough or powerful enough to grant us free will?

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            My view is God doesn't make us do anything but puts us deliberately in situations where He knows we WILL do something. Thus Judas was destined to betray Christ but God didn't make him, he just set up all the scenarios as a set of dominos. What's this view make me?

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >Just because God can control us doesn't mean that he does.

            That's not the point. The point is that if God knew 5 billion years before your were born whether or not you would be a saint or a sinner, then your freedom doesn't matter. Free will only has moral weight if you *could've* chosen something differently, but God already knows what you, in fact, will choose, so you can't choose differently.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            God actively works to save those who are the elect or predestined. Those who are not the elect He merely skips over grace or has them born into a country where they would never become converted to the true faith.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Sounds like cope to me.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            How is this cope? Imagine 1000 people are drowning in their state of sin. God before the foundation of the world knew He would pick 300 of them to salvation as God numbers everything. Thus for good reason picks the 300 to rescue in a boat. This is a good analogy.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            None of that matters so long as we are making the choices. God's knowledge of what we will choose does not mean he makes those choices for us. Your statements are confusing because it allocates that we are making the choice. But then says we are not choosing it. Nonsensical. But this is the fruit of Calvinism. It's senseless.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            you don't understand that if god knows five billion years earlier what choice will you make, then you don't make a choice in any meaningful way? all the agonizing over choices plus the final outcome are predetermined to the minutest imaginable detail. this does not confer any sort of moral responsibility.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Not him but we make the choice in the sense we are doing the actions we want. Things are both rigged and our choice. Salvation is different from damnation however because it's supernatural and requires grace not only to believe but additional grace to cooperate with the grace given. Thus there is an uneven exchange.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >in the sense we are doing the actions we want
            in a godded universe, we want what god wants us to want, no exceptions.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            God changes wants through grace at times. For example, with Paul. Paul had wanted to know the truth and God had foreknown his pivotal role in converting others to the faith. This is why God used grace to change his beliefs and the grace to carry out the plan and cooperate with what God had wanted to do.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            so what? paul still did exactly what was acripted for him, change or no change.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            I'm saying that God's will is guaranteed to be done in a case where you are called. There is no universe in which Paul would not have been the one chosen to carry out the will. This was very deliberated.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            I'm not arguing any of that. I'm not denying that God sets up the chess board perfectly depending on his knowledge of our choices. That does not take away from the fact that they are still our choices to make. If someone chooses their way to hell, it is their own choice. And God's knowledge that they would do so does not take away from it being their choice.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            One more thing. I think you were suggesting that God sets some people up where he knows they will make choices if he lays out the hurdles in front of them in a certain way that will ultimately land them in hell or land them in heaven. However that is completely speculative and is not in line with the Bible where it says God desires all of us to be one with him.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            that wasn't me. I don't think an omnipotent god would do anything in such an indirect way. well, he would not have to. he still might, if he enjoys setting up his beloved creatures for failure.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            This was me (other poster you replied to was not) but it still makes sense given the stories of the Bible. Consider Jonah. The entire story was rigged so that he would go preach to Ninevah. The fish swallowing him was also rigged. God had needed Jonah for the plan so Jonah couldn't just say no. Through rigging the scenarios and giving grace, God changed Jonah's mind. God's will be done.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      Some people have despised the truth already, so they are not given the grace to believe. If someone is not given the grace to believe it's for a reason. God is not arbitrary. God is calculating.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        The point is Jesus not only made him doubt but is then asking him why he doubted. It makes no sense. Calvinism is self-contradictory or it makes Jesus out to be a deceiver. Kevin doesn't make some god out to be worse than the devil.

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          God doesn't make people doubt but when people want delusions God gives delusions.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            According to Calvinism, If someone doubts, they are predestined to. This God is making them doubt. So according to scripture, God is making them doubt and then asking them why they are doubting.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            This is where I believe in single predestination to hell instead of double. They are merely not given the grace or opportunity to believe. This is an area I differ with Calvinists on.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Yes original Calvinism, or hypercalvanism as it's called today, was nonsensical. There are more moderate Calvinists that at least make God out to be less demonic and sadistic than original Calvinism did.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            My view is God doesn't make us do anything but puts us deliberately in situations where He knows we WILL do something. Thus Judas was destined to betray Christ but God didn't make him, he just set up all the scenarios as a set of dominos. What's this view make me? This is how I reconcile God's will being done at all times and free will.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            And that is in line with open theism. This is how the crucifixion was done as well. He knew what people would do. But that does not negate the fact that these are our own choices. So God knows how to set up the chess board. However Calvinism goes way beyond that.

  9. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    It is really funny how people will nod their heads at the properties of god and what the scripture says, but when you actually analyze it and come to the logical conclusion of Calvinism, they all of a sudden shriek

  10. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    I don't listen to lawyers, let alone French ones

  11. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    I agree. I believe salvation is double predestined however because friendship with God is supernatural and not natural. God has to give grace in order for someone to believe or to be saved. Thus those whom God predestines for heaven before birth are set for heaven before the world's foundation and God actively works to save them and convert them with grace. Those who go to hell are merely skipped over as they are not on the list of the elect, not double predestined.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      Yes the Bible tells us he who thirsts for righteousness will be filled. This appears to be how one is elect, or drawn out as the word says. If somebody is thirsting for righteousness, God draws them out, or elects them. And then Jesus intervenes and we can then do good through him.

  12. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Why doesn't god just snap his fricking fingers and save everyone?
    What the hell is the point of this whole thing?

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      First of all we are born in a state of original sin and God must forgive this original sin in addition to other sins we commit. Everything is done and calculated for a reason. Just as God asked Abraham to kill his own kid for a reason. This is not arbitrary.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        The Bible doesn't say babies are born guilty of any sin. We are just born with the consequences of Adam's sin which is the curse of Adam and death. But it's no more the guilt of the baby than fetal alcohol syndrome would be the guilt of a baby whose mother drank during the pregnancy. In fact the Bible tells us straight up that the son does not inherit the guilt of the Father.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        >God must
        there's nothing an omnipotent being *must*

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          In order to get to heaven, both original sin and committed sins must be forgiven because we are born children of wrath. As children of wrath it is a supernatural act to forgive us.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            stock phrases, no meaning.

  13. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    1. St. Basil, St. Jerome, St. John Chrysostom, St. Augustine and other fathers, teach, that as God according to the words of Scripture, "Thou hast ordered all things in measure, and number, and weight" – Wis. 11:21 has fixed for each person the number of the days of his life, and the degrees of health and talent which He will give him

  14. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    There are reasons for suffering. Pic related.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      the only logical conclusion is that god wants us to suffer. that's the reason we are suffering. god has no reason to arrange things this way, though. it capriciousness all the way down.

  15. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Suffering in some cases is a result of the love of God, chastisement to bring the sinner to repent. Suffering in other cases, is punishment to the sinner because they have not wanted the truth. This is why God puts bad leaders into power at times.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      >chastisement to bring the sinner to repent
      he could snap his fingers etc., but nooo.
      told you, it's capriciousness all the way down.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        He could but then there would be no storyline in which the sinner is driven to see his mortality and past actions and God gives him the grace to repent. If there's no story, there's no plot.

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          that could be the reason why an otherwise false teaching could arise but how is the need for a plot important to truth?

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Like any good court system, God collects evidence on the guilty defendant. Life allows a means of collecting the evidence.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            omniscience doesn't mean a thing, then? he doesn't know the outcome?

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            He knows the outcome already but collects evidence so that He can say to the guilty party "See. You did this, this, and this and you did not accept salvation".

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            why is that important to a god? he could just teleport his foreknowledge into the mind of the sinner (although the better question is, why the entire charade, why create anything).

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Because it makes God look fairer and more just and because there is no point of a movie or book without a story and elements like the protagonist, antagonist, problems, and solutions.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            except there's really no point to the story. god watches a puppet show of his own scripting and performed by himself.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Why does a movie director make a film or an author write a book? It's the same thing.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            because he is a limited human who has needs that can only be fulfilled this way. a god could do a lot of other things, like not allow the need to arise in the first place, or make it satisfiable by a number of other means.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Have you ever thought that maybe creation was fun to God and so was crafting these storylines?

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            yeah, he needs fun. it's the theist with the needs of an omnieverything god again.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous
          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            But does he read his own books? Or do people read books written by other people?

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            I believe authors read their own books sometimes.

  16. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    >Of course, election is conditional
    So you believe in works-salvation. Or some other doctrine where people need to earn their own way to heaven.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      I believe it's conditional based on foreknowledge. For example, God foreknew Paul would be a valuable asset in converting people to the faith and writing the letters and was thus saved. A former murderer may have more value in God's plan than someone who just stole a cookie but still the election is conditional based on the usefulness to the plan.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      And you believe in a God without plan or deliberation. God engineers works to happen in His chosen people by giving them the grace to cooperate with grace so that their wills conform to His as predicted since before the world's foundation.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        Calvinism is literally so disgusting that I don't even like to think about it. Calvinists probably in their arrogance think they're special and better than anyone else. They are the holy chosen ones, let everyone else just go to hell.

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          sure, but the problem is that an omnipotent and omniscient god is necessarily isomorphic with the calvinist god.

  17. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    My view: God does everything for a specific reason and God is very planned and deliberate. God is like a writer or master chess player.

    Calvinism: God arbitrarily picks people for His own glory and nothing else. There is no big elaborate scheme. God is like an arbitrary dictator.

  18. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Every story needs setbacks

  19. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    As you can see, God creates the characters of the story, people and animals. These characters are given stat points like in a video game. One may have 10 intelligence points and another 5 points. These characters are given their DNA and personality.

    God also creates the settings. God creates the different landscapes of the world and also the time and era. God creates undercurrents.

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