>btfos the eternal midwit
Why are game engine devs always such moggers?
>btfos the eternal midwit
>btfos the eternal midwit
Falling into your wing while paragliding is called 'gift wrapping' and turns you into a dirt torpedo pic.twitter.com/oQFKsVISkI— Mental Videos (@MentalVids) March 15, 2023
Well, it's difficult work, and one of the few areas of programming where "who gives a fuck about efficiency, we have hardware capability to spare lmao" doesn't fly (since you always want to push the boundaries of what games can do to get more sales, while also running on as many computers as possible, again for more sales) so it acts as an extreme filter. Only the best can do it successfully.
As an extreme poorfag I would like to raise an objection to this notion that gamedevs are good at optimizing.
I have seen games where the starting GUI brings the hardware to a crawl, and others where you could lower quality so much that it ran at literal gameboy resolutions and still couldn't get more than 2fps on hardware capable of running other similar tasks at 200.
The phenomenon where a new game at 'low settings' looks considerably worse than an older one on 'high settings' while demanding massive improvement in hardware capability is well known, and directly contradicts the muh optimization meme. It runs like shit and looks like shit - what exactly was optimized? Development time? Yeah.
Latest example of total gamedev retardation I may offer is KSP 2. Fuck you and fuck your memes.
runs on Unity, so nothing they can do about fundamental engine issues. But also that studio is pretty incompetent.
As for GUI crawling your game, it's probably because a lot of AAA studios have forgotten how to make user interfaces and so they embed a web browser to run the GUI for them. (I'm not joking)
This is about engine devs not game devs who develop games in said engines
Fair enough then.
Game devs make games in engines. If the game is poorly optimized it’s often a symptom of the underlying engine.
Also the line between “game dev” and “engine dev” is not as clear as you think. Often these two overlap.
Well, game engine devs probably have experience with game dev. But this does not go the other way.
There's no clear distinction between game development and game engine development
game engine development doesn't have to be game development at all
a game engine made with no consideration paid to game development is useless
making hammers and making tables are two different things
Terrible analogy, a game engine is the substructure of a game
a game engine is a tool, UE5 can be used to make movies
So what? The reality is that the vast majority of game devs just use the engine that has been chosen for the project without knowing any internals.
When you develop a game you usually work with the internals of the game engine
The most popular game engines are unity and unreal. How many of those devs do you think change the engine code?
Unity is a walled garden game engine. Not actually the most common type of game engine. Most game engines are like Unreal (or at least past versions of Unreal) where you work with the source code of the engine
>If the game is poorly optimized it’s often a symptom of the underlying engine.
no, not necessarily
>If the game is poorly optimized it’s often a symptom of the underlying engine.
Usually not, actually. It's typically because of gamedevs doing something retarded, like Callisto Protocol devs configuring the game to only compile shaders the first time the user's installation required them, leading to ingame stutter. Not an engine problem, just a "retarded devs picking the wrong settings" problem.
Back in the day maybe but not anymore.
No, it has nothing to do with engine. Gamedevs aka diversity hires use those building blocks software to replace code written by hand. You get exactly what you expect - an unoptimized turd, a heap of template-generated code that is as close to optimization as elites are close to being normal humans. Modern games suck for this very reason, they are full of people unfamiliar with coding and struggling to understand basic coding aspects.
Look at Atomic Heart, their huge success is mainly due to their dev team being white males only. They took a huge risk and couldn't afford themselves "diversity" for brownie points.
Modern games don't suck because they're poorly optimized
They suck for many reasons and running like shit is one of them. This also leads to bugs in parts of the game tied to frames.
They don't run like shit, generally, games are pretty well optimized
There's one reason modern games suck, because they're safe, they cost a lot of money to make so they only make things they know will be successful
>games are pretty well optimized
least delusional zoomer
>games are pretty well optimized
>Games are as optimized as they always were
Atomic Heart is every bit as jank and generic as american games if not more so. I'm not even sure what point you thought you were making here. Atomic Heart did well because of robot titties and the politics surrounding ukraine-russia, which gave it a boost in awareness when ukrainians demanded it be banned. Has nothing to do with the quality of the game.
Atomic Heart runs on my ryzen integrated graphics, I only don't have VRAM necessary to play it. Just having titties is not enough to outperform all of the AAA turds on the game market. And that is a game coming from indie company.
You are clueless. Oh, may be you are going to tell me nobody complained about Cyberpunk performance. Or any other Ubisoft turds performance. Just because you own a decent video card does not mean they are well optimized. They launch with horrible performance - driver developers optimize their video cards to the game, not the other way around, and that's how you end up with higher framerates.
>Atomic Heart runs on my ryzen integrated graphics
pretty much all games can run on iGPUs, that's not saying much. The steam deck basically relies on that fact to claim it can play pretty much any game in existence.
You are a braindead consumer complaining that a few games don't run aswell as they could, completely oblivious to the bigger picture
A few games because I provide few examples so you could understand what I'm talking about. You tell me "generally" those games are optimized, this is not true. Again, driver developers "generally" optimize the games, they themselves are not optimized. This is why you get so many AMD/Nvidia driver updates. Go read their update logs and see how they target very specific titles to optimize, you clueless fucker.
Indie games are optimized? Yeah, may be. Games coming from a big corpo all run like shit with little exceptions.
I didn't say anything about those games. Generally, games run well for what they do. They are efficient. They put amazing graphics on screen, they're full of decades worth of R&D into optimizaiton, and it actually works. You might find some games which are broken like Cyberpunk or perhaps don't run aswell as they should, that doesn't mean that overall games aren't very well optimized pieces of software, because they are
That's what I mean. Game engine provides all means for the game to be optimized. Modern gamedevs shit on the years of progress and dismiss all the means.
You may see a game that runs 100fps on your hardware, it could easily be 300fps or 500fps. If you are going to deny the practice of modern developers to prioritize abstractions and templates over performance, you are oblivious to the current sad state of software and gaming industry.
>If you are going to deny the practice of modern developers to prioritize abstractions and templates over performance, you are oblivious to the current sad state of software and gaming industry.
as a software developer, yes
>You may see a game that runs 100fps on your hardware, it could easily be 300fps or 500fps
Nope, no AAA game has margins anywhere near that large. They do not "shit on years of progress"
Poor performance in AAA games is pretty much always down to mismanagement and not programmer incompetence
"Mismanagement" as in you have one competent developer and a handful of people who have no clue what they are doing as they've got there because of linkedin connections and excessive lying about their skills.
inb4 it's not an issue
>"Mismanagement" as in you have one competent developer and a handful of people who have no clue what they are doing
Mismanagement as in all the people actually doing the work know what they're doing, but the people actually organizing the project do not
Unity and Unreal games are the ones that have a reputation for being slow and bloated.
>Game devs make games in engines
>Blaming the tool for poor performance
Do game devs really?
the gui is laggy in some modern games because it's a web browser embedded into the game because the ui devs are web devs. Blame ui devs for being web devs retards who can't use anything except web tech.
Do you know that even ps2 style graphics would run like shit on modern hardware if you let non game devs make games?
The fact that you can run robust real time physics simulation at all is a testament to just how wrong you are
it comes from KSP1. KSP2 has everything laid off for them and despite that it has less features and worse performance.
You're describing modern games made in the last 10 years. Up until the 2010's games were always highly optimized. Once diversity hiring became a thing that all ended and game programming became practically the same thing as web programming.
What a fucking retarded, ignorant opinion
Games are as optimized as they always were
Some are optimized well, some aren't
Retarded take because that period in particular was dominated by awful console ports that can't run on anything to this day.
I remember many games lagging on consoles back in the SNES/PS1 era.
Either you are dishonest or have no idea wtf you talking about.
>I remember many games lagging on consoles back in the SNES/PS1 era.
Arguably that's extremely limited hardware. I wonder how modern clean code software practices would translate to games on these platforms - could you pull of a pong with something that?
What's your point? Seriously.
That old software run faster on newer hardware?
Why are you constraining pong to be created using clean code running on atari hardware? What is your point?
>I remember many games lagging on consoles back in the SNES/PS1 era.
Yeah and do you have any idea how optimized those programs had to be to even run on that limited hardware? You had to program for the specific set of features provided by the console or your game would be unplayable.
Optimized to who? Games like donkey country still lagged on some parts,
>Optimized to who?
Objectively, by what the term optimized actually means.
Donkey Kong country was optimized to run on the SNES (which was 4-year old hardware at the time of release, which was massive in those days). DKC use of pre-rendered 3D graphics, for example, required extreme optimization to even work on such limited hardware. A simple review of the Wikipedia page includes quotes like this:
> The ACM process pushed the SNES hardware to its limits;
> A single SGI screen took up more memory than an entire SNES cartridge, and Gregg Mayles described transferring the backgrounds into the game by splitting them into tiles as "the bane of the project"
Yeah and it run like ass on some parts. Again you call software that is working today but is slow as unoptimized and software that run on SNES and was equivalent slow as optimized.
So what's your point?
>you call software that is working today but is slow as unoptimized and software that run on SNES and was equivalent slow as optimized.
First of all, it's not equivalent. Most SNES games run at 60fps with minimal slowdowns.
And yes, I'm saying that. Optimized doesn't mean what you think it means. You seem to think "optimized" means "runs fast" and "unoptimized" means "doesn't run fast." That's wrong and stupid. Optimized means a program that has been carefully designed to maximize performance.
The SNES had 1 CPU that ran at 3.5 megahertz, 128K of RAM, and some specialized graphics/audio hardware (including 64K of video/audio).
My desktop machine has 6 cores at 3.7 gigaherts, 32GB of ram (plus another 8 gig on the GPU).
That's an insane difference given that DKC is still a fun and engaging game by modern standards.
>As an extreme poorfag
>good at optimizing
but in reality they are the real midwits
>have more money than you will ever have
>have more achievements than you will ever have
>recognized in their own narrow field
>anonymous smelly NEET nerd on Chinese basketweaving forum calls them midwit
Gamedev was meant to be made by Chads
Who the fuck cares about Jonathan Blow, he never produced anything decent yet talks about everything like he's an expert, what a retard.
He's only done two puzzle platformers; one which was when the indie movement in games took off and he cashed in. Second was worse than similar titles (Portal, Talos principal) both in technical regards and gameplay. Brainless chuds bought into Blow's hype when he just shipped a walking simulator where you walk to solve daily sudoku.
He spends more time talking shit on Twitter than making games, and somehow that adds value according to the current social norms.
>Brainless chuds bought into Blow's hype when he just shipped a walking simulator where you walk to solve daily sudoku.
You missed the whole point of the game, didn't you?
what was the point of the game
to find the perspective puzzles?
Honestly, if I explained it here I'd probably just get called names, so I won't bother, but it's deeper than that. There are plenty of videos of Blow himself explaining it. In short it's about understanding the language and noticing the patterns in the world. There's so much detail everywhere that's easy to miss if you don't slow down and take a good look around you. But I understand that on the surface, Portal and Talos can look like much more interesting games, and they are great, but this thing is special, at least to me.
Also, since at this point I will be called pretentious for sure, let me go all the way and shill this other guy some more:
Jon Blow won't tell anyone what the supposed meaning of the game is
If I know anything about him I guess the meaning of the game is to notice what's really there instead of what you've trained yourself to see, or something along those lines. Which I suppose the game does a good job of, you'll go through the game subconciously noticing the hidden puzzles all over the world, and when you actually click them that might be a cool moment for you, but that's just one moment. Walking around the entire game world finding all of those puzzles isn't fun, even if there's some very clever ones
Chris Crawford is a delusional idiot and the game he spent like 30 years working on is a complete joke
This is blow's greatest accomplishment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F11UGNm6qfc
>>>LULZ until hiro finally starts enforcing Global Rule 2.
sorry your thousandth rust shill thread got pushed off the catalog sister
Blow looks like a fucking hippie
Casey has never made a game engine
Jon Blow has made two games he could have easily made in Unity
>Casey has never made a game engine
What engine does handmade hero use?
handmade hero isn't finished
Which engine does the unfinished version use?
If your engine is incomplete you haven't "made a game engine"
not always but some gamedevs really do push hardware as far as it can go. these days it's all pozzed companies shutting out unreal engine unfinished crap
Reminds me of that old saying about google: "many of the best minds in programming are working on serving you ads."
But this time with LULZ shit.
This blows my mind too. Imagine being 50+ and still working on making video games lol
Is working in advertising better?
you can work for Yandex and literal linguistic professors find a way not to associate putin with gay
hit a sore spot?
Lots of experienced programmers get into making games for their kids. Blow doesn't have kids but he's also an idealist who has some good ideas about the potential for games to be used for education:
Yeah I know. How cool would that be.
how can microsoft even recover
Microsoft is well. Doubt they care.
No one writes OpenGL code like that anymore tho.
The modern OpenGL is even more convoluted than D3D.
From what? D3D won.
This is very cool and makes me feel bad for being a mathlet.
I'm so fucking dumb
Is this guy seriously using SDFs instead of polygons because he can't figure out how to animate triangles properly
blender had a precursor to this a long time ago, metaballs- but SDF (signed distance fields) is running metaballs on the gpu for more speed. Looks really organic compared to polygons when rendered out to pixels.
It's just one of those areas where more optimization is just better. If you can squeeze out more performance you'll try to do it.
you'll never hear the two am-egos talk like this
what did guy on the left do? spent 10+ years on unfinished game
and guy on right? made super mario with a twist
they are BTFOing themselves
is carmack swole fr
ONE OF THESE GUYS IS NOT LIKE THE OTHER
>Why are game engine devs always such moggers?
Have anyone of those actually written a "game engine"?
I have always thought that they're "get the fucking job done in the quickest possible time, be performant and be simple to understand". Writing a game engine are none of these things.
john carmack has
Which one? You talking about DOOM or Quake? You can only make "DOOM" and "Quake" style games. You can't make a 2D platformer with any of those. So technically, I wouldn't regard the DOOM or Quake software systems an "game engine" as such.
the doom and quake engines were pretty much the first things to be called game engines
because you could make different games by swapping out the data, and he licensed the engines of these games so people could do that
>the doom and quake engines were pretty much the first things to be called game engines
My definiton of "game engine" is simply a software system that enables you to create "any" type of game.
But isn't that the purpose of an "engine"?
Your definition of game engine is something you made up and isn't related to reality
>they can’t make 2D platformers, so they aren’t game engines
>has autistic fit on youtube
>can't finish a game
why is every thread about Blow full of peanut gallery NEETs whose greatest accomplishments in life are wiping their asses completely clean calling them hacks and midwits, and why is it such good entertainment?
That's right fatass. I mean, here you are, in your hawaiian shirt with decades of "gamedev" experience, multiple AAA titles to you name, literally hundreds of millions of dollars in the bank. At least 14 nubile teens bouncing off of my 12" dick, I also live in a 27 bedroom mansion and my 12 antique cars, but only drive a bugatti veyron.
Then you wake up right, fatman.
Casey Muratori and Jonathan Blow have never worked on anything notable. At least Carmack was working on relatively new tech in his hayday, and not shit that had hundreds of books written on the subject. About the guy who wrote Spark engine? Unknown Worlds had a guy who created the first functional version of the Spark engine in weeks by himself when they were developing Natural Selection 2. Meanwhile where's Blow's engine?
Carmack didn't do anything notable except being in the right place at the right time. It's easy to innovate and come up with groundbreaking shit when you're entering a new industry that hasn't been around for long. Good fucking luck doing that today.
>Good fucking luck doing that today.
I don't think Carmack/Romero and everyone else at ID actually planned it like it went tho. Did they know that what they were doing was going to do what it did to the game industry? Doubtful.
It is indeed, all about luck in the end.
Or may be, just may be, the world is not about black&white, is not about good&evil. May be it's not only luck but also a skill and ability to navigate in unknown circumstances. May be it's also about the ability to communicate in the right way. May be it's a lot of things mixed and they all matter.
Bitter fuckers always justify themselves being complete losers by "if I were born in right time everything would be different". There is a lot of "right time" moments even today, but you remain incompetent fat or skinny fucks with no skill so it does not matter, these moments are an impenetrable wall that you can't break.
>you remain incompetent fat or skinny fucks with no skill so it does not matter,
You're right. We all are, including you.
What's your excuse for not revolutionizing videogames right now and becoming rich and famous? There's plenty of opportunities after all.
Are videogames the only way of becoming rich and famous? So everyone must be a gamedev? Oh, he said not ONLY luck, so that means he said "it's not luck".
How do you guys manage to function in the society when you are able to take everything only literally and must immediately categorize it as being black OR white? When your head is so small and narrow. Honest question.
So you're admitting that Carmack was just in the right place at the right time and it's almost impossible to replicate his success in game dev today.
Nobody will be wildly successful by creating technology for games, that age is over
People will be wildly successful by creating games, Notch for example
>Nobody will be wildly successful by creating technology for games, that age is over
Eh, never say never. But it probably won't be what you expect.
Until technology changes in a way thats unforeseen, not going to happen
and no, VR isn't it, neither is AI
>no, VR isn't it, neither is AI
This is right. But we're in a state of bloat right now and the innovation is likely to come from a state of simplicity. Minecraft (which is over a decade old at this point) was a game focused on simple, fun gameplay and interactive worlds at a time when the industry was becoming increasingly stultified and predictable. (Note that Demon's Souls was a sleeper hit around the same time for being a game that was actually not afraid to take off the guardrails).
Today, Minecraft probably would not have been so wildly successful, because the "indie scene" has exploded thanks to accessible development tools and publishing platforms (and in no small part thanks to Minecraft itself).
But consider something like like Raylib. It's a simple, traditional library for making games that cuts away all the bloat. No object orientation, no entity-component systems, just a simple, straightforward C API for graphics and sound. It's become very popular.
And I'm not saying Raylib is the next big thing, just that it's likely to be something like that. Something that challenges the existing assumptions and delivers something simpler and superior to the current norm.
We're talking about technological innovation. Making gamedev simplier isn't a technological innovation. And gamedev isn't particularly bloated in the first place. Bloated designwise, at least in the AAA sphere, the technology itself is isn't. What would trying to simplify things achieve?
Minecraft would be wildly successful no matter when it was released. It has no overlap with indie games, it's a worldwide phenomenon
>Minecraft would be wildly successful no matter when it was released.
No, it would not have been the same.
It didn't necessarily have to be that exact year, industry conditions are the important part and Minecraft itself changed the industry. But if it hadn't been Minecraft it would have been something else.
He was in right place AND had the right skills. That he had put effort into. In fact, many years of his life, working hard to achieve what he did. Since you say his only success is due to luck and he has no personal achievement.
Seems like it's a bit hard for you to understand. Do you have any intellectual issues?
So you're admitting that it's almost impossible to replicate his success in game dev today.
Notch was a bigger success than Carmack was
If Jonathan Blow playing a part in the rise of indie gaming isn't "notable", then Notch stealing someone else's videogame isn't either.
what the fuck are you talking about? Didn't you say "success"?
Here's the argument: >
Braid was one of the first mainstream indie games but the game itself wasnt that notable or successful
>but the game itself wasnt that notable or successful
It's extremely famous.
It's a little bit famous, extremely, no
Braid and The Witness are objectively notable.
I think you don't know what the word "notable" means.
You mean riding a wave that started years before Braid's release? Fucking gmod came out before Braid
>A documentary about nothing notable
LULZ tards always bitter
Blow is a hack. He's more invested in schizoposting about vaccines and Ukraine on Twitter than in finishing and releasing Jai.
>schizoposting about vaccines and Ukraine on Twitter
Got any screen dumps? Asking for a friend.
Just go through his Twitter history. He can't go a week without posting something about it.
>he posts about current news once per week, he's so obsessed!
Sounds like you got triggered by something he said.
>can't go a week without == occurs once per week
It's been two years since the vaccine rollout. The only people that even think about it anymore are schizos who think the mass die-off is still coming somehow.
>Sounds like you got triggered by something he said.
I pay attention to Johnny for his technology-related spergouts, which are very entertaining. Him talking about politics is only "triggering" in the sense that it's very boring and so I'm disappointed when I see it instead of software memes.
Sure thing Moishe. Everyone must forget about old psyop and discuss the new psyop. Only current thing discussions are allowed. If you discuss the old psyop and its origins just exactly at the time when censorship on it weakens and slides down, you must be a schizo. Oy vey.
Two more weeks until the die-off, fr fr this time no cap.
If you bring up things to the topic no one ever mentioned may be you are the schizo here trying hard in projecting. Touch grass, it helps.
You mean like how you brought up the israelites for literally no reason?
>but what about
oy vey, the goyim knows. Shut it down!
Mindbroken bot lul
Done "talking" to you.
You are a literal NPC who can only think of some weird "die-offs" when vaccines get mentioned. You were never able to talk. You are a toy and we only talk to you to get lulz from the robot trying to come up with an argument as to why he's makes things up when nobody ever mentioned them. This is your fate.
>Gamedevs will be the reason for the downfall of rust and rustroons
friendly reminder that game ENGINE devs aren't the same as game "devs". the former are chads that build shit that runs smoothly while the latter are thinly veiled political activists that barely passed CS 101 in college
Blow's game doesn't even run at 120fps when you look at anything not in the immediate vicinity. It also has extremely simple mechanics and despite this uses a considerable amount of CPU. That game could and has been remade in another form with an off the shelf game engine and it runs better, lol.
I thought the same thing
Retard. Games get optimized at the stage of their completion. No one spends weeks optimizing the code that will end up rewritten. Have you ever tried to develop a game? This board has absolute troglodytes.
>Games get optimized at the stage of their completion.
games get optimized at every point in production
Your answer makes no sense.
Another captured Rust troon. Stop posting him.
>haven't implemented even a medium sized application in it
Not exactly a ringing endorsement.
carmack is just an enthusiast. Any would give the language a proper try to form their own opinion.
>— REEE your software is slow! stop writing slow software!
>— write fast software
what are you even trying to say?
I guess in your native language it might make sense but in English it doesn't