A Clockwork Orange

>Rapists deserve to be happy and forgiven too
The hell is wrong with this book?

  1. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    I'm pretty sure that's not what the book means

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      and you'd be wrong. The book attempts to say "We shouldn't attempt to control people into being good and should let them grow out of bad behavior at their own pace" and I mean... The actions Alex indulges in are habitual criminal behavior, violent and sexual felonies. It's not harmless teenage rebellion. Anthony Burgess just didn't think it through.

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        >and you'd be wrong
        I'm pretty sure I wouldn't

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        everyone is capable of change. if someone has sincerely changed and can help make the world less shitty going forward, then forgiveness is for anyone.

        try reading the book. the last chapter is alex coming to terms with being an absolute shit and wanting to be better. it was kinda weak and shoehorned in, but it was the message nonetheless. i think burgess did think it through, he just did a weak job of resolving the end in a way that wasn't forced.

        • 3 months ago
          Anonymous

          I, although it came off more like Alex was just bored and disillusioned with degeneracy and wanted something more meaningful out of life. The last chapter could've made for an entire story in itself to make the transition more organic.

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        I interpreted the ending as bitterly ironic, and most agree with this poster: (

        It's not meant to be taken that literally. It's just generally about society trying to control youth and shape it into what's convenient for society. Alex is an arguement ad absurdum where even with him its wrong to treat him as software to be forcefully rewritten. The ending isn't saying "its okay to be a rapist if you stop". It's just generally saying "you don't need to try and dominate the souls of the youth in a moral panic, they'll generally mellow out and come to terms with the world in their own time".

        It's further underscored by the fact that there being roving packs of teenage rapists in a dilapidated country is probably the result of shitty governance by the same state that thinks they have a right to control individuals like this, punishing them without ever being punished themselves for creating these conditions. There's a very similar thing going on in the Battle Royale movie for another example-adults pushing 100 percent of the blame on children for being products of the failed world controlled and staffed entirely by the adults.

        ) I'd personally emphasise however that I found it about the paradox of free will, that at once everyone should be held accountable for their crimes but on the other side that accountability is a fiction that we absurdly ascribe to others so as to give concepts like guilt, retribution and justice meaning. To treat Alex as a teenager as if he doesn't have autonomy is dehumanising and cruel, but to treat him as if he does have autonomy is an overestimation of his psychology. It's the "clockwork orange" in the title, free will appears both organic and mechanical and there's no way to resolve the dilemma, which is why the ending is unsatisfying but brilliant because of that.

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      it was about MK Ultra numbnuts

  2. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    Is the film any good?

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      Yes

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      Their participation in space jam is underrated

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      The film is better.
      >inb4 muh chapter 21
      kys and your generic homosexual ending.

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      His wife was gang banged by AWOL GIs during the second world war. It's satire, albeit quite black at times.

      >Yes
      Giga Chad Kubrick tossed out the appended 'final chapter' with Alex's redemption.

      and you'd be wrong. The book attempts to say "We shouldn't attempt to control people into being good and should let them grow out of bad behavior at their own pace" and I mean... The actions Alex indulges in are habitual criminal behavior, violent and sexual felonies. It's not harmless teenage rebellion. Anthony Burgess just didn't think it through.

      >Your dystopic society and civilization is in a bad way when the only real exercise of free will is barbaric predatory hedonism, if only because it makes bougies going along to get along with the program that much more contemptible even deserving

      you're looking at the wrong point
      it's more of rehabilitating criminals and some deserve a second chance is all

      The 'good' ending is the equivalent of taking a free ranging bengal tiger and putting it in a zoo. His 'rehabilitation' backstops the regime's 'Oedipal libidinal economy'. Film Alex isn't cured so much as inducted into a higher form exactly what he was doing before just in politics/entertainment now

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        >His wife was gang banged by AWOL GIs during the second world war.It's satire, albeit quite black at times.
        this, the author character who is forced to witness it is a complete self insert

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        >Giga Chad Kubrick tossed out the appended 'final chapter' with Alex's redemption.
        No, he didn't. The American version of the book, which is what Kubrick had access to, was altered for the sake of censorship. Kubrick regretted diverging from the original but eventually came to terms with it.

        • 3 months ago
          Anonymous

          >was altered for the sake of censorship
          Not true. It's the safest ending ever. The American version has a more ballsy ending. The fact is that the 21st chapter was added later to the UK editions because the editor asked the author to write it. There was no censorship. There wasn't even anything worth censoring.

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      It's awesome

  3. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    reminder that the final chapter was forced into the book by the publisher because they thought an unhappy ending would hurt sales.

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      I heard it was the other way around and the publisher removed the final chapter because they thought it was gay

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      >an unhappy ending would hurt sales
      How would they have read it without first buying? Silly publisher.

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      It's the exact opposite, retard. The final chapter was removed from North American versions of the book because the publishers and American public were retarded enough to think the book is better without it because all they see is either a happy or unhappy ending.

  4. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    why so hesitant to slurp a didactic sentiment out of it?

  5. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    best book
    &
    best movie ever
    that is all, enjoy your day

  6. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    Well he did get raped at the end so that was a bit of justice

  7. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    you're looking at the wrong point
    it's more of rehabilitating criminals and some deserve a second chance is all

  8. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    It's about rejecting grace and instead trying to fix man by treating him as a machine which can be reprogrammed. The point isn't that we shouldn't punish criminals but that we shouldn't presume to be able to install goodness into them through clever technological tricks.
    >deserve to be forgiven
    No one deserves to be forgiven. Forgiveness is a different concept than justice.

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      Yes. At the time the book was written and published, conductism was a big trend in psychology and concurrently, there was a trend in the prision system to switch from the old punishment based to a more modern rehabilitation system. Conductism was considered as a tool for this purpose.
      Burgess' premise was that the system's violence exerted over the individual trhough conductist meassures to supress free will was more opressive and cruel than the violence petty criminals might exert against society. And it is also very unchristian since it negates the free will that God gave to man.

  9. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    >The hell is wrong with this book?
    The message of the book is that you can not obtain morality through authoritarianism because the same authority figures would discard those principles the second it become politically convenient

  10. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    It's not meant to be taken that literally. It's just generally about society trying to control youth and shape it into what's convenient for society. Alex is an arguement ad absurdum where even with him its wrong to treat him as software to be forcefully rewritten. The ending isn't saying "its okay to be a rapist if you stop". It's just generally saying "you don't need to try and dominate the souls of the youth in a moral panic, they'll generally mellow out and come to terms with the world in their own time".

    It's further underscored by the fact that there being roving packs of teenage rapists in a dilapidated country is probably the result of shitty governance by the same state that thinks they have a right to control individuals like this, punishing them without ever being punished themselves for creating these conditions. There's a very similar thing going on in the Battle Royale movie for another example-adults pushing 100 percent of the blame on children for being products of the failed world controlled and staffed entirely by the adults.

  11. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    >The hell is wrong with this book?
    Eleutheromania.

  12. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    Kubrick once again unironically improved on the source material.

  13. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    I'm pretty sure that's not what the book means

  14. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    I'm pretty sure that's not what the book means

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